Loading...
10-25-1999 - Special ~ ~ CITY COUNCIL OF EDGEWATER SPECIAL MEETING OCTOBER 25, 1999 6:00 P.M. COMMUNITY CENTER MINUTES CALL TO ORDER Mayor Randy Allman called the special Meeting to order at 6:00 p.m. in the Community Center. ROLL CALL Mayor Randy Allman Councilman James Gornto Councilman Myron Hammond Councilman Gary Roberts Councilwoman Judith Lichter City Attorney Nikki Clayton City Manager Kenneth Hooper City Clerk Susan Wadsworth Police Chief Lawrence Schumaker Present Present Present Present Present Present Present Present Present INVOCATION, PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE There was a silent invocation and pledge of allegiance to the Flag. MEETING PURPOSE The purpose of the meeting is to discuss an Edgewater Landing lawsuit and the potential impact to the City's tax base and revenue. City Attorney Clayton explained what the lawsuit entails and what the possible ramifications are to the City's tax base and revenue. Dominic Capria stated they would like to have the chance to make a statement before they go on with the meeting. Dick Martinez stated this is a departure from the agenda that is established with a City Council. You have an agenda that you normally follow which allows for citizen comments first. Mayor Allman stated this is a special meeting sir. This is the agenda. Mr. Martinez stated you only have two types of meetings, a Regular/Special Meeting which are the same and workshops. Workshops are different but not this meeting sir. Councilwoman Lichter asked if the speaker should identify himself. Dick Martinez, 317 Schooner Avenue, stated his name and address. city Manager Hooper stated there really is no agenda except what had been advertised. The speakers are probably correct that the format could be, if Mayor Allman chooses, to go ahead and let the citizens speak first if they wish to make a point. Dominic capria, 606 Topside Circle, stated he lives in Edgewater Landing and he is not a spokesperson for the residents of Edgewater Landing. His remarks will be as a resident of the city of Edgewater. If the derogatory remarks made about Malor Allman that were published in the News Journal on October 23r , 1999 were made, then he as a resident of Edgewater Landing apologize to him and all the residents of the City of Edgewater. 'w' ....., Gene Empter, 513 Ports ide Lane, stated he is associated with the Edgewater Landing Homeowners Association. He doesn't represent that organization and he speaks for himself. He is here because of the ridiculously inaccurate article in the News Journal last Friday and because of an equally ludicrous political statement by Mayor Allman condemning one neighborhood in Edgewater for trying to correct a legislatively imposed wrongdoing through a proper and legal method. He spoke about the inaccuracy of the article in Friday's News Journal. The case does not seek to remove any home from the tax roll. The case only seeks to provide an equal treatment with other homes taxed under state law, not local. The greatest inaccuracy deals with the inflated revenue supposedly lost by the City of Edgewater. Prior to 1992, Edgewater Landing homes were paying $150 to the state of Florida for manufactured home tags. Part of the $150 was returned to the city and the other part was returned as funding for the Volusia County schools. These homes also paid County taxes at the manufactured home rate. After 1992, the state legislature revised the law and opposed a tax increase only applicable to homes like those in Edgewater Landing. Other manufactured homes did not have their taxes increased. The following year as a result, the taxes on Edgewater Landing homes increased by about $200. The residents are only appealing to roll back the $200 increase. The County returns about 25% of all taxes collected to the City. There are 454 homes in Edgewater Landing. This times the $400 equals $181,600. Twenty five percent of $181,600 amounts to only $45,400. This loss to Edgewater in tax revenue would be reduced even further by the tag fees returned to Edgewater by Volusia County. This is a far cry from the $350,000 quoted in the News Journal article by Mr. Hill and even farther from the $500,000 loss claimed by Mayor Allman in his political statement. The bottom line is the homeowners in Edgewater Landing are merely attempting to get equal taxation with other manufactured housing. We will continue to pay our fair share of taxes to Edgewater. Mr. Empter commented briefly on the political document issued in Mayor Allman's name as it pertains to Edgewater Landing. There is no conspiracy by residents of Edgewater Landing to shift taxes. This was a public action filed in 1996 to correct a state wrongdoing that was dually reported in the media. If the issue was so wrong, why is it just now being raised when you should have known of its existence a long time ago. Mr. Empter stated to Mayor Allman one of his major supporters is Mr. Capria and he is