11-06-2006 - Regular
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CITY COUNCIL OF EDGEWATER
REGULAR MEETING
NOVEMBER 6, 2006
7:00 P.M.
COMMUNITY CENTER
MINUTES
1. CALL TO ORDER
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Mayor Thomas called the Regular Meeting to order at 7:00
p.m. in the Community Center.
ROLL CALL
Mayor Michael Thomas
Councilwoman Debra Rogers
Councilman Dennis Vincenzi
Councilwoman Harriet Rhodes
Councilwoman Judith Lichter
City Manager Jon Williams
Assistant City Attorney Nicholas Palmer
City Clerk Susan Wadsworth
INVOCATION, PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
There was a silent invocation and pledge of allegiance to
the Flag.
2. APPROVAL OF MINUTES
A. Regular Meeting of July 24, 2006
Councilwoman Lichter moved to approve the July 24, 2006
minutes, second by Councilwoman Rhodes.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0.
B. Regular Meeting of August 21, 2006
Councilwoman Rhodes moved to approve the August 21, 2006
minutes, second by Councilwoman Lichter.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0.
C. Regular Meeting of October 2, 2006
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Councilwoman Lichter moved to approve the October 2, 2006
minutes, second by Councilwoman Rhodes.
The MOTION CARRIED 5 - 0 .
3. PRESENTATIONS/PROCLAMATIONS/PLAQUES/CERTIFICATES/nON
ATIONS
A. Clint Curtis, Democratic Candidate for US
Congress District 24 making an introduction
Democratic Candidate Clint Curtis introduced himself and
announced he was running for US Congress District 24. He
just wanted to come out and say hello to everybody.
Edgewater will be very important in making this thing
happen. So far they are ahead about 9 points so they can
actually pull this off. They just need people to get out
there and vote. They will hopefully get a Congress that is
more responsive to the needs of the citizens around here.
B. Presentation/report by George Kennedy, member of
Volusia County MPO Bicycle/Pedestrian Advisory
Committee
George Kennedy went over the Bi-Annual Report of the
Bicycle/Pedestrian Advisory Committee for the MPO on their
activities with regard to Funded, Planned and Requested
Bicycle and Pedestrian Facilities. He commented on the
federal funding the State of Florida will receive over the
next five years as a result of "Safe Routes to Schools".
The City of Edgewater was the first city in Volusia County
to be awarded for those funds. The amount slated for the
design phase in FY 08 is $50,000. The construction phase
of $350,000 will be scheduled for completion in FYIO. He
highlighted details with regard to the Mango Tree Drive
Trail and 27th Street Sidewalk.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if he was talking on the right
side or left side going north or both sides. Mr. Kennedy
informed her they are talking about running a bike path
down Mango Tree to 27th Street and then from 27th Street at
Mango Tree down the road that no longer exists. It is a
right-of-way that used to be the old 27th Street, running a
paved bike trail 8' wide from there to Travelers Palm
Drive. They stopped at Travelers because there is a ditch
there and a bridge would need to be built over and they
didn't feel they could get the adequate funding to get it
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to the end of Florida Shores. Phase II, which they are
already brainstorming on as a result of the new middle
school being put in in FY10/11, there is going to be a
tremendous need in order for them to extend that out to
provide a safe route all the way through Florida Shores for
kids to get to school.
Mayor Thomas expressed Council's appreciation for the time
Mr. Kennedy has put in.
City Manager Williams stated they have been notified by
Volusia County Engineering of their involvement with this
project and they have responded to let them know the City
will do its part to facilitate moving these projects up and
trying to get them constructed a little bit sooner than
what they are planning to do.
4. CITIZEN COMMENTS
The following citizens spoke:
Mike Visconti, 316 Pine Breeze Drive, read a prepared
statement. "Sometimes I wonder why I come to these
meetings. Why do I do what I do for the City of Edgewater?
I have been a volunteer since 1995. I'll tell you why. I
love my country and I love my city. This is what sets me
apart from people like Mrs. Carlson. I have raised money
for many projects including the Fazzone Memorial Fountain.
I was the one who appropriated money for the landscaping
and beautification of the medians along u.S. #1. When SR
442 was widened I met with the Department of Transportation
and Dennis was with me. I asked for compensation for the
36 trees and the City was awarded $125,000 to landscape the
entranceway for 1-95 and along SR 442. I also raised
enough money on behalf of Edgweater for the WWI Memorial in
Washington DC. I single-handedly investigated when the
City was sued for $690,000 from one of the developers and I
made a presentation alone. I did the research. Made the
presentation without the cost of an attorney with no
compensation or even recognition. I still volunteer and
still do what I can for this City. I will soon be 83 years
old and I am still going. This is why tonight before the
election I speak against one of the most important issues
before the City. The height restriction of 35 feet. So
therefore for the good of our elected officials the
Planning and Zoning, Economic Development and to improve
the tax base and relieve the homeowners and the citizens of
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Edgewater, I urge you to vote no on the three Charter
amendments. If Ms. Carlson wanted to save our City and the
environment she could have come before the Council and made
her views known and participate in the Planning and Zoning
or individual development the same way it is done in every
City in this country. Instead she has taken it upon
herself to tie the hands of our elected officials, the
developers, manufacturers and others who would like to add
value to our City and help the taxpayers by providing not
only revenue but also jobs and other benefits for our
City. "
Mayor Thomas thanked Mr. Visconti for his opinion. Mr.
Visconti asked if he could finish. Mayor Thomas informed
him they had some more people waiting in line behind him
and thanked him again. Mr. Visconti stated please vote no
tomorrow on the three Charter amendments.
Dot Carlson, 1714 Edgewater Drive, representing ECARD,
stated the Saturday before last when she got her water bill
she was furious. She and City Manager Williams sat down
and decided if ECARD did not talk against the City's
amendment they wouldn't do anything against ECARD's. She
pointed out the document she received in her water bill,
which she feels rubs salt in the wound. The citizens do
know they had to pay for this propaganda 101. She called
City Manager Williams before she wrote an editorial. It's
not what got said. It is how it got said. Edgewater is a
City in transition from a bedroom community comprised
mostly of single family, etc. and we want to move into
industrial. She stated they have stuff coming up tonight
that was moving from industrial to residential. We have
stuff going out west of 1-95. That is bedroom. She is
still looking for the industry. At the bottom this says
that this will take the tax burden off their homeowners.
That is editorializing. It didn't say anything for hers,
which she didn't expect it to but they had a gentleman's
agreement and the people of Edgewater paid for this. They
wanted to educate the people. They had a forum and she
played fair. She said if people want both, vote for both.
They didn't explain that if they vote No on ECARD's that
the City's is moot. She felt editorializing it isn't fair.
She felt City Manager Williams played dirty poker and she
isn't going to play with him anymore.
Carol Ann Stoughton, 2740 Evergreen Drive, wanted to know
who authorized putting that in their water bills. When she
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read the editorials as far as Councilwoman Rhodes and
Councilwoman Lichter that the people repeat themselves.
She stated they repeat themselves because they don't get
answers. She wanted to know who approved putting this in
their water bill costing the taxpayers money. She also
wanted to know who put all the signs on the garbage trucks
that run around the City. This is electioneering. This is
illegal. She would like to know who did that. The Council
is here to represent the people who put them in office.
Not the developers. Mr. Visconti is a builder and has his
own agenda. Yes, Mrs. Carlson went to the City to try to
have this put on the agenda months ago but no one went for
it. Instead they stood in parking lots and obtained
signatures yet the City went to Ann McFall and got it on
the ballot. She asked who was responsible for that. She
asked City Manager Williams if he knew who that was. City
Manager Williams took credit for it. Ms. Stoughton stated
the Council represents the public and the taxpayers and the
voters. As a City Manager she feels he doesn't have the
authority to do that. He knew what shape our town was in
when he was under Mr. Hooper. It was her that finally
found out that our debt was like $48 million and then he
downsized it to $46.5 million. Yet he makes a salary of
$140,000 total with his perks, yet little people out there
don't even make $20,000. While he is making the big money,
the little people suffer. Her tax bill just came out and
she is paying $2,600 and she doesn't even live on a fifth
of what he is making. She understands there is a big moral
problem in town. The little guy that is making $20,000 is
having his vacation time and sick time taken away. She
asked if that is going across the board for everyone or if
it is just with the little guy. She hears it from her
garbagemen and she hears it from her street people.
Councilwoman Rogers and Councilman Vincenzi are
representing the people of this town. She is very
disappointed in City Manager Williams because he knew what
debt the City was in, yet he gets $500 for gas allowance.
She didn't know how many people get that. She thought
there were a lot more things that could be done to save
their taxes.
Bill Lachenal, 3022 Vista Palm Drive, President of the
local Little League Association, stated they would be
crossing some t's and dotting some i's with City Manager
Williams very soon to get use of their fields. He wanted
Council to be able to see him and to be able to meet each
of the Council.
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Mayor Thomas asked Mr. Lachenal to have the people that
came with him stand up. Mr. Lachenal introduced the people
that came with him.
Mayor Thomas stated he appreciated what they were doing.
He is in full support of it. They have some problems they
are going to tweek out. They are really going to help the
City by doing this. When he first coached in 1978, they
played under Little League rules and then it went into a
friendly, family atmosphere. Winning is American. He
appreciated what they were doing instilling in the young
people and working with them and that they can now have a
team possibly go to the Little League World Series and
compete in the All Star Tournaments again. Mr. Lachenal
informed Mayor Thomas that is a goal. He then commented on
needing volunteers. Without the volunteers they will not
make it as a little league.
City Manager Williams informed Council they would be
bringing that agreement before them at the December 4th
meeting.
Andy Anderson, Pine Tree Drive, stated he thinks in the
City they've got two basic factions going around right now
that exist in this City. One faction is people like
himself who want to keep this City pristine for as long as
possible. He spoke of people that move here from other
areas commenting on how nice it is here. The other faction
is the big money people. These people are developers or
they have friends or families who are developers and they
want to put a condominium in everybody's backyard. That is
okay but he thinks they should have controlled growth. He
felt there should be an emphasis on this and that there
should be a lot of consideration concerning this in this
City so they can keep it as pristine as it is for as long
as possible. If they don't, they are going to have condo
canyons allover the place. They are going to have crime,
congestion and pollution. This whole thing will change.
The developers will be gone. They will have made their
money and we are going to be stuck with it. This is what
people like himself are trying to prevent. They don't want
to see that happen.
Mr. Anderson stated he has been coming to these meetings
for sixteen years. They have always had two periods to
talk. Now, with the new Mayor, with the help of one of
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their Councilmembers, it doesn't seem like it is necessary
anymore. He feels they should maintain those two periods.
John Cordeiro, 1515 Pine Tree Drive, stated he would like
to talk about the Citizen Comment period. He feels one way
to cure the whole thing and they won't have to worry about
anyone getting up there and talking because of things that
are going on if they do the will of the people and work for
the people and taxpayers of Edgewater. It's as simple as
that. No one pays any attention. He has been getting up
there for four years and nobody pays any attention to the
real owners of this City, the taxpayers. If they just do
the will of the people. He spoke of a goal for someone
that was running for office last year. He says he is going
to increase avenues of communication between the citizens
of the City to assure the City government is run by the
people for the people. How is it going to be run by the
people for the people if they aren't allowed to get up and
speak? If they put it at the end, everybody is gone
anyway. He feels it isn't right that people have to wait
two or three hours to speak. He knows they vote on it
tomorrow but he hopes it turns out the way he hopes it
does.
Mr. Cordeiro stated a little over a month ago two
detectives came to his house and they were investigating
something. He asked Mayor Thomas if he initiated that or
not. Mayor Thomas stated yes sir he did. Mr. Cordeiro
stated you did. After all they did for him. They went out
hours and hours and days and days campaigning for him and
got him elected and then he turns around and do something
like that to the people that got him elected. He asked
what is answer was for that. Mayor Thomas informed him you
need to stay within the bounds of the law. Mr. Cordeiro
asked what law he broke. Mayor Thomas informed him he
didn't break any law. Mr. Cordeiro asked then how come two
detectives came to his house and intimidated him and
threatened to put him in jail if he didn't shut up. Mayor
Thomas stated he wasn't going to debate that. He knows
what kind of person he is now. Mr. Cordeiro stated he knew
what kind of person he was now too and everybody does that
voted for him. Mayor Thomas stated to be very polite, he
strays from the truth.
Mike Thompson, Volco Road, stated
about Amendment #2. That is what
business a poison pill amendment.
he would like to talk
they call in this
Amendment #1 was put
on
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the agenda for a vote tomorrow by hard sweat of people.
Amendment #2 is a poison pill amendment targeted at
destroying Amendment #1. He moved here in 1960. He has
got to look at land developers up close for a long time.
If you give a land developer one inch of wiggle room he
will figure a way out. He spoke of being able to have
higher buildings if they put in mixed use. If he was
playing land developer, he would buy up four lots on the
riverfront and he would bulldoze those houses. He would
come down and apply for a 200-foot high tower and he would
say this is a mixed use. On the ground floor he is going
to put a bank, boutique, beauty parlor and a couple of
small high-end businesses and the next twenty floors would
be condos. If they give a land developer one inch of
wiggle room, you have lost it and that is exactly what is
wrong with the amendment. It gives the land developers the
wiggle room they need to destroy Edgewater.
