11-01-1961 - Special
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SPECIAL l~TING OF THE CITY COUNCIL
OF THE CITY OF EDGE1:fATER, VOLUSIA
COUNTY, FLORIDA, HELD NOV. 1, 1961.
A Special Meeting of the City Council of the City of Edgewater, Florida
held November 1st, 1961 was called to order by Mayor Crawford C. .Shaeffer
at 9 :05 A.l.f.
Mayor Shaeffer: I now open this session of the City Council and eve~one
11ill please remain silent. This is not a trial. It is only an investigation
of preferred charges which the Attorney ,v.Lll read. Preferred by the Chief
of Police according to the Charter he has a right to do so. Suspending an
Officer or anyone under his command for reasons which he states. The Councils
will ask the questions the Attorneys will give the answers. The audience will
not participate in this, you are here to listen to what goes on and have no
voice. I will rule you out of order and set you do\~ if you attempt to do so.
Councilman Smith: A question here. I have been on this Council for two years
and in this time the Citizens have not had the right to speak. I think if the
people of the audience have anything to say, they should be allowed to do so.
Mayor Shaeffer: The attorney's have ruled that this is not a trial.
Councilman Smith: Regardless of what the Attorney's say, they are not the City
Council and I think the people are entitled to have their say.
Mayor Shaeffer: The City Attorney has ruled this is the business of the City
Council and that is the way I am going to govern it. If you don't like it, I
can't help it.
Councilman Smith: Regardless of what the Attorney's say, they do not run the
City Council.
l-iayor Shaeffer: I still stand upon what I said.
Councilman Smith: I stand upon the Charter.
Mayor Shaeffer: The Clerk will call the roll.
ROLL CALL
Mayor Crawford C. Shaeffer
Councilman G. V. Beck
Councilman S. A. Seng, Sr.
Councilman R. P. Smith, Sr.
Councilman D. T. Armstrong
City Clerk F. F. Dippery
City Att'y. J. E. Chisholm
Police Chief F. H. Norman
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Mayor Shaeffer: Attorney Chisholm will you please read the letter.
Attorney Chisholm: Gentlemen of the Council, this is a letter dated October
30th, 1961 to John H. Deibler. Effective this date, you are hereby suspended
from duty as a Patrolman of the City of Edgewater, Volusia County, Florida.
This order subject to action of the City Council of the City of Edgewater.
Cause for suspension: Absent from duty, without permission. Signed F. H.
Norman, Chief, Police Department, Edgewater, Volusia County, Florida.
Hayor Shaeffer: Hr. Norman, do you wish to make a statement?
Chief Norman: I do not have any statement except that is the reason for this
suspension.
Mayor Shaeffer: Then we will proceed.
Attorney Chisholm: Mr. Norman did you give Hr. Deibler permission to be
absent?
Chief Norman: No sir, I did not.
Xttorney Chisholm: How many days vms he absent?
Chief Norman: From the 16th to the 30th of October.
Attorney Chisholm: He was absent without your permission.
Chief Norman: Yes sir.
Attorney Chisholm: Do you know if he got permission from anyone?
Chief Norman: No sir. I do not.
Attorney Chisholm: Normally you regulate the hours he works?
Chief Norman: That is right.
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Attorney. Clark: If it is alright vlith the Council I "fOuld like to go back
a little. It is my understanding that from the 14th through the 27th of
August Mr. Deibler worked a double shift.
Chief Norman: As far as double shift is concerned, this is misleading. vJe
are both on 24 hour call at all times. No man works 24 hours, we are on
call. He was here, that is correct.
Attorney Clark: It is my understanding that you had a vacation at this time
and he in turn would be granted a vacation.
Chief Norman: Yes sir; he is due a vacation. There is no argument there.
Attorney Clark: Is it not true that on the 7th day of October Mr. Deibler
came to you and ask if he might take his vacation.
Chief Norman: No sir, the first time he approached me was on the 8th, which
was on a Sunday.
Attorney Clark: We ,'fill give or take a little, roughly in this area, the
7th or 8th of the month.
Chief Norman: He called me by phone and told me he wanted to take his two
weeks vacation.
At torney Clark: Imat was your reply?
Chief Norman: I told him he did not have two weeks vacation coming. I told
the Mayor on Honday he only had 8 days coming. I believe at the time I said
he had used 6 days, but it ,laS 5 days, vJhich meant he had 9 days coming if he
received equal time.
Attorney Clark: Now you state he had used 5 days, just v-rhat do you mean he
had used 5 days?
Chief Norman: He took off and left the State, I do not know just v-rhere he
"lent. That I'las in July. The 7th, 8th, 9th, lOth and 11th.
