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11-18-1982 Special/Verbatim ~ o CITY OF EDGEWATER Board of Adjustment Special Meeting November 18, 1982, 6:00 p.m. Verbatim Minutes Mr. Millard, Chairman, asked the secretary to read the minutes from the November 11, 1982 meeting pertaining to the Harold G. Brown request for a Special Exception to permit a 24-unit apartment development, at 1207 S. Ridgewood Avenue. The secretary was also asked to read a letter submitted by Mr. Carl Groepler. (These papers were distributed to Board members earlier.) Mr. Millard suggested that each member of the Board speak expressing their views on the planned project. The minutes start here. Mr. Millard: We must get all the information out and on the tape before we can go to that step. 'Jimmie. Mr. Newell: Well, the only thing I would say is I was just kinda wondering why we didn't get nothing on this from the engineers. We also got from the Fire Department that says the blue print does not provide sufficient infor- mation for them to act on. So some of these things and things tha~s been said. Mr. Millard:; I think that's true. Oh, this is a preliminary sketch plan. That may be why they haven't gotten the engineering comments. I'll let him handle that. Cecil. Mr. Roush: I would like to stress a point that I see here where we have water runoff at the present time without any swales or anything at all. What I'd like to know of the property owners, how would they remedy this is this project didn't go through. And if it didn't go through and Mr. Brown might be wanting to put a business in up there, would you make him make sure that he had swales then in order to recede the water runoffs? ? Your addressing your question to Mr.? Mr. Roush: I just want you to hold up until the Board gets done, then you can answer these questions. Mr. Millard: I guess what is being asked is, if no multi-unit dwelling IS built there and should Mr. Brown build a business building there, which he could do with out coming to the Board, we wouldn't have any control, we couldn't impose any conditions. Mr. Butt: But he'd still have to comply with the water runoff with anything he puts on there. Mr. Millard: We couldn't-- Mr. Garthwaite: The Planning Board takes care of those requirements. Mr. Millard: Yes, that's-- Mr. Wetzel: Well, I had problem with the Fire Department- have not acted on this really. And that will no doubt create traffic congestion on Magnolia Street and Neptune Street, no doubt. The shell roads will have a lot of runoff and go right down the .road there. What we need is some storm sewers. From there down to the river. Then the sanitary sewers, I understand they give trouble in that area anyway. And as somebody said, Mr. Brown can build anything he wants there. He can build-a metal building-- Mr. Millard: Anything of a permitted use in the book. o Q 2. Mr. Wetzel: How's that? Mr. Millard: He can build anything that 1S a permitted building. He can't build this. Mr. Wetzel: Yea. Well, I mean he can build a commercial building probably. And he does that, there will be a big area blacktopped, with parking lot in the back, and that will create water too. So. Mr. Millard: Yea. That's right. Bob. Mr. Garthwaite: I feel again we're being asked to put multi-family into a business district, and we're losing our business district. This town is expanding. It's going to grow. It's going south. The business is going to move south. All we're going to have is multi-family. We're not going to have a business district on U. S. 1 if we continue to allow something like this to come in. Mr. Millard: Bob, I have to comment here about the laws here. This-- we have nothing to do with that. That's already been zoned that way. We can't tell them-- Mr. Garthwaite: It's zoned business. With a special exception for multi- family. Mr. Millard: B-3 it does permit multi-family units as a special exception, so, we can't say anything or do anything about that fact. However, if you wish to grant this you have--then you have the opportunity of controlling it with any reasonable conditions, even stronger than required inthe book and required by the storm water thing. I want to point that out. The option you have here is to put conditions on the stronger, and you would get reg--- Mr. Garthwaite: (first part cannot hear) as it is to say Yes or No to this type of project, what is already zoned as a commercial zone. Why should we have to say, Okay, he can put this in but we're going to put restrictions on it. Mr. Millard: Oh, you don't have to grant it, but there's no point saying that he should not have the opportunity to do it. He has the opportunity to apply for it. That is legal. Mr. Garthwaite: I'm not saying he does not have the ?pportunity to apply for it. What I'm saying is that we have now taken our business district and slowly having it be gobbled up by R-4. Mr. Millard: I Well, that--can't do anything about that. That's beyond our power. like this Mr. Garthwaite. Okay. I don't know if something/was granted what they would do if by the sewers. It comes down through this system to Riverside Drive; its overloaded; we heard about that year s ago. We've got problems. The shell road through there--its like a culvert, asphalt culvert. Your going to have heavy rains. It's very liable to wash it all out into Neptune. Mr. Millard: Very good. Good point. Mr. Garthwaite: I'll pass. Maybe I'll have something else to say later. Mr. Millard: Sure. Okay. Mr. Butt: I have the same questions I think all the Board members have. The roads, the drains, the traffic. I want to hear what Mr. Wallace has to say to answer. Mr. Millard: Okay. Sure. We need some answers, is what we need, so we can intelligently decide which way we're going to go. Louise Martin, did you talk to anybody about your fear of the waste water or drainage or whatever that was coming down the side. Has that been cleared up? o o 3. Mrs. Martin: No, it hasn't been cleared up. I meant1to call the fellow you talked to, Terry Wadsworth, and, I too feel that we have the problem with water and sewage and it would be creating additonal problems, in road widening and traffic and lights and I feel that apartments)withl individuals they're there 24 hours a day. As to businesses, they're from 9 to 5, and there is quite a big difference in traffic as compared to apartment dwelling to business. Mr. ,Millard: Oh, thought we had another member here. Mrs. Taylor: I would like to say something. Mr. Newell is the only one who has a copy of the Fire Department's comments. I'm sorry. Mr. Butt has one. Mr. Newell: Go ahead and read that. I thought they had that. Mrs. Taylor: They should have. record) (Copy in file) (Mrs. Taylor read the comments into the Mr. Millard: I'm going to say one more time. This is a preliminary sketch plan. It has not been gone over for the final engineering requirements by the Planning Board or the City Engineers, or all that, so the comments from this Board are correct. These things are not on there yet. And we have gotten it at the preliminary sketch plan stage, which is obviously unsatis- tory for answering questions, and this has been brought up many times with the Zoning Board and Planning Board and the answer I get on this little problem is that before a builder or developer could prudently proceed with the final engineering drawings that would answer things that we've asked and everybody else has, is to hire an engineering firm and pay eight to ten thousand dollars to make the drawings-- or something like that-- Mr. Wallace: Depends on the size of the project. In this instance here, most of the projects of this magnitude will be another eight hundred to a thousand dollars. Mr. Millard: Okay. So if he didn't want to spend another thousand dollars until he had some indication from our Board that we were inclined to grant it or not to grant it. All right. Now, Mr.