03-13-2006 - Workshop
CITY COUNCIL OF EDGEWATER
WORKSHOP
MARCH 13, 2006
7:42 P.M.
COMMUNITY CENTER
MINUTES
CALL TO ORDER
Mayor Thomas called the Workshop to order at 7:42 p.m. In
the Community Center.
ROLL CALL
Mayor Michael Thomas
Councilwoman Debra Rogers
Councilman Dennis Vincenzi
Councilwoman Harriet Rhodes
Councilwoman Judith Lichter
City Manager Kenneth Hooper
City Clerk Susan Wadsworth
Paralegal Robin Matusick
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Excused
MEETING PURPOSE
The purpose of the Workshop was to discuss "ReflectionsU -
Mercedes Homes, rezoning and RPUD agreement on 833~ acres
of property located at the southwest corner of 1-95 and SR
442. Another project to be discussed was "Washington Parku
- Tony and Hope Pawlak, rezoning and assessment of 9.91+
acres of property located south of 35th Street, east of-
Travelers Palm Drive and west of Needle Palm Drive.
Ken Mitchell, President, Corporate Land Division for
Mercedes Homes, made a presentation regarding the future of
the McCaskill property called "Reflectionsu by going over
the attached Powerpoint Presentation. Mercedes Homes
builds about 5,700 homes a year. They are in locations all
over Florida. They are the 17th largest home builder in the
United States. That's fairly significant because they
really only build in three states, North Carolina, Texas
and Florida. He pointed out on a map of all the different
locations where they build currently in Florida. All the
way up to Jacksonville down to Stuart. They are working on
several projects in the Palm Beach/Fort Lauderdale area at
the present time. They also have a very large tract in
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Homestead moving up to Ocala. All of the little stars on
the map were all of their projects throughout Florida.
They are an employee-owned companYi they are a family owned
company. The Boucher family of Melbourne started the
company. Several years ago they decided to turn half the
company over to the employees so that everyone could enjoy
the success of the company and to give them all a stake.
Since that time the growth of the company has been just
tremendous so he was very proud to say that they have been
very successful throughout Florida. As they could see
there was a little spot missing on the map between Daytona
Beach and the Space Coast and they would like to be there
and hoped they would be gracious enough to allow them to
build in Edgewater.
Mr. Mitchell then introduced some of the members of their
development team. Scott Sterns was going to talk next
about some of the biological aspects of the property,
hydrological aspects. Ray Malavay, Principle with Boyer
Singleton Engineering was there. They had a number of
other people from their team there as well. They would be
glad to answer any questions that anyone had at the end of
the presentation. They were going to try and keep it short
and try to keep it concise and be open for questions from
anyone that wants to address any questions to them
afterward.
Mr. Mitchell then introduced Scott Sterns from Boyer
Singleton Engineering.
Scott Sterns, Civil Engineer, Boyer Singleton Associates,
as well as Project Manager for this development internally.
They spent the last nine months studying the project and
they had a team of consultants involved with the project.
He thought the first place to start with the project was to
talk about the existing conditions on the project, the
drainage and the wetland systems. The team of consultants
that they had involved ranged from GeoTechnical Engineers,
Civil Engineers, Surveyors, Environmental Scientists, as
well as Land Planners involved to do the site planning work
and they also had archaeologists involved.
Mr. Sterns then explained the existing site basically
consisted of upland pastures with large oak trees and pine
trees. There are two large lakes on the property that were
borrow pits. The site also consists of wetlands and canal
systems that connect all the wetland systems to the lakes
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onsite. He pointed out the main lake in the middle as well
as the other larger lake. There are existing canals that
discharge through the site and bring the water to the large
lakes and exit the site through an existing culvert system
that/s underneath 1-951 which is a Department of
Transportation culvert system that is maintained by the
Department of Transportation and they would be required to
get a permit from them. They have started that process and
actually have obtained a permit from them to do the
proposed drainage system.
Mr. Sterns then explained how the drainage works from that
point. What happens is that water discharges across
through these culvert systems into little Cow Creekl which
then discharges into this large wetland system that/s
between the City and 1-95. The water basically discharges
and flows to the south for a long ways all the way down to
the Indian River and discharges to the ocean from that
point. In the post development conditionl they were
planning to propose a system of ponds that would treat the
water that/s collected from the developed site then
discharge into the wetland systems and drain through a
series of canals. The design for that has been completed
and they have applied to the Department of Transportation
for a permit for the drainage system. They have reviewed
it and concurred with the permit so they have issued a
permit for the drainage connection under 1-95. In the
existing condition these canal systems that link the
wetlands throughout the site and discharge to the lakes
were developed through the use of the agricultural
practices on the site and they have done a very good job of
draining a site for agricultural purposes. They have
actually done too good of a job of dehydrating some of the
wetlands on the site. If they went out therel which they
welcome anyone to do and take a look at the propertYI they
would see that the wetland systems have dried out and they
have been stressed from this dehydration process. It/s
part of their plan in the post development condition to try
to sever the connections to some these canals and actually
let the water stay within the wetlands and rehydrate theml
which is something that/s going to standard practice that
the Water Management District warrants and would like to
see as far as improving the enhancement of the wetland
systems.
