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07-12-1983 Addendum ~ u CITY OF EDGEWATER PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING JULY 12, 1983 Addendum to Minutes At the regular meeting of the Planning Commission on July 20, 1983, a motion was made and carried that the minutes of the July 12, 1983, meeting regarding SP-82l9 (Rev.) Luis C. Geil be typed, verbatim. Said verbatim minutes are as follows: MR. BENNINGTON: Next we have, looks like Reverend Luis Geil. I guess that's revised. Is there a revised plan or something? SUSAN MISTA: Yeah, he's corne in before with a plan, he's revised them. MR. BENNINGTON: Oh, OK, alright, it's the same plan we have. SUSAN MISTA: Yes. MR. BENNINGTON: I thought that meant it was a revised one that we didn't have. MR. GEIL: It is a sketch plan. What we submitted before was a sketch plan for townhouses. Now this is changed to apartment buildings. MR. BENNINGTON: OK, I'm sure you know this but, what we're doing here basically is to tell Mr. Geil that this complies, if he's granted a Special Exception. These long buildings here, the 14 apartments, do you know how long they are? MR. GEIL: MR. OPAL: MR. BENNINGTON: MR. GEIL: MR. OPAL: MR. GEIL: MR. OPAL: MR. GEIL: MR. BENNINGTON: Uh - hundred and fifty eight feet or fifty six feet. Is it that piece back here? They look like 210 to me. Yeah, you're right, 208. That's the only thing that's ln R4, isn't it? Yeah. Not only those, there are more buildings ln R4. Very small section. The rest is B3. I believe B3 along there is one. This is a good time to read this letter. I just got it so I'll read it to you, too. This is from the Zoning Commission to the Board of Adjustments with a copy to the Planning Commission, dated July 12th, subject - Luis C. Geil, request for Special Exception to permit R4 in a B3 zone. This really doesn't concern us so far as whether you get your special exception or not. I'm just reading it for information. In regards to the request for Special Exception to permit R4 in a B3 zone on-March 28, 1983, the Zoning Commission sent a letter to Council, recommending that a moratorium be placed on future requests for the Special Exception rule during the process of changing these portions of the 880 Ordinance. Enclosed is a copy of said letter for your review. This recommendation has been referred to the City Attorney for action. Therefore, it is the Board's understanding that there is presently a moratorium I fJ MR. GEIL: MR. BENNINGTON: MR. OPAL: MR. BENNINGTON: MR. OPAL: MR. BENNINGTON: MR. OPAL: MR. BENNINGTON: MR. OPAL: MR. BENNINGTON: MR. CHENOWETH: MR. GEIL: MR. OPAL: MR. BENNINGTON: MR. GEIL: o o on requests concerning B3 zoning,which would reflect upon Mr. Geil's request for Special Exception. I don't know what it means. Except it says that it is the Board's opinion, meaning Zoning Board. It is my understanding that this B3 consideration was along U.S. 1 but not necessarily the side street. That's the one I wanted to discuss with you. In reference to their letter to Council - R4 would apply also. They're saying all - in their letter to Council. Well as far as I can see, this sketch is inconsistenti.with the zoning of the property. That's not our concern, Mr. Opal. Well I'm just saying it's inconsistent. Our concern is whether it will comply if he 1S granted a Special Exception. So any approval by us with the sketch plan is premature. Negative. The Board of Adjustments will not hear it unti we hear it. You already own this property (inaudible) it's gonna be something, either B3, probably B3 and R4. B3 along U.S. 1 stays B3 and we keep it B3. What you want changed this B3 is along Marion. A sketch plan we don't get into very often, let me explain. Sketch plan is nothing more than a basic drawing, showing the location of the building, wanting to know whether this will comply with R4 zoning provided he is given the Special Exception. That's what we're to do. These department head comments are basically for a preliminary, but we can go through them. Uh, size of lots - building official - see the plan. Conformity of zoning - question mark. Topo will be required, plans by architect will be required, driveway permits are required by State or other sources, if needed. Fire Department says emergency access is OK, would like to have at least 3 fire hydrants in the apartment area and 2 in the future commercial area. Police Department says street lights will come when completed, wants him to submit it in compliance with the 911 plan. Public Works wants a deailed lay-out, show drainage and adequate retention areas which I'm sure he's not gonna go to the expense of getting that until he gets to preliminary, if and when he gets his Special Exception. So basically what we have to do is to determine whether its in compliance with the R4 zoning and the Comp Plan, if he is granted his Special Exception. The reason I asked the question of the length of the buildings, to be honest, I do not know the answer to this, someone told me in the Southern Building Code, which the City abides by, there is a length requirement maximum. It's in RS, there's a maximum length of under 200', but not in R4 and then the Southern Building Code has a requirement so many thousand square feet you have a four hour (inaudible). That's the only requirement on the length of the building. You could have a big townhouse here, 300' long, as long as you have the fire wall sufficient. 