also one of the directors of the group filing the action. Secondly, you said the residents of Edgewater Landing are trying to control the election. It seems strange that only one neighborhood in the City is being condemned for exercising their right to vote when all of you have stated publicly your position that residents should become aware of the issues and should vote. Or was it that Edgewater Landing is being condemned because someone doesn't like the way they vote. When this issue passes, what neighborhood is next. Your statement viciously condemned another Councilmember who has already been dually elected. This is the voters choice. Is this your idea of building trust and working together to build a better Edgewater? Obviously once again we are seeing the confrontational politics that has continually embarrassed Edgewater since the first year of this administration. You wonder? Has nothing changed? The financial loss to Edgewater has already been discussed. He finds it interesting that the newspaper quotes a $350,000 loss and the Mayor's political ad quotes a $500,000 loss. That is a pretty serious disparity there. It seems to him that the Council are pretty knowledgeable people and that they have a lot of resources at their disposal to be able to come up with the accurate information rather than the inflammatory figures that were quoted. Page -2- Council Special Meeting October 25, 1999 ~ ...., Dick Jones, 1530 Sabal Palm Drive, asked for a point of order. These people have been brought out as a result of a entry made into the newspaper. This gentleman is including a lot of innuendos. Before the people know what the legal status is, he would like to go back to when the Mayor asked the City Attorney to present the case to the public. After the case is presented, then the people can talk. Mr. Empter agrees that this meeting should be kept in order and responsibly run. He is done but he has some serious concerns about the situation here as it relates to Edgewater Landing and feels Council really needs to look at this. Councilwoman Lichter asked if they could have a time limit. Mayor Allman stated for time constraints he reduced the time limit to three minutes. Chuck McDonald, 608 Ports ide Lane, stated this case is being handled by the courts and is an issue of state law and County assessment. The Mayor and Council have no jurisdiction in this appeal. The city of Edgewater has been aware of this tax appeal for three years yet you declare an emergency special meeting one week before the election. This in his mind is a thinly vailed attempt to deceive the people and put neighbor against neighbor with bogus charges and false information. This is obviously a politically motivated act of desperation. Judy Jodwin, 812 Starboard Avenue, stated she is very concerned about the timing and the need to call an urgent special council meeting to discuss this issue. City Manager Hooper knew about this tax appeal case several months ago. Past City Managers were also appraised of it over the last three years. The News Journal covered the story over two years ago. Since the City has known about this or should have known about this for three years, she questioned the motive for calling this Special Meeting and summarize that this is simply the reaction of a desperate man to seek his political career that is threatened. Marilyn Conaghan, 528 Starboard Avenue, asked Mayor Allman if every homeowner is going to become a victim of a witch hunt every time they appeal the County tax assessment. That is an abusive power. Every homeowner has a right by law to question the method used in their tax assessment. Mayor Allman stated he has no qualms at all about her questioning her tax assessment. None. Dick Martinez, 317 Schooner Avenue, stated Mr. Mayor, you are asking the people of this City to believe that eleven people who appeal their County tax assessment three years ago created a conspiracy and that it now has some relevance to his campaign. He has heard of stretching but this takes the cake. It is widely known that your political operative and right arm, Ed Keenan, has known about this tax appeal for three years. He has discussed it with people in this City over two years ago. When discussing this case, Keenan told people that he believes everyone has a right to appeal their taxes. After all this is the same Ed Keenan, who sued the City over taxes, and the City spent $40,000 defending itself against Mr. Keenan. Unlike this appeal which is before the County. Mayor Allman banged the gavel. Mr. Martinez stated he is speaking. Mayor Allman stated he is speaking now. Mr. Keenan is not part of this meeting. Mr. Martinez you are out of order. Mr. Martinez continued to say that unlike this appeal which is before the County, you and Keenan are being hypocritical. Page -3- Council special Meeting October 25, 1999 .. ...., Mayor Allman stated he is going to listen to what everybody has to say. He will not stand for