Attorney Clark:. Now is it not a fact, to make up for this, Mr. Deibler work-
ed tlVO double shifts.
Chief Norman: No sir.
Attorney Clark: We have a difference of opinion here, whether V~. Deibler
worked a double shift or not and I think v-re should clarify this.
Mr. Deibler: He made a trip to Jacksonville and laid over in Ormond Beach and
did not come in to work. I ,'forked all night and done double duty.
Chief Norman: That is not so.
Mr. Deibler: I worked all day and done double duty. He got paid for the trip
to Jacksonville and also got paid by the City.
Chief Norman: That is not so.
Hr. Deibler: In other "lords, I vlaS Horking for nothing and he "iaS getting paid
for it.
Attorney Clark: Are there any records to indicate the time to be vfOrked. Say
from 3 to 3 or 12 to 12.
Chief Norman: :Hr. Deibler has the 3 to 3 shift. Although he only is on duty
8 hours, but is on call.
Attorney Clark: There seems to be a difference of opinion here, I ,iould like to
clear up.
Chief Norman: This business of my laying over in Ormond Beach, is not so and
I "lould like this cleared up. I came right back from Jacksonville vThen my
business was attended to.
Attorney Clark: I am not taking issue of vlhat was being done by either party,
but I vlould like to clarify this. I.Je will go on and come back to this later.
Attorney Clark: According to my information you went off to Daytona to pick
up a cruiser. NevT Smyrna, I am sorry, and at that time it is Hr. Deiblers
impression that it Has resolved that he could go ahead and take his two v-reeks
vacation.
Chief Norman: No sir. There again this is not correct. It was talked about
and the fact that he had two weeks coming, not that he did not have any vacation
coming, o"ring to the fact he already had used up 5 days of the two weeks. He
argued "lith me about that point and I explained "lhy he did not have tvfO \leeks
coming. Jack became angry "lith me and he left the car "lith his O"ID opinion
about what was going to be done.
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Attorney Clark: Hr. Deibler states you made the remark you did not care how
much time he took.
Chief Norman: I never made the remark about how much time he took.
Attorney Clark: Do you have any objections if I ask the Hayor a few questions
to clarify this, John?
Attorney Chisholm: If you can clarify this, you have my permission to do any-
thing you vlant. You can call anyone or ask anything you vlant to.
Attorney Clark: Mayor Shaeffer, do you have any objections if I ask you a fevl
questions?
Hayor Shaeffer: Go right ahead. I Hill anSHer to the best of my knowledge.
Attorney Clark: Hr. Deibler says he ".,rent to you arotmd the 13th day of the
month and explained the situation and you stated it was alright for him to
take leave the 16th through the 29th.
Hayor Shaeffer: I do not recall the exact date John approached me. The Chief
had told me John had 8 days corning to him and nO"l I vrill change it to 9 days, so
I said alright John you say 14 days and the Chief sayd 9, and I said nOvl John
you two boys get together. I don't want to mess in your affairs. I want peace
and harmony. I \vant you boys to vfOrk together and not be pulling apart. You
get Hi th I-IT. Norman and then come back and tell me vlhat arrangements you have
made. In themeantime I understand that Hr. Deibler and Mr. Norman 1vent up to
New Smyrna Beach to pick up the police care and while they were away, they
did bring the question up. Officer Deibler came to me and I don't know if it
was the same day or not and said t'Mayor, don't vfOrry about a thing, vie have agreed.n
I said, ItI am glad you have "fOrked out an agreement, as that is how I like to
have it.1t
Attorney Clark: And on the basis of that, he was marked off on the calendar for
two vleeks.
11ayor Shaeffer: As far as I Has concerned, he officially had two weeks coming.
Attorney Clark: I'IT. Norman, you vrere aware of the fact that he was on leave.
Chief Norman: No sir, I was not.
Attorney Clark: Did you try to contact Mr. Deibler?
Chief Norman: The only time I vias Mr. Deibler was on the road vlhen he would
be passing by.
Attorney Clark: You mean from the 16th to the 30th you did not see your officer?
Chief Norman: That is right.
Attorney Clark: Is it not a fact he vTaS vfOrking out in front on that Honument?
Chief Norman: He may have been vfOrking on it.
Attorney Clark: You mean you are both residents of Edgewater and still did not
see each other.
Chief Norman: As far as him Horking on the monument, there "lere many "lorking on
the monument. I did not say he "ras not working on the monument.
Attorney Clark: From the 16th to the 29th you made no effort to determine what
the situation was in your o.in department?
Chief Norman: No sir. Other than the fact I talked to the Mayor and I ask the
Hayor if he had any knowledge or knevl where l.fr. Deibler was and he told me he
did not.