Mr. Thompson commented on Amendment #3. They want to do
away with public participation. Basically what they want
to do is take public participation and move it to the
middle of the night. It won't completely do away with it
but it will eliminate one of their headaches. Hearing the
truth. Sometimes politicians don't like to hear the truth.
They like the guys that pat them on the back and tell them
what a great job they are doing. If they get complaints,
it is because they aren't doing a great job. He feels the
Council needs to straighten up. They have got a real mess
on their hands and passing more rules isn't going to solve
the mess.
Agnes Whitter, 223 Flagler Avenue, stated she wanted to
inform everyone that she has been rather concerned with the
things they have been told about if they pass this
amendment, they may face millions of dollars for lawsuits,
like Jacksonville Beach but nobody has put forth any proof
that that was so. She took it upon herself to call
Jacksonville Beach. She spoke to their attorney that is
representing them, Mr. Steven Stratford, and she told him
why she was calling and that there were a lot of citizens
in Edgewater that were afraid if they voted for the 35-
foot amendment, they would have to pay a hefty price for it
in their taxes in coming years. Mr. Stratford told her
that the lawsuits that have been brought against
Jacksonville Beach are a direct result of the 35-foot
amendment that was passed by them trying to be placed on
builders, investors, developers that had a vested interest
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in property prior to their 35-foot amendment being passed.
He said if they do not do that in Edgewater and allow those
people with vested interest prior to their passing of the
amendment if it is gets passed to have all the benefits
they would have had originally and that they shouldn't be
in trouble or faced with the type of lawsuits that
Jacksonville Beach is faced with. She thought this was
important and something the people should know.
Lawrence Visconti, 316 Pine Breeze Drive, stated the apple
doesn't fall far from the tree. However he can't tout but
his father can for what he has done for the City. He is
against the 35-foot height restriction because it is a
restriction. It stifles creativity, uses more land and
causes the homeowners to pay more taxes. He doesn't think
it is a good idea. He is a builder. He lives in Edgewater
and has an office on u.S. #1 in Edgewater. He is a pretty
small time guy but he intends to do better. He thinks
across the board 35-foot height restriction is not a good
idea.
Ms. Stoughton got up to speak and Mayor Thomas informed her
she already had one and couldn't have two. Ms. Stoughton
stated she thought she could. Mayor Thomas informed her
she couldn't. Ms. Stoughton stated when Mayor Thomas was
running for office it was five minutes and now it is three
minutes and no other citizens can get up. Mayor Thomas
told her to go back. Councilman Vincenzi told Ms.
Stoughton he said go back, he means go back. There is
somebody else that wants to speak. Ms. Stoughton asked if
she could speak after that. Mayor Thomas informed her no.
Bill Glasser, 1703 Needle Palm Drive, stated he has some
signs that he would like to put on the City trucks. He
asked if that was okay. He would like to get some taxpayer
money to pay for his signs. He asked if this was okay.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated it might be and asked what his
signs say. Mr. Glasser stated the City is telling him how
to vote. They apparently think he is too stupid to read
both sides of the subjects and make an informed choice. He
figures he ought to be able to put some signs on City
trucks and get the City's taxpayer money to pay for it. He
wants to tell them how to vote in the 2008 elections. He
asked if that is okay.
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Mr. Glasser stated he came down to City Hall today and he
wanted to take a look at the principles of fairness and
code of ethics. These documents were not readily
available. He asked if anyone was familiar with these or
if they knew what they say. Mayor Thomas asked Mr. Glasser
if he wanted the answers on his time. Mr. Glasser stated
yes.
Councilwoman Lichter stated she didn't know what he was
referring to.
Assistant City Attorney Palmer stated he spoke with Robin
Matusick earlier today about a potential records request
regarding the items he is talking about. Their conclusion
was Code of Ethics in the Code referred to the Florida
Statutory provision Code of Ethics for elected officials.
He believed that document was available from the Secretary
of State. They concluded the principles of fairness was
not a tangible physical document on file with the City.
Their recommendation to City staff in preparing their
response to the request was to direct him to the Secretary
of State for the Code of Ethics. If there was anything
specific he knows of that are on file with the City, if he
identified it to them he was sure they would be happy to
get him copies of it.
Mr. Glasser stated in that document there, that would be
Chapter 104, Election Code, Violations and Penalties, Item
4. It says nothing contained in this section or any county
or municipal Charter shall be deemed to prohibit any public
employee from expressing his or her opinions on any
candidate or issue or from participating in any political
campaign during the employees off-duty hours. He asked if
the employee driving a garbage truck around town with a
political sign on it was on his own time or on Mr.
Glasser's time.
5. CITY COUNCIL REPORTS
Councilwoman Lichter made a brief defense about we people,
you people and lumping the Council together. She stated
they are five individuals. She believes in the three-
minute limit before and after. She doesn't think five is
necessary if they collect their thoughts.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on a new conservation item
from the WAV Group that is being given to all new water
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customers. She mentioned some of the subjects being Avoid
These Plants, Waterless Gardens, Final Design Installation
and Drought Resistant lawns. They are constantly running
out of them with new people however, City Clerk Wadsworth
said if they make a list in City Hall with a name and
address and ask for the WAV Water Conservation book they
will send it to them.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on a meeting she attended a
couple of weeks ago at the Brannon Center concerning a
couple of road changes on U.S. #1. It was a DEP meeting
and there were only three people from Edgewater. It was
very poorly attended. There will be some closing of ways
people can get out of certain streets onto U.S. #1 such as
East and West Knapp Avenue, Sanchez Avenue and Hamilton
going out to U.S. #1 by Magnolia will be limited to right
turns only. They will be able to turn around at 10th Street
and come back south again if they wish to. She spoke of
this having to do with safety. DEP has found that people
taking lefts and rights off of these streets are where
there are problems. With the new school coming in and 10th
Street being so important, she was providing only the
Edgewater changes. She will let them know when this is
going to happen. It will be an inconvenience for a while.
The medians are going to be widened.
Councilwoman Rogers stated she has requested in the past of
the City Manager a status of the various projects that the
City has. She is looking for the developments that have
been approved that are sitting on the table that still have
not come back for permitting. She asked the status of the
status report. City Manager Williams informed her they
have not prepared that at this point in time. They would
certainly go back and research everyone of the RPUD
agreements with regards to the projects that have not been
started and read each one of those documents is something
he needs to do personally himself. He will provide them
with a status report from that. Precedence and emphasis
was placed on the budget and Land Development Code changes
and different items that have come forward.
Councilwoman Rogers asked if this would be something they
could have ready in January and then from that point on
update it. One of the goals she spoke with City Manager
Williams about is that the City come up with some kind of a
rule that will put the developer to the fire. Once a
developer has had an approval received on a project and
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they have indicated that there is going to be a tentative
start date or beginning date, if they don't begin by that
date or reasonable time that they are going to need to
define, he should pay something into the City such as
Edgewater Harbor. When that development was initially
approved, she has been made aware that the City has made
plans to accommodate the citizens for the influx of traffic
and services, etc. She stated they have been spending
money and questioned where the tax money is that was going
to come in from this wonderful project. They have not
received it. With anticipation like that that has been
across the board with these other projects as well. These
are amounts they did not quantify or realistically put out
in a separate line item on the budget but it's there just
the same. As far as she is concerned, it was another one
of those waste items.
Councilwoman Rogers asked City Manager Williams if he
wanted to comment sand. City Manager Williams informed her
he planned on bringing it up under his reports.
Councilwoman Rogers stated at the very end of their budget
meetings they talked about and had the CPA firm come in and
she gave Ms. Leary some kind of agenda or an indication as
to she wanted the CPA firm to expand the scope in certain
areas. They have received a memo back. She is not pleased
but she is not surprised. She suggested they let them do
the audit as was requested and as they are contracted to do
and that they go outside when they are done and get this
expanded scope done. Since they have given them the
opportunity, she doesn't like their responses. She felt
they were weak at best and they just need to go outside and
let somebody do the job and get it done right the first
time.
City Manager Williams stated he was also going to bring
this up under his report.
Councilman Vincenzi commented on the discussion of a young
lady that called to find out about vested rights. He asked
the Attorney the same question and he believed the response
was there was no one in Edgewater that had vested rights
except Reflections at that time. However, you have a lot
of developers that are coming back now that are saying they
do have vested rights because of the handshake deals and
verbal agreements that were given to them prior to them
actually filing any paperwork. Whether this thing passes
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tomorrow or not, if it does pass they are going to have
some lawsuits and developers coming in saying they have
vested rights. The only way to find out whether they do is
to challenge them and take them to court. If they want
Edgewater to remain the way it is with certain restrictions
and limitations on building, they are going to have to
fight it.
Councilman Vincenzi commented on the political ads the City
has been putting out. He has heard a lot of comments, some
good, some bad. He wasn't really sure whether it was a
good way to spend money. He isn't opposed to it because
one of the jobs the Council has is to keep the people
informed. Whether you agree with the ads or don't agree
with the ads, at least it gets them thinking about them. If
they don't like what is out there, one of the jobs as a
voter and a citizen is to find out about the issues and
decide on their own how they are going to vote. He didn't
necessarily think it was a bad investment of City money.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated Councilman Vincenzi said what
she was going to say for one point. Another point is she
is in agreement with Councilwoman Lichter. Just because
she voted to put it on the ballot doesn't mean when she
went into the voting booth that she voted that way. All it
meant was the voters aren't stupid. Let the voters decide
and then they live with the result. She didn't see why it
is okay to put one question on the ballot but not the other
question. The voters have the right to decide all
questions and they don't have the right to make that
decision for them. That is why she thinks all three of
those things need to be on the ballot. She is in favor of
giving the voters the choice.
Mayor Thomas commented on the traffic going to Orlando on
the East-West Expressway or 1-4 being a rolling parking
lot. He wished he could keep Edgewater the way it is but
he knows they can't. He calls that a cancer and it is
creeping this way. They have to figure out the problems
that are coming our way and to try to do something about
that. He would love to keep Edgewater the small charming
City but he didn't think they could do that. He isn't
saying he is pro=growth but he knows he has to comply with
Florida statutes, the City's Comprehensive Plan and the
rights of the land owners to a certain extent. He will
make sure it is done correctly and this is planned for in
the future.
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6. CONSENT AGENDA
There were no items on the Consent Agenda to be discussed
at this time.
7. PUBLIC HEARINGS, ORDINANCES AND RESOLUTIONS
A. Public Hearing, Nancy Hansen, applicant for
Edgewater United Methodist Church, 211 N.
Ridgewood Avenue, requesting a Special Activity
Permit for "Christmas Under the Palms" to be held
December 9, 2006, from 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m.
City Manager Williams made a staff presentation.
Nancy Hansen, 711 Egret Court, stated she noticed the State
put in new restrictions on the signs they can put out for
the event. She hasn't been able to find anything on the
Internet. She asked where they would be able to find the
restrictions.
City Manager Williams informed her anywhere on the property
as long as they are not in the right-of-way or extend into
the right-of-way.
Ms. Hansen asked if they could be placed out by 1-95 when
you get off the exit onto SR 442. Councilwoman Lichter
stated they probably aren't supposed to be there and they
keep getting taken away and put back again, the political
signs. Ms. Hansen wanted to find a definitive answer on
where they could and couldn't put them. Councilwoman
Rhodes informed her it is in the Land Development Code.
She also informed her she could put it on any private
property just not in the public right-of-way. City Clerk
Wadsworth stated with their permission.
Councilwoman Rhodes questioned if this could fall under
garage sale signs. They are allowed in the public right-
of-way for 24-hours.
Fire Chief Barlow agreed to work with her to make sure she
is in compliance.
Councilwoman Rhodes disclosed she worked for this Church
for fifteen years and she is a member of this Church.
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.
.
Due to there being no comments, Mayor Thomas opened and
closed the public hearing and entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Rhodes moved to approve the Special Activity
Permit for Christmas Under the Palms for the Edgewater
United Methodist Church, second by Councilwoman Lichter.
The MOTION CARRIED 5 - 0 .
B. Public Hearing, Targator Partners, LLC,
requesting an amendment to the Riverside Villas
Subdivision Residential Planned Unit Development
Agreement to extend the time in which the
Owner/Developer shall initiate construction of
the project
City Manager Williams made a staff presentation.
Tim Howard, 3028 Willow Oak Drive, stated he would be glad
to answer any questions.
Councilwoman Rogers asked if this was the delay he brought
up in a meeting a couple of months ago in reference to some
errors and problems with how something was presented to the
State and it kept getting kicked back. Mr. Howard
confirmed it was. Councilwoman Rogers stated she just
wanted to bring that out again so that it wasn't his fault.
Mr. Howard informed her it was not.
Due to there being no comments, Mayor Thomas opened and
closed the public hearing and entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Rogers moved to approve the amendment to the
Residential Planned Unit Development to extend the time in
which the developer shall initiate construction. The
developer shall comply with this requirement prior to
November 6, 2007, second by Councilwoman Rhodes.
The MOTION CARRIED 5 - 0 .
There was a ten-minute recess at this time. The meeting
recessed at 8:00 and reconvened at 8:10 p.m.
