05-02-1963 - Special
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SPECIAL NEETING OF THE CITY
COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF EDGEWATER,
FLORIDA HELD HAY 2ND, 1963
The Special Meeting of the City Council of the City of Edgewater,
Florida held }fuy 2nd, 1963 was called to order by }~yor A. Hussey
at 7:42 P.}1.
ROLL CALL
Mayor A. Hussey
Councilman Carl A. Siller
Councilman Stanley A. Seng, Sr.
Councilman Henry R. Palmateer
Councilman Harry S. Drury, Jr.
City Attorney Louis Ossinsky, Sr.
Police Chief John Deibler
City Clerk Kathryn B. O'Connell
Deputy City Clerk Marie E. Robinson
Fire Chief C. Fred Garlick
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
The Meeting was called for the purpose of deciding on the following:
1. Zoning
2. Charter
3. T:::,affic Light
4. Truck Crane .lith Equipment
OLD BUSINESS
Councilman Palmateer: ttAt a previous meeting lve decided that the Council
would not take responsibility for the charter.1f He asked if there were
any way ammendments could be made.
Attorney Ossinsky said that there was. The Charter is dral~ along the
lines the Council has instructed on the worksheets presented to me. This
Charter is now prepared consisting of approximately 160 pages. Some
changes can be made to this extent: There must be an established draft
to vlOrk tovlard. Anything beyond that means a redraft. Some things can be
modified or changed. It was drafted pursuant to the Council's requests.
There was no referendum vote. It could only become law by passing both
houses of the Legislature, Senate & House, and be submitted to the Governor.
It could become law ldthout his signature. The last page of the Charter
could be redrafted. I have draft here. There are two types of referendum.
1. Straight referendum - Submitted at Special or
General Election.
2. Have a referendum, on petition of 25% of the
registered voters.
Councilman Palmateer questioned as to whether the zoning could be changed
to what was recommended by the Council.
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Attorney Ossinsky said that the zoning was part of the Charter. He said
that you ldll recall that at the meeting of February 21, 1963 (read minutes)
zoning was discussed. He said that there was some discussion that the
zones were out of proportion. Recheck was made. A modification of the
'zoning was made to make..it more equal. That was given to l-1r. Talley
.... and came back to me and was embodied in the Charter. You can change the
zones but that would requite a redraft from }~. Talley. If and when
this Charter is passed there is a provision in it that this Council can
ammend respective zones from time to time. In a year or so, one zone
may double in population.
Attorney Ossinsky read the second proposal, as it is in the Charter, on
the zoning.
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Councilman Palmateer: In this Charter there is no salary for the
City Attorney. I think it should be in there.
Attorney Ossinsky: It would be unusual to do that. Council usually
determines it.
Councilman Palmateer: Does it mention salary in the Old Charter?
Attorney Ossinsky: No it does not. That is never done in Charter.
Attorney does not run for office. He is hired at the pleasure of the
Council.
Councilman Palmateer: Is it possible to make changes in the zoning
and not stick to the four zones? Could we make five zones?
Attorney Ossinsky: The proposal as set up calls for four zones. Four
councilmen and the ~~or running at large. If you had five zones it
would be necessary to have a complete change. It would be necessary
to do this at a later date and send it back to the Legislature.
Councilman Drury: Can ..Ie settle things as they come up instead of
getting nothing cone?
Councilman Siller: It seems to me that the Council is in the dark.
The Charter is too big a thing. Some w~~t zones changed and some don't.
He stated that some will lose a complete zone. He said Civil SerVice
would be an additional expense to the Gity of $10,000 a year. The
taxpayers will have to pay more millage.
Motion duly ~ade by Councilman Siller the Charter not be sent to Tallahassee
at this session of the Legislature as the Council has not had time to go
over it, seconded by Councilman Seng. Roll call vote being as follows:-
Councilman Siller
Cluncilman Seng
Councilman Palmateer
Councilman Drury
Nayor Hussey
Yea
Yea
Nay
Nay
Nay
Councilwan Palmateer: The Charter is too serious a thing for the
community to throw it away. It should be corrected. Changes were made
in the zoning and not under the authority of the Council.
Councilman Drury: vIe can make changes at any time.
Councilman Siller: This is a serious thing. vJhy should we sent a
thing like this to Tallahassee and we don't knovl what:".is in it. I read
it over the weekend and sill do not completely understand it. ,
Nat Bro..m: Any layman who thinks he can v/rite a better charter then
the Attorney doesn't know what he is saying. The people should have
a chance to get what they want. \Ve should work and try to do good for
the Community.
Councilman Siller: It is a wonderfully well written piece of l'lOrk. 'I'le
could understand the last charter but we can't understand this one.