Hayor Shaeffer: Nm.,r I am on the spot and vrill have to defend myself. Hm'l should'
I know where ~1r. Deibler was when he was on official leave. As far as I knew he
was on official leave as I was told by Hr. Deibler arrangments had been made be-
tween these bro. l'1r. Deibler told me ..lith his m'm mouth that arrangements had
been made, and I had no reason to ,doubt his word. \ihy should I know, you people
here think I should knovl, but why should I know. He was officially on leave.
\fuen I go on leave, I am on leave and my boss does not care ''lhere I go. I am
on leave.
Attorney Clark: In other 1'lords you thought Chief Norman knew he was on leave?
Mayor Shaeffer: I told Chief Normffi1 that I understood he was on leave and
Chief Norman said ItNo, he is absent vrithout leave.1t
Attorney Clark: Mr. Norman vlOuld it not behove you to look into the matter
further?
Chief Norman: I vrill ansvrer you this way. On the 23rd I talked to the Hayor
and ask him if he had given him leave and he said '1N01t he thought I had and
I told him I had not and then I said lets do something about it and I was ask
not to.
Attorney Clark: This was seven days after he had been on leave, or the 23rd?
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Councilman Smith: Question here. Due to the fact that you kne1f John vTas
away, you could not '.-Tork 24 hours a day, I don't kno"r vrhy you vlai ted until Oct.
30th to present any question on it, whatsoever. You say you were told not to
bring it up. For vThat reason? The City demands protection just the same and
you could no do it 24 hours a day. ltJhy '.'ras it not brought up vThen you knew the
man '."ras not i'fOrking.
Chief Norman: First of all Hr. Smith, as far as I vlas concerned and as far as
most people vfOuld believe, I had no way of knowing '.-Thether Jack had quit or
"\-rhat had happened.
Councilman Smith: Hr. Norman I have had experience '.dth men, and normally Vihen
a man has been away from his job three days, we immediately filled his place.
Chief Norman: Let me say one more thing here. From the 16th to the 23rd,
frankly I thought the Mayor had given }IT. Deibler permission to be on leave, and
that is the real reason nothing i"ras said or done about it, but then when the
Mayor inIDormed me he had not given permission, well that is a difference of
opinion.
Councilman Smith:
Council?
Chief Norman: I don't knOiol, but the first day 1>11'. Deibler came back to i"fOrk
on the 30th, I suspended him.
Attorney Clark: We have a variance here as to "\-rhether the Hayor advised you Hr.
Deibler was on leave, but now according to your statement the Mayor says he Vias
not on leave and he so advised you.
Chief Norman: I have witnesses who said the Mayor did not know.
Attorney Chisholm: I think the misunderstanding is that Hayor Shaeffer '.'ras of
the opinion that Chief Norman had O.K'd this vacation and Chief Norman was of
the opinion the Mayor had O.K'd this vacation.
Mayor Shaeffer: I advised ~11'. Deibler he and Mr. Norman to get together on
this thing. 1{r. Deibler stated he would do this as it was their problem and I
do not want you to enter into it. It is our problem to be ironed out, and I
told him it vlas a nice attitude to take, and they took their drive as I said
and came back and John came to me and said l-1ayor forget about the i'Thole thing,
I am to have my leave.
Chief Norman: Hayor, this drive you speak of, that i"laS before he came to talk
idth you.
1.fayor Shaeffer: No Frank, I have to disagree ~dth you, .it vlaS after.
Chief Norman: Then he had already made arrangements before.
Hayor Shaeffer: He had ask me before, but I sent him to you Frank, you are the
Chief and I hold you responsible for the operation of the police Department.
Attorney Clark: I believe it was the follovring day Mr. Deibler told the Mayor
they had ironed out their problems and he was to take his leave.
Hayor Shaeffer: I understand that 14 days vras agreed upon. '\ofuen 1.11'. Horman
came to me and stated he was absent I'd thout leave, I did not understand his
absence. I droped it from my mind knovring that Jack was going to take a leave
of 14 days, i"Thich I assumed they had agreed upon. But what came up in the mean
time, I do not knOi'l. I am not criticising the Chief, I am just vfOndering '.-That
came up in the Chief's mind in the mean time. On the 30th I said to him vThat
John vTould be back this afternoon.
Chief Norman: }1ayor may I ask a question.
yourself, why i'TaS he given ti'fO '.'reeks, '.-rhen
l1ayor Shaeffer: Because he came to me and
that much vacation.
Chief Norman: Yet nothing was said to me.
Hayor Shaeffer: I knOvT nothing about that. That is your contention.
Attorney Clark: I believe Hr. Deibler came to i'Tork for the City in January
1960. Hoi'T many vacations has he had?
Chief Norman: How many vacations? Other than the 5 days and several other days
which he ask for, that '.,rould be the only vacation he has had.