Ray Malavay then commented on their proposed land use plan.
Their proposed land use plan has basically four land issues
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associated with it. He commented on the big tract that is
agricultural, which at this time they are not changing.
They also had some low density residential, which is the
center of the project and high to medium density along 1-95
and a commercial mixed-use development towards the
intersection of both Indian River Boulevard, SR 442 and
Interstate 1-95.
Mr. Malavay stated when they look at the existing future
land use for this property they are only looking at a total
of 577 acres. When they look at that, they are looking
only in their current application for the rezoning as a
PUD. Out of the 577 acres they are talking about 450 acres
that are net usable. In that 450 acres, if they were to go
with the current future land use it would permit them to
have approximately 5,423 residential units and more than
9.8 million square feet of non-residential. That's what
the current future land says. Their proposed land use,
which is what they are proposing in this application
provides for only 1,362 residential units and up to 360,000
square feet of mixed-use retail office. Their proposal
provides low density residential around the existing
wetland areas, medium to high density along Interstate 1-95
as well as commercial areas, which were identified in red.
Town Home, their local commercial center, downtown center
and the big box possibility commercial center at the
intersection of 1-95 and SR 442.
Mr. Malavay commented on some of the main entrances of
their residential. He pointed out the main entrance for
the development being right along SR 442 as well as the
entrances to their village and community center. They have
incorporated the existing lakes that are on the property as
part of their development. They have two access points,
which provide for the full circulation of traffic within
their development. A majority of the development is single
family. They also have provided great community tracts
that provide amenities to their development, of a large
community recreational center there and also another one
along the lake. These are also going to enhance the
community, creating a special elegance that provides an
active community for all the people that reside there as
well as the City. One of the special features of the
project is 23,000 lineal feet of trails, that will take
them through the community, through either some of the
streets and sidewalks, etc. that provide for freedom of
pedestrian network through the development. He spoke of
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having usable water bodies and trying to provide a
naturally aesthetic cross section through their development
where they have use of the existing canal that will be
maintained, an existing creek if you will, with natural
bridges keeping and maintaining the 'natural areas as they
exist with the conservation areas, providing trail areas
that provide people where to walk away from the roadways
where their traffic is with a lot of landscaping mixed in
with their natural areas, one of the creeks that they are
proposing through the project and of course the housing
developments.
Mr. Malavay pointed out one of the lakes onsite and
commented on this being their main theme. They are trying
to maintain a natural composition of those existing wet
areas that are surrounding their lakes to be part of their
naturally comprising uplands and incorporating those into
the property. He then commented on their wetland boundary
and the existing aerial that provided where the current
site as it sits and very vegetated in different areas.
They have flagged those and gone through both the Water
Management District and Army Corp. of Engineers to
determine what are the delineation of those wetlands and
they have incorporated and decided as part of their plan to
maintain and preserve those as wetlands. When they look at
those areas and those have basically been concurred with
both the Water Management District and with the Army Corp.
of Engineers, they are leaving the viable wetlands that can
provide the natural areas that once preserved will mix in
well with their development providing a natural habitat for
both people and the wildlife that exist on the site.
Mr. Malavay then commented on their project vision by
commenting on the natural combination of both the
development and the natural features that exist on the
site. They want to maintain their natural character of the
property. They do not want to go in there and clear out
the site. They want to maintain the site that has a
natural lake with some vegetated areas and keep as much as
possible the existing vegetation. They also would like to
provide a distinctive gateway identity for the property.
This gateway would provide a theming of Reflections so that
when they are coming down 1-95, they say they have arrived
at the City of Edgewater and arrived at the community of
Reflections. They would like to have a tower so they can
see and have some height or they can't be noticeable when
they are driving on 1-95. The other thing is having a
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consistent theme, a theme that provides the same natural
setting, mixing signage but at the same time it's natural
vegetation. For their village sign they would like to do
definitely a high landscaped knowing the name of the sign
out in a natural setting where it doesn't outstandishly
only look very aesthetic but at the same time natural.
Mr. Malavay further stated some of the things they want to
be proud of is the fact that they are using something like
in similar projects with Mercedes where they have natural
grasses growing on some of their lakes using native
landscaping, not only using exotic landscaping. So it does
blend in and create some of the landscaping natures of the
existing grasses and the vegetation in Florida.