2 Planning Commission Meeting Addendum to Minutes T111v 17 1qR7i o o MR. BENNINGTON: Yeah, I know the building inspector explained to us as the building increases in size, the fire wall rating goes up. At a certain point it goes to something ridiculous - three days or something. MR. OPAL: MR. GEIL: What's this gonna be, just an emergency entrance up here? It's an entrance for emergency vehicles, for ambulance and fire. MR. BENNINGTON: Now do you plan - you show this as future. Do you plan on - MR. GEIL: This will be paved also. MR. BENNINGTON: I mean now, or future? MR. GEIL: Right, no, now. MR. BENNINGTON: You're gonna go ahead and put the - in other words, this emergency access will be available now? MR. GEIL: Will be available now, that's right. It will be paved (inaudible) . MR. OPAL: About entrances, up here, off Marion, will you have one up here, two of them? MR. GEIL: There are three. MR. OPAL: Three of them? MR. GEIL: Yes. MR. BENNINGTON: All 24'. MR. GEIL: All back to back parking has a 24' spacing. All stalls are 10 by 20. All separations from building and parking is 10'. Front setback is 40', rear setback is 20, side yards are 45', (inaudible). MR. BENNINGTON: I asked you this question once before, you have a pretty stamp, does that indicate you're gonna put a tree in each of those locations? MR. GEIL: Uh, I think we will have more trees than that because your new requirement will ask for more trees than that. MR. BENNINGTON: To be perfectly honest, I did not count the parking. MR. GEIL: Parking, we provided two for each. With 2 or 3 more than required. Most cities require, I would like to point out, in the Code it requires in R4 2 parking stalls per unit, but if you look in the parking require- ments for multi-family requires 1.5. We went by 2 even though all the cities require only 1.5. MR. BENNINGTON: Well if it specifically, most of them say refer to section 700.01. MR. GEIL: R4 is specific on 2 stalls. MR. BENNINGTON: Are these 2 story or single story? MR. GEIL: 2 story, we're making the second story (inaudible). MR. BENNINGTON: It's specifically asking for 2 in R4. MR. CHENOWETH: What's this statement mean in this letter, I know we're not to decide this but the Commission unanimously concluded that the rate of multi-family and duplex units presently located and planned for these districts will, in the future, exceed the expected ratio of commercial 3 Planning Commission Meeting Addendum to Minutes o o to residential development. Are they saying in the future that an imbalance will occur between the ratio, that is increase the ratio of family units to the point where it is undesirable as against expected or anticip- ated commercial development? MR. BENNINGTON: That's what I understand them to be saYlng. MR. CHENOWETH: I know it's not our problem, but if we approve some kind of preliminary sketch here, we're just passing the buck to them to knock it down if they don't feel that this should be done. This much building, the Shangri-La development is slow and I've been in there a few times, it's next door to it. It's not developing very rapidly. The streets ar.e laid out all right. This will be even bigger than that. MR. GEIL: Excuse me, these are rentals, these are not for sale. MR. CHENOWETH: Yeah, that's right, those are for sale and these are rentals. MR. GEIL: There's no rentals around here. MR. CHENOWETH: No, yeah, I know of a couple places but not right there, no. LADY IN AUDIENCE:Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question? MR. BENNINGTON: Yes. LADY IN AUDIENCE: I live in the neighborhood so I am concerned and I was wondering how large the apartments will be. MR. GEIL: 1200 square feet, 2 bedroom and 1 bath, uh, 2 bedroom 2 bath. LADY IN AUDIENCE:1200 square feet? MR. GEIL: Righ t. LADY IN AUDIENCE: In each apartment. MR. BENNINGTON: MR. GARTHWAITE: MR. GEIL: MR. GARTHWAITE: MR. GEIL: MR. GARTHWAITE: MR. GEIL: MR. BENNINGTON: MR. OPAL: MR. BENNINGTON: MR. GEIL: MR. OPAL: MR. GEIL: I'm lookingi.in their Zoning Board minutes to see specif- ically what they said. Let me verify that size again, you said 1200 square feet for each apartment? Yes, sir. That will be awful large. Well, how about 1100? Well, that seems awfully large for an apartment. Yeah, thats 2 bedroom, 2 bath. Can't call it Chevy. How about the drainage there? That all comes - You mean stormwater? Stormwater drainage. That will be considered once we have the go ahead, then we will consult engineering. 3 Planning Commission Meeting Addendum to Minutes July 12, 1983 '-J o MR. BENNINGTON: See he could theoretically get sketch plan approval so he could go to the Board of Adjustments. He could then theoretically get his Special Exception. Now he has to corne back to us and we then consider the land has basically been rezoned R4, it hasn't, he just has Special Exception to do an R4 project. Then we get 1n to water retention and all that stuff. MR. GEIL: Those are the preliminary plans. MR. BENNINGTON: What this is, basically this is (end of tape lB). I don't see anything in their minutes. MR. OPAL: Are they gonna close up the theatre? MR. CHENOWETH: Well, that's rumored. He owns the property, I suppose they're gonna close it. LADY IN AUDIENCE:You say the apartments are to go in the back. The business part is still vacant. MR. GEIL: The business will be the part that 1S shown on the plan, at a later date (inaudible). MR. BENNINGTON: This little piece here is zoned R4. LADY IN AUDIENCE:And he wants all this to be zoned R4? MR. BENNINGTON: Well, basically, yes, but no. you are allowed to build R4 if grants you a Special Exception hearing. In B3, which is business, the Board of Adjustments to do so after a public LADY IN AUDIENCE:Doesn't he mean RS for multi-family dwelling? MR. OPAL: Right now there's a moratorium as far as I know. MR. BENNINGTON: There's none? MRS. BENNINGTON: We wouldn't put a moratorium on an industrial land, and we would not put a moratorium on (interrupted by Mr. Opal). MR. OPAL: Is that pending? MRS. BENNINGTON: It's pending and there 1S no moratorium. MR. OPAL: It's pending. MRS. BENNINGTON: It's pending based, waiting for a legal oprnnion, whether we can legally put a moratorium on it or not. MR. BENNINGTON: OK, here's what they said from the minutes of the Zoning Board, Mr. Chenoweth brought it up. Mr. Siciliano brought up the subject of multi-family housing as a Special Exception in the B zone. He does not feel that these should be allowed in a commercial zone. Commercial land is being used up by multi-family housing. He asked Mrs. Winks to let the Commission know at the next meeting how many multi-family units we now have and how many are on the books. There was a discussion on how the existing multi-family units in the B zones could be handled and the idea of grandfathering them in was suggested. Single family home in conjunction with a business was discussed and the opinion of the Commission was that this could be allowed if they were under single ownership. This was back in March. I really don't believe at this point that's really any of our concern. That's all we're here to do is tell him whether he complies if he's granted his Special Exception. MR. OPAL: If. 4 Planning Commission Minutes Addendum to Minutes T..1,. 