Attorney Clark: When he takes a day off, does he not make that time up?
Chief Norman: Not in that sense. If i-re are talking about working double duty.
I don't knai'T just vThat you mean by ma.1<ing it up.
Attorney Clark: It is my impression, Hr. Norman, if Jack took a day off he
'..rorked a double trick to make up this time.
Chief Norman: In other vfOrds, the next day I '..Tould take off and he would vTOrk
all that time.
Attorney Clark: I don't necessarily imply that you took the next day off, but
he vTaS on duty 24 hours.
Don't you think at that time it should have come before the
If he was given a vacation by
he only had 9 days coming?
told me that you had agreed to
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Chief Norman: No sir, there was several cases where this did not happen.
I do not remember dates as I did not mark them dovm, but on several occasions
1-'J.r. Deibler ask to be off and vie 1-lere all-rays agreeable. I can cite one time
vlhen his brother \'IaS here and they vlanted to go some'\'lhere and I said sure
thing as I might VTant to do the same thing sometime. The day of the Legion
Auction he had off. I did not say anything as the Mayor had given permission and
I was told about it later in the day. I did not object to it as it was for a
good cause, and I did not say anything about it, but as far as days off, they
were notl made up. He had several of them and they were not made up.
Attorney Clark: Did not Mr. Deibler "I'i'ork for you vThen you vrere off for tHO
weeks and \'Then you "I'Tere ill and other occasions vThen you vrere not on duty?
Chief Norman: He vfOrked for the City, he did not vfOrk for me, just the same
as I did.
Attorney Clark: You had bro "reeks pay.
Chief Norman: Yes Sir.
Attorney Clark: \'le have a peculiar situation here. i'le have a man here \'i'ho
thinks he is on leave. I understand he has had 21 years of service vnth a good
record, and has gone as high as Acting Captain and I am sure Mr. Deibler is
acquainted with laH enforcement "I'fOrk and the rules, and do you honestly believe
he vfOuld intentionally go absent ,.a thout leave.
Chief Norman: I don't think this is a question that I can answer. I don't know
\"hat his intentions "rere.
Attorney Clark: You have vfOrked vnth the man since January 1960, you certainly
knO\'i' the man by this time.
Chief Norman: I think generally there was disagreement before this came up.
As far as being agreeable, I think in the police Department there are certain
rules to follow, such as consulting the Chief of police about things instead
of going over your head, and that has taken place on several occasions vnth
petty things and that is why some of the descension has come about.
Councilman Smith: Question. \'Then you make the remark descension, I think the
Council is entitled to know.
Chief Norman: 1-1ention vThat descension vias?
Councilman Smith: You said there was descension between you and Mr. Deibler.
Chief Norman: It vTas evident he 1:fOuld to to the 1-1ay and say things instead of
coming to me.
Councilman Smith: That is ",hat I meant. If there ''i'as descension that is some-
thing the Council should knO\{ about.
Chief Norman: N01:T that is a question which could be very broad.
Councilman Smith: Then make it broad.
Chief Norman: I think frankly, I say think, as I do not knovT, but i think Jack
resents working under me, do to the fact he had 20 years of service, which I
understand he did have and I think he thinks he is more experienced and he re-
sents having to work under me.
Councilman Smith: Is that the only reason you had in mind for this descension?
Chief Norman: No, I vTould not say that.
Councilman Smith: I do not call that descension. If there is others \{e vfOuld
like to hear them.
Chief Norman: You vlOuldn' t?
Councilman Smith: No. I would call that jealousy and you are jealous of a man
that has had more experience than you. That is no slam at you Frank, understand,
I mean that is 1:lhat I vfOuld think.
Chief Norman: Let me say this. First of all there is no jealousy. '\.Ilhat experience
I have had I am proud of and have obtained by experience, and I have no reason
to be jealous of Jack.
Councilman Smith: This descention should be cleared up or somebody should leave,
because we can't have proper protection, satisfaction or anything where there is
descension.
Chief Norman: You ask me a question Hr. Smith and I tried to ans"rer it. I don't
see where this could lead to as we could go on and on vnth a thing like this.
Councilman Smith: You made the statement~ I didn't. You said there was descension
and I ask you to clarify it.
Attorney Clark: Ur. Norman vlOuld you say from your observation that }fr. Deibler
is a respectable, competent officer.
Chief Norman: Yes sir. I have no reason to say othervnse. I ,.all not condemn
the man's reputation and I do not have anything to say against him.
Attorney Clark: As far as his duty is concerned you would say it was satisfactory.