Mr. Malavay then invited back Mr. Mitchell to talk about
the product they were going to be using.
Mr. Mitchell stated that one of the things that he wanted
to accentuate was the fact that they build houses for just
about anybody. Anybody that's in this room, anybody that's
not in this room, starting from starter families all the
way through people that are older wanting a low maintenance
lifestyle. They have got product to address every type of
person from every age range, from every category that they
fall into as they go through the aging process through life
and move from their first time home and then have children
and move into a little larger home. Near the end of their
time on this earth, they start deciding that maybe they are
going to take a smaller home and downsize but maybe it's
very high quality per square foot.
Mr. Mitchell commented on courtyards being very popular in
a low maintenance lifestyle. He pointed out a courtyard
product that they have in a project in Satellite Beach.
Again a natural balance. He also showed a redevelopment
project that they did on an old air force housing project.
They have got a lOa-acre site that they are redeveloping.
Typically around the ponds they have grassy areas that are
just like front yards. The problem with those is it leaves
no room for any critters. It tends to accumulate a lot of
fertilizer and a lot of other things. In this community
all the ponds are lined with native grasses. They have
several different varieties. It creates not only an
attractive use but it's also very much in tune with the
natural theme.
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Mr. Mitchell then commented on innovative architecture.
They won a number of awards for architecture. He showed a
picture of a 90-foot Lot Estate Home in a project called
Tulan in Tampa that they had developed. Houses there sell
upwards of a million dollars.
Mr. Mitchell then showed a 75-foot Lot Estate Home in
Orange City that was in a project called Oak Hearst, prices
in Oak Hearst are probably in the $250,000 to $375,000
range at this time. He the showed a 65-foot Lot Product.
He told Council to visualize in their minds the difference
between all these lot products because this was a very
diverse range of products but he thought they would see as
they go through, they really can't tell very much about the
lot size. He then showed the 65-foot product that looks
very similar to the 75-foot lot product. He showed a
picture of a project called Kate's Cove that they developed
in Jacksonville. He also showed an innovative type going
back to an old style of architecture that they use right
along the ocean in St. Augustine, more in character with
the area. It was a front porch product that was on a 50-
foot wide lot. He then showed another 50-foot wide lot and
he thought if they looked at it they would see that it's
really the architecture of the presentation that determined
the overall quality in the presentation.
Mr. Mitchell then showed Council a low maintenance
lifestyle project that they had over in Satellite Beach
which is the type of lifestyle that a lot of older people
are looking for now. It's a type of lifestyle he was
attracted to because he didn't want to maintain a large
yard anymore. He would rather have large open space
somewhere else within the community. There was a private
patio and a pool. These particular residents looked out
over a pond with all the grasses and everything else.
There was plenty of room there but they could leave for the
weekend, they could travel, they could do a lot of things
and they don't have to worry about an extensive yard area
to maintain. This was primarily for people that don't have
children anymore at home.
Mr. Mitchell then showed some of their medium density-
housing products. He showed a project called The Gems in
Melbourne. The density of this project was about the same
as the density that would be represented on the mid density
product that they have here. This type of product is
generally the entry to homeownership in Florida today.
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Unfortunately they price single-family homes. They have
pretty much taken out of the range of most first time
homeowners. Quality townhomes become the initial entry
point for a lot of the young schoolteachers that are
entering a community, police and fire people at the entry
level and still provide some opportunity for them to be a
part of the community.
Mr. Mitchell further stated everyone of their projects of
that size and character has a full array of recreational
facilities. He showed Council one they were getting ready
to do in Montecito. It was a 3,800 square foot amenity
center in a community that is styled in a Mediterranean
sense. They visualize that this community is probably
going to have more of an old Florida theme. All of their
communities have a particular theme but this is
representative of the quality of the centers that they
build.
Mr. Mitchell then summarized the project vision Mr. Malavay
talked about. They always like to sit down at the initial
onset and try and determine what it is that they want to do
with the community. When he first viewed this community,
when he walked out on this property it looked like what he
imagined Florida would look like when he moved here.
Beautiful large oak trees with Spanish moss, just
absolutely incredible character. They want to try and
preserve that to the extent possible. It was going to make
a great neighborhood.
Mr. Mitchell then commented on the Community Facilities
that they are committed to. They have already discussed
committing to the School District a 20-acre school site.
They have discussed with the City providing a two-acre
emergency services site. They have on the site an area
that they would dedicate to a village commercial center,
which would be more of a small town center where people
could take care of their immediate neighborhood needs.
Again, having a walkable community where if they needed
some groceries, they needed to pick up some dry cleaning,
they could walk there or ride a bike there, something
within the community. They have four miles of community
trails and those are not just within the developed areas.