1..., 1001: o o MR. BENNINGTON: Which we have no control over. MRS. BENNINGTON: Don, don't you have to assume that he 1S gOlling to be granted - MR. BENNINGTON: Well, yes. MRS. BENNINGTON: You have to assume that hes been granted, assume that hes got it. MR. OPAL: No, no. You don't assume that you got it. MRS. BENNINGTON: You have to assume that he's got it to see whether it complies or not. MR. BENNINGTON: No, it doesn't really matter whether he gets it or not. MRS. BENNINGTON: Right, that's what I'm saying. MR. BENNINGTON: All he wants to know is if he gets it, does he comply. MRS. BENNINGTON: That's right. So go under the assumption that he has to see if it complies. MR. BENNINGTON: Then when he comes back to us he'll have it or it won't come back to us.\ MR. CHENOWETH: What does he want, preliminary sketch approval, is that all he wants? MR. BENNINGTON: No, this was a sketch plan, no, site plan. He doesn't want preliminary, he doesn't want final. MR. CHENOWETH: I know that. MR. BENNINGTON: He just wants to know, does he comply with the setbacks, does he comply with the uh percentage of land use, now even though this land is zoned B3, we're looking at R4 to answer these questions. Uh, for example, open space, 60% of the project shall be retained as open space. Open space does not inttlude any area devoted to building, streets, or access drives. It may include property, properly landscaped parking lots when the same are recommended by the Planning Board and approved by the City Council. Open space must be suitably approved for aesthetic or recreational purposes. Off street parking, does he meet his offstreet parking, yes, we determined that he did. Minimum floor area, 750 square feet per dwelling unit, he says he's 1200. Maximum building height shall not exceed two stories, 26', that's 2 stories, you're probably talking what, 24'? MR. GEIL: About that. MR. BENNINGTON: Minimum lot depth, none. Minimum lot width, 15', that's townhouses only, forget it. OK. Setback requirements - multi-family will be Located no closer than 40' to any front project boundary line the first 5' adjacent to the boundary line shall be for landscaping or ingress and egress and shall not be used for offstreet parking, shall have 25' rear yard, multi-family dwellings shall be located from project boundaries as follows for side yards: interior side yards, 10' minimum or 10% of the lot frontage, whichever is greater and in no event shall side yard exceed 45'. Then they get into side lots on the corner. LADY IN AUDIENCE:Mr. Chairman. MR. BENNINGTON: Yes. 5 Planning Commission Meeting Addendum to Minutes July 12, 1983 o o LADY IN AUDIENCE:When I was on the Zoning Board some time ago, they used to hav.e a requirement that if it was a subdivision, they had to furnish sidewalks. MR. BENNINGTON: This is not a subdivision. LADY IN AUDIENCE:Well, what is it? MR. GEIL: Apartments. MR. BENNINGTON: Just an apartment complex. LADY IN AUDIENCE:Well, what 1S Shangri-La, is that a subdivision? MR, BENNINGTON: Shangri-La is a duplex subdivision. LADY IN AUDIENCE:They're not putting 1n sidewalkk~ MR. BENNINGTON: Yes, they are. LADY IN AUDIENCE: I haven't seen any. MR. BENNINGTON: Every house I saw built in there has sidewalks 1n front of it. LADY IN AUDIENCE:Not along the road. All I saw was curbs. MR. BENNINGTON: Well no, they're not next to, theyre about what, four feet off the road. MR. CHENOWETH: They don't have any sidewalks in there, I've been in there two or three times. Theres just nice roads. MR. BENNINGTON: There's sidewalks 1n there. LADY IN AUDIENCE:Lovely curbs, but no sidewalks. MR. BENNINGTON: No, there's sidewalks, as they build each house they put the sidewalks in. MR. CHENOWETH: Out to the curbs, you mean? MR. BENNINGTON: No, the sidewalks are usaully four to six feet off the curb. MR. CHENOWETH: I haven't seen any. LADY IN AUDIENCE: I haven't either. I'll go back and look again. MR. BENNINGTON: I saw them, they're there, I went and looked for them. I didn't have anything to do with appr6~ingyit, but they're there. MR. CHENOWETH: Therels only about four houses 1n there now isn't there? MR. BENNINGTON: There's more than that. MR. OPAL: I didn't see any when I was in there. MR. CHENOWETH: They're double units there. This looks like pretty good use of what is now pretty much misuse of the property. I mean not that I'm against movies, don't misunderstand me. It looks like it would be quite an addition to the community. MR. BENNINGTON: OK, now, granted this Comp Plan is a couple years old. When it was written, we had in the City 649 acres of residential property, single family - 594, multi-family - 12, mobile homes - 43, commercial, we had 119. We've since taken in probably another, off the top of my head, at least 150 acres of multi-family. So that would put multi-family up to about 160. 6 Planning Commission Meeting Addendum to Minutes July 12, 1983 o o LADY IN AUDIENCE:Have you thought about what this will do to the schools? MR. OPAL: They don't think of those things. LADY IN AUDIENCE:You don't? MR. OPAL: They don't. LADY IN AUDIENCE:The taxpayers do. MR. OPAL: I know that. Well, I'm not gonna vote on the sketch plan and uh its going to the Board of Adjustments and find out what they're gonna do, as far as I'm concerned this is premature. MR. BENNINGTON: Well, Frank, it's not premature, this is what our job is to tell him whether it complies or not so it can go to the Board of Adjustments. MR. OPAL: You mean we should tell the Board of Adjustments its OK, I'm not doing that. MR. BENNINGTON: No we should not tell the Board of Adjustments nothing. MR. OPAL: This is rezoning. MR. BENNINGTON: It's not rezoning. The Board of Adjustments still have the policy of they will not hear it until it passes us. I'm asking the chairman sitting over there. Is that t Ilue? MR. WETZEL: Right. MR. BENNINGTON: The Comp Plan talks about something that should be done that's not being done. It says existing land use map reveals scattered strip commercial development along u.s. Highway 1 with residential development behind the commercial strip. Interspaced among the commercial uses are