--everybody has a chance to speak. Last time the objectors spoke and they presented quite a few valid points. You heard tonight the resume of it and you heard the comments of the Board members. And I think you have had an opportunity to dispell some wonies or fears and doubts, or confirm them, depending on what you said -- what you plan to do, and we will all give you our attention. If you have questions maybe it will be better to jot them down and then come back and answer them. Or do you want to be interrupted? I think its easier to go through-- Mr. Wallace: If you feel it would be better that way, we'll do it. Mr. Millard:; In my experience when you're trying to present something - I had about 25 years of doing it - you've got to at one, somewhere, sometime, let the guy tell you what he's trying to say to you. When he's finished then you can ask him the questions. I'd suggest you all write them down and get back. All right, Mr. Wallace, we'll give you 20 minutes. Mr. Wallace: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ladies, and Gentlemen. If at all possible I would like to lay this in the middle of the table so we can talk around it. Last week's presentation, to go back over it one more time with it so that it's etched in everybody's mind as to exactly what it is we intend to do here. First off, let me say, this parcel is one of the few areas in Edgewater--one of the few areas that has road-street systems which isolates a parcel as great as this. In many instances you may have one or two right of ways that has a tendency to still tie it more deeply into a usage situation. In this particular portion of B-3 area is the division line at Neptune on the easterly portion of this project being presented tonight. First off, we feel that this will be for a better usage in that particular. area, because 1, we intend to improve the parcel, and by improving the parcel it has that ten- dency, and I say it on that plane, due to the fact that most any piece of land in Edgewater, outside of some areas which may be considered cow pastures at this time, your water treatment and if water and sewer is available, that treatment can be satisfactorily answered, and one being seeing that we do have these items, and with the new reply we've had from the Fire Department 4. . o o your Slamese connections on your structures is a normal procedure that has been adopted by your Standard Safety Building Code. These are items that will be picked up on your final plan, and they will be presented to whoever the City has retained as engineers for engineering services to assure that we do comply not only with the Comprehensive Plan, but with your zoning ordinances. In this particular instance, as a R-4 usage we have greater setback restrictions than we do in B-3. For instance, in B-3 that interior portion that backs up to the adjacent property, which--I believe Mr. Kline said he was the owner of that area--we have an interior side setback of 10 feet. We are 25 feet. We have a 25 ft. buffer off the Nep--Excuse me--the-- yes, Neptune Drive area. We've gone to the fact that--there's landscape buffer and a screened buffer. We intend to utilize the screened buffer. There were suggestions and conversations over the past week that possibly to help in our runoff that we put a slight berm in there. One foot; two foot. Immaterial as far as that we can still set our landscape and screened buffer areas within that. It apparently causes people to be a little more assured if they have a basic, to use the word, dike system, around the parcel, which again has a tendency to allow the retention within a definite defined area. When we take our entrances and our exits, you take your units, per se, we do meet the requirements; in this particular instance we allowed the easterly portion to deadend so that there is not a straight through traffic system where theoretically you could go a little faster than you probably ought to, which is done from time to time. Because a definite movement in order to get egress and ingress into this property, not only on Neptune but Magnolia as w~ll, U. S. 1 is considered a major artery as I understand it. High traffic. Edgewater in its usage at this time one being, your egress and ingress from U. S. 1, in my opinion, is possibly more of a hazard because of ' your excel,eration and deceleration to a defined area of some impact. And with your impact and your division of your residential, to the east, we feel that this is the best usage. Again we're utilizing 17 per- cent. 17 percent of the land has buildings on it. You take it block to block in any subdivision, in most instances, homes will exceed 30 to 35 percent of the land coverage. Therefore, in this particular portion and in all multi- family portions it has a greater restriction of how much area you can occupy with structures. When you take a situation of this area, you take your total land area, you divide it by your 1800 sq. feet per dwelling unit, as in the code of ordinance, you can get much more as far a usage is concerned, as far as units are concerned. Therefore, we have one more little add that is a benefit to Edgewater: Two parking places per unit. The parking place must be 10 x 20. Therefore, if they're 10 x 20 that's 200 sq. feet; you must have at least the same amount of backout area; that's 400 sq. ft., and when you take a project and you start figuring how many parking spaces you can comfortably get without encroaching in this manner. We feel it immediately starts cutting your usage, where you feasibly run 22 to 23 units. In this instance, to keep the green space, to keep the minimum usage, which makes it a dollar feasible point, at this point here, that with the utilization, and one being, Edgewater does not have an ordinance that requires paved parking. My opinion is that residential areas, which most of our residential areas don't have paved streets, but still, it causes the developers, the owners of the surrounding areas to upgrade. If we go in and we put in paving. We speak of shell drives. When we travel down Florida Shores Blvd., or anybody else, 35 miles an hbur--y6p may be exceeding the speed--you will have dust. In a controlled area in a development there is no earthly reason legally to go over 10 miles an hour. We were utilizing this shell area as absorp- tion, as an extra. We can go one step further, working with this Board and the City and with the Engineers, Water and Street Departments. We can pave that drive-through area that everybody seems to have question on. At that point, and absorbing your ground water, I spoke of it last week. It's called trench drains. You continue to have your drainage swale areas for retention on the sides. You go a little further. In essense what a trench drain is is a glorified septic tank without the sewage. It has a drain field. It's all done below the pavement. So regardless of whether you have QO percent pavement or you have 70 percent pavement, the ground water can be taken care of, and engineered on each individual parcel. This is where your multi- family again is more restrictive because it causes, not only the owner, but the developer to comply much greater than he does in any subdivision, any sub- division acts we have on our books. We go into ? , o~r 'setbacks aFe less? ; S. , .0 o we still have the same 40 ~eet on U. S. 1. We have the2S feet on