Because this area has a lot of levies because they have
drained a lot of the areas and taken the dirt from the
ditches and put it up on the side, they have a lot of nice
areas where they can create some very nice walking trails.
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Some of the developments that they have coming after them,
he thought they had a good opportunity to provide linkage
with a hike and bike trail to a number of these other
communities. Something they don't see in Florida is they
don't have hike and bike trails here and it's a natural
environment to do that.
Mr. Mitchell then commented on community pools and fitness
center. They would have a large community center there as
well as some scattered community pools. They would have a
major clubhouse with a fitness center and other amenities
as well as a large number of pocket parks and large lakes
and a number of interconnected green belt corridors to
preserve the viability of all the natural features.
Mr. Malavay restated some of the things he felt were key to
making this an incredible community. He pointed out the
distinctive gateway identity sign when they come off of 1-
95 that indicates they have arrived at the City of
Edgewater and at the same time arrives at the community of
Reflections. Original commercial center located right at
the entrance, away from the residential areas. They have
two entrances, one for the commercial area and one for the
residential. They also provide a natural landscaping
environment.
Mr. Malavay commented on a community park that is located
in the center of the community for all the residential
people, a village signage that there was going to be a
keynote of showing the entrance to every village, and a
trail system that goes through the entire property along
the roadways. He pointed out the natural preservation
area, which was shown as a natural preserved area that
would be dedicated as a conservation area.
Mr. Malavay then commented on Creek restoration. Along one
of their main roads there is a creek that exists today and
they are calling it a creek that will be maintained and
give that natural looking feel to the environment within
the community. They are looking to have diversity of
product, something that will make Edgewater and their
development a great community as it is today.
Councilwoman Rogers stated the preserving of wetlands is
great, the utilization of native plants, the quality of the
town homes. It sounded to her as if they were hitting the
low income housing in that regard when they were talking
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about the young teachers. The trail system seems to just
be accessible for the residents of Reflections and Mr.
Mitchell had mentioned possibly linking it so that the
residents of Edgewater would also be able to utilize that.
Mr. Mitchell didn't know how familiar they were with
Community Development Districts in Florida. It is a quasi-
public governmental entity that allows a developer to have
special financing. They've got several CDD projects that
they are working with and they would anticipate that this
would be a CDD and that would be a separate submission to
the City. In a Community Development District, whatever
funds they utilize, whatever facilities they create, they
have to be accessible to the general public. Anything they
do with CDD Funds and they would intend to do this trail
system and a number of their amenities with Community
Development District funds would have to be available to
the general public. The developer to the north, they have
talked and they have even indicated that they might
consider going together with them on a CDD. They might do
the same or they might do different so they have the same
plan in mind. Obviously in that direction they would be
glad to accommodate them because this property is unique
enough. It really should be preserved for everybody, not
just people in their neighborhood.
Councilwoman Rogers asked if they were familiar with the
Metropolitan Planning Organization? Mr. Mitchell informed
her he was but not to a large degree.
Councilwoman Rogers stated that they are in the process
right now from what she understood of creating a bike path
through May town Road so she was wondering about the
feasibility of this linking with that. She thought that
would be a wonderful opportunity because then they are not
just having four miles, they would be able to assess those
other trails as well. Mr. Mitchell informed her that it
just helps him to provide more to the people who live in
their community. There was a survey recently in Builder
Magazine abut what people want, active adults, people like
himself and older that are retiring slowly. 41% of the
people that they surveyed want trails within their
community so they not only think it's a good idea, it's
also something that the public in this demographic is
really looking for.
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Councilwoman Rogers stated not just within a community but
tying into others because four miles you get bored after a
very short period of time. Mr. Mitchell stated
surprisingly golf courses were very low. They were down
about 20%.
Councilwoman Rogers asked where there was going to be a
two-acre emergency services station? Mr. Mitchell informed
her he didn't know and that that was something they were
going to have to work out with staff. He would expect it
should have an immediate direct access to the major
thoroughfare because obviously they want to get vehicles in
and out as fast as possible.
Mr. Malavay pointed out where he suspected it would be from
a land-planning standpoint. That's something that could
easily be provided wherever they need it and best
accessible to all the roads. Having a loop road system
that goes all the way around allows them to connect to that
road. They also provided a future possible connection to
the people south of them.
Councilwoman Rogers stated some of the lots they have were
50-feet wide and 65-feet wide and Mr. Mitchell kept
mentioning that he was getting to the point of retirement
and wants to have less to maintain. Are any of those going
to be restricted as a senior citizen community? Mr.