C. 1st Reading, Ord. No. 2006-0-35, Mark Karet, agent
for Edgewater Airpark, LLC, requesting an
amendment to the Comprehensive Plan Future Land
Use Map to include .60+ acres of property located
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..
at 1840 Airpark Road as Commercial (small scale
comprehensive plan amendment)
Assistant City Attorney Palmer read Ord. 2006-0-35 into the
record.
Development Services Director Darren Lear made a staff
presentation.
Mayor Thomas asked Mark Karet to come forward.
Mayor Thomas opened the public hearing.
Councilwoman Lichter mentioned a letter that was written
against this. She wasn't sure if Mr. Karet had a chance to
see it. Mr. Karet stated he was familiar with a letter
from Marguerite Fulton. Councilwoman Lichter confirmed it
was the same letter. Mr. Karet stated he read a letter
that was submitted to the Planning Board back in September.
If there is a new letter he has not read it but he was
familiar with Ms. Fulton's issues. Councilwoman Lichter
stated the letter was October 24, 2006.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked if she was right in assuming this
property falls under our SR 442 Corridor Study. Mr. Lear
stated it does. Councilwoman Rhodes stated in the Corridor
Study they have anticipated that as homes are sold along SR
442 that they will become office space, dentists, doctors,
those kinds of things rather than residential. She thinks
this falls right into line with that.
Mr. Karet wanted to make the Council aware they appeared
before the Planning Board. At that meeting a letter was
presented by Ms. Fulton. A gentleman by the name of Randy
Ross came forward and expressed some concern that he just
wasn't familiar with their plans for that piece of
property. They held a neighborhood meeting on September
18th and invited the people within the notice area and the
only one person who showed up was Randy Ross. They intend
to begin with only three individuals. Mr. Ross seemed to
be happy that their plans for the property were an office
use. He was familiar with their office in Ormond Beach.
He referred to a brochure he gave Council at the first
reading on the annexation, which shows their treatment of
their office in Ormond Beach. They hope to do the same
thing in Edgewater that they did in Ormond.
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Mayor Thomas asked Mr. Karet was kind of business this is.
Mr. Karet stated Zev Cohen is an engineering, planning,
landscape architecture and environmental service firm.
The following citizen spoke:
Dot Carlson, 1714 Edgewater Drive, asked how much of SR 442
is going to go commercial. There is a lot of swamp out
there and she hopes they aren't going into it.
Councilwoman Lichter stated this is a bit more west than
she believed the designated area that they were talking
about going to be office space type of homes. Homes that
get converted to office were closer to U.S. #1 in a
different area than this. Councilwoman Rhodes stated the
south side of SR 442 has been designated environmental.
That won't be built on at all. They are talking only about
where there are existing buildings now.
Ms. Carlson stated as long as they don't get into that
swamp because that is natural Florida and it is beautiful
in that area. It is a nice entrance to the City if they
can see the real Florida when they get here instead of the
red sails and the sunset. Mayor Thomas stated it is
called Turnbull Hammock.
Due to there being no comments, Mayor Thomas closed the
public hearing and entertained a motion.
Councilman Vincenzi moved to approve Ord. 2006-0-35, Mark
Karet, agent for Edgewater Airpark, LLC, requesting an
amendment to the Comprehensive Plan Future Land Use Map to
include .60+ acres of property located at 1840 Airpark Road
as Commercial, second by Councilwoman Rhodes.
The MOTION CARRIED 5 - 0 .
D. 1st Reading, Ord. No. 2006-0-36, Mark Karet, agent
for Edgewater Airpark, LLC, requesting an
amendment to the Official Zoning Map to include
.60~ acres of property located at 1840 Airpark
Road as B-3 (Highway Commercial) (rezoning)
Assistant City Attorney Palmer read Ord. 2006-0-36 into the
record. He stated for the record, this ordinance relates
to the same property as the previous public hearing so any
comments made during the previous public hearing should be
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carried forward and become a part of the public hearing for
this ordinance. There is no need to repeat those comments.
Development Services Director Lear made a staff
presentation.
Mayor Thomas asked for applicant comments.
Mark Karet stated his previous comments are carried
forward. This is a zoning that is necessary to implement
their desire to open an office in that location.
Due to there being no comments, Mayor Thomas opened and
closed the public hearing and entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Lichter moved to approve Ord. 2006-0-36, Mark
Karet, agent for Edgewater Airpark, LLC, requesting an
amendment to the Official Zoning Map to include .60+ acres
of property located at 1840 Airpark Road as B-3 (Highway
Commercial), second by Councilwoman Rogers.
The MOTION CARRIED 5 - 0 .
E. 2nd Reading, Ord. No. 2006-0-33, Mark Karet, agent
for Edgewater Airpark, LLC, requesting annexation
of .60~ acres of property located at 1840 Airpark
Road, cont. from 10/2/06, Item 6A (annexation)
Assistant City Attorney Palmer read Ord. 2006-0-33 into the
record. For the record, this ordinance relates to the same
property as the previous two public hearings so any
comments made during those public hearings can be carried
forward and become a part of this public hearing.
Due to there being no comments, Mayor Thomas opened and
closed the public hearing and entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Rogers moved to approve Ord. 2006-0-33, Mark
Karet, agent for Edgewater Airpark, LLC, requesting
annexation of .60+ acres of property located at 1840
Airpark Road, second by Councilman Vincenzi.
The MOTION CARRIED 5 - 0 .
F. 1st Reading, Ord. No. 2006-0-38, Tom Valley, agent
for PC Capital, LLC, requesting an amendment to
the Comprehensive Plan Future Land Use Map to
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include 3.67+ acres of land located east of Old
County Road, north of Pearl Street as Medium
Density Residential (small scale comprehensive
p I an amendmen t)
Assistant City Attorney Palmer read Ord. 2006-0-38 into the
record.
Development Services Director Lear made a staff
presentation.
Mayor Thomas asked the applicant to step forward.
City Manager Williams stated they view this project as a
very good infill project that will help promote
redevelopment or at least start them along the road to
development along u.S. #1
Glenn Storch, Law Firm of Storch, Morris and Harris,
introduced Tom Valley. They have looked at this project as
something that needs to be done for Edgewater as much as
anything else. Most of this is vacant land but is directly
adjacent to a multi-family project. He pointed out the
area that is multi-family. There are some smaller
buildings along Pearl. He also pointed out the vacant
portion. They looked at this as an infill development
because this is almost right down where downtown Edgewater
could be. They have designed this in such a way that they
can encourage walking hopefully to nearby stores. At the
same time they developed it consistent with the new Land
Development Codes. The heights are consistent. There are
no lots in this so they have avoided the lot issue as far
as the 75-feet. They have decreased residential densities
for the areas that are being requested to be changed. This
is all high density residential at this point. He pointed
out a small strip of land next to the railroad tracks that
was at point one designated as industrial. It is a strip
of land that can't be developed as industrial because of
the size of it. Bringing this land back to the road itself
as a natural buffer for the project makes more sense. They
have also requested 1.1 acres along Ridgewood to amend the
Comprehensive Plan to allow for medium density residential.
He pointed out changing it to provide for a much more
intense landscaping and entrance feature, which he feels is
important due to this being the gateway off of u.S. #1 and
being what people see. He spoke of the adjoining
properties bringing the buildings too close to u.S. #1. He
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felt there was no reason to see those buildings. They have
also provided extensive stormwater structures, which will
double as lakes. Those will be amenities to the project as
well. He commented on this being a small-scale
comprehensive plan amendment for industrial. Industrial
did not seem appropriate for this area and that is why they
are requesting it. He informed Council he was available to
answer any questions.
Mayor Thomas opened the public hearing.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if they had a rough idea of what
they are talking about in price. Mr. Valley stated not yet
until they know what the land costs are. It will be
moderately to low-priced. Councilwoman Lichter stated that
is what she likes to here because she feels they are
missing that in this community.
Mr. Storch commented on making certain that even with the
Land Development Code changes that they have housing that
is appropriate for Edgewater that still brings people to
this area and is still affordable. He knows know that one
of the debates was because of one of the changes it might
increase the housing cost to make in unaffordable. They
believe they can do this in the right way, in an affordable
manner.
Councilwoman Rogers asked when they anticipated the start
of this project. Mr. Valley informed her by the end of
January all of the approvals will go in and they will start
after that.
Councilwoman Rogers doesn't want to see a project that they
approve while she is on the Council and it sit around for
two or three years and it becomes what some of these other
sites have become, a total eyesore. She asked if there is
anyway they can get something put into the agreement that
this is going to happen and if it doesn't happens some kind
of benefit towards the City. If they are going to do it,
let's do it because they have believed so many other
developers before.
Mr. Storch agreed. He stated one of the things they want
to do is design a project that is doable because the whole
purpose is to increase the tax base and upgrade this area
specifically because it is infill and redevelopment. He
stated Mr. Valley has already bought the property. Now
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that he has bought the property, he wants to make sure this
goes through. That is why they are working so hard to make
sure the development is designed correctly. If this is not
started within six months, they will report back what the
progress is.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on them going through the
permitting process. City Manager Williams mentioned
various levels of permitting that are required. Mr. Storch
commented on the permitting process being very time
consuming. He didn't mind coming back in six months to
give them a status report to let them know where they are
in the permitting process.
Councilwoman Rogers asked how many partners are in PC
Capital, LLC. Mr. Valley informed her six. He is the
agent for them. He lives in New Smyrna and they are an in-
town group and can work with Mr. Lear once they do get all
the permits.
Councilwoman Rogers wanted to see the approval for this
one.
Mr. Storch stated they have listened to this Council as far
as what they are looking for and hopefully they have
incorporated some of those features in there.
Councilman vincenzi stated he met with Mr. Valley Friday
and they took a walk around and he showed him what they
want to do. He felt it was a pretty good project. The
thing that he has really got going for him is it is all
zoned high density anyway except for a strip or two so
there is no question he can do that there. He feels it
will add some flare and some style to the area and
redevelop it a little.
Councilman Vincenzi questioned there being an entrance or
exit off of Old County Road. Mr. Storch informed him no.
As they go through the site plan process there will be
emergency access points off of there but the main entrance
is off of U.S. #1.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated she doesn't like commercial land
and making it residential. In this case, she doesn't have
a problem with it. There isn't enough on U.S. #1 to be
compatible with that. She asked if the lift station needs
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to be upgraded, the developer is paying for it. City
Manager Williams and Mr. Storch informed her yes.
Mr. Storch stated they also looked at the idea of trying to
place commercial on there and it was just too small.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated she is in favor of sidewalk
communities. She feels that is going to be the wave of the
future. Actually it was a wave of the past and it is
coming back again. This looks like a good project to her.
Mayor Thomas stated he has been onsite and he feels the
land is suitable for that. He thinks it is in a comparable
area. He asked if they are going to be able to provide
proper water and sewer and if it is already there or if
they have to do it. Mr. Lear informed him they are
required by Code that they have to tie into the sewer. Mr.
Storch stated the lines are there.
Mayor Thomas stated Old County Road is dirt. He feels they
need to alleviate the traffic problem on u.S. #1 and asked
if there is going to be two entrances. Mr. Storch
informed him no. Mayor Thomas felt they needed to do that
or look at that to alleviate some traffic problems and use
Old County Road and they need to get that paved. He asked
if they could look into that. Mr. Storch stated they have
and they will continue to look at that. Mayor Thomas asked
how many units it was going to be. He was informed 114.
Mayor Thomas felt that was going to be 114 cars going in
and out on u.S. #1. Mr. Storch stated that is why they
designed it so it sits right where the median cut is. They
are designing it so they have four lanes and have proper
stacking. As they are going through the site plan process
they will look at additional access points if they feel it
is appropriate.
City Manager Williams stated as staff they can calculate
what is projected to impact road impact fee revenues are
and look at committing those impact fee revenues towards
the paving cost on Old County and Pearl Street.
Mayor Thomas asked what type of construction materials they
would be using. Mr. Valley informed him block and wood
with asphalt shingle roofs.
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Mayor Thomas feels this is good for the community to help
young couples start out. He feels it will be good for the
community.
Dot Carlson, 1714 Edgewater Drive, asked Mr. Valley what
types of trees are on the property now. Mr. Valley
elaborated. Ms. Carlson commented on the construction on
Park Avenue and the trees they have lost.
Ms. Carlson asked Mr. Valley if they were going to do a lot
of fill on this. Mr. Valley elaborated.
Ms. Carlson asked if he had any hardwoods on the property.
Mr. Valley informed him yes. They are having an arborist
work with City staff and with County staff to identify
where they are. The good healthy ones they will save.
Ms. Carlson stated she has heard that but sometimes it
hasn't happened. Edgewater lost their Tree City
designation. She hopes they can get it back sometime. She
asked Mr. Valley to encourage xeriscaping. Mr. Storch
stated they can certainly work with staff on the idea of
xeriscaping. Some of the stuff in the front doesn't lend
it self to xeriscaping because they want a very lush
entrance feature. He felt they should work waterwise
requirements for the rest of the project. Ms. Carlson
suggested doing native planting where the sod is.
Mayor Thomas closed the public hearing.
Councilwoman Rhodes moved to approve Ord. 2006-0-38, Tom
Valley, agent for PC Capital, LLC, requesting an amendment
to the Comprehensive Plan Future Land Use Map to include
3.67+ acres of land located east of Old County Road, north
of Pearl Street as Medium Density Residential, second by
Councilwoman Lichter.