Nat Brown said that the last Charter ..las wade by an attorney ..Tho thought
this City would be absorbed by New Smyrna Beach. Never before have we had
an lttorney "/ho wasn't working for Nel'l Smyrna Beach. They tried to keep
this City down. Just three weeks ago one of the politicians in New
Smyrna Beach talked to me about consolidation of the two cities.
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Councilman Siller: Previous attorneys drew up charter we could
understand. I don't think I will ever understand this one.
Nat Brovm: Fred Brannon said 90% of previous charter ..las not enforceable.
Councilman Siller: Nat Brown previously mentioned something about all of
us working for the good of the whole city. One gentleman is losing 40
votes in his zone and wants the zones changed.
Nat Brown; I brought 30 more families into the zone.
Councilman Siller: You are influencing votes.
Nat Brown: There is alliays going to be changes in the size of zones.
Councilman Siller: v~ does he Vlant it changed? He is losing 40 votes,
as he previously stated.
Councilman Palmateer: I never said that.
Councilman Siller: I am losing I!\Y" whole zone.
Councilman Palmateer: If changes are made in the zorling as recommended
by the Council I vull move for adoption of the charter.
Councilman Seng: That is getting a little 'personal.
Councilman Palmateer: Charter should be cha.l1ged to comply with
Council's recommendations.
Councilman Palw4teer read from the notes of February 21, 1963 concerning
the zoning.
Councilman Drury read the number in each zone and he said that it was not
equal.
1>Irs. Robert MaA"Well said that~_if the Council passed the first plan for
zoning they would be vrorse off then they were before.
~Ir. Joseph Blauvelt asked what l~. Palmateers objection to the new
zoning, as it is in the Charter,
Councilman Palmateer: It does not go along with the recommendations of
the Council.
ViI's. Vivian Oyler asked where the zoning leaves her. Is she in the City?
Attorney Ossinsky: No matter what zoning was passed she would be in the
City. The zoning goes east and west straight through to the River.
Nat Brmm: vIe should try and have a fair distribution of voters.
Councilman Siller: I don't understand what is in the Charter.
William Piser said the people knew 1~at was in the Charter.
Nat Brown: There is an enabling act in the Charter. He told the council
not to set the City back blO more years.
Councilman Siller: I want to be able to face the people when this I Charter
goes through.
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Councilman Seng: vie don't have to take this harassment. No one has
me on a string. There are some bad things in the Charter. I 'Vlould
go along with it if the Civil Service was taken out of the Charter and
a referendum added for the people to vote on it.
}~. Piser asked about the Civil Service.
Councilman Siller: Civil Service would cost the City a great deal of
money. Under this Charter each city employee would be permitted 15 days
sick leave and other things that the City is not big enough to handle.
If we were large enough I would be for it. You have to have higher
taxes if you have this Civil Service. This Civil Service is stated
right in the Charter.
Police Chief Deibler said he had worked 20 years under Civil Service.
I can't see how it will cost $10,000. He said he didn't knO'Vl how it
would cost anything.
Councilman Siller asked }~. Deibler if the City he worked for that had
Civil Service ,~s larger then ours.
}~. Deibler said it was.
Councilman Siller: Temporary employees, Fire Chief and a few others
are exempt from the Civil Service. ~fuy isn't the Police Chief?
IvIr. Deibler: Police Chief could be removed by Council at any time.
Councilwan Palmateer: The material I read from, concerning the zones
was a recolT'mendation made by the Chamber of Commerce. \
Councilman Seng: vlith the exception of the Civil Service and tacking
on referendum he would vote Charter to go to Tallahassee.
Hrs. Oyler asked where Councilman Drury..:stood on the Charter.
Councilman Drury: Personally I wasn't in favor of the new Charter. He
said he didn't know too much about Civil Service.
Attorney Ossins10J: There is no "lay of knmdng hm'l the zones 1-nll be
a y~ar from today or two years from toda::l. He said the Council could
change the zones. Civil Service could be eliminated at the discretion
of the Council.
Attorney Ossinsky explained three 'VlaYS charter could become law.
1. Put outffor publication as it was
2. Approval or Disapproval of Governor. Could
pass vdthout his signature.
3. There are two types of Referendum.
al Compulsion at a Special Election
bl It will go through unless there
is a petition of 25% of the registered
voters to call for an election on the
charter.
Councilman Seng: I am for the people voting for or against the Charter.
Councilman Siller: If the Charter goes through with Civil Service could
it be eliminated by the Council?
Attorney Ossinsky: Council 'VlOuld have to have it for tvlO years. Until
the next session of the Legislature.
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After Councilman Drury suggested a motion to pass the charter without
a referendum, Councilman Siller said they unanimously voted at a previous
meeting to attach a referendum. He asked why Councilman Drury changed his
mind.
Councilman Drury said that Councilman Siller had said it wasn't a legal
meeting.
Councilman Siller said he didn't say that.