Mitchell stated that actually at this time what they were
really hoping to do more of was age oriented rather than
age restricted because there is a current point of view and
there is a current focus in the marketplace that people as
they age like to have areas where there are more people
like them but where they don't exclude children. An age-
oriented community might have gates for the security. It
might have a separate pool area that was maybe a smaller
pool and the activities in it were heavy with children and
heavy with younger people would occur at the community
amenity center. They are planning on having age oriented
but not age restricted at this point in time. They believe
there is probably going to be a very large age restricted
community to the north of them and he was sure they were
going to have plenty of things that they are not just
oriented toward the restricted part of it. They worry
about the legal implications. They try and build housing
for everybody and he thought their philosophy was not
necessarily take one group of people and push them in a
corner and have only that type of person.
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Councilwoman Rogers followed what Mr. Mitchell was saying
and he kind of already gave them a little crystal ball into
the property to the north when they say that that's going
to be more age restricted. Mr. Mitchell stated he didn't
know that but would assume with the size of the property,
their property isn't really large enough to get a huge
area. Typically when they have age restricted, they are
going to see a 20,000 or 25,000 square foot clubhouse with
just a huge number of activities and different things in a
full-scale retirement community. They really have designed
their community to be a broader spectrum community, which
services a lot of different individual needs because their
company's mission is to service a broad number of housing
types.
Councilwoman Rogers stated at the very beginning Mr.
Mitchell mentioned they have roughly 877 acres and that
they were going to be building and doing their development
within the 577, which is encompassed with the trail system.
So the balance, the 300 acres, which is on the outside, is
that to not be developed or were they looking to develop
that in the future? Mr. Mitchell stated currently the way
the line is drawn has to do with a line that was drawn by
Volusia County in discussions with the City of Edgewater.
That line represented the best knowledge of the time as to
where the wet/dry line was representing a wet/dry line.
Until they get into a piece of property and spend hundreds
of thousands of dollars. Delineating wetlands is a very,
very expensive process and at the time he didn't think
anybody had any idea of where wetlands were here and where
they were not. They knew that a large portion of that
agricultural is wetland but they also know that there is a
good portion of it that is high and dry. One of the things
that they will be doing it would require a land use change
with the County in order to go into that area and they
don't want to go there at this point. It is a time
consuming process but they will eventually be proposing
that they might do things like schools. They might do some
larger lots. Subdivision in the dry areas of that
particular area, as they see it right now the dark green
area has got a lot of very first class high quality
wetlands they would not anticipate touching at all and it's
got some upland areas that are very clear and clearly
delineated by their biologist as dry areas. So they will
be coming back at some point and probably opening that up
for discussion but at this point that's not under
consideration.
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Councilwoman Rogers stated that her concern would be that
future development and if it is possible to have the
property that's on the outside, which is the wetlands, have
a conservation easement on it prior to approving
Reflections so that they would have the protection as a
City that that's not going to come back to them. Mr.
Mitchell stated he wouldn't have a problem with that as
long as it was the wetland areas within that area. They
are more than willing to commit to that because that's
actually a cornerstone of where they see a lot of value to
the property. Part of it is from a feeling of being a
responsible developer but quite frankly part of it is also
the fact that when they build a house next to an attractive
natural area, there is extra value there. There are extra
aesthetic considerations that they think make a community
much more attractive. They are in the business of
providing communities that are sustainable that are
attractive communities over time.
Councilwoman Rogers commented on the traffic and the roads.
The main road they are going to be traveling is the west
end of SR 442, so how do they plan? Mr. Mitchell stated
they are in an odd situation because right now he has a
road to nowhere. He thought the traffic count on this road
is probably about eight or ten cars a day and all the
traffic that is there they are going to bring. He thought
the City was going to require at a minimum that there is a
four-lane divided thoroughfare all the way along Indian
River Boulevard and they would build obviously the southern
most lanes. They have talked to the developer to the north
and they are willing to work together with them on the
right-of-way, dedications and the construction of the
roads. They will build whatever they tell them to build on
the first phase of the development and on successive phases
they will adhere to whatever their requirements are. They
are used to doing that. If they are going to bring a lot
of traffic to this Boulevard they are going to create and
build whatever size road they need to handle that traffic.
Councilwoman Lichter thought that Williamson was going to
be coming down to there. She had been to several traffic
meetings in the past where that was pointed out, with
commercial on both sides of Williamson but that will give
them another north-south besides 1-95. She asked City
Manager Hooper if that was true. Mr. Mitchell pointed out
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where the alignment comes in right now and unfortunately
right now it goes right into a major wetland.
Councilwoman Lichter stated that it still gives access to
the north and south route that's coming right to them.