The MOTION CARRIED 5 - 0 .
G. 1st Reading, Ord. No. 2006-0-39, Tom Valley, agent
for PC Capital, LLC, requesting an amendment to
the Official Zoning Map to include 3.67~ acres of
land located east of Old County Road, north of
Pearl Street as R-4 (Multi-Family Residential)
(rezoning)
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.
.
Assistant City Attorney Palmer read Ord. 2006-0-39 into the
record. For the record, this ordinance relates to the same
property that was subject to the previous public hearing so
all comments made during that public hearing are carried
forward and don't need to be repeated at this time.
Development Services Director Lear made a staff
presentation.
Councilwoman Lichter felt that with this volume of homes
that if there is an emergency situation trying to get out
on u.S. #1 she would want and hope they could look at this.
She doesn't mind if Old County Road stays dirt as long as
there is another, way out
Mr. Valley stated they actually have three. On u.S. #1
they revised the u.S. #1 entrance to be four lanes. They
have worked with staff and there are two lanes going out to
Old County that could go north and two lanes going out to
Old County that could go north to be used for emergencies.
Mr. Storch stated staff has been very aware of access
issues and wanted to make sure that was taken care of.
Councilwoman Lichter mentioned having the same type of
situation in Edgewater Landing.
Due to there being no comments, Mayor Thomas opened and
closed the public hearing and entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Lichter moved to approve Ord. 2006-0-39, Tom
Valley, agent for PC Capital, LLC, requesting an amendment
to the Official Zoning Map to include 3.67+ acres of land
located east of Old County Road, north of Pearl Street as
R-4 (Multi-Family Residential), second by Councilman
Vincenzi.
The MOTION CARRIED 5 - 0 .
H. 1st Reading, Ord. No. 2006-0-40, Tom Valley, agent
for PC Capital, LLC, requesting an amendment to
the Comprehensive Plan Future Land Use Map to
include 1.1+ acres of land located east of Old
County Road, north of Pearl Street as Medium
Density Residential (small scale comprehensive
plan amendment)
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Assistant City Attorney Palmer read Ord. 2006-0-40 into the
record. For the record, this relates to certain additional
property that is part of the overall project that was
previously discussed. Any comments relating to the overall
project can be carried forward as part of this public
hearing.
Development Services Director Lear made a staff
presentation.
Due to there being no comments, Mayor Thomas opened and
closed the public hearing and entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Rhodes moved to approve Ord. 2006-0-40, Tom
Valley, agent for PC Capital, LLC, requesting an amendment
to the Comprehensive Plan Future Land Use Map to include
1.1+ acres of land located east of Old County Road, north
of Pearl Street as Medium Density Residential, second by
Councilwoman Rogers.
The MOTION CARRIED 5 - 0 .
I. 1st Reading, Ord. No. 2006-0-41, Tom Valley, agent
for PC Capital, LLC, requesting an amendment to
the Official Zoning Map to include 1.1~ acres of
land located east of Old County Road, north of
Pearl Street as R-4 (Multi-Family Residential)
(rezoning)
Assistant City Attorney Palmer read Ord. 2006-0-41 into the
record. For the record, this property is part of the same
project that has been previously discussed during the
previous public hearing so any comments made during those
public hearings can be carried forward and don't need to be
repeated at this time.
Due to there being no comments, Mayor Thomas opened and
closed the public hearing and entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Lichter moved to approve Ord. 2006-0-41, Tom
Valley, agent for PC Capital, LLC, requesting an amendment
to the Official Zoning Map to include 1.1+ acres of land
located east of Old County Road, north of Pearl Street as
R-4 (Multi-Family Residential), second by Councilwoman
Rhodes.
The MOTION CARRIED 5 - 0 .
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J. 1st Reading, Ord. No. 2006-0-37, City of
Edgewater, applicant on behalf of Frank and Donna
Morris, requesting an amendment to the Official
Zoning Map to include 10~ acres of land located
north of Oak Trail, west of 2967 Oak Trail as RT
(Rural Transitional) (rezoning)
Assistant City Attorney Palmer read Ord. 2006-0-37 into the
record.
Development Services Director Lear made a staff
presentation.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if they are allowed to have
horses out there. Mr. Lear stated not if they are within
the City limits.
Councilwoman Rogers stated if she understood correctly,
this is two five-acre tracts. The zoning for this
particular area is one unit per acre and all the applicant
is requesting is to change it to 1 unit to a 2.5 acre
tract. She asked Mr. Lear if he knew what the plans were
for this property. Mr. Lear informed her he believed he
would be selling those two 2 ~ acre tracts and he believed
he was keeping the westerly tract.
Councilwoman Rogers asked if this is adjacent to another
property that they did the same thing on a while back. Mr.
Lear informed her it was down the street.
Mayor Thomas stated he isn't real happy because this is in
the Hammock but it is sitting in the County and we want to
take it in as the last two parcels. Mr. Lear informed him
it was annexed in 1994.
Mayor Thomas opened the public hearing.
The following citizens spoke:
Cecil Secrest, 2980 Oak Trail, stated he got this in the
mail a week ago saying they wanted to change this from A-3
to RT. He found out that RT was one house per acre. He
stated they could only have one house for five acres. Last
year they petitioned the County to subdivide one of the
five acres into 2 ~ acres and they turned them down. They
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are in the lOO-year floodplain and they said they could not
do that. He then went over some slides of the area.
Mr. Secrest asked if the City zoned it RT if there was any
possibility someone could come in and put ten homes in
there. He hoped not. He hoped if they rezoned it that
there is some stipulation that it says they do that.
Mr. Secrest stated he talked to volusia County today and
they informed him because they are in the lOO-year
floodplain that they were not allowed to build more than
one house per five acres. That is what they have to live
with.
Mr. Secrest stated they have tried the best they can to
preserve the Volco Hammock. He used to hunt out there
fifty years ago. He hates to see all this construction
going on and taking all the wildlife away.
Mayor Thomas thanked him and informed him he had run out of
time. Mr. Secrest stated he asked Councilwoman Rhodes if
he was tied to the three minutes and she told him no.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated she did so Mayor Thomas allowed
him to continue speaking.
Mr. Secrest commented on their shell road that they have to
maintain. He then commented on raising the road when he
built his home and the portion of the land they have left
alone. He commented on the wildlife that comes through the
property.
Mr. Secrest pointed out an area that floods from water that
comes from Air Park. He spoke of trying to preserve what
they had many years ago on the Volco Hammock. He commented
on the property for sale on SR 442.
Councilwoman Lichter asked Mr. Lear if in his background
search he found any evidence of water on the property. Mr.
Lear stated he was out there today and the water wasn't as
bad as what was portrayed in Mr. Secrest's slide.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if this was part of a larger
parcel that got then subdivided once already. Mr. Lear
stated he believed it was an unrecorded subdivision in
Volusia County.
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Councilwoman Lichter asked if there was some reason that
these two lots were different than the rest of the homes
near it. Mr. Lear stated they are closer to the Turnbull
Hammock as closer you get to Air Park Road. It is
important to remember it was annexed and they do have a
land use of one unit per one acre in the City and they are
required to rezone them to something that is comparable to
that land use.
Councilwoman Rogers stated so in 1994 it was annexed into
the city and in the county it was one unit per acre there.
Mr. Lear commented on the A-3 zoning they could have a
minimum one-acre lot. He wasn't aware of what they had
talked to the County about with the lOa-year floodplain.
Councilwoman Rogers stated right now what they are doing is
a rezoning. She didn't know what could be done as far as
the situation with one unit per acre. Looking at the
pictures of this property and listening to Mr. Secrest,
before she moved to Edgewater she lived on land just like
that. She asked if there is anything they can do to keep
it like it is at one unit per five acres. What Mr. Lear is
telling her is they can't because they have to rezone it to
something that is comparable. Mr. Lear stated the greatest
density they have is agriculture which is one per 2.5 acres
and they would have to amend the future eland use again
which is going to be a large scale amendment and it will
take nine months. Councilwoman Rogers commented on dealing
with mound shaped septic tanks because of the low land.
They are dealing with wells. Mr. Lear informed her City
water is available on this property. Councilwoman Rogers
spoke of having a private road, not a County maintained
road. She didn't see ditches on each side and a drainage
system. She would think that St. John's would most likely
not give a permit because of the drainage problems on his
property. Mr. Lear informed her they would be exempt from
St. John's. Councilwoman Rogers asked why. Mr. Lear
informed her because they don't meet the threshold of the
4,000 square foot of impervious or the 5,000 building.
Councilwoman Rogers stated but they have to have some
fortitude to look at what problems the citizens in that
area have currently and the citizens in the future would
have.
Councilwoman Rogers further commented on dealing with
hurricanes on her old property. It is awful.
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Councilman Vincenzi stated right now it is in the City. He
asked what it is zoned for now. Mr. Lear informed him it
still had the County zoning of A-3 on it at this point.
Councilman vincenzi stated which allows what. Mr. Lear
stated from his research it is one-acre lots in A-3 zoning.
Councilman Vincenzi stated if this was still in the County
they could potentially put ten houses in there. Mr. Lear
stated being in the City with the land use designation it
has right now they could do ten houses but that isn't the
request. Councilman vincenzi stated they probably wouldn't
be able to with the drainage issues. Mr. Lear stated it
would be the full-blown subdivision plat at that point.
Councilman vincenzi stated so they are asking for rezoning
to. Mr. Lear informed him Rural Transitional. Councilman
Vincenzi stated which is. Mr. Lear stated one unit per one
acre, which matches the future land use.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated but they don't intend to put one
unit on one acre. Mr. Lear stated what they have told
staff is to keep the one westerly five acres and split the
easterly five acres in half to make two and a half acre
lots.
Councilman Vincenzi questioned them wanting to develop the
one five acres closer to Air Park. Mr. Lear pointed out on
a map the property to keep and the property to split.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if there are any lots left on
that. Mr. Lear informed her that was all that was within
the City.
Councilwoman Lichter asked what the situation was with the
ones that divided. Instead of being five acres, they have
already divided the end ones. She asked how the one closer
to the north was divided. Mr. Lear stated that is the one
that Councilwoman Rogers was talking about that they
previously annexed into the City. Councilwoman Lichter
asked if there were two houses on that parcel. Mr. Lear
informed her there is one to the south and one to the
north. Councilwoman Lichter asked Mr. Lear to point out
the parcel to the north, which he did at this time.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated if they zone it one per acre
then that means they could build one per acre if they so
desire. Mr. Lear informed her that was correct, but it
does have the land use existing that allows one per one
acre. If they were to do that they would have to come back
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through Council anyway. A subdivision of ten units there
wouldn't be feasible. Councilwoman Rhodes stated so with
what they want to do now, they have three units instead of
two. Mr. Lear informed her that was correct. Councilwoman
Rhodes stated and they don't have a zoning that would give
only two. They would need to develop one for that. Mr.
Lear informed her that was correct. Councilwoman Rhodes
stated and that would take them some time to do that.
Mayor Thomas stated in the Turnbull Hammock going toward
Air Park Road is higher and when you start going towards
the middle it gets lower. That is why the two parcels at
the front could possibly work. He felt it was all low out
there. He asked if he voted yes, that allows him to do
what. Mr. Lear informed him they are only giving it a City
zoning designation. Mayor Thomas asked if that would
change anything. Mr. Lear informed him they would probably
have to wait and come back and try again at another date.
Assistant City Attorney Palmer stated it is his
understanding it was annexed previously and now has a City
Comp Plan designation, which would allow one unit per one
acre. A general statement of the law is the owner of the
property is entitled to existing City zoning classification
consistent with their Comp Plan designation. If it is the
will of the majority of the Council to not go with this
rezoning, it would be one alternative to go back and try to
bring an amendment to the Comp Plan to reclassify it under
the current City Comprehensive Plan at which time they
would still be entitled to a City zoning classification
consistent with whatever the new Comp Plan land use
classification would be.
Mayor Thomas stated if they wanted to build one house and
take a boat to their property and fight mosquitoes, that is
up to them. He doesn't want to subdivide that other lot.
Mayor Thomas opened up the public hearing.
The following citizens spoke:
Anthony Lancellotta, 2923 Oak Trial, stated he was the one
that split his property this year. His property is a lot
higher. The further you go down the street, it is all
swamp. He questioned where the water is going to go. He
felt they should go out and look at it and then make their
decision.
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Frank Morris, owner of the property, stated as he
understands it now, they can make ten houses on the
property. The street and that was zoned two and a half
acres, they are trying to prevent that. They are going to
keep the one five acres. They wanted to split that to two
and a half acres so they don't put five acres on there to
keep the integrity of the streets and everything flowing.
To the north, that is the fire range and City dump that was
in there before that. All they are asking was to take that
eastern part and make it two and a half acres and keep the
five acres off in there to five houses. They are thinking
about in the future giving his son two and a half acres.
They don't want one house per acre to go into there. They
want to keep that property as it is and subdivide the one
property. He wants to keep the other property for his
grandson but they have no plans for it.