Chief Norman: One thing here I might add, I think many times he has stated that
he has worked harder and longer than it appears, and naturally just the same as I
have sometimes. This statement of working 24 hours, naturally he is on call just
the same as I am if there is an emergency, naturally he is called the same as I
am. If we went back and made up over time I vfOuld have a lot coming to me as I
worked here a good many years all by myself.
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Attorney Clark: I do not consider this too important, everyone has to work
long hours at sometime or other. But lets go on the basis of the hours he
puts in and the salary he receives. My figures shows 74~ per hour on four
week month and 60i per hour on five week month.
Chief Norman: I don't think the pay is the argument here.
Attorney Clark: i'lhat I am trying to point out is that if he did not like his
work, or if he were not dedicated to this service, he certainly could find
employment that would pay him no less and in all probability more.
Chief Norman: ''Tell I 1'lould think so.
Attorney Clark: In view of this fact, he is a capable man? On the basis of
all facts considered, it must be for the love of the work and the benefit he
renders the community. I admire you and I admire him for any man that wears
is to be honored. They are underpaid for the time they put in, for they risk
their lives to make a community safe for its inhabitants. Do you feel Mr.
Deibler is less dedicated to his work?
Chief Norman: Do I feel he is less dedicated? Is that the question?
Attorney Clark: Yes.
Chief Norman: No sir. I might add, if you are talking about pay and time off,
I know he vmuld like to get a job somewhere else, in fact he told me one day
he wanted a job where he could work five days a week and daytime only, and I
agreed with him. I think if a man can better himself that is i'rhat he should do,
and I would not stand in his v-ray. I 1'lould recommend him.
Attorney Clark: The issue here is absence vathout leave. Do you believe under
the circumstances he would deliberately jeopardize his job?
Chief Norman: I don't think this is a fair question as I do not know what the
plan was, or if there was a plan, all that I am aware of is he did not have my
permission and did not come in to vmrk. That is all that I am sure of.
Attorney Clark: \'Tas there any question in your mind ,'lhy he was not on duty.
Chief Norman: I assumed that the Mayor had let Mr. Deibler off. That is up to
up to the day trat I ask him, and he told me "No" and that is the reason that I
did not do anything in the beginning. If I did not think the Hayor had let him
off, I "muld have gone to him the first day, an-y'llay I believe I 1'lould.
Attorney Clark: You believe you would have gone to ~{r. Deibler if you had not
thought the Mayor had granted him leave.
Chief Norman: Yes sir, I believe I would have.
Attorney Chisholm: iihen ever you are through, we would like to open this to
questions by the Council.
Attorney Clark: It would be my opinion Chief that if an employee did not show
up, you would get on the phone and find out about it, at least after a couple of
days.
Chief Norman: Well you might wonder. It depends on a lot of things. Naturally
I wondered.
Attorney Clark: 'iTould it not be your position as Chief of Nevr Smyrna to find
out just i'rhat the story VlaS.
Chief Norman: Not Ne1'l Smyrna.
Attorney Clark: I am sorry, Edgewater.
Chief Norman: Let me go back. \'Then a man has gone to the Mayor ,vi th various
things before that time, you naturally figure it was taken care of by the Mayor.
Attorney Clark: Then you were under the impression the Mayor had given Mr.
Deibler his leave and he would be back.
Chief Norman: It appeared that ,'lay.
Attorney Clark: Did you take this up i'ath the Mayor to find out 1-rhen he would
be back?
Chief Norman: Did you ask if I had taken this up ,vi th the Mayor?
Attorney Clark: Yes.
Chief Norman: I did go to the Hayor after Jack had been avlaY a week and ask
him about it and again on 1.fonday ,'Then he was supposed to be back to i'rork, and
I am reluctant to say this Hayor, but the Mayor ask me to 1-rait until after
Election, and I figured the election did not have anything to do with this.
Attorney Clark: Don't you believe you used poor judgment to let this ride?
Chief Norman: No sir: vlhen you work in a small City under the type of govern-
ment that most small Cities have, you more or less honor a man and go along
vlith him regardless of government.
Attorney Clark: You had differences of opinion there. ~lhether he was on leave
or not. vlhy vTas it not clarified beti'Teen yourself and the Mayor.
Chief Norman: 'ihy was it not clarified?
Attorney Clark: Yes.
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Chief Norman: I beli~e it was. I told the Mayor I did not give him leave and
he said he did not, so isn't that sufficient evidence to believe he was A.W.O.L.
Attorney Clark: At this point shouldn't you have gone to Jack and gotten this
straightened out. Here is a man who thought he was in the right. He was innocent.
He thought he was on leave. Don't you think you should have given him his cha.'1ce
to straighten this out.
Chief Norman: You think I should have gone to Jack and talked to him. There is
a difference of opinion here.