a personal attack on a citizen or a member of this Councilor anyone else in here. You can think what you want. I am telling you right now I will not hesitate to have you removed. Tony Mason, 1106 15th street, which is not in Edgewater Landing. He thanked Mayor Allman and acknowledged his character by bringing this information forward to those that did not know. He represents a large group of outraged Edgewater citizens and they feel Judy Lichter by this civil action has a conflict of interest. He would like to see them get a tax break but he would like to see himself get one too. She is putting Edgewater Landing before the majority. What she does has a long range impact as follows: it will cut the City budget, it will weaken school funding, it will take away County Services. Residents in the audience feel this is a personal attack. Mayor Allman stated he would clear the room and told Mr. Mason to continue. Mr. Mason stated it will cost a tax increase for the balance of the citizens of Edgewater, it will slow new construction and real estate sales therefore making Edgewater less appealing to prospective real estate buyers, it will make Edgewater less appealing to prospective new building and may open the door to a vast influx of modular homes throughout Edgewater by people seeking the same tax breaks. Therefore causing owners of site built homes to lose money through property devaluation. For Ms. Lichter to do this from her public office at her own monetary gain by saving taxes show poor character to lack of moral fiber in his opinion. The working class people of Edgewater have built this City. We built her home, her roads, her cars and everything else she uses and consumes yet she says the blue collar or the working class people should not sit on this Council. He asked her if they aren't good enough to lead this City, why are we good enough to pay Edgewater Landing's taxes and why would they take the food off of his child's plate to do it. with this in mind, on behalf of some outraged citizens in Edgewater, he called for Councilwoman Lichter's immediate resignation from her Council seat. He also called that the City Attorney contact the state's Attorney and the Ethics Committee to investigate violations as follows: ethics violations, oath of office violations, conflict of interest violations and possible criminal violations. If Mrs. Lichter refuses to resign immediately, he hereby petitions the City for a recall election and to pursue civil actions for recouping the losses. Councilwoman Lichter feels they should have some order. Mistaken as the gentleman is. John Zino, 718 Navigators Way, asked Mayor Allman why that gentleman wasn't out of order. Mr. Zino stated City Planners have known for three years and have done nothing about the tax appeal. They could have budgeted to absorb it with no impact to anyone. They could have been looking into alternative sources of revenue. They did nothing. They obviously didn't think it was very important three years ago but now one week before the election it's an emergency. The city has no standing in this County appeal. They don't have the right to deny a citizens right to appeal their assessment. This is an outright intimidation and interference in the right guaranteed by state law. Every citizen by state law has a right to appeal their tax assessment. Mike Visconti, 316 pine Breeze Drive, read a prepared statement. He also spoke about Mr. Keenan and the suit the united Taxpayers had against the City. When this Council took over, the suit was dropped. He urged the citizens of Edgewater to vote November 2nd. Page -4- Council Special Meeting October 25, 1999 ~ ~ Henry Dardinski, 2704 Sabal Palm Drive, also spoke about Ed Keenan and the suit filed by the united Taxpayers of Edgewater. Mr. Keenan's letter to the Observer dated 10/19/99 and this Special Council meeting to discuss the litigation concerning the method of real property taxation in Edgewater Landing is nothing more than a blatant attempt to arouse the feeling of animosity and resentment against the residents of Edgewater Landing. The City has no standing in this suit at all. The Council calling this meeting so close to election day is nothing more than a vicious attempt to destroy the social fabric of our community. Steve Spollio, 217 Schooner Avenue, spoke about Councilwoman Lichter. He spoke about the Edgewater Landing residents not receiving special treatment because Councilwoman Lichter lives there. He spoke about the trash on Starboard and Navigator that has been laying there for the last ten days. He spoke about his grass being dead from the trash sitting so long from the storms. He spoke about the volunteers in Edgewater that contribute their time to help the children. He spoke about the volunteers in the hospitals and the CERT team. The suit was filed in 1996. He has lived here since 1995. He asked Mayor Allman where he has been. Jimmie Newell, Carter Mobile Home Park, spoke about