Councilman Drury asked if we had time for a referendum.
Attorney Ossinsky:
by first of June.
July 15, 1963.
We will be lucky to get this out of Legislature
We could not set up referendum vote earlier then
Councilman Seng:
The People should have a chance to vote on it.
l~. Schwarter said that some people may object to some of it. People
should vote on it.
Nat Brown: No hlO people think alike about things like this.
ATl'ORNEY Ossinsky again gave the steps.
1. Go to Legislature
2. Goes to Governor ;to approve. Can be passed ~~thout
his signature.
Mr. Schwarter asked if you can vote on certain things in the Charter or must
you vote for the Charter in entirety.
Councilman Siller: It would be a vote on the entire charter.
l~s. Hennig said some things in the Charter are ver'J good. The people should
Y~Ow l~at they are voting for.
Councilman Seng: Copies of the CharteFwill be put in public places for the
public to read.
~~. Dana Armstrong asked about the petition for the referendum vote and asked
where it must be signed and before whom.
Attorney Ossinsky said the vote l'lould be around July 1 to 15 and must be
circulated by an elector of the City. He would have to check the scheduling
to see the exact time.
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Motion duly made by Councilman Drury that the Charter be sent to Tallahassee
~~th a proVlslon, as recommended by the Attorney, that if 25% of the
registered voters sign a petitbon for a vote at a Special Election, such an
election be held, seconded by Councilman Palmateer and by vote CARRIED.
Roll call vote being as follows:-
Councilman Siller
Councilman Seng
Councilman Falmateer
Councilman Drury
l-1a.yor Hussey
Yea
Yea
Yea
Yea
Yea
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RESOI1JTION
A RESOI1JTION REQUESTING THE HONORABLE E.W. GAUTIER, SENATOR FROl1
VOLUSIA COUNTY, FLORIDA; AND THE HONORABLE JAN8S H. SvJEENY, JR.,
AND THE HONORABlE FREDRICK B. KARL, REPRESENTATIVE FROl-f VOI1JSIA
COUNTY, FLORIDA, TO PRFSENT TO THE 1963 LEGISLATURE FOR PASSAGE, A
NEI'I CP..ARTER FOR THE CITY OF EDGEWATER, FLORIDA "loJ!UCH IS ENTITLED: '
trAB ACT TO ABOLISH THE PRESENT HUNICIPAL GOVERNNENT OF THE 'CITY OF
EDGEWATER' IN THE COUNTY OF VOI1JSIA, AND STATE OF FLORIDA; TO PROVIDE
A CHARTER FOR SAID CITY; FIX THE TERRITORIAL LI!v[[TS AND BOUNDARIES;
TO PROVIDE FOR ITS GOVERNMENT AND TO PRESCRIBE ITSc.JJURISDICTION,
POVJERS AND PRIVILEGES; AND PROVIDING IrffiEN THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT.tr
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The above Resolution was read in full by City Clerk Kathryn B. O'Connell
and motion duly made by Councilman Pa~4teer this resolution be adopted
seconded by Councilman Drury and passed by vote of the City Council
of the City of Edgewater, Florida at the Special l1eeting of the
City Council held }~y 2, 1963. Roll call vote being as follows:-
Councilman Siller
Councilman Seng
Co~cilman Palmateer
Co..m cilman Drury
:Hayor Hussey
Yea
Yea
Yea
Yea
Yea
Attorney Ossinsky asked that four copies be signed by the lfayor and Council.
Attorney Ossinsky said that he had been in contact with Hr. Nealy of the
Municipal Code Corporation and he had asked about the Charter. He had asked
that a meeting be set up. I told him I thought it was a little premature
for the meeting as we are working on the Charter.
Concerning the traffic light, Councilman Seng asked if we had a price on
a light.
A letter was read from l~. Boggs concerning the prices for the li;ght.
Motion duly made by Councilman Seng the specifications for the traffic
light be put out for bids, seconded by Councilman Palmateer and by vote
CARRIED. Roll call vote being as follows:-
Councilman Siller
Councilman Seng
Councilman Palmateer
Councilman Drury
Hayor Hussey
Yea
Yea
Yea
Yea
Yea
The w4tter of the dragline came up.
Councilman Siller said he understood that they were going to try and find
out how much it would cost to have the canals cleaned.
Councilman Drury said that the V~or had said that they never could get a
firm price on this.
Councilw4n Seng said it vnll cost $18 an hour to run a dragline. He said
that the full cost vnll be more than $20,000. He thought that if they
got someone to do the work it shouldn't cost more than $3,000. He said
that it cost the County $11,000 to operate the mach~e.
Hayor Hussey said that if you buy a piece of equipment you have it in
years to come.
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Mr. David Wiggins said that the non exempt property in Florida
Shores is worth $1,000,000. Estimate of $17,200 goes to the
City. Give 1/3 for City Government and that leaves $11,000.