some medium density single family residential and high density single family residential and high density mobile home parks. And it talks about what your basic lay-out of the city is in each area. There's a place in here that says that we should discourage strip development along U.S. 1 of commercialized zones, but that is still a zoning matter. It says it is wasteful, doesn't make for an attractive city. MR. CHENOWETH: Most of the building that's done along there, Shangri-La being an example, is -- MR. BENNINGTON: Here's the statement here. Common to the land use patterns of coastal Volusia County, this commercial development in a strip along U.S. Highway I with residen- tial development behind the commercial strip, this pattern is maintained in Edgewater. Strip commercial development pattern is wasteful of energy and time as it requires extensive travel for shopping, significant multi-store parking is precluded. In addition, this pattern promotes a general unsightly hodge-podge of commercial activity and will detract from the appearance of the city to visitors and potential investors. Basic- ally, the way I read that what that tells us to do is to discourage strip commercial development along U.S. 1- but we are still maintaining this pattern and that's done by the Zoning Board. MR. OPAL: In that Land Use, what page are you on, Don? MR. BENNINGTON: Uh, 4-2, paragraph 4. LADY IN AUDIENCE: In your Comprehensive Plan for the City, don't they allow for business property on highway 1? 7 Planning Commission Meeting Addendum to Minutes T..1" 1') 10Q<i; o o MR. BENNINGTON: Oh, yeah, well, the Zoning Ordinance allows for it. LADY IN AUDIENCE: It seems strange, you know, if it's laid out that way and all of a sudden you can corne along and change it. MR. BENNINGTON: No, he still maintaining commercial development along U.S. 1, I was just reading something in the Comp Rian - the state law says that you shall update your zoning to conform to your Comp Plan. I was just making the statement it's not being done. LADY IN AUDIENCE:Conform to your Comprehensive Plan? MR. BENNINGTON: It says you're not supposed to route commercial traffic through residential areas. MR. GARTHWAITE: (inaudible) MR. BENNINGTON: No, it's authorized Special Exception. LADY IN AUDIENCE:Who authorized it? MR. BENNINGTON: Whoever wrote this book. LADY IN AUDIENCE:Well it's funny, on Thomas Street, just a block away when we wanted a Special Exception to build a church there rather than rezone the land, they turned us down and it was attorney Judson Woods that told us at that time that if they made a Special Exception on every case that carne along, they might as well not have any zoning. MR. BENNINGTON: That's up to the, that has nothing to do with us. That's up to the Board of Adjustments whether they grant the Special Exception or not. MR. OPAL: See, we talk about rezoning, Special Exception is just another way 0f getting around and have it rezoned. LADY IN AUDIENCE:But it depends on who's requesting a Special Exception, and that's not right. If it's right for one it should be right for the next. MR. BENNINGTON: You take that up w~th the Boa~d of Adjustments. LADY IN AUDIENCE: It was the attorney that made the decision. It was his opinion. That they shouldn't grant Special Exceptions. MR. BENNINGTON: The term Special Exception, you know, I don1t know what case you're talking about, it could be however the property was zoned, that was not an authorized Special Exception. Maybe he meant by making a';Special Exception for you in this case, we would have to do it (inaudible), I can't speak for what he was saying, I don't know, but it will tell you what is permitted as a Special Exception. If churches weren't listed, then they couldn't grant it. LADY IN AUDIENCE:The only way they can build a church is with a Special Exception in New Smyrna Beach. Nothing is zoned for churches. But they wanted to change R2 properties to RS in order to build a church and then they could put in anything else they wanted to. MR. BENNINGTON: Where was that? LADY IN AUDIENCE:Across from my house on Thomas Street. MR. OPAL: Right across from this property. LADY IN AUDIENCE:Right across the highway, toward the river. MR. BENNINGTON: OK, under Special Exceptions under B3, item 2, the construction of duplexes and multi-family dwellings, including townhouses and cluster housing is included as a Special Exception in the B3 district. Any person 8 Planning Commission Meeting Addendum to Minutes July 12. 1983 o o requesting a Special Exception to construct duplexes or other multi-family dwellings, shall be required to comply with the dimensional requirements as set forth in Section 603.01 - R4 Multi-Family District. And said dimensional requirements;shall pertain to duplexes or other mul t i- family dwellings except the height limitations for any duplex or multi-family dwelling shall not exceed two stories to the maximum height of 26'. That says it's authorized Special Exception. We don't grant Special Exceptions, the Board of Adjustments grants or denies Special Exceptions. MR. OPAL: What you are reading, 1S that on page 1603? MR. BENNINGTON: 06. MR. CHENOWETH: Do you have a calendar of how fast you will move if you get the Zoning Board's approval, I mean targeted in days. I guess the theatre closes anyway this fall, doesn't it sometime? MR. GEIL: No, it depends on this. The theatre won't close if we don't get this. MR. CHENOWETH: You just lease it out to them. MR. GEIL: Righ t. MR. CHENOWETH: I guess they're reliable. What do they call it, Floyd - Floyd's Theatres? MR. GEIL: Floyd Theatres. MR. OPAL: I thought they were supposed to have a flea market there. What happened to it? MR. GEIL: It's not very convenient to have a flea market there. I don't even know if the Code would allow it. If the project cannot be built (inaudible). MR. BENNINGTON: Mr. Garthwaite, do you have your book with you, I'm trying to find the item you mentioned and I can't find it. MR. GARTHWAITE: Page 1-9. Under policies, paragraph 6, it says, protect future commercial and industrial sites from residential encroachment. You know what we're discussing here is, as you said, zoning. It doesn't really have anything to do with what you're talking about right here. MR. BENNINGTON: OK, well what we have to do is determine compliance to the Comp Plan, under policies it states quite a few things. MR. GARTHWAliTE: It's contradictory, Don, you and I both discussed that before. MR. BENNINGTON: Under policies it says, commercial, industrial and other traffic generating activities shall be located in areas with direct access to the arterial street system to minimize non-residential traffic to local residential streets. Well, Marion Avenue has a trailer park on this side which is residential. So looking at that -- MR. OPAL: Is Marion Avenue an industrial street? MR. BENNINGTON: No, it goes back in to industrial but you've got residen- tial here and you've got a split here of residential and business. I would say from paragraph 1 it says to minim- ize non-residential traffic through local residential streets. Uh, th~ could be determined a local residential street. Encourage commercial users to locate the centers of concentrated acitivity convenient to residential areas 9 Planning Commission Meeting Addendum to Minutes 1"1,, 17 1QA7; o o while not allowing unplanned commercial enroachment into residential areas. I- MR. OPAL: That's what you'll have right there. MR. BENNINGTON: Here's something you're not gonna like - encourage cluster and planned unit developments, that's PUD, to create a unified neighborhood and provide open space. Uh, this is a cluster type situation, it says encourage it and then it says protect future commercial and industrial sites from residential enroachment. Uh - review areas developed with nonconforming uses for rezoning whererJapppoIDldate. Looking at the map, I don't know why they ever laid it out like that anyway. This is all R4, all multi-family, this is all mobile homes and all they're wanting to do is extend this piece, multi-family, which would give you your business zoning, multi-family zoning and it would leave industrial here, and single family here. Basically looking at it, I would say the property should be rezoned. MRS. BENNINGTON: Don, how much land are we talking about that is B3 that they want a Special Exception on? MR. CI-iENOWETH Of the SlX, it's four. MR. GEIL: Of the SlX, four probably. MR. BENNINGTON: Yeah, its a good guess. MR. OPAL: About one third. MRS. BENNINGTON: Are you talking about four acres, is all? MR. OPAL: To rezone. MR. BENNINGTON: See, the way the property sets - the most logical thing is the Zoning Board should look at the Comp Plan and rezone this piece here industrial, and this piece multi-family R4. I would say it complies with the Comp Plan. MR. OPAL: But I wouldn't tell the Zoning ~~ard to go ahead and rezone it. MR. BENNINGTON: I'm not telling the Zoning Board to do anything, I'm jus t say in g - MR. OPAL: Rezone it for who? For whose benefit? MR. BENNINGTON: It says, now you can look at the zoning map and look at this and look at the way the property is split, who owns this and who owns this, it's not the same person. The logical, if I was laying out zoning, that's where I would put the line. We even have a situation on the street I live in where we have two -lots that are split diagonally and one half is single family and the other half is B3. I would definitely say;that it complies with the Comp Plan, it meets all the requirements. Anyone like to make a motion? MR. CHENOWETH: What kind of motion do you need, that the idea of his planning, which looks good - MR. BENNINGTON: No, well, it doesn't matter whether it looks good or whether we like it. MR. CHENOWETH: Well, you have to like it to vote for it. MR. BENNINGTON: You don't have to like it. MR. CHENOWETH: How can you vote for something you don't like, if it's not good for the City. 10 Planning Commission Meeting Addendum to Minutes Tll1v 17 1qR7; '-I o MR. BENNINGTON: Hey, let's say y~u don~t like cemetaries, but the property is zoned for it, or the Special Exception is authorized. All your job is to vote whether it conforms or not. MR. CHENOWETH: I'm not against cemetaries, Don. MR. BENNINGTON: I'm just giving an example. You're just voting whether it conforms or not. MR. OPAL: It conforms to other zonlng. MR. CHENOWETH: Well, it doesn't now, from what you explained. MR. BENNillNGTON: We're considering two things, basically, that's it. Does it conform to R4 zoning, which it is not. Does it conform to R4? And does it conform to the Comp Plan? Like I say, in my opinion you've got business zoning down there into what should be a residential area, it says discourage that. It does say, I will grant Mr. Garthwaite that it says to protect your, does it say industrial or commercial - both, from residential en- roachment, but also you don't want commercial property stuck down in the middle of your residential either. And that's what you've got. MR. OPAL: That's why I wouldn't vore for it. MR. BENNINGTON: Let me see if I can rephrase it, you may hate this whole idea. It's my opinion that if you hated it, that's your personal opinion, your place to speak out at that is at the public hearing at the Board of Adjustments. Your job here is to vote whether it conforms or not, if he's granted his Special Exception. MR. CHENOWETH: MR. OPAL: MR. BENNINGTON: MR. OPAL: MR. BENNINGTON: MR. OPAL: MR. BENNINGTON: I believe it does. You mean B3? R4. B3 doesn't concern us. Well, I don't care if it conforms to R4. Well if you don't care if it conforms to R4, that's what you're here for. That's up to them. No, that's up to you. That's your job, you're on the Planning Commission to' vote whether it conforms to R4 or not. MR. GEIL: I still have to come back to prove that it complies with R4. MR. OPAL: You go to the Board of Adjustments. MR. CHENOWETH: I make a motion that if, not if, make a motion that inas- much it appears this plan would conform to an R4 rezoning and be acceptable as a building plan in this particular location subject to of course preliminary and final approval. MR. BENNINGTON: Vh, how about this, if the plan, the sketch plan complies wi th R4. MRl, CHENOWETH: Yes, it does. MR. BENNINGTON: And the Comp Plan, provided he's given a Special Exception at the Board of Adjustments. MR. CHENOWETH: That's right. Did you get the rest of the motion, the Comp Plan, it meets the Comp Plan and R4. 