paying taxes and the problems with his park. He stated everyone has to pay taxes. The point is no one wants to do nothing. He has been to City Hall and contacted the City Manager and no one has called him back. He is very aggravated. Andy Anderson, pine Tree Drive, he didn't feel the comment Councilwoman Lichter made about Mayor Allman was in good taste at all. He doesn't think it should be shared in public. If the taxes are decreased in Edgewater Landing, they are going to have to be picked up somewhere. That tax loss has got to be made up. He feels the folks in Edgewater Landing are pretty effluent and if anybody can afford an increase in taxes, they can. He commented on the leadership in Edgewater over the past couple of years. We have made nothing but progress. He spoke about the News Journal suit against the City being dropped. He feels they should leave well enough along and if it isn't broke, don't fix it. Ed Keenan, 1905 pine Tree Drive, answered the questions that were brought up earlier regarding the suit filed by the united Taxpayers of Edgewater. He spoke about the cost paid for sewer service and the sewer plant. He feels they were discriminated against with the rate between the other parts of the city and Florida Shores for the same exact service. He spoke about Edgewater Landing and the deal they are trying to pursue. He suggested we as a City do the best we can for all sections. If the people of Edgewater Landing are unhappy with it, they should form their own City. Gloria Wood, Edgewater Landing, stated she moved into Edgewater Landing in 1991. At that time, she was told they were paying around $800 or $900 per year in taxes. Her taxes are now $1,600 plus. She has friends who live in Edgewater in a beautiful brick home with an acre of property that are paying less than she is paying. She is a widow and when her husband died his pension died with him. They are ordinary people just like anyone here. Doris Hill, Lincoln Road, stated three months ago she sold a house in Edgewater Landing under 1600 square feet. The people that lived in that house only lived in it 5 months a year so they didn't get the $25,000 Homestead Exemption and the taxes on that house were $3,800 plus per year. She has a 2,000 square foot house and a double garage and her taxes are $2,000 per year. Page -5- Council Special Meeting October 25, 1999 .... ..., Ms. Hill feels they are being double taxed. They are being taxed as a mobile home and they are also being taxed as real property and they are also taxed for every bit of the amenities they have. The city is certainly getting their fair share of money from that subdivision. vin Castranova, Sea Anchor Circle, stated he joined the Edgewater Landing tax suit just so he would be treated the same as manufactured homes in Hacienda Del Rio who pay quite a bit less taxes because they don't own their land. The owner pays the taxes and they pay a fee like an automobile. He doesn't think that them going after being treated equal with other manufactured homes as any political bearing on the City. If we win the case, then we have been paying more taxes to Edgewater for all these years than we should have been and lightened everyone else's taxes. Dominic Capria, 606 Topside Circle, stated it is not if we win the case, we are going to win the case. Mr. capria stated in the last six years, they have paid $522,000 to the City that they wouldn't have paid if they weren't real property. Nobody really knows what the impact is going to be. We have annexed into the City land that will have manufactured homes. He understands it is leased land. Nobody is picking on them. Why pick on us? Because they think we have got a lot of money. I ain't got no money folks. Tony Mason, 1106 15th Street, stated he does not have any problem with Edgewater Landing trying to lower their tax bill. He didn't realize this was a debate on that issue. He knows these people have raised their children and are trying to have the golden years. His concerns are his family his children and the education of all the children who will one day be sitting in these chairs making decisions that will impact everybody. They need their education. He spoke about not being able to cut City funding or City services. His concern is 1) they will take away from the schools and 2) if we cut City services, these people that value their homes so much are going to realize they are going to depreciate because the City is going to decay. He stated he appreciates this being brought to their attention. It's not a matter of the lawsuit. All the power to them if they can get it. He wishes they were fighting for him. Edgewater Landing is river front and valued at a higher rate therefore paying a higher rate like a river front site-built home. He is concerned how this will impact his family and how their could be a potential conflict of interest for someone to be in this and still on the Council. Councilman Roberts asked if they