Magnolia we have the 20 feet on Neptune; we have 10 feet backing up on Totem Park, Block 14. Again we try to use the extremities of it; keep well within the defined boundaries and to improve. And regardless, well planned multi- family areas along with residential usage does supply your business oriented areas. A business cannot survive unless it has people. You must have defined areas. In most instances, you take and periodically put your R-4 usage along mainly within your B-3 and utilizing it as a buffer, and I don't use the word downgrade, and grade from starting at the very extreme Heavy industrial, light industrial, all your business zones, multi- family residential, R-4, R-S, down to R-3 and R-2 type situations. This is very much thought of, in not only your county but your State level of planning. So therefore, as a buffer, in this particular area,in the isolated parcel that is there, we feel this is the best usage. I don't wish to make it appear that we're doing anything but planning with the participation of this Board, and meeting the requirements to construct an R-4 type structure. I made this little presentation just for this Board to show what a B-3 zoned area does. This particular area, rather than 48 organized parking areas, we have 72, totally legal. We're five feet within our boundaries. In this portion there is no parking within ten feet; therefore we have stepped back further. Again you put one 13,000 or two in this usage 6 . o o complies with your parking. In my opInIon, you lose all your trees, you start over from ground zero. We've gone to great extent to comply and save as much of the natural vegetation called trees, evergreens Mr. Millard: Excuse me. Would you explain that one more time? What is it you're showing up here as compared to the one down below? Mr. Wallace: What I'm doing here, Sir~ is showing what a B-3 usage IS. Mr. Millard: Is that B-3 or R-4? Mr. Wallace: This is B-3, Sir. This IS business commercial In your organized B-3 area. Mr. Millard: Now I get you. Okay. Mr. Wallace: This type of situation could be put--what I did-- was to take and show the maximum usage of this parcel in reference to how much nicer in our opinion it is to do R-4 than to stay in the B-3-- Mr. Millard: You mean the owner of this property could go to--whoever owned this land could build a B-3 operation like that with all that paving? Mr. Wallace: Yes, Sir. Mr. Millard: The next question-- Mr. Wallace: And again, you have your landscape buffers as required by your zoning. We have our 40 ft. setbacks; in this instance'~ the man could have come to 10 feet, but in this instance they cause loading behind it; behind the building, between there in the B-3 and the buffer, so that it's not out of this area. This would be a nicer way of utilizing B-3 where it could be reversed and all your loading could be in this area. That's extremes. That's not a nice way to talk about it. Mr. Millard: Does that have the same exits as the one here that we're looking at? Mr. Wallace: This exit here, in this particular instance could be anywhere along Neptune. We have our entrance here, it could be on Magnolia. There again it could go like I spoke earlier. Straight down Neptune and possibly cause a speed strip. This we tried to eliminate. But I'm showing how legally it could be done. There again you're using almo~t 22 percent land usage in this particular portion. Mr. Millard: That's not what your gOIng to do though? This IS -- no Mr. Wallace: No, Sir. We wish to build a 17 percent usage, utilizing 42--excuse me--48 parking spaces, two per unit, rather than going into an existing B-3 usage, and I'm just indicating this so that we can see a slight difference it it were justified as to what could go, totally legal, in reference to something that is nice, and as far as transient, my opinion on that is, people thinking of transient, you're looking at possibly, and not to pick out any segment of the country, they can be cane growers, they can be tomato~ pickers, they can be etc., etc., and everybody has a type of business. When you look at organizations like this, when you're going into multi-family, first off, lending has control, when you go conventional. With a larger unit of 750 sq. ft., this being 864, again, allowing its own laundry, utility areas within each unit, there are no other, to my knowledge, R-4 studies that has been done in Edgewater that offer this situation, to the public, to the owners, to renters, what- ever it may be. I feel that we have utilized this to an advantage, and I don't feel that we have done anything that you can comply greater than what the ordinance of Edgewater has on its books today. If you have any questions I'd be happy -- Mr. Millard: Yes, I've got some questions. You said several times that whatever goes In here must comply with the building code, the comprehensive plan and all the zoning ordinances that apply to it, including the storm water retention. Now the question has been raised; it's a very valid one. What guarantee would we have that-~the community have and the Board and o o 7. Edgewater as a whole have that these things were being met. I know you should comply with them. What I want to know is who guarantees they are complied with? Is there a bond that would be established? what's the procedure? Who know-- that that Or Mr. Wallace: In this particular instance- -let's talk, about this one and not around the city, because you can get into 59 different directions out there. One being, the man wishes to go multi-family. In this particular area you have an ordinance that has been passed by the City of Edgewater that those items must be complied with prior to final, and then again prior to your co which is finishing your project and people are allowed to move into it. Mr. Millard: Do you want to translate that? I think I know what you mean, but what do you mean by ? Mr. Wallace: When you speak of it may be--finishing construction. your home, or business, or whatever Somebody is ready to move in Mr. Millard: Whoa--just a minute. Isn't there a final plan? This is just a sketch plan that we have. Mr. Wallace: Yes, sir. What I was 8peaking of is one step further Mr. Millard: Let's go back to the plan. Who specifies all these things we're talking about and asking about; about the storm water retention and the fire hydrants and the paved roads and the drainage and the retention ponds--when does that get approved and who approves it? That's the missing link in this whole damn thing. Mr. Wallace: It will be approved prlor to final site plan approval. Mr. Millard: By whom? Mr. Wallace: By whoever the engineering department that has been obtained by the City of Edgewater, and apparently the City has trust in somebody, I believe its called Briley, Wild, and they Mr. Millard:; Who tells us? Who reassures us and says, Yes, the sewers are good, or no they're not? Mr. Wallace: As I understand it, that with coordination with the City of Edgewater and the Water Sewer Department, with the Engineering Department, again Briley, Wild, go over with the developers to assure that we can comply we can utilize Mr. Millard: Well, somebody has to prove what they say they're going to do. Who does that? Mr. Wallace: When we go to final site plan approval we must comply with the ordinances and as its written in here under site plan approval of the items Mr. Millard:; Is that the Planning Board? Mr. Wallace: On page 1635. These items must be complied with. Mr. Millard: Okay. What we want to know is, we have been given a pre- liminary sketch plan without complete information for a general comment from us. We ~re charged