11 Planning Commission Meeting Addendum to Minutes Till" 17 lQs:l<. SUSAN MISTA: MR. OPAL: Q o Yes. OK. The Comp Plan has got to be studied a lot more. It's got to be gone through. MR. BENNINGTON: How long have you had your package? MR. CHENOWETH: I've read it four trumes, I still have to learn about it. MR. BENNINGTON: No, the package, this plan, how long have we had it? There's only so many pages in there. MR. CHENOWETH: I read it three times, I still don't understand it all. I learn something every time I come down here. I think his plan is good and it does conform with R4 zoning. MR. OPAL: With R4 only. MR. BENNINGTON: It also has to be - MR. CHENOWETH: I don't think he should be discouraged from gOlng ahead. MR. BENNINGTON: This motion has to include compliance with the Comp Plan, yes or no, before it goes to the Board of Adjustments. MR. CHENOWETH: OK, that's the motion. MR. BENNINGTON: The Ordinance that established this Board gives us the duty of determining compliance to the Comp Plan, you can't put that off on somebody else, you've got to do it. Do you have all the motion? SUSAN MISTA: Uh-huh. MR. BENNINGTON: Anyone want to second it? MR. CHENOWETH: Why don't you read it back so they can hear it. SUSAN MISTA: The motion states that the sketch plan complies with R4 and the Comprehensive Plan, provided it's given Special Exception at the Board of Adjustments hearing. MR. OPAL: It doesn't:aIJl.ply to Comprehensive Plan, that has to be studied some more. SUSAN MISTA: MR. OPAL: MR. BENNINGTON: MR. OPAL: MR. BENNINGTON: MR. OPAL: MR. CHENOWETH: That's what he said in his motion. It doesn't comply to the Comprehensive Plan. Do we have a second to the motion? Strike that out and We're wasting our time and his time if you strike that out, so if you don't like it, don't second it. The Comp Plan has to be studied some more. Remember, there's a lot of generalizations in the Comp Plan, the wording of each paragraph has many general- izations in it that can be interpretted one way or the other. MR. BENNINGTON: Uh, I don't know the - we don't have a vice-chairman at this time so I have nobody to pass the gavel to. Got a copy of our by-laws handy? MR. CHENOWETH: I do. MR. BENNINGTON: We have one on vacation and uh - it doesn't say. Motion dies for lack of second. Anybody have an alternate motion? 12 Planning Commission Meeting Addendum to Minutes July 12, 1983 u (.,) MR. OPAL: I'll make a motion that we just uh approve conformity to R4 as it is now with the precondition as far as the Comprehensive Plan, that should be studied. MR. BENNINGTON: By who? MR. OPAL: Well, let the Board of Adjustments do it. MR. BENNINGTON: It's not their job, it's your job. MR. OPAL: It needs a lot of study. MR. BENNINGTON: So whos gonna study it? MR. CHENOWETH: I don't think we should impede progress, Frank, by referring something to studies and if it were something other than a very logical nature, which this thing is, I mean, I can't see why this company or corporation or however they're labelled, should be delayed because of our unwillingness to give them approval. MR. OPAL: MR. CHENOWETH: MR. OPAL: MR. CHENOWETH: MR. OPAL: MR. BENNINGTON: Why should we glve them approval, you tell me that. Cause it's our job and they're in conformity. That's right to give them approval or disapproval. That's right. That's right. Also under policies it states, ensure that the amount available commercial land does not greatly exceed the amount needed to satisfy the neighborhood and community demands. There's all kinds of empty buildings setting up there that aren't rented. Review and revise the permitted commercial uses under existing zoning regulation: to relate community neighborhood highway uses to approp- riate district. And I still say that district sitting down inside that multi-family zoning should not be zoned R3 or B3. MR. OPAL: What's gonna happen to the property that's behind it on Marion gOlng towards Industrial Road, that's commercial. MR. BENNINGTON: That's uh, most of that's industrial. There's a small piece there zoned that will be left B3, that's what I'm saying, it should be rezoned. MRS. BENNINGTON: Frank, there's a lot of difference between illndustrial and commercial. MR. OPAL: Marion Avenue is an industrial street too. MRS. BENNINGTON: Then what better place to put an apartment complex than on an industrial street? That's where the people are gonna be working. MR. OPAL: MRS. BENNINGTON: They'd be working in an industry. That's where they'd be living. MR. OPAL: No industry if you got apartments in there. MR. BENNINGTON: So your motion is what? MR. OPAL: Just approve that it confmrms with R4, that's all, period. I'd leave out the Comprehensive Plan. MR. BENNINGTON: Well, we have to say yes or no whether it complies. MR. OPAL: That's questionable. 13 Planning Commission Meeting Addendum to Minutes .T111v 17. lQR'1i {.) () MR. BENNINGTON: So what are you suggesting, that we take it home and study it and then come back? MR. OPAL: Well, OK one and uh the other, that's, they're gonna have a public hearing so - MR. BENNINGTON: He cannot go to that Board to that public hearing until we say that it complies. MR. OPAL: It's OK, and I don't say it's OK. MR. BENNINGTON: Well, all I'm saying is that your motion is fine, if that's what you want to make but it's not gonna accomplish anything. You're not approving or denying in your motion. You're saying -- MR. OPAL: I said from the outset, it's premature so I'll stand on those grounds. MR. CHENOWETH: Well, he's as premature with his plans as he can get. He comes first to us with a sketch, he's not even into this yet. It's really a lightbulb idea right now at this point. He's got a sketch here and -- MR. BENNINGTON: Let me read you something from the Ordinance that established the Planning Commission. Powers and Duties: Item 1: The Commission shall have the primary respon- sibility for determination that land development orders and land development regulations are censistent with the Edgewater Comprehensive Plan. That means you, and nobody else determines whether this complies with the Comp Plan or not. Uh, if you've had it two weeks and you haven't determine whether it complies or not, then you would have to vote that it doesn't comply, one way or the other. MR. OPAL: Right now it doesn't comply. MR. BENNINGTON: OK, then your