Attorney Clark: Yes, don't you think this would have been the right thing to do.
Chief Norman: There again Hr. Attorney, let me remind you this is a small town
and I had not seen Mr. Deibler and was that wrong. The same thing goes both 1-lays,
I am sure it must have gotten back to him.
ZAttorney Clark: This is very misleading and it all boils do..m to this. He either
mislead you or the Mayor in order to obtain leave, or he accepted leave in good
faith. Do you think Hr. Deibler vTould falsefy in order to get his leave.
Chief I.Jorman: ' I do not knovT if he mislead the Hayor or not. I vTaS mislead.
Hayor Shaeffer: I viaS definately mislead. I have no reason to believe that Hr.
Deibler would falsefy, or I have no reason to believe that Mr. Norman ..Tould falsefy
They are both two damn fine officers.
Attorney Clark: How often did Mr. Deibler go to the Mayor.
Chief Norman: Ask the Hayor that question.
Attorney Clark: Officer Deibler would like to have you answer this question as
you made the acquisation.
Chief Norman: At the time of vacation and another day the time of the Legion
Auction and Legion meetings.
Attorney Clark: This brings up another question about time off. Is it necessary
that he come to you every Friday and ask flDo I get off Saturday or Sunday or \'Then?"
Chief Norman: Usually on Friday. We changed about and if I remember correctly he
did ask me one time for a regular day off, and if I remember correctly, I said no,
I do not think that would work too w'ell as we both like to have Saturdays or Sundays,
and he agreed vrith me. After a fuss came up about days off, I handed a calendar
to the 1-fayor to give to Hr. Deibler and ask him to have him mark any days he wanted
off. I would like to give ,you that calendar for you to look at the dates, instead
of regular days, there is Saturdays, Sundays and every other days. Actually some
are Holidays, like Xmas and New Years.
Mr. Deibler: Last year he took Xmas off on me when my regular day off came on
Xmas.
Chief Norman: Perhaps some of this will anSvTer your questions, 1-fr. Smith, about
descension. You can see where the descension comes in as to disagreement over
many little things that go back over a period of time.
Attorney Clark: I think there is always disagreement, even between a man and his
wife, even though they do love each other. Some things have to be worked out, but
I think you said earlier that in all respect his work has been satisfactory.
Chief Norman: He is not being suspended for his work.
Attorney Clark: I realize this. But of course it caused alarm to him as he came
back on duty thinking he had been given a vacation and finds a notice of his
suspention. He informs me his record has been clear for 20 odd years Police service
and he is proud of that record and he wants to keep it unblemished. That is the
reason for the hearing this morning.
Chief Norman: A suspension is not a mark against his record.
Attorney Clark: You do not think a suspension is a mark against his record?
Chief Norman: Well, it is up to the Council to agree with it or not. I think it
is a good thing to have a hearing and find out, rather than going on and dis-
agreeing about things. I would rather have this brought out now than to keep
argueing from now on.
Attorney Clark: Do you have any questions Hr. Chisholm?
Attorney Chisholm: No.
Mayor Shaeffer: We vrill now hear from the Council.
Councilman Beck: I can't help but feel that somewhere along the line there has
been a misunderstanding by both parties regarding this vacation. I personally
cannot see why you two can't work together and I don't know whether the suspension
should stand or shouldn't stand. According to the statements \'Te have heard, he
is under the impression he should take it and the other he should not, and I feel
both of you boys should work in harmony, because you are both dedicated to the
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same thing. There is no reason in the world, with a little co-operation from
both, I con't see why you can't get along. I find people I can't get along
with, but if I have to work with them, I make an effort to do the best I can
to get als:mg. That is the way I feel about it and we have this thing brought
up before a bunch of people here and I am off work and losing a lot of time and
the first indication I had of it was when I got a notice of it. I am not a very
good Councilman because I don't hang around the City Hall 24 hours a day. I
come here when their is business to be taken care of and if I see something that
should be taken care of outside, I come here and say so and leave. This is the
first I heard of the difficulties you all have, when I got the letter Monday, I
guess, and I don't see vlhy you boys do not get along. I think you boys are doing
a good job and I suggest the two of you get together and get along. That is all
I have to say.
Councilman Seng: I don't necessarily have any questions, but I feel I have a
statement I have to make. I feel as though the man was under the impression he
had a vacation coming and he took the time off. You are both grovln men and are both
good friends of mine. I do feel as though the suspension was a misunderstanding,
between the three of you, the Mayor, the Chief and Jack. I don't think he took
something that was not coming to him without permission. I don't think the Chief
gave his permission and I am under the impression he thought the Mayor had given
permission. I feel he should not be suspended as he has done a very good job and
I would not like to see his character hurt vdth an absence without leave. I
would like to see you two get along like grown men with the Mayor who is the Chief
of Edgewater and I do believe this can be ironed out to the satisfaction of all
parties concerned, and I do think from now on there should be a schedule made up
as to vlhen you work and when not, then each would know when he was to get off.