She then spoke about living in an adult community. She is
in her seventies and lives in a totally adult community
fifty-five and up. Now there can be some very positive
points of friendship, etc. There are some very negative
points from her viewpoint. It can be depressing. They are
dealing with people that she had met fifteen years ago etc.
pass on. The ambulance and Fire Department are in there
quite often. She welcomes all age levels. She really
misses children having taught school and when someone
brings a grandchild, everybody gets together to see that
grandchild. The idea of not restricting and the other
project above them, to the north is restricting to adults
she thinks it's really more natural and her children learn
a lot from older people and vice versa. In other words,
she just went to Hawaii with her granddaughter and she is
eighteen and Councilwoman Lichter was 75 so this was a
wonderful experience for the both of them. She is not gung
ho on total adult communities. Their project is lovely.
They are at least trying to take into consideration in the
economy we live in all economic situations of people. In
other words, the housing for new couples and sometimes
seniors would welcome living in that kind of establishment
also to the 70 foot lots, to the larger lots, she thinks
that's a beautiful diversity and their buildings are
unique.
Councilman Vincenzi asked about active recreation area
verses passive park. He asked them what the
differentiation was. Mr. Mitchell explained that an active
recreation area would be an area where they would have a
swimming pool, tennis courts, and that would be more
facility oriented. A passive recreation area would be
along the lake. He pointed out a pocket park as well as
other park areas. He spoke of one particular park area
having really signature Oak trees that are probably some of
the prettiest oak trees he has seen since he came to
Florida. That park is literally just to preserve those
trees. It abuts the lake. That's an area where they might
go and have a picnic, fly a kite, read a book, take their
kids so it's not an organized type or a facility oriented
like a playground or a swing set so they consider that
passive. The active would be hiking on the trails or
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Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
riding a bike on the trail. Passive is more sedentary,
more contemplative, maybe social.
Councilman Vincenzi stated on the map that they have it had
little black double arrows that separate sections. He
asked what that meant? Mr. Mitchell informed him that was
a cross section. It shows what it would look like he
guessed in a linear fashion. If they are standing there
looking along that cross section, they would see the bridge
over the canal, they would see the roads, they would see
the hike and bike path, they would see the street so the
cross section is looking across. It's just taking a slice
through the community and showing what that would look
like.
Councilman Vincenzi asked how many acres this was total and
how many were buildable. Mr. Mitchell informed him the
total was 877 acres and right now 450 net are buildable.
Councilman Vincenzi asked about the areas of low density
and areas of medium to high. If they were to take all the
net acreage that they have that they intend to build on and
calculate an overall density what would that be. Mr.
Mitchell informed him 1.5ish net acreage no more than 2.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated that the City of Houston has
around it a million little communities and they don't have
to leave those communities to get the things that they need
to live their every day life because of the traffic nobody
wants and she thinks that's the way to go personally. She
would love it if she could walk to get what she needed.
She was wondering if Mr. Mitchell was from Houston and that
was why they had that concept. Mr. Mitchell informed her
no, the first community he ever developed was an open space
community. It was at the time a new concept. It was one
of the first new communities and one in every five acres
was dedicated open space and it preserved all the parks and
it kept all its natural features and he was with that
community for about 8 years as a consultant and employee
and it was called Spring Park. It was developed by Raymond
Nasher who was a nationally famous developer and it had a
lot of influence on everything he has done since then
because its always nice to be able to protect as much as
they can and he was a big believer in that.
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Council Workshop
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Councilwoman Rhodes asked how deep the two manmade lakes
were. Mr. Mitchell informed her one was 16 feet and one
was 30 feet.
Councilwoman Rhodes commented on Mr. Mitchell stating that
they were going to drain into those lakes. Mr. Mitchell
pointed out which drainage was going to remain and there
are other drainages throughout the property that will be
intercepted. There are other drainages that are preventing
wetlands from becoming fully hydrated and where they
intercept drainage they will have a number of breaches so
that they can allow the wetlands to rehydrate.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated so those lakes they didn't
intend to dig out or dredge? Mr. Mitchell informed her
their initial plan was to make some modifications to the
lake and to allow some of the drainage into those lakes.
They have revised their plans since then and there is no
interaction with the drainage. All the drainage from the
subdivision is going into their detention ponds that they
are creating.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked how high the townhouses were
going to be. Mr. Mitchell informed her no more than two
stories. Councilwoman Rhodes asked how high the gateway
sign was. Mr. Mitchell commented on why he would like it
to be tall. He would like it to be 55 or 65 feet high so
it would be seen from 1-95. Councilwoman Rhodes asked if
the City's sign laws would support that. City Manager
Hooper informed her in the PUD in the front they could do
that. Councilwoman Rhodes mentioned just spending a lot of
money on a City of Edgewater sign. Mr. Mitchell further
commented on being flexible and trying to do what people
tell them they want to do within reason. He spoke of
having to bring people to this location and create them a
desire to buy a home here.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked if they were going to resell the
commercial part to businesses? Mr. Mitchell didn't now at
this time. He has been a residential as well as a
commercial property broker for most of his life. This area
right now in his view is not going to draw a lot of retail
interest until they get the body count up and they don't
have the body count at this point. That's not to say that
someone might not want to come in today and do something
because it's a good freeway location but his sense of that
is the type of use that he wants it may hurt him from a
residential standpoint. He would like to get the community
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Council Workshop
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started first. He would like to start to be marketing
houses and proving up the market here that there is going
to be people here. He would like to see the property to
the north get a little farther along in their DRI process.