Mayor Thomas asked if he wanted to build one house on the
five acres. Mr. Morris stated they don't have any plans
for the ten acres. They are trying to prevent ten houses
from going on the property. They are trying to subdivide
their property to go along with the rest of the people on
the street to make it two and a half acres so they can't
put five houses on this five lots. They understand the
water accumulates out there and they would have to bring it
up to City code if they decide to build out there.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated she would like to not vote on
this tonight and she would like Mr. Lear to research why
the County won't let them subdivide their property that is
right next door. If there is a valid reason for that then
they might need to know that.
Councilwoman Lichter would like to go to the property.
Councilwoman Rogers commented on the property being in the
lOO-year floodplain. Mr. Lancellotta's property was
approved no one came in talking against it. She asked if
his property is in the lOO-year flood plain. Even if this
property was zoned one per one, if it is in the lOO-year
floodplain they wouldn't be able to build anyway so they
wouldn't get one per one. She felt they should put this
off and the lOO-year floodplain also needs to be
researched.
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Mr. Morris mentioned asking Scott Beasley, the head Zoner
for Volusia County, what happens if the two parcels are
still in the County if he could build ten houses. Mr.
Beasley informed him next year if they want to go to the
wetlands it is ten acres per one house in Volusia County.
Mayor Thomas closed the public hearing and entertained a
motion.
Councilwoman Lichter made a motion to postpone the decision
this evening until they arranged for a field trip and a
little more thorough research into the background, second
by Councilwoman Rhodes.
City Manager Williams mentioned specifying a time certain.
Assistant City Attorney Palmer stated they could mention a
time certain in the motion. The drawback is if all of the
research isn't completed by the time certain, they have to
continue it again.
Mayor Thomas commented on the property being dry right now.
When it is wet it is extremely wet.
Assistant City Attorney Palmer stated just to continue
until the research is done, the drawback would be the
public hearing would have go be readvertised.
Councilwoman Lichter didn't want a date certain because she
didn't know when they could arrange it.
Councilwoman Rogers seconded the motion after it had
already been seconded by Councilwoman Rhodes.
The MOTION CARRIED 5 - 0 .
K. 1st Reading, Ord. No. 2006-0-34,
amendments/modifications to Ord. No. 99-0-08,
Ord. No. 2000-0-14 and the Police Retirement
Plan, removed on 9/25/06, Item 6D
Assistant City Attorney Palmer read Ord. 2006-0-34 into the
record.
City Manager Williams made a staff presentation.
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Councilman Vincenzi stated he bet the Firefighters had
this. City Manager Williams confirmed the Firefighters
already have it. It is a very similar plan.
Gary Conroy, Chairman, Police Pension Board, introduced
himself. He informed the Council they are the last
department in Volusia County that is going to have these
benefits. He further commented on what the benefits do.
He spoke of it being important to hire people that are
exceptional.
Mayor Thomas, due to previously being a police officer,
wanted to explain the DROP program. Councilwoman Lichter
stated she believed him 100% and didn't need to hear it
again but if he wanted to she told him to go ahead. Mayor
Thomas stated it is a good program. It's not going to cost
the City any money. The police officers are all for it.
He recognized the police officers that were at the meeting.
Councilman Vincenzi asked if it was true that it pushed all
the old people out. Mr. Conroy stated there could be a
downside because once you give someone an opportunity to
buy time they could leave a little earlier, you lose that
season veteran officer. He feels they need those season
veteran officers.
Councilwoman Rhodes felt Edgewater needed this being a
small Police Department. She commented on how valuable the
police officers are to the City.
Mr. Conroy thanked City Manager Williams for being
receptive.
Mayor Thomas opened the public hearing.
The following citizens spoke:
Pat Card, 3019 Willow Oak Drive, stated he has looked at
pensions before and feels this is a win-win for everybody
involved. The best reason for this change is that it
encourages retirement at a date certain. He spoke of
having time to train and be prepared to lose the
experienced person. He feels this is a young person's
profession because of energy level and an understanding of
the culture of young people. He supported the changed and
hoped Council would approve this tonight.
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Linda Small, 1629 Willow Oak Drive, stated she wasn't
opposed to any benefit for any employee that is free. She
asked for the provision that allows someone to stay sixty
months beyond the retirement date to the public. She
believed they had some discussion in the past three months
about permitting City employees to retire and then not
leave. City Manager Williams further explained how the
DROP plan works and answered additional questions presented
by Ms. Small.
Mayor Thomas closed the public hearing and entertained a
motion.
Councilwoman Rhodes moved to approve Ord. 2006-0-34,
amendments/modifications to Ord. No. 99-0-08, Ord. No.
2000-0-14 and the Police Retirement Plan, second by
Councilman Vincenzi.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0.
There was a ten-minute recess at this time. The meeting
recessed at 9:30 p.m. and reconvened at 9:40 p.m.
8. BOARD APPOINTMENTS
There were no Board Appointments at this time.
9. OTHER BUSINESS
There was no Other Business to be discussed at this time.
10. OFFICER REPORTS
A. City Clerk Wadsworth
City Clerk Wadsworth encouraged everyone to vote tomorrow.
B. Assistant City Attorney Palmer had nothing at
this time.
C. City Manager Williams
City Manager Williams commented on a letter he received
from Mersino Properties. He has had individual
conversations with each of the Council with reference to
their position on the excess sand that remains in
ParkTowne, which is not held within the containment pit and
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a verbal agreement that existed with the City and property
owners which was offered to potential buyers to induce them
to buy and was part of the City's efforts at that time to
promote Economic Development. He informed Council Mr.
Mersino was present. His letter described his displeasure
with City Manager Williams with regard to the position they
have taken with the sand. He has been out to ParkTowne and
taken pictures of the sand pile that remains. Mayor Thomas
asked if he was talking about sand or shell. City Manager
Williams stated shell. He commented on the shell pile that
exists currently and the other half of the pile being taken
by an adjacent property owner to Mr. Mersino's. Rodney
Jones, Sock & Dewatering is the business that he is
operating. He was successful in obtaining about 18,000
cubic yards of dirt from an estimation of his view or maybe
slightly more prior to them determining that this verbal
agreement did not exist in his contracts. None of these
verbal agreements exist in any of the property owners'
contracts. There were some verbal agreements that enticed
these people to buy. Council has some different viewpoints
with how they should treat this so they are here tonight to
talk about the remaining sand pile and ask that Council
either decide to authorize them to give away the remaining
portion of the sand or if they decide not to honor those
agreements. He then commented on photos of Mr. Mersino's
property. He stated there is probably about three feet of
shell and if they had to quantify that in terms of dollars
that is about $100,000 worth of shell that was put on that
property and again Mr. Mersino's property. He was looking
for direction from Council. He felt Mr. Mersino would love
to have the opportunity to address Council.
Chris Mersino, 476 Lease Road, Ortonville, MI, stated he
owns the land on Timaquan Trail in ParkTowne. About a year
and a half ago they were looking for an existing building
to move their tenant into. He is building this building
for his tenant, which he also is part owner of his company
as well. The reason they bought the land was because it
was very enticing that the shell was made available to
them. They were told on multiple occasions the shell would
be there. They looked at other cities. Their original
goal was to stay in New Smyrna, where they are currently
at. They changed their mind based on the promises that it
was City owned property, the process could be expedited.
It has been a long pain staking and constant process to get
this going.
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Mayor Thomas asked Mr. Mersino who told him that. Mr.
Mersino stated various members of the City. He stated
Assistant City Manager Liz McBride made mention of it.
They talked about it when they first went out and looked at
it. He didn't have exact names.
Mayor Thomas asked him whom he made the handshake deal
with. Mr. Mersino stated he didn't have a specific. They
were talking to various people throughout the process. The
other business owners in the sub have all been told the
same thing. They have all talked to him in the recent past
and all of their stories are the same. They were told by
the City that they would have access to the shell. Just as
the Jones brothers did with no limit to what they took.
They were next in line. They obtained all of their
permits. They have done everything they were asked
throughout this process. They expected this to be easy
based on what they were told they could fill their property
with the shell. The Jones brothers beat them with the St.
John's permit. They got all the access they wanted to the
shell and then some. They were next and when it was their
turn, they were told no, they couldn't have the shell.
City Manager Williams stated they shut it down at that
point. This all occurred about the time he became interim
City Manager. When they came in the Jones brothers had
access to the shell. They were taking the shell and they
became aware of it and had to go back and research the
contracts. By the time they made the determination that
none of these verbal agreements existed in the contracts as
they are presently written, they stopped it. However that
allowed for Mr. Jones to get all he needed at that point in
time. Mayor Thomas stated he got more than he needed
because he thought if a verbal agreement was given, it was
enough to get a pad and he filled the entire lot. City
Manager Williams stated that is probably the toughest part
to nail down through the verbal agreement is whether or not
the agreement just was extended to raising your specific
concrete or project up to the proper elevation or was it to
cover the entire project.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if this man was next in line for
wanting the fill. City Manager Williams stated he was the
next one that came in line. He also had another visit from
Jim Kelsey who owns property over off of Pullman that has
also expressed a desire to get it. However, Mr. Kelsey
didn't buy property from the City and he thought those
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representations may have been made by that seller. Mr.
Mersino has come to the table next and has expressed his
desire of getting some. He has also had Mr. Kelsey express
an interest as well.
Mayor Thomas asked Mr. Mersino if he runs a business. Mr.
Mersino informed him he did. Mayor Thomas then questioned
him dealing on handshake agreements and that he didn't get
anything in writing. Mr. Mersino stated no he didn't.
Councilwoman Rogers stated that was going to be her
question.
Councilwoman Lichter stated other people with the same
handshake have taken the sand and this man is next. Mayor
Thomas stated what agreement was made. Was it just for the
pad or was it made to fill the whole lot.
Councilwoman Lichter asked what the other ones have done.
City Manager Williams stated the only one that has gotten
any access to the sand is Mr. Jones and he has taken enough
to provide for about three people.
Councilwoman Lichter asked what Mr. Mersino's impression
was of how much sand. Mr. Mersino stated they were going
to fill their lot with it but they had no intention of
taking as much as the Jones' brother did. City Manager
Williams stated there is probably about 18,000 cubic yards
left.
Councilwoman Lichter stated if this man fills his lot,
because in good faith that is what he thought, if there was
enough sand for Mr. Mersino and the other man. She also
mentioned the other man not being in the park. City
Manager Williams confirmed he was in the park.
Councilwoman Lichter questioned there being enough for both
of them to fill their lots. City Manager Williams stated
Mr. Mersino has described his needs were the entire amount
that was left. Mr. Mersino stated the contractor they
hired to clear it was also going to shell it and he said
there was enough to do his and the gentleman to the south
of them. He said there was enough to do theirs and then
some.
City Manager Williams stated what he is looking for from
Council is they are pretty divided in terms of thoughts.
He needed, in the form of a motion, to know how to proceed
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going forward. If it is desirous to honor those verbal
agreements and they would suggest splitting the sand pile.
Councilman vincenzi confirmed that Mr. Jones had filled his
whole property with sand and asked why he was allowed to do
that. He asked if the property was so low that he had to
fill it. City Manager Williams stated there is some fill
that is required there. Councilman Vincenzi then asked
about this affecting other property owners with runoff.
City Manager Williams stated certainly he would have to
make accommodations for stormwater and so forth as it
relates to his specific development on Mr. Jones and even
Mr. Mersino. When the transition was taking place, they
became aware of it and they went through a number of
research with Foley as well to determine if there was
something in the agreements that existed that provided
this. By the time they determined there was nothing in the
agreements, they shut it off and Mr. Jones was the
fortunate one to be able to get to the table first and get
what he needed and go.
Councilwoman Lichter didn't feel this was fair that one man
has his whole lot filled and two others need some and don't
have any. She didn't know if they could take it off of the
other's guy lot or if they should compensate but he became
a hog and took the whole thing to fill his lot and this guy
was promised the same thing. Mayor Thomas stated if he
takes the remainder of the shell then what about the other
lots out there that made the other agreements. Are they
going to have to go out and buy shell and fill their lots?
City Manager Williams stated the agreement was once it was
gone it was gone. Mr. Mersino stated they were told it was
a first come, first serve and there was no guarantee there
would be any left when he got done.
Mayor Thomas asked Mr. Mersino again who told him that.
Mr. Mersino asked Assistant City Manager Liz McBride who
told them. Assistant City Manager McBride admitted to
saying it and said it was promotional.
Councilwoman Rogers stated Mr. Mersino said this agreement
was done about a year and a half ago. Mr. Mersino stated
that is when they began looking at the property.
Councilwoman Rogers confirmed he owned the land and also
has the company that is going to be having the building put
on the land. Mr. Mersino stated it was his brother's
company and he was building the building for him.
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Councilwoman Rogers stated it sounds to her like a lot of
heresay. When she reads this letter, since promises and
guarantees were made by the City, repeated by the City and
utilized by the City, it's almost like anybody could jump
on this bandwagon and say they were told. When you are
talking about something like soil or dirt it's not real
property in the sense that it is land that is sitting
there. It is land and this is a legal question because
whenever you are dealing with real estate, a contract is
not enforceable unless it is in writing. She asked if
there was a Statute that talked about soil and dirt and if
this could be researched. Assistant City Attorney Palmer
stated yes but nothing he was aware of offhand.
Councilwoman Rogers stated and then let's get into
something else. The $100,000 figure. She asked if the
previous City Manager had any part in this. Assistant City
Attorney Palmer stated he never spoke with him directly.