You are getting a good percent of the money from the Florida
Shores peop+e. Nothing has been done down there on ~aintenance
or improvements.
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Councilman Seng questioned as to 1",hether we could get::.into the canals
Idth a machine with rubber wheels.
Councilman Siller asked about a letter from the Auditor about the money
for the purchase of this equipment.
Attorney Ossinsky said he had talked with :Hr. Robertson, on the matter
of getting money for the light and the cleaning of the ditches
At first he said he didn't think vle could get dragline on a 10 year
plan. Then he said we could. The first payment would be in January.
It would be about $20,000 and i'Tould come out of next years Budget.
pouncilman Siller said that there are six ~~nths left in this year
and wh~~~o are we going to get the money to operate the machine, It
will cost at least $4,000 to operate the machine in that span of time.
Councilman Seng said he knew a man who would give a set price on cleaning
the ditches, but the l~or said no to the idea.
~or Hussey: I have worked around equipment, for 20 or 25 years. If
we buy this equipment it will be better for the cornnnmity. If we have
seomeone to do the work after the 8 months or whatever time it takes
to do it, 1'le have nothing. We Hould be better off if "fe have the
equipment. If we buy the equipment vfe have somethinG for the City.
Councilman Siller: If 1",e get bids on a contractor coming in don't
you think he will do it as fast as he can? If you think it will take
eight months for a contractor how long idll it take us?
:[I1ayor Hussey: We can use the equipment for other things.
l.fr. Dana Armstrong:
Shores was set up.
in some places. If
any good.
The ditches have been a problem ever since Florida
He said that the culverts have to be made larger
some of the canals vlere dug deeper it vTouldn' t do
Councilman Palmateer: Are those lakes dovm there owned by the Developers
of Florida Shores, I understand that they are. The lakes are growing
up. I don't know'1"ho the canals belong to. Are we obligated to clean
them or is.:Hagnuson obligated to clean them?
~~. Blauvelt said that on,the 125 foot lots the West part of Lot of 25 feet
belongs to the owners of the property, which is the canal. There is also
10 feet on the east side for right of way.
Councilman Seng suggested cleaning the ditches and charge the property owners.
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Mr. Baluvelt said that vie pay through the nose now.
Counci~4ll Seng said he vall admit that.
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Nrs. Robert 1-1a.xwell said to check in County Office about vmo owns
what in Florida Shores. l~s. ~~ell said that ;some of the ditches
were put in after the property ''las bought by the o'mers.
Fir. Dana Armstrong: Hr. Braddock is in the ditch cleaning business.
It is a mosquuto problem. If Nr. Braddock could do some hand ''lork
in the ditches and canals it would make a considerable difference
in the price.
Attorney Ossinsky said he would have to check into it. He said that
there is a law about City keeping up the canals, But if they are ovmed
by the property owners that is a different thing. He said that it would
be necessary to check the records in DeLand~
Vw. Crawford Shaeffer~said that this should be checked on.
Vir. Donald Nason said that the City of Edge,'.ra.ter has a responsibility
and should live up to it.
Motion duly made by Councilman Palmateer we get some estimates on what
the cost would be to get a contractor to clean the ditches, seconded
by Councilman Seng and by vote CARRIED. Roll call vote being as follows:-
Councilman Siller
Councilman Seng
Councilman Palmateer
Councilman Drury
Ma;yor Hussey
Yea
Yea
Yea
Yea
Yea
Motion duly made by Councilman Palmateer that 'VB advertise for bids
on dragline equipment with the right to accept or reject any or all bids,
seconded by Councilman Drury and by vote CARRIED. Roll call vot;e being
as follows:-
Councilman Siller
Councilman Seng
Councilman Palmateer
Councilman Brury
Nayor Hussey
Yea
Yea
Yea
Yea
Yea
}fotion duly made by Councilman Palmateer that the Attorney get in touch
,dth Mr. Talley and find out ''lho owns the ditches and canals in Florida
Shores and if necessary have plats, surveys, and abstracts made if they
are not already made up, seconded by Councilman Drury and by vote CARRIED.
Roll call vote being as follows:-
Councilman Siller
Councilman Seng
Councilman Palmateer
Councilman Drury
Hayor Hussey
Yea
Yea
Yea
Yea
Yea
}Irs. }1axtVBll said that if Magnuson Oims the lakes in Florida Shores, he
should be made to clean them.
Vw. Wiggins asked if the property ovmers' deeds would show ,vhether
ditches are on their propetty.
Attorney Ossinsky said they may.
There bang no further business motion duly made by Councilman Seng we
now adjourn, seconded by Councilman Drury and by vote CARRIED.
~unutes taken by }mrie Robinson.
Time: 10:00 P.M.
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