The best time to develop and sell commercial is when there
is a really strong desire. He didn't think it was there
right now.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated that her concern about it was
they have a lot of people over here and they need jobs.
Mr. Mitchell understood but didn't think he was good enough
to bring people to this location with a road that only goes
a couple hundred feet past him and then stops. They know
this is a unique location. He also knew there was not
another off ramp for fourteen miles. His fear is that if
he comes in and does the wrong thing first on the
commercial basis, it's going to hurt his residential. He
was going to be real cautious about their first step
because it's a big retail site and it could either be
something that they are really proud of or something they
both are embarrassed about down the road. He wants to walk
that road carefully. He didn't know whether or not they
would sell pieces, commercial plot sites. They've got
commercial properties attached to a number of the pieces
that they are doing. They are a builder and a number of
them in the company have done commercial building. He
couldn't tell them right now exactly what they are going to
do there. He did tell them that he was going to try to do
something that won't interfere with the quality of the
residential community.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked if they bring their own crew in
or if they hire locally? Mr. Mitchell asked if she was
talking about on the residential side. On the residential
side they absolutely will have to hire locally. There is
no contractor that he knows of that they have in Melbourne.
Melbourne was one of the hottest markets right now and they
can't find enough contractors. They couldn't build this
out of their trade base in Melbourne or their trade base in
West Volusia. They would have to have a new trade base
here. Councilwoman Rhodes felt that was important.
Councilman Vincenzi stated so when they say they would be
hiring locally they would be contracting to local builders
or hiring local people. Mr. Mitchell informed him hiring
local contractors. They would be framers, sheet rockers,
electricians and stucco people. They hire every sub unit.
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Council Workshop
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There are very few things that they do turnkey. They
probably have 50 to 75 different subcontractors that they
bring to every house that they build. They've got to find
those in every market. There are some markets where they
can't go to a market because there's not enough trade
people there in the market to service them. He guaranteed
them whoever they have now was going to have a great
opportunity.
Mayor Thomas stated he had the opportunity to ride around
with Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Hooper and Mr. Henderson last Monday
and the land has changed. He then presented some history
on the land. He pointed out a borrow pit that was
absolutely gorgeous. It's crystal clear and was used to
build this interchange. If you know the State, they are
going to go to the highest place to build a road and when
they built I-95 on both sides there is a good high sand
ridge. They don't need any fill or anything and then later
on when they came in here and resurfaced I-95, they dug
this lake and at the landowners request he didn't like the
square bar pit so he requested and dug around like that
which was good because he didn't like it either and he had
them do the drainage system. They are talking about
building a road up here four-laning 442. He then pointed
out where their wellfields are. He was pretty sure that
this landowner owns a centerline of this to that road going
here. The landowner there goes there. If they four lane
that then it can't go this way because their wellfields are
there. Four lanes are going to have to go this way and
then they are going to have to go up. The wellfields are
right on the side of the road so they can't go south.
Mayor Thomas stated one of the other concerns he had was
the drainage system. Again where are we going? We are
going to Turnbull Hammock and that would be just fine with
him. Turnbull Hammock goes down here and empties into the
headwaters of the Indian River. Now this is a good
drainage system and they are utilizing it. His problem is
they just don't own it. The property right now is pretty
dry and everybody's got their theories but the four
wellfields are hydrating the land because Edgewater is
pumping two million gallons a day. It would be like taking
a glass with a straw and sipping out and not putting that
much in it. He didn't think they really had to worry about
it. He then pointed out the little bitty wetlands and the
class one wetlands right and they are still wet and they
are going to remain which is good.
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Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
Mayor Thomas' suggestion to the developer would be to leave
a little buffer on 1-95 so when they are going 1-95 they
will not see the back of the houses and the back of
buildings. It will be aesthetic for people traveling on 1-
95. They talked about that. He thinks it's a developable
piece of land and he thinks the way they are doing it is
very aesthetic and very good.
Councilwoman Lichter stated they mentioned there was an
archaeologist in their group. She asked if they found
anything yet and if they were planning to. She would be
interested because it's field she is interested in. Mr.
Mitchell stated they did do an archaeologist investigation
and they recommend either further investigation warranted
or not.
Councilwoman Lichter stated her other question had to do
with the animals. She asked if they had someone doing some
kind of research into that and what they had found so far?