Councilwoman Rogers stated he was the City's Chief Officer
and that anyone else that they spoke to as far as she is
concerned is pretty moot. They did not talk to our main
person. She felt Rodney Jones caught wind that the City
was catching wind about it and he just ran with it.
Mr. Mersino stated he told them who told him. Councilwoman
Rogers asked who it was. Councilwoman Lichter stated
Assistant City Manager McBride said that herself that it
was a promotional and she told him that. Councilwoman
Rogers stated when he was asked names before he didn't give
them names.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated yes he did. He said Assistant
City Manger McBride right from the beginning.
City Manager Williams surmised that may have been an
enticement that was given by previous administration,
Council, to help spur the interest in purchasing these
properties. Councilwoman Rogers stated what right do they
have to do that when this is worth $100,000. It was just
given away to somebody and they are going to give it away
to somebody else and they are going to tax the citizens.
She felt that doesn't make sense.
Councilwoman Lichter didn't remember giving that away when
she served on the previous Council. There are often
incentives when you are trying to compete with other cities
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that are monetary or recognizable. She believed Mr.
Mersino and she believed someone was a hog and took more
than he should have. She felt Mr. Mersino was next in line
and should be given some of it.
City Manager Williams stated the research he has done
strongly indicates that there were those representations
that were made. He thinks Mr. Mersino could describe he
has had the same conversation with him about it surviving
contracts. He suggested Council consider potential
ramifications. He thought Mr. Mersino and other property
owners of ParkTowne would try to sue over something of that
nature and whether or not they have recourse, that isn't
something they want to debate but certainly the challenges
would probably be made.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked if this was the shell they went
over bid digging up. She commented on when they were
putting infrastructure in they encountered so much shell
that they had to pay extra. Mr. Wadsworth informed her
that was rock, not shell. It was a different material.
Councilwoman Rhodes wanted to make sure this didn't cost
the City any money.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated Rodney Jones took more sand than
he was entitled to. He abused the privilege of the sand.
Mayor Thomas corrected her and said shell. Councilwoman
Rhodes stated so now Mr. Mersino has to pay. Councilwoman
Lichter stated he doesn't have any at the moment.
Councilwoman Rhodes agreed with Councilwoman Rogers that if
they didn't have anything in writing the City doesn't owe
them anything. Technically they don't. Mr. Mersino
informed her he understood. Councilwoman Rhodes stated he
could probably try to sue all he wanted to but that he
wouldn't get anything. Mr. Mersino stated he wasn't there
to speculate on any legal action he mayor may not take.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated she doesn't like the threat of a
suit. She stated Mr. Mersino didn't say that, City Manager
Williams brought it up. Mr. Mersino stated that letter
came from him. He knows a lot of people are saying let's
get their attorneys to write letters and he suggested they
leave them out of this and work with City Manager Williams
and the Council. Councilwoman Rhodes stated she doesn't
think he has a legal leg to stand on but she thinks he has
a moral leg to stand on. There was no doubt in her mind
that he was told that one of the perks of buying in
ParkTowne was that they would have access to the shell so
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..
she felt he should have access to the shell. She didn't
think at this point in time he should be made to pay for
it. Anybody after him should have to pay for it if there
is any left. She didn't think that promise should be made
to anybody else.
Mayor Thomas asked Assistant City Manager McBride if when
they were making the agreements if she specified a pad or
to fill the whole lot. Assistant City Manager McBride
confirmed it was never specified. They assumed the pad for
the building. Mayor Thomas stated that is what he would
assume.
City Manager Williams stated and they have got two requests
on the table. If it is Council's position it could be very
easy to split it up, half and half. Mayor Thomas felt if
they gave him enough for a pad, they would still have some
left over.
There was a lady in the audience that stated she was
representing Mr. Kelsey and had a question. Mayor Thomas
informed her she would be able to talk in a minute.
Councilwoman Rhodes felt if Mr. Kelsey was told the same
thing that it should be split.
Mayor Thomas questioned how many lots were left.
Councilwoman Rhodes questioned how many people were
promised.
City Manager Williams stated once it is gone, it's gone.
Mayor Thomas stated but if they let each one of them have
enough for a pad instead of filling the whole lot, he felt
they could divide it up more equally. Councilwoman Rhodes
stated if there are four people out there, it should be
divided four ways. City Manager Williams felt if they were
going to take the approach of looking at what he needed to
bring his specific development up to or above grade, they
could assign cubic yards at that point. Mayor Thomas felt
City Manager Williams could do that. They will tell him if
they are going to do pads or fill the lot.
Councilman Vincenzi stated the sand is insignificant. He
felt everybody was ignoring the bigger issue of handshake
and verbal agreements. He felt this would open the door
for other people to say they were told they could do this
when they developed their land. He could care less if they
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give it away. Truck it over to his property with the City
equipment. He didn't care. City Manager Williams stated
they didn't want to do that. Councilman Vincenzi stated by
approving it and letting him do this, even though he is
probably right and somebody did tell him, they are opening
the door to other complaints and legal issues that will be
coming forward when these developers decide they want to
challenge the City with no evidence at all and nothing in
writing. Councilwoman Rhodes stated Assistant City Manager
McBride is verifying that she told him. Councilman
Vincenzi stated it doesn't matter. If he goes in front of
someone and he buys a house or something, if he doesn't
have everything in writing he isn't going to get it. He
feels bad for Mr. Mersino but he feels it is opening the
door for problems in the future.
Councilwoman Rogers stated the value of this is well over
the $20,000 or $25,000 and why wasn't it ever brought to
anyone's attention while these verbal agreements were going
on and how many more verbal agreements are out there that
they are going to have come up.
Councilman Vincenzi felt if they said yes to this, there
would be a load of them coming forward. Mr. Mersino stated
the one difference would be is he said while it's there.
Councilman Vincenzi stated but it isn't the idea of the
sand. He didn't care if he took that sand. Mr. Mersino
stated in this specific issue as far as anyone else coming
in. Councilman Vincenzi stated it is the idea that he is
coming forward with a verbal agreement or handshake and
they are saying okay because someone told him they could do
it and he didn't have to anything in writing. He felt bad
for Mr. Mersino. Someone in the audience stated that
someone is here. Councilman Vincenzi stated if it was up
to him he would take the sand off of the other guy's
property and put it back on the pile and just say forget
it, nobody told him he could do it either. But he guessed
they couldn't do that. City Manager Williams confirmed
unfortunately they couldn't at this point in time.
Councilwoman Lichter stated there are five of them up there
and they all have different opinions and usually they do a
vote. She stated Assistant City Manager McBride is sitting
there and she would ask her how many more besides these two
are involved. City Manager Williams stated as soon as they
were successful in researching the contracts to determine
whether or not these agreements existed, they shut it off.
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As far as Councilwoman Rogers point about the value, that
is why they are here tonight. Obviously it far exceeds his
value on a unit per cubic yard basis. He could probably
give it away piece by piece but in the quantity with which
they are looking at giving it away it far exceeds his
value. He has discussed this individually with each one of
the Council and have determined they are allover the
spectrum which is why they brought it to Council tonight.
Councilwoman Rogers stated she was thinking sand, not shell
from a containment site.
Mayor Thomas asked how much money wise is sitting there.
City manager Williams stated it is $5.50 to $7.50 per cubic
yard. He estimated the value to be around $100,000 if
there are 18,000 cubic yards. Mayor Thomas stated $100,000
and they are going to give it away.
City Manager Williams stated the City has taken some of it
and stockpiled it for itself for future uses because they
saw value on that.
Councilman Vincenzi stated he didn't know if it was legal
but he felt they should vote no to his request and then go
back and renegotiate with all the property owners and let
them know they were going to put it in writing and ask them
what they would like to do. He felt the verbal deals and
handshakes are not good. Councilwoman Rogers suggested
they strike the word renegotiate because it was all verbal.
In a court of law, that's not going to stand up.
Mayor Thomas asked if Ms. Small could talk.
Linda Small, on behalf of Jim Kelsey and Eric Ball, who are
owners of property in ParkTowne. There is without a doubt
an agreement, albeit verbal, about the fill. It isn't as
if they have no one on the City's side admitting to this.
It is clear there is a verbal agreement, a verbal
commitment, a verbal contract. She stated it was until it
was gone. They have 18,000 yards left and she thought it
was about integrity and about doing business in this City
with this government. On behalf of the City, someone on
the team made a commitment and she felt they needed to
honor that and abide by that. She informed Mayor Thomas he
set a precedent when the man said to him that Councilwoman
Rhodes told him he could speak for five minutes, he waived
the three minute rule because it was the fair thing to do.
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A member of the City's team had done something, even though
it wasn't right and there is no difference between that
situation and this situation. Councilwoman Rogers stated
there is a difference. This one was monetary, that one was
not.
Mayor Thomas stated Ms. Small was up here a month ago about
her tax bill and now she wants him to give a $100,000 a
way. Ms. Small stated she never said she liked this deal
or that she would have approved of this deal but the fact
of the matter is Assistant City Manager McBride made the
deal. It is a done deal. She doesn't like it and the City
doesn't like it but it is done. Some things are a learning
curve and getting control of the deals the City's people
make is part of the learning curve. She doesn't want to
give away $100,000 worth of material but Assistant City
Manager McBride made a commitment to the businessman who
bought this land.
Mayor Thomas stated was it the pad, was it the lot? Ms.
Small stated they obviously need to work a few of those
details out.
Mayor Thomas asked Ms. Small why she was representing Mr.
Kelsey and why he wasn't here. Ms. Small informed him he
is out of town. He had a family emergency.
Pat Card, 3019 Willow Oak Drive, felt the Council had to
consider that they have other properties to sell in
ParkTowne. The way they treat the people they have already
sold these to will affect whether or not the rest of those
properties are marketable. If they can't trust what the
City says, they have a problem. They won't sell another
one. When they think about this tonight, he asked for them
to think about how many properties they have left and how
much they are going to make on them if they can sell them.
If they make it difficult to deal with people in this City
to do business with the City, they will lose the business.
He doesn't feel they need to lose business in ParkTowne.
Mayor Thomas entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Lichter asked Assistant City Manager McBride
if there were other property owner than these two that are
aware of the situation that if it was gone that was the end
of it. Assistant City Manager McBride informed her that
was correct.
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Councilwoman Lichter made a motion to divide what is left.
She believed it should be divided between the two of them.
She believed every City has incentives for trying to get
business. If it was handled that way, it was verified by
Assistant City Manager McBride, the gentleman and the
representative and she felt someone took more than he
probably should have so if there is enough for the two to
have the pad she felt that should be the end of it and then
it is gone. They deserve something for coming in.
Councilwoman Lichter again stated she wanted to make a
motion to divide the remaining shell between the two people
that have requested it, second by Councilwoman Rhodes.
The MOTION DIED 2-3. Councilwoman Roqers, Mayor Thomas and
Councilman Vincenzi voted NO.
Mayor Thomas asked if there was another motion on the
floor.
Councilwoman Rogers made a motion to deny this request.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked her deny what request.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if she meant sell it.
Councilwoman Rogers stated that they deny selling it, that
they deny giving it and that they just hold onto it and
then they come across and make a decision in the future for
what they are going to do with it, second by Councilman
Vincenzi.
City Manager Williams questioned if they are not going to
give it to these folks. Councilwoman Rogers confirmed they
are not going to give it to these folks.
The MOTION CARRIED 3-2. Councilwoman Lichter and
Councilwoman Rhodes voted NO.
City Manager Williams then commented on Eastern Shores and
a grant. He stated Director of Environmental Services
Terry Wadsworth was also available to address any concerns
or answer any questions the Council may have.
City Manager Williams stated this grant we just received
notification is for the Edgewater Eastern Shores Stormwater
Improvement Project. The total cost is $802,350.00. The
319 grant is going to pick up $474,360. With the approval
of this year's operating budget, they approved the City to
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provide a match of in-kind services for labor in the amount
of $97,990 and $89,000 of professional services to be done
on this project. They anticipated this project coming
forward. They just didn't have an official notification of
funding. They are still waiting on pending approval from
the Indian River Lagoon Snook License plate grant, which is
to the tune of $50,000 that they should be receiving
notification shortly. They have also already received
$80,000 worth of grant funding sometime during the last
quarter of the fiscal year. They are asking for Council to
accept this grant and approve City Manager Williams to
issue a work order to B & H Consultants for the
professional services on the project so they can proceed
with the improvements that are necessary.
Mayor Thomas asked Mr. Wadsworth what they are doing. Mr.
Wadsworth explained this is more for the area than Eastern
Shores. The improvements they are going to do are outside
the park. That area floods all the way from U.S. #1 down
Marion Avenue and Industrial Road, in that area. Right now
water tends to flow to the north. The 18th Street canal is
right there so they are going to redirect the flow. They
are going to clean the water up by installing five second
generation baffle boxes to clean sediment and debris out of
the water before it goes and that is how they qualified for
the DEP Grant, the 319 Program. They are improving the
water quality which discharges the 18th Street canal
directly to the Indian River. They were waiting to get
this awarded grant before they proceeded with the
engineering. We got $80,000 from St. John's and have
another $50,000 pending from the Snook License plate
program for the Indian River Lagoon. The City is going to
spend $90,000 out of pocket for engineering. None of the
grants cover that specifically. They have about $100,000
for labor and in-kind with the rest being paid for by
outside agencies for labor and material to help relieve the
flooding from the Eastern Shores area.