have figures from the County Appraiser's Office because people have different opinions and we are getting different stories on numbers. City Attorney Clayton stated they have no numbers or calculations. We have from the lawsuit the filings that were made and those indicate an average value of the home and land and the taxes that were paid. It also includes copies of tax bills together with the affidavits of the various plaintiffs showing that there is about a 19.66 mills of taxes that go to schools, city and hospital district and that does not include the millage that would be collected by the County or other, such as the st. Johns River Water Management District. You would apply the 19.66 mills if you accept the theory that that is apportioned to Edgewater area hospital school and City and apply that to the home value and the home value was stated variously from $40,000 to $70,000-$80,000. Councilman Roberts stated wouldn't the Tax Appraiser's Office be able to tell us exactly what the impact is and how much they pay so we don't have people bickering over numbers here tonight. Page -6- Council Special Meeting October 25, 1999 '-' ...., Gigi Bennington, 121 Virginia street, stated she wants the public to be aware that when Edgewater Landing was annexed into the city, by some mistake, it was off the tax rolls for two years. For two years the people in Edgewater Landing did not pay any taxes to anyone. Mike Visconti, 316 pine Breeze Drive, spoke of the City being divided. Let's unify the City and everyone pay a fair tax. Gene Empter, 513 Ports ide Lane, stated the meeting was called to talk about the tax implications. He thinks the main issue is the fact that the quotation in the newspaper and the quotation in Mayor Allman's paid political ad are totally erroneous. The issue is not the tax issue. To him it is the divisiveness that has been created in the City of Edgewater which is really a travesty. Why should, from day one, Edgewater in the newspaper and on the streets be the laughing stock of this part of Volusia county. It has been that way for two years. How long is it going to go? The real issue here is some of the statements that are made here creating a divisive nature, not only in the community but on Council. It should be a unification effort, not a divisive effort. This is clearly a divisive effort and it shouldn't be. Where is the leadership and competence in Council to bring the City together? Not tear it apart. Ry Richlave, Edgewater Landing, contributed toward the legal costs for the lawsuit involved. He feels some things are leading astray. The judge has not ruled yet. The lawyer for the county admitted there is a problem in equitable treatment under Florida's law to guarantee equitable treatment. The lawsuit asks for equitable treatment under the law. The City has nothing to do with it. It is not a suit against the City or against paying taxes. It is a suit that challenges the way the law is applied. When all is said and done, there are no witnesses and nothing to fight. This is an issue between lawyers arguing in front of a judge the validity of the law based on precedent. This will most likely end up in the Florida Supreme Court. By the time it gets done, if the suit should win, the most logical outcome is the legislature will change the wording of the law. Andy Anderson, pine Tree Drive, spoke about the Pledge of Allegiance. He questioned Edgewater Landing not paying taxes for two years. He was informed that is not true. He stated since it is not true, he can't comment on it. Betty Cope, 720 Navigators Way, stated she moved into Edgewater Landing in 1989. She immediately began paying real property taxes because that was the bank who handled her mortgage insisted she do. Whether or not you collected taxes from Radnor Corporation on the property they own is not Edgewater Landing's problem. Thelma Empter, 513 Ports ide Lane, stated Edgewater Landing cares about Edgewater. They try to be good citizens and are involved wherever they can. By large, she thinks our community is extremely proud to have a qualified member serving on Council. Judy has her support and she thinks the support of many other people. Norman Billups, 1868 pine Tree Drive, addressed the audience. It has been a higher authority that has brought on all the destruction in the City and elsewhere. The city has done the best it can. He comes here in violation of his doctor's orders. He told him to stay away from the City, otherwise he is going to have a heart attack so be ready with the ambulance. He has been here 22 years. He was ashamed of each and everyone of you for your lack of interest in getting out and voting. If you voted, fine. He feels the turnout was too darn slim. Page -7- Council Special Meeting October 25, 1999 - ~ Jimmy Newell stated he has been here just under 20 years. He doesn't feel the last two years have been bad or the last four years. He spoke about how bad it has been in the past. Andy