So with this in mind, I think this should be closed.
Councilman Smith: I think these Councilmen have spoken well and there is not
much more to say. I know both of these men l'fell, and I have worked with men
all my life. I have been a "mrking manager all my life and know procedure and
I have seen mistakes made. As to the City Charter, the Chief worked all summer
at the dog track and I did not question that, yet that should have been a matter
for the Council as the Council is really the one in charge. I have had a lot
of connections with both men. I have called Mr. Deibler at 2 o'clock in the
morning and got him out of bed and he has come over and I have done the same
thing with Mr. Norman and he has come over the same way. I don't know anything
about this - Don't report it now or don't report it then. The Charter says you
must immediately report this suspension to the City Council and I say when he
knew the man "las not "rorking, he should find out why and report it then and not
the last of the Month, it says it right here in the City Charter. Now, this
Charter has been violated from one end to the other and I can prove that. I
kno"r John is a good man and I kn01'l Norman is a good man. They both know their
business and I for one do not feel this suspension, under the circumstances,
should stand.
Councilman Armstrong: i'lell, I do not have very much to add to this, other than
that I have found that both these officers are doing a good job and have always
done a good job. I think v~. Norman is aware of the City Charter and the fact
that he is the head of the Police Department, all patrolmen and special officers
and so forth who are employed by the City work under his jurisdiction. As far
as I am concerned, I{r. Norman is responsible to the Council for the protection
of the City. I believe I{r. Deibler has become the victim of circumstances and
was caught between, I might use the expression the rock and the hard place.
There is only one thing that enters T1\Y mind. Hr. Deibler ,,-las paid in full up
to and including the 31st of this month and yet he only had 8 days coming to him.
He may have had time built up to compensate for the time he worked when the Chief
was off, I do not knOI'f as I do not keep a record of how they work. I do not
meddle in their business as long as they are doing a good job and I do not get
any complaints about the Police Department. I commend them both for doing an
excellant job and I am sorry a thing like this had to come about. I do not think
Mr. Norman is Hrong and I really do not think Mr. Deibler is wrong.
I-iayor Shaeffer: I have knovln Hr. Norman since the first day he come to l'lork for
the City of Edgevlater. Hr. Fuller VlaS Hayor at the time and he came to my house
and brought Hr. Norman In th him and vlanted to talk to Mr. Friedley, and I vlaS
informed at that time Mr. Norman was a candidate for Police Officer. I remember
it as well as if it "rere five minutes ago. I said to 1>Ir. Fuller, nHe is a fine
looking young man and he au.:gj1t to make a good officer. II nIf I had anything to say
about it, I think he ,.muld be the man I ,'muld pick.n Hr. Norman was hired. Mr.
Horman has been "dth us ever since and the vlay he performs his duties, I have no
complaints. I am caught in the middle on this 'thing and you can understand T1\Y
position and how I was caught. l~en Officer Waltz died we had to hire another
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officer. I told the Chief to take applications for a police officer, which
he did. He received some six or eight applications l..rhich ..rere screened as
carefully as was humanly possible. \1e selected two men. In the meantime
Officer Deibler came to me. He came to my house and stated he understood the
City was going to employ a Police Officer. I ask what experience he had had,
and he said he would furnish me this information, which he did. In screening
these applications, it was done by the Chief and two disinterested Police
Officers of another Police Department "nth no partiality shown. Officer Deibler
and another man came up vnth a pretty well tied record. Officer Deibler was
hired. In the mean time it came up that Officer Deibler came from Pennsylvania,
the same state that I came from and I had shovm partiality. That is not true.
This was not the case, the Chief and I talked it over and Officer Deibler was
hired and I "rant the people of Edgevrater to knovr he has done a bang up job. I
am very proud of Officer Deibler and I am very proud of the Chief. vfuat has been
said here I do not hold against him, that is not my way of doing business. ~fuen I
ask you people not to spezk, I ask you in all fairness to give the Council and
the Officers and the Attorneys a chance to bring this to a conclusion, and you
have very nicely abided by my vrishes, as you can boo as well as you can vrhistle.
The bone of contention here is his leave and that is all. I said and I repeat
I am baffled and I say it \'TaS unfortunate the v-laY it turned out. I tried to
keep my fingers out. I understood from Officer Deibler he had this leave coming.