in the article 9 of Board of Adjustment to seeing that all requirements have been or will be met from article - back to 8 - and all the way back down to 7 and 6. All that is is the complete building code and the zoning code. Obviously we are not individually equipped to go out and measure and see where the hydrants go and all those other things. But I'm trying to get on the record a statement as to what guarantee do these people have or this Board that these nice things that you said that you're going to do will be done. Now that's what we want to find out. If you can cut through all the stuff and get to it-- Mr. Wallace: First we must comply with the City Ordinance; saying that we have complied we've gotten final site plan approval and we can go for con- struction. o o 8. Mr. Millard: Who says that plan is right? The Planning Commission? Mr. Wallace: Yes, Sir. It meets those Code requirements. Mr. Millard: Where does the building department come in this? Mr. Wallace: They come into it when the permit is pulled. There again, like I stated last week, it is a policing action. Whoever may be the building official responsibility for the City -- Mr. Millard: How does he work? Does he go up and inspect--let us assume for a moment that the planning board planner says everything is right; yes, you have put down what you're going to do. Do you have to put up a bond? A performance Bond? Mr. Wallace: Only in subdivisions, as I understand it. Mr. Millard: Well, then at that point the Planning Board has recommended to the Council, and the Council has approved? Is that correct? Mr. Wallace: I don't know that they-- Mr. Millard: Well, it doesn't go from us to the planning board and then it gets built? The Planning Board must make some recommendation on it. Is that correct? Mr. Wallace: Yes, Sir. Mr. Millard: OKay. So there are many people who are going to looking, and watching and checking on this now. The Building Inspector gets the word that its made it through those s~eps, if it has. And, what does he do, inspect during every step and stage of construction? Mr. Wallace: There are normally five stages. Mr. Mill~rd: Five stages. Can you enlighten us? Mr. Wallace: All right, Sir. One, immediately after your foundations are poured--that's the foundation right there--you have a registered surveyor come in, locate the buildings, and it's called an "as built" drawing of exactly how your structure is showing that it does comply with your setbacks, the distance between structures-- Mr. Millard: And the building inspector comes and checks that out? Mr. Wallace: I don't know that he goes out there with a tape measure, but normally they accept a certified land surveyor's plat. Mr. Millard: Oh. Okay. Go on. Number 3. Mr. Wallace: From that point there the build up this floor area and they build the first floor walls, they come in and they ask for a inspection. That's to assure that you've worked with steel, your horizontal steel and your beams, and any of your filled cell situations you may have-- they do meet those requirements--They do tie completely from the tie beam to the foundation, rather than having some boards possibly and the direction is changed, walls, etc. Okay. From that point there your hollow core planks which we're indicating at this time, which is an 8" precast hollow core plank will be set on top of these beams. In order to do that the frame will come in. We'll place it onto this-- Mr. Millard: Okay. I'll assume that he get through all of those stepS,fj!. and its okay. At what point, and who's going to check it, does this drainage problem get taken care of or are we going to joist around on that. Are you going to take care of it? Mr. Wallace: Well, all right. Mr. Millard: Let me put a goal on here. There's a certain amount of water coming off of this land now running down these streets and its causing everybody fits and I don't blame them. Now, are you going to cut down that amount of water, and if so, how much can you cut down coming off the Brown property. Give me a good estimate. o o 9 . Mr. Wallace: On Mr. Brown's property in question, as we stated previously the first thing we will do is put down our, screen buffer. In that instance there, you so saw a slight round in retention to absorb and hold it on the property, that is the time to do it. We need to take care of the front of this first. This I offered the first part of last week. Which--its good relations as well as All right. From that point there your layout of your structure-- Mr. Millard: Excuse me. Would you hold that up, please, and let him point to where he's going to put this earth berm. Let's see what he's talking about. I'm beginning to get the full picture. Mr. Wallace: I'm using it as a possible suggestion. Along our buffered screened area here we know its a low ground absorption. Put a slight mound there. Mr. Millard: Two feet? Mr. Wallace: If you care for two feet. We must be careful when we get into these areas here, because when we allow, due to the right of way and road sections and everything, so much height and foliage-- Mr. Newell~ Then after you build that up then all you're going to do 1S pitch it off into that street there going out of there. Mr. Wallace: When you talk about pitching off into the street, the street is already there, and its under--- Mr. Newell: I'm talking about the one you're putting in here. The entrance side to that=- Mr. Millard: How do you keep that from-- Mr. Wallace: When you do swale retentions you put--not a cover that we see down the highway, put a drainage pipe so that you can cross over, and it does maintain and seek its own level throughout the whole retention of that area. Mr. Millard: Well, he's asking how do you keep the water from running out into the road. Is it going to have a dip in it to stop-- Mr. Wallace: In most instances you do allow to put a retention swale in so that it does hold to it to a degree on it. Now if you have two inches of rain Edgewater's going to be flooded anyway. It's immaterial whether it comes from Mr. Brown-- Mr. Millard: Go ahead. Mr. Wallace. Thank you. At that point there we will go to the point of trying to save any undue hardship, and I again state, there are more in these hardships than just Mr. Brown's property. But it seems to me that seeing that we wish to develop, and wish to improve, any improvement is better than as it stands. Mr. Millard: Is there someway to slow or alter the water coming off the paved area of the air conditioning property? In other words, not to have that add to this. Can that be taken care of? Mr. Wallace: Suppose we continue our raised area. If everybody went down-- Mr. Newell: There's no where for that to go. Mr. Wallace: If everybody went down and took a look at it, the whole area is basically low in comparison to U. S. 1. 