Anderson, Pine Tree Drive, stated he has no animosity towards the people of Edgewater Landing. Charles Gebelein, 1730 Umbrella Tree Drive, stated one of the things he finds objectionable here tonight is the fact that when this meeting started and there was an attempt to have Ms. Clayton explain what the suit was all about, one of the people from Edgewater Landing objected to that and said that was improper. He thinks if that had been done, a lot of the miscellaneous arguments that have been made here tonight would not have had to be made and there would have been a greater depth of understanding of the issue involved. He thinks one of the real issues here isn't whether they are allowed or not allowed to appeal a tax decision. Of course you can. He stated one of the people on Council is a party to the lawsuit. This should not be. He feels she should withdraw from the suit or withdraw from Council. He doesn't feel it is proper for a person to be suing the City for which they are sitting. Councilwoman Lichter stated the lawsuit is not against the city. Dick Martinez, 317 Schooner Avenue, stated when this attack came out about a conspiracy he asked Ms. Lichter about her divulging this to the City. She has divulged her part on the tax case to three city Managers starting in 1997. She divulged it to the city Attorney at the time. She has been to two or three attorneys that have all said there is no conflict of interest in her doing her job here on Council. Councilwoman Lichter stated there is no impropriety at all with her sitting on Council and being a plaintiff in a case. She has gone to a private attorney today in Deland as well as contacted the News Journal attorney who gave her a definitive statement that she is in absolutely no legal problem being in both cases, as a plaintiff and as a City Councilperson. If a vote is deemed to come up concerning this subject and the City thinks it has some type of impact with a case that is already started, which is against the Assessor and the State Revenue Department, then she would ask the City Attorney on that one issue shall she pass and not vote. She spoke about issues in the past where councilpeople have deemed it not appropriate to vote. Back in 1989, the Edgewater Landing paid their taxes in a choice of one manner or another. They had a choice back then as did every homeowner in the State of Florida who owned their house and the land, either ad valorem on the house and land and consequently get homestead or did they want to pay ad valorem on the land and their accessories. The eleven plaintiffs representing about 90% of the park has got to do with a State Amendment to an existing State Statute covering mobile homes. It's a very complicated constitutional issue with very far ranging state implications. And then no doubt it will be appealed and go to the Supreme Court. And then no doubt before or after it may become a class action with other parks like then and then very definitely it will go back to the State Legislature. If by chance it happens to win, nobody can really factor in the exact financial ramifications. Edgewater Landing and Judy Lichter do want to pay their taxes but they also want to have equity with other mobile homes and with individual mobile homeowners on private lots who sometimes don't have to pay anything under this existing law. Her opponent knew two years ago and Mr. Keenan knew about this two years ago. She has divulged this information to the Managers out of courtesy. She spoke about a newspaper article in the News Journal a year ago. It has hardly been a hidden agenda. Page -8- Council Special Meeting October 25, 1999 ... ...., Tony Mason, 1106 15th street, stated he is a licensed real estate inspector and he would like to clarify a statement Ms. Lichter just made. Edgewater Landing consists of what is classified as a modular home. It is not a mobile home. They are considered nationally, on a federal level, as a permanent structure. Councilwoman Lichter stated they happen to exist legally under a state constitutional law that calls them a mobile home. She stated maybe that needs to be fixed too. Mr. Mason stated under the laws of the state of Florida and the guidelines set down by the united States, a modular home is considered equal to a site-built home. There was a ten minute recess at this time. City Attorney Clayton stated she did not know of the lawsuit until she read about it in the newspaper. She went on to explain the lawsuit. She referred to minutes from a Special Meeting on April 24, 1986. She passed out copies to Council. She further informed Council of the outcome of the research she has done. City Attorney Clayton spoke of the city being a stake holder in the outcome and should make known to the Court matters which are not currently before the court. If the city is an indispensable party, that before the Court rules on the merits and there have been no rulings on the merits presently, if the City wishes