Councilman Vincenzi asked if this was planned for and
budgeted. Mr. Wadsworth confirmed it was in the budget.
They allowed $100,000 for the engineering expenses and they
were able to negotiate it down to $89,000.
Councilman vincenzi asked who was doing the engineering.
Mr. Wadsworth informed him B & H Consultants. He
commented on his expertise and that being why they chose
them along with affordability.
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City Manager Williams referred to Page 4 of the packet,
which was the copy of this fiscal year's budget where they
made the appropriations for the engineering under
Professional Services.
Mayor Thomas asked Assistant City Attorney Palmer if he
wanted him to handle this like an agenda item. Assistant
City Attorney Palmer informed him he believed City Manager
Williams was looking for a motion.
City Manager Williams stated a motion to accept the grant
and authorize.
Councilwoman Rogers confirmed that what they were saying at
this point the moneys they would be expending, which is in
the budget they would have been spending at any point.
They are just needing the approval now so they can do what
they need to do. Mr. Wadsworth stated he and City Manager
Williams wanted to bring it back to Council with something
of this magnitude to make them aware and get their blessing
on it. He then commented on the project being $800,000 and
the City is only putting the $980,000 in and it is due to
the work of Brenda Johnson, Deputy Director of
Environmental Services and Calvin Ayers, Stormwater
Superintendent. They came up with the concept and put it
together. They used a grant writer that was provided at no
cost to the City by St. John's. He felt staff did a very
good job in getting the amount of money they have to do
this project.
Councilwoman Rogers stated you do do a good job and he
could sell her anything and she would approve it.
Due to there being no comments, Mayor Thomas opened and
closed the public hearing and entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Rhodes made a motion to accept the grant for
the Edgewater Eastern Shores Stormwater Improvement
Project, second by Councilwoman Rogers.
City Manager Williams asked Councilwoman Rhodes to amend
her motion to include the authorization to issue the work
order to B & H Consultants for professional engineering
services that are necessary for the project. Councilwoman
Rhodes asked to include that in her motion. Councilwoman
Rogers seconded the motion.
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Councilwoman Lichter feels things like this should be on
the agenda because it is something that might take audience
participation and not at the end when they are talking this
kind of money. City Manager Williams agreed. Normal
procedures would allow that to take place. Unfortunately
they are forced with one meeting this month and not another
meeting until next month. They have some time constraints
that are a detriment to the project and to the grant that
they needed to get the approval tonight.
The MOTION CARRIED 5 - 0 .
Mr. Wadsworth thanked the Council for their consideration
and wished them a Happy Thanksgiving.
City Manager Williams commented on the McDirmit Davis
response referencing Councilwoman Rogers' statement under
her report with regard to the audit. The letter outlines
several items that were discussed during Council budget
workshops and brought back to them on a one-on-one meeting
and they prepared this proposal and sent it back to
Council. In order to do what they are proposing, they are
looking at a minimum of $13,000 to $15,000. Through that
some items that were raised of concern they felt were
addressed with their annual audit with their standards
procedures that they go through. He then commented on the
Water & Sewer Fund Debt revenues being used to reduce water
and sewer debt. As a condition of their audit, they ensure
the moneys collected within that fund are used to reduce
the debt that fund has incurred. As far as transfers,
there was a suggestion that they look at all transfers that
exceed $20,000. They feel like they have done that. In
accordance with their auditing procedures and practices,
they suggest they go back and look at what Council feels is
an appropriate amount to transfer and do a study based off
of that in comparison with other cities. He asked Council
for direction regarding where they want to head with this.
Councilwoman Rogers stated she wasn't pleased at all with
the response. She spent time with these people and
especially with the Water & Sewer Fund debt and the amount
of the transfers from that fund to the General Fund and the
type of expenditures that was made out of the General Fund
that they don't have detail on. She feels they need to let
McDirmit complete their contract as was negotiated last
year and they are already in the process of doing the audit
and then when they are done, they will then seek outside,
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another CPA firm, to come in and do what they requested, to
expand the scope and then they could define it more when
they deal with another CPA firm. She wanted to do this in
the first place. She felt they were giving McDirmit a fair
opportunity to expand the scope since they were already
contracted to do the audit. She felt they were at a stand
point and don't feel the need in some areas and felt they
have already done the job. She didn't ask them to do that.
She asked them to expand the scope. She feels they need to
let them complete what they have done and then seek
outside.
City Manager Williams stated having some discussions with
McDirmit with regards to them expanding the scope of
services. Some of the points they have expressed is they
are required as a firm to go through peer reviews. Their
firm has just gone through a peer review. A member of the
peer review board comes in and takes all their audits, goes
through and reviews them and then issues an audit of their
audits. They have described that they did not receive any
comments from the peer review audit that they have done.
They feel like they have audited some of these items in
accordance with what was approved in the annual budgets and
issued those opinions. He also pointed out, with regard to
Item 4, the General Employees Pension Plan, there was an
authorization to have some consultants come in and evaluate
those plans. They have concluded this fiscal year and have
generated all the reports necessary to send to Principal
Financial Group and they are also sending a copy of those
reports to Foster & Foster who will be comparing a
comparison actuary to what Principal is going to come back
with. Some of the answers in number 4 may come out with
the separate actuary evaluation that is going on.
Councilwoman Rogers stated they received the peer review at
the last meeting that was passed out by Kelly Leary. She
wasn't questioning that. When they met and she mentioned
to expand the scope and they said they had never been asked
to do that before by the City of Edgewater and they also
mentioned there are other cities that they do expand the
scope and that was all that was requested. This is their
response so let's just go outside and get somebody to
expand the scope in really the Water & Sewer Fund and the
General Fund. They need to find out where this money is
going. They have done their audit but in their audit
reports, whenever they have done notes, their comments are
constantly talking about the Water & Sewer Fund and the
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transfers. They mention it but it hasn't been expanded and
there is a problem there. So we will go outside and have
somebody else tell them.
Councilwoman Rhodes felt they wanted more specific. She
felt that Councilwoman Rogers was asking them to audit
business decisions, not actual money. Councilwoman Rogers
stated expanding the scope is different. Councilwoman
Rhodes stated they are asking what detail they want. She
suggested maybe Councilwoman Rogers could tell them.
Councilwoman Rogers stated at this point she has spent
enough time with them and the day she had the meeting with
Kelly Leary and City Manager Williams, she felt Ms. Leary
was on the same page as her. This was like a slap so at
this point let them finish the audit and let somebody else
come in and expand it.
Councilwoman Lichter asked how much that cost. City
Manager Williams informed her they had to go out for RFP's
and bring back those requests. He felt when they develop
the RFP it won't be a traditional RFP. It will have to be
clearly defined and then sent out for services. He would
be really interested to see how many other firms are going
to grab the books of another firm and audit them.
Councilwoman Rogers stated she wasn't asking audit. She
said expand it but in this sense yes because these people
aren't willing to expand it. City Manager Williams stated
he understood what she was talking about with the expansion
of services but they are going to have to dive into the
workpapers and the certified financials. Those items have
been accepted by the State and the Auditor General. He
didn't know if they will find much is his early thought
process on that. That would be like asking Foley to go
grab another attorney's work and say tear it apart.
Professionally he didn't know how that would be accepted.
Councilwoman Rogers stated they would have two different
opinions. She felt there is something terribly wrong when
the City has a fund that has to have million dollar
transfers into the General Fund and the General Fund is the
meat. City Manager Williams informed her they would
probably come back and tell them the crux of the problem is
the tax issue. Back in 1995-1996, the tax rate was at 7.02
mills. There was a very strong emphasis to start bringing
that millage rate down. He mentioned the major increases
in taxable value but for years, from his assessments, and
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not to pick on the public safety guys it really didn't
generate enough taxes to cover those costs. That is his
own opinion and his own assessment at this point.
Councilwoman Rogers stated City Manager Williams made a
comment regarding #3. She stated the comment had something
to do with the debt asked him what that comment was. City
Manager Williams stated they feel during their normal audit
procedures they ensure the revenues that are generated out
of the Water & Sewer Fund are used to reduce the debt in
the Water & Sewer Fund. Councilwoman Rogers stated and of
our debt that we have which is at approximately $46.5
million, how much of that is attributed to the Water &
Sewer Fund. City Manager Williams informed her about $33
million. Councilwoman Rogers stated and how long has that
been sitting on the books. City Manager Williams stated
ever since the City decided to build a new Water Plant and
Wastewater Plant. Councilwoman Rogers stated and haven't
the auditors consistently made comments about the debt in
the Water & Sewer Fund and nothing has been done about it.
City Manager Williams stated they have made comments about
the large transfers but ultimately the Council approved
those large transfers and he felt that was what they were
trying to say. He then commented on how they have
accounted for those transfers with the normal audit
procedures.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated this Council authorized a
million-dollar transfer. She stated you have a choice.
You can leave that money in the Water & Sewer Fund and use
it payoff the debt in the Water & Sewer Fund and raise the
millage rate to pay for the General Fund bills.
Councilwoman Rogers stated or they start cutting back on
things in the General Fund so they aren't having to take
the transfers and they use the money to reduce the debt.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated that is what they are trying to
do. She informed Councilwoman Rogers she authorized it
this year just like everybody else did. Councilwoman
Rogers stated she was trying to go back to a roll back rate
and nobody came along with her and now she is trying to get
to the bottom of it. Councilwoman Rhodes stated then they
would have had to transfer more from the Water & Sewer
Fund.
Mayor Thomas informed Councilwoman Rogers it was her
suggestions to get the attorney there full time and her
suggestion on the audit, which he was In agreement with.
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Councilwoman Rogers asked if it was her suggestion to get
the attorney there full time. Mayor Thomas informed her he
thought so. Councilwoman Rogers stated she didn't think
she made the motion but she thought she seconded it and
asked him what his point was. Mayor Thomas apologized.
Mayor Thomas stated they are spending more money.
Councilwoman Rogers stated correct we are spending more
money. Mayor Thomas informed her they have to have money
to cover those bills. They can't cut the taxes and spend
more money. He agreed with getting another accounting firm
but informed her they will be spending more money and he
wanted her to think about that when it comes up for the
millage rate. Councilwoman Rogers stated or else next year
they are going to continue to the transfers, the debt will
never get reduced and the General Fund will consistently
continue to be the drain as the debt continues to grow and
then they never have an explanation for why their millage
rate is what it is, they don't have anything to show for it
and they won't have a City Hall and that is it.
City Manager Williams stated he has summarized his goals by
what each member of the Council has brought for him but he
has some plans in place to go out and start addressing some
of that. Some of that is questions back to Council. Is it
the emphasis Council wants to place on going above and
beyond meeting our regular debt service requirements? If
they want to make two principal payments this year to
eliminate the debt quicker? Those are the questions he is
going to pose back to Council that they need to describe to
him if that is the emphasis they want to take. Typically
they have been under the operating philosophy that meeting
the annual debt service requirements is okay and we meet
those annual debt service requirements but do they want to
go above and beyond. Secondarily is with the millage rate.
He is going to ask that at some point in time they land on
a millage rate that is appropriate and then say this is
where they think they need to be. All excesses that are
generated in future years they are going to commit to the
City Hall project and then he is going to ask them where
they want City Hall, which will dictate where they go with
some of the their philosophies. The stage is set. He
felt they needed to go through a Strategic Planning
Session. The University of Central Florida Institute of
Government Marilyn Crotty will facilitate that for $1,200.
It is a one-day session. Councilwoman Rhodes stated more
money. City Manager Williams stated it is more money but
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he feels this is badly needed and sorely needed and should
be very welcomed. He mentioned staff and Council being
required to participate. He spoke of developing a mission
statement and hammering out where they want to go over the
next five years. He would envision that they put that in
the form of an ordinance or resolution, which is officially
adopted by Council. That is their marching orders and they
go forward.
Councilwoman Rogers asked the date. City Manager Williams
stated he hadn't landed on a date because he wanted to see
if Council was in agreement with that as an approach to
take to addressing the millage rate today. Those are some
of the answers he needed from Council. Do they want to go
above and beyond meeting their regular debt service
requirements? If so they are going to have to take a
totally different approach. If it is their intention to
get away from a full one million dollar transfer they may
have to do that but that may be at the expense of some
services realistically. He is going to address some of the
benefits and those items that have been brought up and they
have set the stage and started working towards those items
but it isn't going to be easy.
Councilwoman Lichter stated in terms of the audit, is not
another audit due very soon? City Manager Williams stated
they are preparing now internally and the auditors will be
onsite at the end of November. Councilwoman Lichter
suggested they include whatever questions Councilwoman
Rogers has in that audit instead of going out for another
one. City Manager Williams stated this is above and
beyond. Councilwoman Lichter stated if she doesn't like
the company maybe they should change the company but you
can't have the company do it that they are working with now
and then a new one audit that company. Councilwoman Rogers
stated they aren't going to be auditing. She is just
asking for a couple of areas to be. expanded. What they
give them is not enough detail. They admitted they were
surprised the City had never asked them to expand the scope
before.