motion is that it does not comply to the Comp Plan. MR. OPAL: No, I didn't make that motion, I made one motion and that was enough, that'll take care of it. MR. BENNINGTON: Anyone care to second that motion? That it complies with R4 and the Comp Plan needs further study. That the Planning Commission has not done their job over the last two weeks in determining this issue. Anyone have an alternate motion? MR. CHENOWETH: Would you believe, the word "believe" in there. Believe it complies with the Comp Plan. MR. BENNINGTON: Believe 1S not good enough. MR. CHENOWETH: Isn't good enough? MR. BENNINGTON: Shall have primary responsibility. MR. CHENOWETH: Well, that's the way the motion was worded, that it does comply. MR. BENNINGTON: It either does or it doesn't. It doesn't almost or maybe. MR. CHENOWETH: I believe it does, you believe it doesn't. Nobody else is here to second it. I believe it does comply, it doesn't interfere in any way witfu the master plan. MR. BENNINGTON: You read the book, what do you think? MR. QUAGGIN: Not that much. 14 Planning Commission Meeting Addendum to Minutes .T1l1v 17._ 1c)R~ (.) o MR. BENNINGTON: I guess we're stuck at an impasse Mr. Geil, until this Council decides to put somebody on this Commission that is willing to do the work to do the job. MR. GEIL: And I'm on the agenda for Thursday night's meeting before the Board of Adjustments. MR. BENNINGTON: I don't have an answer for that. MR. GEIL: And I'~ to tell that that this was submitted to this Board and they gave no response. MR. BENNINGTON: No action taken. MR. OPAL: No action. MR. GEIL: If that Board will accept that (inaudible) maybe they will take some action. MR. BENNINGTON: I don't know, I don't really see how they can. Mr. Wetzel, what do you think? MR. WETZEL: I won't say right now. MR. OPAL: He can't say. MR. BENNINGTON: I do know that the last Chairman would not even hear the cases until we determined compliance, uh, I'm sure the fact that whether it does or does not comply to the Comp Plan is gonna weigh heavy on their decision. MR. OPAL: I don't believe it does conform to the Comp Plan. MR. BENNINGTON: Well then your motion should be that it does not conform. MRS. BENNINGTON: Why, in your opinion, doesn't it conform to the Comp Plan? MR. OPAL: Why? MRS. BENNINGTON: Yes. Because I don't believe it does. MR. OPAL: MRS. BENNINGTON: Why? MR. OPAL: What do you mean why? Why should you question me why? I'm on the Board. MRS. BENNINGTON: I'm just asking why wouldn't it, in your opinion, comply? MR. OPAL: MR. BENNINGTON: MR. OPAL: MR. GEIL: MR. BENNINGTON: MR. OPAL: MR. GEIL: MR. OPAL: Just like I said at the outset, it's too premature for me to go ahead and vote on this project, period. Could uh, this is not a smart quest~on, this is not uh, what do you mean by too premature? It's too early. Five years too early, or what? What do you mean by too early? Go to the Board of Adjustments. They sent us to.the Planning Commission first. All I made a motion is that it complies in conformity with R4, that's all and as far as the Comp Plan is concerned, I put a question mark on that one. MR. BENNINGTON: Mr. Chenoweth, would you care to restate your motion and then I'll uh make a second, pending a legal ruling that 15 Planning Commission Meeting Addendum to Minutes July 12. 1983 '-> o it's a legal second, see1ng as how I don't have a V1ce- chairman to pass the gavel to, and then we'll see how the vote goes. MR. CHENOWETH: I move that the plan, sketch plan be that it conforms to R4 zoning and that it is in conformity with the Master Plan, that it be approved. I'm talking about the sketch plan now, that's why I labelled it that to start with. MR. BENNINGTON: Yeah, that's all they want at this point. MR. CHENOWETH: That's all they want, yes. MR. BENNINGTON: Uh, this whole thing could be taken out of our hands just like that. I'ilil make the second, subject to legal -- MR. OPAL: You're gonna make the second on that? MR. BENNINGTON: Subject to legal ruling that it's a legal second. The by-laws doesn't state, one way or the other. Call for role call and see what the outcome of that is. SUSAN MISTA: Mr. Opal. No. Mr. Quaggin. No. Mr. Chenoweth. MR. OPAL: SUSAN MISTA: MR. QUAGGIN: SUSAN MISTA: MR. CHENOWETH: Yes. SUSAN MISTA: Mr. Bennington. MR. BENNINGTON: Yes. I don't believe the ruling 1S necessary. I don't know what to tell you Mr. Geil. MR. GEIL: MR. CHENOWETH: Whose gonna tell me? What is my next step? Keep those movies com~ng. I shouldn't be voting it in cause my son manages that theatre, but I wouldn't do it. MR. BENNINGTON: I don't know what to tell you. Uh- MR. GEIL: I know that everybody agrees that it's OK, but the R4 zoning, if R4 is approved, fine, but it don't matter, it's out of our hands anyway. MR. OPAL: That's right, just like that. MR. GEIL: But if the next Board at least knows that this conforms to what I applied for or request for R4, that will be enough to start. Well, that's the whole problem. You go to that Board, well we got an OK, complete OK and we went through that before and uh, I saw how we went through and how things were forgotten. MR. OPAL: MR. GEIL: Well, if every Board is as careful as this Board then we don't, we probably don't go anywhere. MR. OPAL: That's right. I'm careful too. MR. GEIL: You deny this one, the next Board denies it, so there's no -- LADY IN AUDIENCE:What do you thinks gonna happen in the summertime when all these rental people move out and go back up north. MR. GEIL: These are rental, these are for local people. 16 Planning Commission Meeting Addendum to Minutes .!J'u 1 v 1 2. 