to intervene it must do so before the Court rules on the merits, otherwise the fact of the cities stake in the outcome of the matter and the fact that the City has a stake in making known material facts not now before the Court and correcting misstatements of material facts that are presently before the Court would be a matter the Council should consider. She further commented on the law pertaining to the lawsuit. Councilman Gornto asked what they need to do as the Council to take the next step in completing the process of becoming associated with the lawsuit. City Attorney Clayton informed Council of the further research she would need to do. She will do this and present it back to Council the 1st of November or the Council now can say they wish to have no time lost and advise the Court that the City wishes to make known to the Court several matters they feel are not presently before it. Councilman Roberts spoke about discussion they had a couple weeks ago about a modular home that was set in Florida Shores. He asked for some clear definitions of modular homes, manufactured homes, and mobile homes from DCA. If they are going to be involved in this in any way, they need clear cut facts. city Attorney Clayton agreed to get the requested information. Councilman Gornto stated in the minutes from 1986, it implies agreement but is there no written annexation agreement. City Attorney Clayton stated she hasn't located that because she has had limited time to gather everything. They may have to listen to tapes to determine whether or not the minutes incorporate only the conclusion and not the reasoning. Councilman Roberts asked if the annexation would be by resolution. City Attorney Clayton informed Council what information would be available regarding the annexation. Councilman Roberts asked if defining these types of homes and how they are set on lots would have an effect on other parts of the City. There may be homes similar to the ones in Edgewater Landing that are put in other subdivisions throughout the city and will there be legal ramifications for those homes in other parts of Edgewater. City Attorney Clayton stated this does indeed have statewide ramifications. Page -9- Council Special Meeting October 25, 1999 --.. ...., City Manager Hooper commented on value being an issue. He recommended Council find out what it takes for the City to have standing as soon as you can and learn those facts and present those facts to the judge that is going to hear that case. Councilman Hammond asked if they have trailer hitches and wheels in order to be classified as a mobile home but if they are removed then they are fixed real property. city Attorney Clayton read from the complaint the material facts. It is for the Court to determine if they are component parts of the definition of a mobile home or of a modular home or whether it can be a mobile home and a modular home and that when you own the lot and are connected to water and sewer it is pretty clear you are a part of the real estate. They have said they aren't on a permanent foundation when in fact there is a permanent foundation. They have said the hitch is there but it has been removed. They are saying there are no permanent structures but there are permanent structures attached. Councilwoman Lichter stated the judge did come and look at Edgewater Landing, Hacienda Del Rio and Terra Mar village. This structure is put in in the same manner in the rental park as in the other park. He couldn't tell the difference between a rented house in Terra Mar and the house that owned the land underneath it. They thought, if this ever gets back to the Legislature, they could come up with different criteria. Councilman Roberts stated despite how it is taxed, shouldn't the Appraisers in Deland be using what the property is worth. City Attorney Clayton stated if you own your home and rent the lot, instead of paying $1,000 in taxes you will pay $90 in tag fees, $45 aside. Councilman Roberts feels those that own the property and the home should all be based on what the home is worth on the open market. City Attorney Clayton explained fair value applies when you are using ad valorem. It does not apply when you are talking about personal property or license tagged under motor vehicle which is what you become if you are not presumed to be permanently affixed under the existing laws. Councilwoman Lichter asked shouldn't the land under those circumstances have some kind of fair and equitable appraised value. City Attorney Clayton explained if you own your home and rent your lot, the landlord you rent the lot from pays ad valorem taxes on the entire real property which is the lot combination of all of the lots. Councilwoman Lichter feels the City should pursue any avenue it thinks is appropriate if they believe they have a part in anything. Councilman Roberts asked if there is any way to predict what the legal cost would be if they do become a part of it. city Attorney