Councilwoman Lichter mentioned the last sentence of the
letter saying they could explain it better to them
specifically what they want that they would add it to the
audit. City Manager Williams read the last sentence of the
letter. Councilwoman Rhodes stated they need clarification
from Council.
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Councilwoman Rogers stated at this time, we have decided to
allow you to continue as normally scheduled in the contract
we have with you and that we are going to go outside and
hire someone else to do the expanded scope in these areas.
Councilwoman Lichter asked who decided that and if they had
voted on that. Councilwoman Rogers stated that is what she
is making a motion that they do that.
Councilwoman Rogers made a motion that they respond in a
letter to McDirmit Davis that at this time we would just
like for them to perform their audit services as they are
contractually obligated and then further that when the
audit is complete they will then received RFP's from a
couple of firms regarding expanding scope in a couple of
areas. The more she looks at this, if they just start off
with the Water & Sewer Fund and General Fund whoever does
the expanding of scope is going to trip over the ParkTowne.
What she is getting at in her motion is that they are going
to go outside and get another firm to expand the scope in
two areas and then they will see where they are at in those
two areas and then expand further if needed.
City Manager Williams asked if they are saying they want to
look at the General Fund & Water & Sewer Fund and he needed
a time frame. That is going to be pertinent. When you say
General Fund, are you going to narrow it down to ParkTowne.
If not, they are talking a complete audit of the General
Fund.
Councilwoman Rogers stated General Fund to ParkTowne yes
because she believes that is the biggest drain that has
been occurring in the General Fund. City Manager Williams
stated they have provided to Council that they would have
went back to 2002 when the project initially started and
brought that forward for those four years. Councilwoman
Rogers stated but they are telling them they have no
problem with the Water & Sewer Fund. City Manager Williams
stated what they are saying there is part of their auditing
process is they guarantee the revenues that are generated
from that fund are used to reduce the debt in that fund.
When they go in and look at ParkTowne they are going to
expand that to include Water & Sewer as well as Stormwater.
They are going to be looking at four years of audited
numbers and transactions that have taken place.
Councilwoman Rogers stated and they can give them that
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information. They can look at the general notes and all
the auditor's notes and the new firm can make a
determination.
City Manager Williams informed Councilwoman Rogers he
needed her to tell him if they want to look at those items
because when he prepares the RFP, he will have to be
specific.
Mayor Thomas stated so the motion in brief is they are
going to write a letter that this is going to conclude and
they are going to go outside for another firm.
Councilwoman Rogers stated exactly.
Councilwoman Rhodes
audit our auditors
RFP's next year to
expand the scope.
doing it this way.
stated instead of having another firm
and pay them extra, that they go out for
audit the FY2007/2008 and ask them to
She felt it might be less expensive
Councilwoman Rogers stated at this point they are obligated
to McDirmit Davis for three years. City Manager Williams
confirmed they were. If the Council took a position to
terminate that agreement, there is a termination clause.
They have to specify a reason for termination. One of the
reasons could be they have some new members of Council and
they feel it is prudent to solicit. Councilwoman Rhodes
stated they have an out in every contract. City Manager
Williams stated there is outs there.
Councilwoman Rogers stated but the other concern is if they
do this and they get a different firm for next year that
isn't going to help them when it is time for them to make
decisions for the budgets for next year. They need to get
to the root of the problem as soon as they can so next year
they aren't swimming like they are this year.
Mayor Thomas stated in her motion she didn't say she wanted
an audit company to audit a company. Councilwoman Rogers
stated she just wants them to expand the scope in a couple
of areas. Mayor Thomas stated they are going to complete
this audit and then they are going to go out for a new
firm. He asked if this was correct. Councilwoman Rogers
stated yes to expand the scope in a couple of areas.
Mayor Thomas stated they are going to let them conclude
this audit. Councilwoman Rhodes stated and they are going
to get another audit. Councilwoman Rogers stated not an
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audit. Councilwoman Rhodes stated another firm to expand
upon what our auditors are doing right now. Councilman
Vincenzi stated in specific areas. Councilwoman Rogers
stated in just a couple of areas.
City Manager Williams pointed out for Council to consider
that every firm that has governmental clients has to have
CAFR's issued prior to March 31, 2007 so they can be
submitted to the GFOA for CAFR awards, which the City has
been a member of for the last twenty-two to twenty-four
years. In terms of having information available before the
next year's budget process begins he didn't know that would
happen.
Councilwoman Rogers stated but April and May for most
auditing firms that deal with governmental audits, that is
a good time for them. So then that would still come into
play. City Manager Williams explained most of these firms
don't strictly deal with governmental clients.
Mayor Thomas asked if there was a second to the motion.
Councilman Vincenzi seconded the motion and stated whatever
it was.
Councilwoman Rogers stated expand the scope with someone
different. City Manager Williams stated they needed
specifics. Councilwoman Rhodes stated she is with her on
this but if expanding the scope is going to cost $60,000
she isn't for it. City Manager Williams stated they would
have to do an RFP first but he needed specifics for the
RFP. Councilwoman Rhodes agreed with going out for RFP's.
Councilwoman Rogers stated she would get someone to come in
and meet with her and City Manager Williams.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked if the motion was to go out for
RFP's. Councilwoman Rogers stated yes. Councilwoman
Lichter asked what an RFP was. She then stated request for
proposal for a new auditor for what Councilwoman Rogers
specifically wants to ask. Councilwoman Rogers stated yes.
The MOTION CARRIED 4 -1.
Councilwoman Lichter voted NO.
City Manager Williams commented on the summary of goals
that Council had set for him. He asked for Council to go
back and review it for him. Councilwoman Rhodes mentioned
being able to cut the budget by 40% just on paper.
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City Manager Williams feels one of the plans the City
should take with regards to millage rate debt, costs and
benefits should be a Strategic planning Session. He then
commented on the Institute of Government facilitating that
process. He commented on Deltona just completing the
process and describing to him that it was a very valuable
process to go through. He would love the opportunity to
incorporate a community survey with a strategic planning
process. It costs about $8,200 to go through the process.
He mentioned the City of Port Orange facilitating a citizen
survey in-house. They are going to look at the procedures
Port Orange uses. He feels it would be valuable to
incorporate a survey into the strategic planning process
that way they have community input. He feels it is very
prudent to do that.
Councilman vincenzi stated he had some questions as to what
the survey was going to look like, what type of questions,
how it is going to be administered. He felt they could
look at what Council wanted to ask. They would welcome
Council's input in that as well.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked if it would be a mail out survey
or door-to-door. City Manager Williams informed her it is
a telephone survey with 375 general residents and 25
businesses. It would be about a five-minute survey with
twenty to twenty five questions.
Councilwoman Rhodes commented on the mail survey that was
done a long time ago.
City Manager Williams stated after they get done with the
elections tomorrow, they plan on bringing back a resolution
that defines business and order of proceedings with Council
meetings and it is a very easy goal to obtain by putting in
a section that addresses continuances once they reach a
certain time frame. He felt everybody described at 11:00
p.m. they would continue the meetings to some point in the
future. He suggested they make it part of the resolution
that they continue to the next business day at 7:00 p.m.
and that way they can complete those agenda items. If that
didn't fit into everybody's schedule, he asked that Council
provide him with some input. Councilwoman Rhodes clarified
that if they didn't get it done tonight that they would
come back tomorrow night. Councilwoman Rogers stated she
couldn't do that. City Manager Williams stated they should
stay then until they complete the order of business for
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that night. Councilwoman Rogers stated or continue it
until the next meeting, which they can't because of the
advertising.
City Manager Williams commented on a goal Councilwoman
Rhodes set for him regarding pursuing quality development.
He looked for clarification on that. He thought what they
should consider is developing a citizen task force of our
residents, business members, try to reach out in the
community and find a nice diverse group that represents all
aspects of the community and come in and try to develop the
vision they need for the City. That will help describe
quality development. He felt everyone of the Council would
have a different approach. He felt they should bring the
community in and try to encourage that process.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on visions the Economic
Development Board and the Planning & Zoning Board have had.
These are advisory boards with some expertise. She spoke
of not listening to them. She didn't know why City Manager
Williams felt another group of citizens would be any
different and be listened to. City Manager Williams asked
for Council's reconsideration of that goal. He felt that
was something that would be tough for him to attain if they
don't have a clear understanding of the vision.
Councilwoman Lichter mention the people that stand up at
every meeting that have a vision. She spoke of looking at
a different way to get different ideas of vision.
Councilwoman Rhodes suggested they bring those ten people
together with some of the other people and let them come to
a consensus on a vision. City Manager Williams felt that
would be very beneficial for the City.
Councilman Vincenzi suggested they do an identical board
and bring ten developers together to do the same thing,
independently. City Manager Williams felt the importance
should be placed on the citizens and business leaders that
have been here for a long time. It is just a suggestion
for Council's consideration.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated one of the things that surprised
her the most when she was elected was she always thought
these people were her friends, her neighbors and they
elected her and as soon as you sit on the Council it
becomes an adversarial relationship. If they get a
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citizens group together, then they lose that adversarial
relationship they have and have more communication.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on seeing a diversified
group and there being a diversity to this community. She
feels any group they have gotten in the past represents one
class of citizens.
City Manager Williams agreed and suggested they reach out
to the PTA's and bring that aspect to the community and
some elderly. Councilwoman Rhodes suggested teenagers.
City Manager Williams stated it certainly would not be an
easy process but hopefully at the end of the day hopefully
they get a very beneficial vision for the City.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on a Youth Services Board in
Connecticut.
Councilwoman Rogers asked what was going on with Hammock
Creek. City Manager Williams stated the application for
Development of Regional Impact has been filed. There have
been numerous comments the County has placed on that
application and the City has placed. He commented on an
article in the newspaper by Mr. Bidgood today describing
the objections that were made by each municipality.
Councilwoman Rogers stated onboard with them, they have
Fishkind, the economic expert. She stated if they could
use something in the City, they can't afford it, they can
certainly utilize him, utilizing that consultant group to
help them. In as much as she doesn't like everything that
is going to go on west of 1-95, that is going to happen.
City Manager Williams stated if that doesn't taint the
vision process though. He said they are a major
stakeholder in the City, as well as a landowner and a
taxpayer and they have an interest. If Council doesn't
feel like that would taint the process, he certainly would
reach out to them and he felt they would be willing to
participate in that.
City Manager Williams asked for permission to advertise for
a special meeting/public hearing regarding the animal
shelter. He would like to do that for December 11th just as
an update on where we are and what needs to go on.
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Councilwoman Rhodes asked if that was a meeting date. City
Manager Williams stated they have a meeting scheduled for
December 4th. Councilwoman Rhodes suggested they come in an
hour early. City Manager Williams guaranteed her it would
take longer than an hour. Councilwoman Rogers suggested
having it on a Saturday morning at 7:00 a.m. so nobody
would come. Councilwoman Rhodes stated including her.
City Manager Williams stated he was looking at December 11th
at 7:00 p.m. If that conflicts, they will reach out to the
Council and see what works.
11. CITIZEN COMMENTS/CORRESPONDENCE
The following citizens spoke:
William Glasser, 1703 Needle Palm Drive, stated if his
feeble memory serves him, it wasn't too long ago when the
Council was discussing whether or not they were on the hook
for roads in ParkTowne. He thought at some point in the
discussion the question was asked who cut the deal to make
the City responsible and there were blank stares all the
way across. From his standpoint, we are now on the hook
for $300,000 a year for twenty years. Councilwoman Rogers
stated $326,000. Mr. Glasser asked if for twenty years was
correct. City Manager Williams informed him they are
proposing for fifteen.
Mr. Glasser stated nobody knows who cut the deal and nobody
knows who cut the deal for the shell. It is like they are
running open loop. He asked what is going on and feels the
City needs to tighten it up and find out where to hell all
of this money is going.
Councilwoman Rogers stated there were two roads. One the
attorneys determined they were obligated to and the other
one the attorney determined we were not but a lawsuit could
be filed. She believed there was more to it than just
verbal. There was something in writing that they used as a
basis for their determination.
Mr. Glasser asked if the City Council ever voted on it.
City Manager Williams stated that is ultimate authority
with regards to Base Leg Drive.
Mr. Glasser asked if the previous Council voted on it.
Councilwoman Lichter stated three of them were there
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before. Mr. Glasser stated he got the impression
erroneously that nobody knew how the deal was cut.
Linda Small, 1629 Willow Oak Drive, stated it seems to her
the reason Councilwoman Rogers wanted the expanded audit
was to find out where the money went from the sales of the
ParkTowne property that was not applied to the debt.
Councilwoman Rogers stated that was just one of her
problems but it wasn't that specifically but that would be
identified.
Ms. Small asked why they aren't asking the former Chief of
Finance. City Manager Williams stated the revenues were
received in the General Fund and that is part of the reason
they were able to roll back the tax rate this year.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated the money went into the General
Fund and was used to pay the bills. Ms. Small stated
great, so they know who made that decision, where it was
and that it was used.
Ms. Small stated before they waste their time and money
doing an eight-hour session on strategic planning, they
need to have a vision. If they are going to use the 360
degree review process, the person you are reviewing should
not chose the people who respond or else it is worthless.
She feels one of the Council should choose.
12 . ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business to discuss, Councilwoman
Rhodes moved to adjourn. The meeting adjourned at 11:10
p.m.
Minutes submitted by:
Lisa Bloomer
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