1957 that road was just leveled-- (end df tape.) Mr. Wallace: (continuing on next side of tape) probably prior to there being residents in that area now. So in turn, it is our intent now to improve the property. Mr. Newell: If you build that up above road level where's all the water that comes across his driveway there, Brown's Air Conditioning now, where's that going to go? Right down that street? o o 10. Nr. Wallace: No, Slr. It should--when we talk of retaining-- Mr. Newell: It's already blacktopped. Mr. Wallace: That's out here, Sir. That's out here. This is U. S. 1 here. Mr. Newell: Which lS U. S. I on that? Down this side? Mr. Wallace: Yes, sir. Mr. Newell: Well, that's what I'm referring to. Where he's already got blacktop, now this water comes across there pretty heavy-- Mr. Wallace: I understand it seeps over into that area. Mr. Newell: And goes down As I understand it shot across there and filled that up enough~ to go inside of one of them cars. Mr. Wallace: When you bring these structures up to the road height we spoke of, first off, when you build these areas right off the bat it allows greater retention, which is a natural buffer. Mr. Millard: Where is the water going to go from Mr. Brown's air condition- ing paved lots? Is that gonna stay on his lot? Mr. Wallace:; By law it should. And the only way at this point that we can cause a direction and correct the problem is to improve the property. Mr. Millard: The last time it rained I went out there and went all around the area, and I parked my car looking right down that existing old asphalt road, and that's a straight shot to U. S. 1. It's like a sewer that water comes flowing down. Unless you could stop that road somehow. Mr. Wallace: I don't know that Edgewater has it on its books but I under- stand they're working on it in the Planning and Zoning to allow your business- es a period of time -- this is not on the books as I understand yet but they are working on it. So that older existing situations that had no compliance and nothing really as far as restrictions were concerned to have a justified period of time. Maybe even two years, maybe three years, to comply and upgrade so that we can take care of some more of these problems. What we're doing here in this metes and bounds parcel here is taking care of our pro- blem. Once an ordinance is made you can cause other problem areas to comply. And until that gets in that direction, its a little bit rough all the way around. Mr. Butt: What level do these buildings have to be? Is that 16 inches above the crown of the road? Mr. Wallace: Yes, sir. You're looking at Magnolia and we're looking at Neptune. Mr. Butt: These elevations that ar~~shown on here now are (Cannot understand rest of Mr. Butts question nor Mr. Wallace's answer.) Mr. Butt: Not what it's gOlng to be? Mr. Wallace: No, sir. Mr. Butt: Now, are these, these two roads-- Mr. Wallace: It states here if you read right down the center of the road it tells you what they are. Mr. Butt: All right. Neptune is 12. Right here you've got almost 14. How do you know what one to go by, as far as-- Mr. Wallace: This particular structure will work from these elevations here. This particular structure will work from these. And these being in compli- ance will more than likely work together. o o 11. Mr. Butt: Because of the direction. Mr. Wallace: It is normal procedures. There's nothing been presented on this plan that's anything but greater than your requirements make it. Mr. Butt: I was just curious as to what road--how they determine it. Mr. Wallace: It has direction of the parcel in the roadway. There again, its much greater restriction because we do have three sides 90 percent with road risings, so that caused a little bit more restrictions. Mr. Garthwaite: Ts Mr. Brown building this to own or 1S he going to build it himself? Mr. Wallace: As I understand it Mr. Brown intends to construct it, and keep it himself. Now-- Mr. Garthwaite: Do you have any idea what he's gOlng to charge for an apartment? Mr. Wallace: No, Sir, I don't, but based on the square footage-- Mr. Millard: Yes, he's asking rental prices; how much will those be? Mr. Wallace: All right. You go into--lets take areas we do have some rental in at this time. They run anywhere in some of your lesser defined areas, that are multi-family units, and as I understand it they run from anywhere from $325 to $375. There again, you're some distance away from a neighborhood, or a highway business orientation, so in essense your area has to do with how much it rents for, as I understand it. Mr. Millard: I don't think you're gOlng to get many low income people at that price. Mr. Wallace: First,off, you have commitments to make with lending. Mr. Millard: What's the total price of this project? Mr. Wallace: The project as it stands now is in the neighborhood of $650,000. If that's cheap-- Mr. Butt: For 24 units Mr. Roush: Will these apartments be restricted to elderly people, or to children. Mr. Wallace: With the units in would be Well, I don't know how the document is written up. design they are, in my opinion, and with the size of the comparison with what you can rent, the elderly on a ground level very much -- Mr. Roush: They would be nice for senior citizens but if you get like families in there there's going to be a lot of other things for these people to put up with. Mr. Wallace: You get larger families, not against segregation or causing one any more or less than another, when your pricing in an area at a point in my opinion is that it does cause restriction right off the bat. Now you have many people, let's not segregate again, that are middle aged or my age that may have three or four youngsters, but can you get three or four youngsters in a two bedroom apartment? Mr. Butt: About the Fire Chief's comments about stand p1pes and fire hydrants, what is going to be done on that? Mr. Wallace: First, stand pipes in this particular instance, the Fire Chief, or whoever it was, use a siamese connection. They~re attached on the wall of each structure. That/means rather than all of your trucks and vehicles running back around in this neighborhood areas and what have you, they run up to a designated area. It may be in building C, over in o o 12. the back corner. They run up there with their hose, hook it up, turn the valve and they've got water to each of the engines. There again these units are designed in such manner to isolate and unfortunate situation called fires, within its own unit, because we have concrete, on the ceilings, on the floor, we have concrete on each wall. Therefore with the length of the structures, again where you don't have some of your duplex structures type situations, or maybe some of your single families, we have fire stops by Code-- every 50 feet. So you do have divisions. You do have segregation of smoke inhalation, you have possible tfavelling of draft, which you're probably aware of, and therefore, we've gone to great difficulty and ex- treme to cause something to be a little bit more useful. We spoke (End of tape) (Tape 2) --rather than coming down the staircase or what have you. Again, we're look- ing at the saf~ty of it. There again, your safety, and in your design, in your layout usage we feel is just as important as your land usage, there again looking at the safety of its clientel, whether it be homes or rented. Mr. Garthwaite: That second floor cinder block, or what? Mr. Wallace: The second floor is cinder block. Mr. Millard: Now, do we have a drawing of how this building will look? To show. I don't think anybody out there has seen it. Perhaps you'd like to hold it up. (Some conversation here inaudible, while the print 1S belling held up.) Mr. Wallace:--which the staircase which we have in the front in this instance which faces your interior, showing your stairs, your landings, and intermediate stairs, rather than one flight you do have a stop landing in between. The-- your Venetian apartments over onthe beachside--over on the Causeway--over on the beachside in New Smyrna that is just off of Third Avenue there on Penin- sula Drive, and you can see how effective that is in that area. Again you have got a greater----?