1 9 8 ~ o o LADY IN AUDIENCE:How can you limit it to local people? MR~ GEIL: We control it. MR. OPAL: They just rent it to anybody. Same thing with Village Green. Lease them by the month and rent them out. Rent them to anybody. LADY IN AUDIENCE:Can you restrict it to adults? MR. GEIL: Well, that's the idea. LADY IN AUDIENCE:Under the Constitution, you have to rent to anybody. MR. GEIL: Right, but (inaudible). MR. OPAL: Is there any other business on the agenda or are we going to vote for a vice-chairman? MR. BENNINGTON: Yes. Yes, there's other, just a minute uh - under the Board of Adjustments Ordinances here, an application for Special Exception is they file, you file for Special Exception, they schedule it for public hearmng, they post the property, they notify the property owners and it says the next paragraph is Zoning and Planning Board, which is now Planning Commission, reviews and recommen- dations, the Planning Commission shall review the application prior to the public hearing and shall present it's recommendations to the Board of Adjustments at the public hearing. The Planning Commission may revise it's recommendations following the public hearing and present such recommendations to the Board of Adjustments before action is taken by the Board of Adjustments. The Board of Adjustments shall approve, modify, or deny the application for Special Exception following the public hearing. At this point I don't know what our recommendations to the Board of Adjustments is. I don't see how they can have a public hearing. MR. OPAL: Why not? They're gonna have the public hearing, not us. MR. BENNINGTON: Frank, either you can't hear or when you read, you don't understand what you read. It says that we will review the plans and present a recommendation to the Board of Adjustments before they have their hearing. We are presenting no recommendation. MR. OPAL: I made a recommendation, conforms to R4, that's all, period. The Comprehensive Plan, question mark. MR. CHENOWETH: It's part of our job to see that it does conform to the Comprehensive Plan and that's why I worded my motion that it does, cause that's part of -- MR. OPAL: MR. CHENOWETH: MR. OPAL: MR. CHENOWETH: MR. OPAL: MR. BENNINGTON: But you can't prove to me that it does conform. You can't prove that it doesn't either. And that's why there's a question mark. It's unreasonable, I don't understand it. It's not unreasonable. Mr. Geil, the only thing I can tell you is to take it up with the attorney tomorrow. MR. GEIL: Well, I have one question. Does the Comprehensive Plan have to be mentioned at all in the motion. MR. BENNINGTON: It's, I believe it's pretty sure that it's under the uh - MR. GEIL: On this preliminary sketch, this isn't the mylar, it's just a sketch. 17 Planning Commission Minutes Addendum to Minutes July 12, 1983 o o MR. BENNINGTON: If I can find it, there's a list of things that the Board of Adjustment has to consider and one of those things they have to consider is compliance to the Comp Plan, correct? There's a list of I think five items, if I can find the list. Ordinance #82-0-3, the powers and duties of the Edgewater Planning Commission, the Commission shall have the primary responsibility for determining that land development orders and land develop- ment regulations a~e consistent with the Edgewater Comprehensive Plan. MR. CHENOWETH: You said another time you came here that it does, all of a sudden we're just passing the buck this time. MR. BENNINGTON: I'm pretty sure you'll find that state law says no zoning can be changed, no permits can be issue, no can be done until the Planning agency says that it complies with the Comp Plan. LADY IN AUDIENCE:Well, if the Comp Plan is controversial, one minute it says one thing and the next minute it says something else, how could anybody comply with it? MR. BENNINGTON: Then either it does or it doesn't comply and you state your reasons why. MR. OPAL: That's why it's questionable. LADY IN AUDIENCE:Who wrote the Comp Plan? You? MR. BENNINGTON: No, I didn't write it. Got Briley, Wild's name on it. MR. OPAL: Briley, Wild wrote it up for all the citys. MR. BENNINGTON: But I could give you, there's a list of about 8 people that were involved in it. MR. OPAL: The City passed the Ordinance, 83-0-3, last year. MR. GARTHWAITE: We have to make sure it complies with the Comp Plan. MR. BENNINGTON: Yeah, where's that at, Mr. Garthwaite? MRS. BENNINGTON: It's on page 1643. MR. CHENOWETH: I realize it has a lot of (inaudible) and the wording is beautiful, some English teacher wrote it, I think. I don't think a lawyer wrote it. MR. BENNINGTON: I see, the Board of Adjustment has to determine that the land use is a Special Exception, that the request will not impair the character of the surrounding and adjoining districts, nor be deterimental to the public health, morals, or welfare. The requested use will be in conform- ity with the land use plan, adequate utilities, access roads, draining, sanitation and other necessary facilities have or are being provided and the proposed use will not increase traffic congestion. Now, to the best of my recollection at one time Mr. Mallard, that he sent a letter to Mitchell or vice-versa, but there was some comment as to about removing that Comp Plan and the last one and another one and I was trying, I know they never took any action on it because it doesn't, it says that the requested use will be in conformity with the land use plan, plus you're supposed to have our recommendations which tells you whether it conforms or not. MR. GARTHWAITE: In the way you read it, that may be the way we (inaudible) would be our own interpretation. It depends on how you look at it. 18 Planning Commission Meeting Addendum to Minutes July 12, 1983 o o MR. GARTHWAITE: If you can't come up with a decision tonight, I would suggest that someone get with the City Attorney tomorrow, Mr. Wetzel or someone at City Hall. MR. BENNINGTON: That's all I can tellyou tonight. MR. GEIL: I understand that the City Attorney may make the recommen- dation to the Board? MR. BENNINGTON: I honestly don't believe that he can make that recommen- dation whether it complies with the Comp Plan. He can tell them whether they can proceed or not, or where we lie here. MR. OPAL: I believe you can proceed. I don't know why you can't proceed at the Board of Adjustments. MR. GEIL: Well this is why, I'm puzzled here, why couldn't you left it the way you proposed it at the beginning that it complies with R4, that's all, period. And nothing else mentioned because we still come back and then you can double check on the Comp Plans compliance on it. MR. OPAL: I made a motion that it conforms only with R4. MR. BENNINGTON: We never got a second to that motion. MR. GEIL: You didn't have a second? MR. BENNINGTON: No. Uh - I don't know what else to tell you. We'll take it up with the attorney tomorrow and get you an answer. 19 Planning Commission Maeting Addendum to Minutes July 12. 1983