I am the Chief Executive of this City and personally it is my opinion there was
a misunderstanding all the way around. I am going to call for a vote of the
Council and at the close of this meeting, I appeal to these two gentlemen to get
together and work together as two Officers should work together. There has been
descension and I know there is descension and I have tried to hold it down, but
not for political purposes, ladies and gentlemen, for you are the ones that are
going to do the voting, I am only one. I tried to hold this dm1n, and in all my
military life I have tried to hold down descension, and I tried to hold it dOvm
here and there is no use for things to go the way they have been going here. If
Mr. Norman felt that l'1r. Deibler ..ras absent without leave, I informed him to charge
him with suspension and \"e v.-ill air this out in the open. Everyone has been above
board on this thing, there is notfuing being shoved under these chairs here and I
am going to be honest. If you blame me, I \"ant the blame. If you blame Chief
Norman, I want you to blame him and if you blame Officer Deibler,I want you to
blame him, but I don't ..rant descension. Now gentlemen of the Council, that is all
I have to say. I think this has been unfortunate as I think we have t\^TO good
Officers and they are a credit to the City, and I do say they have been over worked,
both of them, and they deserve your consideration. No..r it is up to you whether you
want to vote to uphold this suspension or you want to \^npe it out.
Attorney Clark: Before you decide to vote, I wonder if I can't make a plea on
behalf of Officer Deibler.
Mayor Shaeffer: You may, Attorney Clark.
Attorney Clark: For the benefit of the City Council and the public ..Tho have a
vital interest in this, othe~vrise they would not be here, and also Chief Norman,
I1r. Deibler took this job not with the expectations, hopes or desires ot taking
over the Chief's job as he realizes that Mr. Norman is his Chief and he has no
desire to jepordize anyone's job, but he took this job because of his love for
police work. He feels an injustice has been done. ~'1e can all make bad judgment
and errors at sometime, and it is his desire to keep his police record clean.
Therefore, it is our desire to have this stricken from the official records so
that he does not lose any pay and be re-instated vrith no ]financial loss ..Thatsoever.
We sincerely feel and honestly believe, however, an injustice has been done,
perhaps not deliberately as there is no indication in that respect. He is making
no demands, but only what he believes to be his right, namely that this be
stricken from the record and that he be paid. Basically this is it.
Mayor Shaeffer: }IT. Deibler has no loss of pay. I1r. Deibler was paid through
the 31st of the month, and today is just the 1st of the month so he has no loss
of pay. If Hr. Deibler is re-instated he will not lose any pay.
Attorney Clark: "las he not on duty yesterday?
Mayor Shaeffer: He was paid up to today. There ..rill be no loss of pay.
Attorney Clark: I only wanted to make sure he did not lose his pay.
Mayor Shaeffer: I.ir. Chisholm have you anything to say.
Attorney Chisholm: Mayor and City Council, I feel this way about it. It has
been unfortunate there has been a misunderstanding between these two fine gentle-
men. I feel when something like this comes up, it should be aired and everyone
should have his say. Of course, the vote is up to the Council, but I do feel
this vras brought about by error. Sometimes we feel we are using our best judg-
ment and it turns out vTe are using poor judgment and 1'londer why we done it. In
all fairness to Mr. Deibler there should be an audit made to determine if he had
days off or not, whether he vras over paid or underpaid, the record should be
cleared up.
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Councilman Smith: After hearing the evidence from both sides, I think it has
just been a mistake and misunderstanding all the vlaY around and I am going to
make a motion at this time The suspension be voided and Officer Deibler be re-
turned to his position under Hr. Norman "lith no loss whatever in compensation
and ordered back to \-lork at anytime the Chief says he is ready.
Mayor Shaeffer: Do I hear a second to that motion.
Councilman Seng: I second this motion.
Mayor Shaeffer: Roll call please.
Councilman Beck
Councilman Seng
Councilman Smith
Councilman Armstrong
Mayor Shaeffer
Yea
Yea
Yea
Yea
Yea
Mayor Shaeffer: 1,tt. Norman it has been the decision of this City Council that
Officer Deibler be returned to duty as you as Chief of Police, I am going to
give you this perogative. .As Police Commissioner of the City I order you to
put him to vlOrk today. The hours are to be determined betvleen you and Mr.
Deibler and you will give me a ,'rritten report of the time he goes to vlOrk and
that is all I care for. I want to congratulate all of you, Chief Norman,
Officer Deibler, A~rney Clark and Attorney Chisholm and the City Council for
the action they have taken and the people of Edgevlater, I thank you for cowing,
and I hope ''le have conducted this meeting in a manner that ,fill be a credit to
the City of EdgevTater.
There being no further business Councilman Beck moved vie do noVi adjourn,
seconded by Councilman Smith and by vote CARRIED.
Time 10:20 A.M.
Hayo
Councilman
Attest:
City Clerk