----. We have also indicated on the extreme right of the elevation here, which we show, and indicate belconies continous. Each area has its own belcony area on the backside. It has the division where you are segregated to your own area; you don't walk from one end to the other. We're"utilizing the front portion as a continuous walkway with plantings and stairs, as required by law. And as you see with the units, 864 sq. feet with the living and the dining areas and the snack bar areas, your utility room. Your utility is 9'8" by 5'6". That's larger than most of them. Again you have your washer and dryers, your hot water heaters, etc. etc., all your normal utilities in central area provision. Full bath, your bedroom areas are 12' x 12' and la' x l2"s. Mr. Millard: All right. Thank you. I have a question. Someone is worried about the garbage cans, instead of dumpsters. Is the plan to have dumpsters or have garbage cans? Mr. Wallace: No, Sir. I have indicated on the site plan--I believe Mr. Groeppler has exactly the same copy. t We indicate the closed cypress fence, landscapped trash areas in this area here and in this area here (indicating). Mr. Millard: Are they all gOlng to be 1n one spot, or how's that? Mr. Wallace: Beg pardon, Sir? Mr. Millard: Are they all gOlng to be in one area? Mr. Wallace: Yes, Sir. Mr. Millard: Screened? Mr. Wallace: Yes, Sir. Mr. Millard: Individual cans? Mr. Wallace: Yes, Sir. We don't plan on dumpsters. We feel in your smaller multi-family areas, one being seeing the City of Edgewater does not have direct provisions for a dumpster type situation, its a ~eaied 13. o o situation by individuals in the County. We feel, first off, by isolating small compact areas with high screened landscaped areas that it we dd allow your can storage at that point. Mr. Millard: How are these people going to take their garbage out? I want to know. Are they going to have to walk down the end of the hallway and downstairs and across the yard to get to it? Mr. Wallace: That's like most other multi-families. Yes, they do. Mr. Millard: They don't have a place where they can have it-- Mr. Wallace: It's not designed--Edgewater doesn't have an ordinance ln multi-family"for that. It must be a designed area. Mr. Millard: According to the police chief, he doesn't anticipate any problem with traffic congestion; it's what it says here. The 24-units say each of them have one car at the minimum, some of them will have two, 12 - there are 24 hours in a day, but you won't be using them at night. Say for 18 hours there would be traffic. That gets down to about a car or a car and a half an hour. I guess that's why he said that. And they wouldn't go on Orange Avenue. This would just go on Neptune or Magnolia. The people want to know why Harold Brown isn't here and I think it's cause he couldn't answer the questions. Mr. Wallace: Well, Sir, he has hired an architech to procure the plans, for site plan approval, who I work with and who I am directly under in direction, and as far as presentation of plans, this is my business. Mr. Millard: But what you agree to Mr. Brown agrees to. Is that right? Mr. Wallace: Yes, Sir. I stated that earlier, so we'd have no problem. Mr. Millard: And the sewers, I have report. I talked with Terry Wadsworth about that and he was very positive that this line, Or whatever he's referring to, I'm not a technician, was entirely adequate to handle it. Now, that's what I was told. Somebody said that what we had wouldn't handle it, and I'd like to know how they know that. Did you say--who said that the existing 8" pipe wouldn't handle it. Mr. Butt: Bob said that (cannot understand rest of sentence.) Mr. Millard: Edgewater's man said it could be done. ? ? Mrs. Martin: (Cannot understand the voices here) Where is the main line for that area? You mean--jack is at the bottom of Merrimac. Mr. Newell: Where does that go down--down Riverside? Isn't that where you had trouble? (Several voices at one time here.) Mrs. Martin: I'm still having trouble. (Missed part of this here - Mr. Wallace, Mr. Newell and Mrs. Martin all talking.) Mrs. Martin: I've waited too for the system to pick it up, but it hasn't. I have to call them and tell them. But I've got rumblings in my shower. Backups. ? This has been going on since 1975. Mr. Newell: And they say they can handle it and you say its still there. yet Mr. Millard:Well, its not tied up/to hers. Mr. Newell: Mrs. Martin; Mr. Millard: This is going down to Riverside so what Of course it ties in. He says it doesn't go to your (?) Mrs. Martin: No, it backs up when the system goes out at Merrimac, which is what happens, it backs up south. Mr. Millard: Terry Wadsworth says that your problem and this unit here were not tied together at all. This goes somewhere else. Call him. Talk to him. o o 14. Mrs. Martin: I'd like to know where. Mr. Millard: Probably downhill. That's the only way that I know. Mr. Garthwaite: to the sewer system coming out of this place, the problem is (cannot understand the rest of these comments.) Mr. Millard: Well, do you know which way it goes from here? Mr. Butt: It shows it running down Mrs. Martin: It goes north As I understand it, Mr. Wallace: /There's a lift station on Riverside Drive. Mrs. Martin: Right. At Merrimac. Mr. Wallace: Right, and you've got gravity flow to that system as depicted on this plan here, as far as we can carry right on the manhole that the line goes in a north direction unclear as to exactly what was said.) Mrs. Martin: We've had--the manhole--come up to the manhole cover and flood Riverside Drive. Do you have any minutes of the Council in '75? manhole it. It states (?) (this is Mr. Millard: We're still open for questions. Storm sewers, you wanted to ask about those. Storm sewers. Can you do a storm sewer. Somebody-- Mr. Wallace: Storm sewers, unless you've got it somewhere. Edgewater has no provisions for storm sewers that I understand. Mr. Wetzel: There are some in town. Mr. Wallace: In some of these different areas, but not in this immediate area or near the except in the center line of your State. The road department which has their own system which they're trying to take care of. Mr. Roush: Park system. Mr. Wetzel: Well, there can be one put ln from this property right down to the river. Well, it seems like Mr. Butt: /The idea is to try to retain water from throwing out into the rlver. Some conversation here I could not distinguish voices or what is being said. Mr. Wallace: In my opinion, Mr. Chairman, that should the City be able to work with us in this project here, and with the neighborhood area, there are right of way easements, and I understand that there are somewhere around 15 feet of right of way each side of your road area, somewhere in the neighborhood--that its possible that retention swales in front of each and everybody's right of way could take care of the City's water would be most in order to help retain some of it. But there again, everybody doesn't want a swale in their front yard, but yet we're trying to put them in there to comply. Mr. Millard: More questions? (Members talking - cannot hear.) Mr. Millard: Time for wrap up. (More talking among members - cannot hear.) Mr. Roush: Does everybody down through there have septic tanks? Mr. Garthwaite: No (Cannot hear comments.) Mr. Newell: (Some conversation reo lift station) o o 15. Mr. Millard: I think we're at a point here where we've got to wrap up and summarize it. The situation is that on a preliminary you don't know what they're going to do, but you get told they're going to do it. So, how about a novel solution? That we'll give them a preliminary approval to do it if _ and then put down every-- (Loud laughter from the audience.) Mr. Millard: You don't have to stay. All right. Now. (More comments from the audience.) (Gentleman from the audience): He's right. We don't have to stay. But I want to know before I walk out of here