Clayton stated no but the preparation of a motion for intervention is just a matter of course. That is not extensive. The time it would take to do the research is not involving lawyers time. The discussion with the Attorneys of Record for the case and the Property Appraiser are matters that can be handled in direct fashion. At that point if the Court gives the City leave to intervene to present the material facts she has referred to, that is a matter of a hearing. Councilman Roberts asked if the County legal representation that is handling the Appraisers Office have made any comment to whether the City should be a part of this. Page -10- Council Special Meeting October 25, 1999 ..., ...., City Attorney Clayton stated she spoke to Jordan stewart, Legal Representative for Morgan Gilreath, and informed her of the meeting tonight and that they would be discussing the impact of the lawsuit and that there mayor may not be further participation on the part of the City in trying to determine the course of the litigation. She informed City Attorney Clayton this would be something they would welcome if we make known the City's position to the Court. Councilman Gornto made a motion that this Council approve and direct City Attorney Clayton to do the things necessary to bring Council to where they can be provided the information that has been provided on this case that we have in our records with the City, second by Councilman Hammond. City Attorney Clayton asked if he is including to bring this to the attention of the Court. Councilman Gornto agreed. Councilwoman Lichter abstained due to being involved in the action. Councilman Roberts asked if the city gets involved, will we be going to an outside legal source or is this something City Attorney Clayton would handle. City Attorney Clayton stated there would be no need for outside services. The motion CARRIED 4-0. Councilwoman Lichter commented on a statement in the newspaper concerning herself and one of the plaintiff's who they thought was the attorney for the case. That was in a paid advertisement. In no way at all has anyone in any way tried to hold up this case. It is evident to her that perhaps the assessor's office has relayed some information that will hold up the case. After one year of anxious anticipation Edgewater Landing has been very anxious to see that case settled. These are the kind of misconceptions that can go on in terms of what one political person can do to another and what any of you sitting out there could do to any of us. She hopes people would call her if they have any further questions. Councilman Roberts spoke about a comment made earlier by Dr. Charles Gebelein. He feels they should have listened to all the facts of the case before all the accusations came flying out earlier in the meeting. Jeanne DelNigro, 3130 Tamarind Drive, stated she is proud to be white trash of Edgewater. That is a quote from you Ms. Lichter. You claim you care about this whole City. She made two telephone calls to her when they were flooded in Florida Shores. Her answer to Ms. DelNigro was what does she care about the Shores. I care about Riverside Drive being under water. Councilwoman Lichter stated she doesn't think slander and lies are appropriate at this moment. Ms. DelNigro stated it is not slander and it is not a lie, a speaker phone with five people at her home. Dominic Capria, 606 Topside Circle, asked city Attorney Clayton about speaking to Ms. stewart about the case. Did you speak to Mr. McCork, their attorney. City Attorney Clayton stated she has a call in but has not been able to speak to him. That is the first order of business until she is able to speak to him. She tried to get to each of the lawyers who are attorneys of record in the matter to advise them a special meeting was being held to discuss the subject. Page -11- Council Special Meeting October 25, 1999 ......, ...., Mr. Capria asked about MH-2. He doesn't see anything in it that relates to property taxes. City Attorney Clayton explained zoning categories don't generally have anything to do with taxation. They have to do with the dimensions of the lot, densities and things like that. That category was created different from the other mobile home categories specifically for Edgewater Landing and it contains an unusual requirement that you own the house and the lot in the zoning category. Mr. Capria stated it sounds like the developer made the deals. As a favor, may he come into her office and get a copy of the April 24, 1986 meeting. City Attorney Clayton stated she may have an extra copy right now. What she handed out are excerpts of the minutes of that meeting. She will make a complete copy later. Mr. Capria stated later on he would ask for the tape. ADJOURNMENT There being no further business to discuss, Councilman Gornto made a motion to adjourn. The meeting adjourned at 8:02 p.m. Minutes submitted by Lisa Bloomer Page -12- Council Special Meeting October 25, 1999