is, why the hell isn't Brown here? That man sits right there and he says, I think, I suppose, maybe, I guess. He's not actually answered a question. Why the hell isn't the man whose going to be putting up 24 units down here to give us the answers to those questions right here and now. I'm here. I own two houses on that street and they're talking about building right behind my home. Now I'm concerned and I've not missed a meeting. And I intend tobe here. Why the hell isn't the man whose putting up 24 units here to answer these questions? I've said my say and I would waste my time here, because this thing is a lot o~ bullshit. (Applause from audience.) Mr. Millard: Any more outbursts? (Woman from audience.) Yes. Nothing will justify. If he had a garden of Eden there. Nothing will justify all that traffic going on this deadend street. As soon as you have - do you have any other circle or drive in Edgewater where you allow a development like that. Usually these circles are protected from anything like that. Mr. Millard: I can't answer that. We have a problem in that a man has applied for it legally and properly. And as I tried to express a number of times (interruptions from audience)--unless we have-- Mr. Groeppler: It's legally and properly, but its a special exception. Now its not a hardship case. Now I wrote a letter ------?-------, DUt to me special exception, its a hardship case, like', a mother and daughter needed to build (cannot understand rest) Mr. Millard: That would be a variance. I'm trying to go through what we have to go through~ and its not always possible to please everybody. But if you listen to what I'm saying carefully as I go through" this, I'm doing my level best, and this Board is doing its level best to protect everybody's rights. Now you're not going to be able to just say, We don't like Mr. Brown, therefore he can't build something. We have to go at it in a very (interruptions by audience.) his Mr. Millard: Yom:;see,/p~rsonality has nothing to do with this case, really. I have to deal with the facts. This is going on tape. It's a court record. If we step on his rights anymore than we stepped on yours, the case ~ould be thrown out. Mr. Groeppler: I'd like to make one comment seeing that this is going on tape. I was told when this hearing started way back, all the abutting property owners were notified. I could tell you right now all abutting property owners were not notified. Mr. Millard: Who did we miss? Mr. Groeppler: The fellow that just walked out. Mr. Millard: Does he own land that actually touches onto this? Mr. Newell: Two lots. Mr. Groeppler: This might leave you off the hook, but the City has faltered. Mr. Millard: Well, of course, he was here. o o 16. Mr. Groeppler: He was here but he was never properly notified. Mr. Millard: How did that happen? Mr. Newell: I think we should have a vote-- Mrs. Taylor: Mr. Wallace and I both checked, and his list checked against my list. I don't know the man's name, so I can't say. I don't have the list with me. Mr. Millard: What I was trying to say, and try to do my job. If you should want to give them a preliminary approval on a preliminary plan, but you attach all the conditions that we've talked about--that they must be met before it could be occupied or approved. Now that would be one way to go. If you give them a chance to come up with the answers on the eingineering drawing. That they have to spend another thousand dollars on. And then we would also put it this way: Provided the Building Department, the Planning Board and all of our Department Heads approve the answers and the plans that they say they will do when theYlJput it on paper. Now as I understand it, the biggest objections all revolve around the drainage, and the contemplated traffic. Voices from audience: And the garbage. Mr. Millard: And the garbage. And the garbage. Voices: Compatibility? Mr. Millard: I don't think the garbage is going to be much of a problem. Its controlled. (Everyone talking.) Mr. Millard: He's talking. Can't even see who it is. Oh, here you are. Who's talking? Voice: The man who walked out of here can see 48 garbage cans setting in his back yard. Mr. Millard: Oh, I hope he doesn't ever see that. We can put--(interruptions) you see, when we--I have to explain one more time--conditions are binding. He cannot occupy that building if it isn't--he cannot occupy it--he cannot do anything until every single condition is carried out and completed. That's the power we have to compell him to do things. Another thing we could do is to approve it like it is or put conditions on it. (Constant interruptions from audience.) Voice: (Com~enting that the audience was not allowed to add any more comments.) (Commented that Mr. Wallace was given 20 minutes and talked for 45 min.) Compatibility. We just do not think multi-family/homes is compatible. Mr. Millard: It's all written down and we've had it drilled into us. Voice: If we had known he would have 50 minutes on the floor we would have had legal representation here tonight. Mr. Millard: Well, I wanted him to tell me what he was gOlng to do about your objections. That's the way it goes. Mr. Groeppler: He didn't satisfy my curiosity. I don't think he satisfied yours either, cause you kept on asking him. He never did actually said-- Voice: Now you want to give him permission. Mr. Millard: Do what? Voice: You want to let him go ahead and start. Mr. Millard: No. or not. And the don't want us to duty. I'm going to see if the Board wants to impose conditions only way to do that is to talk about them. Now if you talk about them, they your-te stopping us from doing our V0ice: Mr. Millard, you always talk~ to your board on how to proceed with a preliminary approval. Are you going to talk"" to them on 1.7 . o o how not to approve it? Do you always take both sides of a story? Mr. Millard: Don't worry. I've been doing this for a while. But I've gotto do it each time. If I open my mouth and I say anything that you construe is pro doing it, you immediately start yelling. Yet if I say something con, everybody's quiet and nice. So I'm trying to be fair. I can't be fair with these continual emotional outbursts. Let me explain, the emotional outbursts don't pursuade us. In fact they might, somehow unconsciously change our mind. I'm trying to do it carefully and fair, and I cannot do it if I'm going to have outbursts saying we don't know what we're doing; we're going to ruin the town, and so forth. Those things are not true. We're not going to ruin the town. What we're gonna do, if it is approved, and I didn't say its approved, we're going to attach conditions. All right. Before we can decide what conditions are we going to attach--if the conditions don't seem to be enough, then the board will not approve it. We all have the same vote. Voice: I understand the back of these buildings will face Magnolia and Neptune Drive. Mr. Millard: Is that right? Mr. Wallace: Each 'of your units have a rear balcony and patio area. It does face Magnolia and it does face Neptune. Voice: Is there going to entrances from the rear? Mr. Wallace: No, Sir. There are patio and balcony areas. Voice: There's no entrance there? Mr. Wallace. No. (Cannot understand - geveral voices at once.) Mr. Wallace: ------- and their not sitting anywhere near anybody's property. Voice: Thanks. Mr. Millard: How high is that? Mr. Wallace: To comply with Edgewater's ordinance it must be 6 ft. high. Mr. Millard: It will keep growing? Mr. Wallace: Cypress fence won't, but the planting and hedges around it could be (cannot understand) Mr. Millard: Did he reach all of you - there will be plantings that will grow. Six foot high plantings and they get higher and higher. Mr. Millard: I'll ask the Board. What conditions--I'm saying if. If you granted it, what conditions would you want to put on it? That's where we are now. If we can't find any conditions to cure the objections, then you have to make a decision within your soul and heart as to what is the right thing to do, without regard to pressure from --I'm hopeful that conditions could be attached that would allow it. I think it's an improvement. Much better than a B-3. Mr. Wet2el: Well, one thing about it, thats B-3 all the way down along there and if we just put a little housing development here and another there---- Mrs. Martin: I don't think we're going to have much B-3 left. We~ve had three or four already to multi-families. Mr. Millard: Sure make Edgewater look a lot nicer on U.S. 1 if you see buildings like this instead of a lot of commercial rental buildings. Members all talking - cannot hear each and every comment clearly. Mr. Millard: Alright. Is there -- Mr. Garthwaite: There's questions--- Mr. Millard: Do you think it is possible to put conditions on that would answer -- we've got to talk to that. o o 18. Voices in background - Mr. Wetzel -- I'd like to see them on the drawing. (Members looking over plans and commenting - cannot hear) Mrs. Martin: that stuff. The others didn't have the problems of water runoff and all The other builder had it built so it ran into the middle. Mr. Millard: How do you feel? Do you feel it can be done or not done with conditions? Mr. Newell: I'd rather -- cannot hear rest of his comment. Mr. Millard: Let me take a straw vote-- Mr. Newell: The water has to have someplace to go Mrs Martin: It's too low. Then they have to build it up then you've got drainage. We already have drainage when its low. Mr. Millard: So we're going to have to keep it in somehow. Mrs. Martin: We had one project. Remember they built it so it drained to middle land somehow, over on the back street. Mr. Millard: We've got just one little step here. Do we want to tell . these people that we can't decide from this plan, when I say people, I mean group. Do we want to tell them that this doesn't tell us, but that if we got a drawing or a plan that's up to the engineering stage- what are they called? You know more about that than I do. What do they call it when the plan really has everything on it locked in? set of Mr. Wallace: The final/site plans? Mr. Millard: dollar~.' Yes, the final set -- and that set costs about another thousand And that cost you another thousand? Cannot hear Mr. Wallace's answer. Mr. Newell: I think we ought to vote on it. Mr. Butt: Give a yea or nay. Without-- Mrs. Martin: Without the conditions? Mr. Millard: Well, we've got to put conditions. I would never -- I mean, we've got to put everything in there. For one thing, pave those damn shell roads. Take care of those garbage cans. That's been quite a problem. How many are there. 24 or 48? Mrs. Martin: 48. Mr. Millard: So that would take care of that. (Mr. Wallace was discussing dumpsters, but couldn't hear all of his comments.) Mrs. Martin: We can't take a vote as to whether we're in favor of it being R-4 instead of B-3? That isn't our problem. Mr. Millard: Yea, it is R-4, if we pass it. See, this is not a zoning matter. This is granting him the right to build the thing in there. It is already zoned for it, if we grant it. If we don't grant it he isn't going to do it. He's going to go to business and he's going to pave the whole area, and you're going to see all kind of junk and trucks coming in and out. Mr. Garthwaite, Newell and Martin talking - re density. Mrs. Martin: It's too much for Edgewater. Mr. Newell: ------? that would still be our problem. Mrs. Martin: Right Mr. Newell - ------? he'd still have to comply. o o 19. Mr. Millard: Let me just take a general-- Mr. Newell: Why, then are we giving so many of these other little businesses up here on I such a hard time in trying to make them comply with things. If we can't make them comply with them why are we making these up here. You answer me that? Mr. Wetzel: What do you have reference to? Mr. Newell: In reference that if something went in there as a business district. Mr. Wetzel: What do you say we pass on what we do have. (All members talking at once.) They have to apply to us to have it changed, but Mr. Butt: /There's a list of 20 to 30 things he could put in there and he wouldn't have to corne before us at all. Mr. Newell: But it would still have to comply, wouldn't it? Mr. Butt: Oh, sure. do water retention. its pro then figure to worry about it. No matter what there's put in there they've got to I think we ought to take a yea or nay vote, and if out our conditions, and if its not then we don't have Mr. Millard: Okay. Let me--this is just a straw vote thing here. If we can --if we can devise the right conditions and they are strict and tough and can be followed up, how many people would go for that? Mr. Newell: Millard, I think you're pushing. I think it ought just to be a vote. I think you're just trying to feel around wondering whos going to go for it and whose going to vote against it. I don't think you're being fair. Mr. Millard: I'm trying to be correct. How can you vote on it unless you write the conditions. Mr. Newell: Let me ask you one thing. If you feel around everybody and find out they're going to vote against it, what are you going to do? Postpone it until some other time, or something. What are you going to do then? Mr. Millard: Jimmie, you know I'm not. Mr. Newell: Well. Don't get me wrong. I'm just getting that feeling. Mr. Millard: How can you vote on it unless you say what you're voting on? Now if we're not going to vote -- if you vote yes or no, that yes isn't clear, that's no conditions, and if you vote no, you don't know what you would have voted for if you had known the conditions. That's my problem. Mr. Garthwaite: We can just vote yes with conditions or no. Mr. Millard: Preliminary plans are incomplete. Mr. Newell: Then these conditions, throw them in, and if it goes through they're there. That would be my feelings. Mr. Millard: That's what I was trying to get to. Mr. Martin: If the first vote was yes, with conditions, then you could go into the conditions. If we got enough yeses. Mr. Millard: What's fair? Mrs. Martin: No use going into the conditions if no ones gOlng to pick it up. Mr. Millard: Cause that could take a whole half hour to write it ln there. Cause they've brought up some good points. Mrs. Martin: Right. r , ,20.. o o Mr. Garthwaite: Depends on what kind of a vote the Board glves, if they vote yes or if they vote no. Mr. Millard: With the understanding that these would be the tightest conditions we could write and really make them live up to it. Mr. Newell: Right, if it goes through. Mr. Millard: Okay. This is the vote. To see if there's any feeling for approving it with the tightest and toughest and most accurate, you know, really best conditions we could come up to answer the objections. If you feelthat way vote yes. If you feel that there's no way to write the con- ditions in that would answer this problem, then you vote no; Call the roll. Mrs. Taylor: Mr. Millard: Yes Mrs. Martin: No Mr. Butt: No Mr. Newell: No Mr. Wetzel: No Mr. Roush: No Mr. Garthwaite: No Mr. Millard: Mr. Wallace, the application has been denied by the Board. You will be advised. Mr. Wallace: Thank you for your time. (Other comments could not be heard.) The members returned the preliminary site plans to the secretary. The meeting continued on with other matters. Minutes submitted by Joan Taylor