Mr. Sterns informed her currently the only species that
they found on site that needed to be dealt with was a minor
amount of gopher tortoises but there are no eagles or
anything like that or anything that's come about on the
property. The Water Management District and Army Corp.
have both been on the site and they spent many days out
there onsite with them. That's the conclusion they came to
also.
Mayor Thomas stated there are all types of wildlife out
there. They saw wild turkey and alligator. They are going
to be bordering his 52,OOO-acre hunt club and he's got
about 35 or 40 black bears out there. He asked what they
were going to do when these bears are getting into people's
garbage. They are going to have to educate the public.
That is a potential problem that will happen.
Mayor Thomas asked for public comment.
The following citizens spoke:
Dave Ross, Needle Palm Drive, asked how many acres were
shown on the plat? Mr. Sterns informed him the whole thing
was approximately 900 acres. When they subtract the
agriculture area, which was about 300 acres, they have
about 500 acres. Mr. Ross stated he heard five hundred and
seventy seven acres, which meant everything except the
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Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
green. Out of that five hundred and seventy seven acres
there are four hundred and fifty acres net usable. Mr.
Ross stated so the blue area is useable? Mr. Sterns
informed him no the blue was conservation area.
Mr. Ross asked about the traffic count on Old Mission Road
on u.S. #1, what is it going to be when they are built out?
Mr. Malavay informed him based on 1,300 units it would
generate 13,000 to 14,000 trips. That would be all of the
trips that are generated. They have to go and do a study
that says how many of those are at peak time, how much are
at the certain time so then they can figure out what is the
impact that all of those go to the particular point in
question. Not knowing exactly where all those trips are
going, they would have to do a study that would have to
determine where would they go, how many would go on 1-95,
how many would go into town, etc. Ten trips a day are what
get generated out of one single-family unit, at different
times during the day. Not knowing time is peak, there
could be one or two of those that are during peak hours.
In order to do that they would have to do a traffic study
that would determine where they would go, how many would
come out, how many would distribute between 95, etc. There
is no telling. They would have to go and get a traffic
person that would actually do a study and can easily
determine that. They have to do a traffic study and they
haven't done that yet. Everything they would be saying
would be pure speculation.
Mike Visconti, 316 Pine Breeze Drive, stated a little while
back they had beautification in Edgewater and there was a
comment made at that time that this is not Boca Raton, this
is Edgewater and it will never be a Boca Raton. He thinks
Boca Raton will be the envy of Edgewater with this
beautiful project. It's well laid out, it's thinking about
everybody in Edgewater. Fifty-foot lots, the 65-foot lots
so that means everyone from the top of the line to the
bottom could maybe afford to live in this area. It's a
beautiful area and he thinks it's a plus for Edgewater.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated they are in the process of
changing the Land Development Code. She stated this is a
PUD and wouldn't apply. City Manager Hooper stated it
would apply. Part of what they are looking at, the Code
that is being drafted is going to have minimum lot widths
and that's across the board.
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Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
Councilwoman Rhodes asked if that was going to apply to
this project. City Manager Hooper stated it's a race.
What Council's struggling with is a minimum lot size
throughout.
Councilwoman Lichter stated but one development could have
multiple lot sizes? City Manager Hooper stated when it
comes to Council, the code's not there. The direction that
the majority of the Council has given to staff is to
develop a code that has a minimum 75-feet lot width. So
that's what is being drafted.
Councilwoman Lichter stated she thought that they talked
about the very point that some people in certain
circumstances want less. This is such a mixture. City
Manager Hooper stated they have and it's coming to them and
at this point it's a draft. It is being prepared. They
talked about it. He thinks this kind of presentation will
help shape their thoughts as to whether they want to say no
more less than 75 or some number or whether they are wiling
to have flexibility and control it as each one comes to
them so they are going to see both of those events
occurring in April and May.
Pat Card, 3019 Willow Oak Drive, stated first of all he
wanted to compliment this developer. This reminds him very
much of exactly what Councilwoman Rhodes was talking about.
His son lives in the Woodlands, which is north and west of
Houston in the area of Spring, Texas. This development
really reminds him of that. One of the things that he was
really pleased to see was that they were hitting all
different kinds of families but one of the things that
brings up is that there are going to be families with kids
between the ages of 10 and 15. What are they doing for
these kids? They are going to be in the middle of nowhere
here. Do they have anything planned for them? Could they
give them some ideas?
Mr. Mitchell informed him that they had a project very
similar to this that they were getting ready to build the
amenity center. He has already hired a program director
and she was interviewing all the people that are moving
into the community. They are developing a program for the
kids, tapered to the interest of the people in the
community. They are using that as kind of a benchmark now
because what they want to do is when people sign the
contract, they want to try and interview them within
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Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
several weeks so that as they build the amenity center they
can start working on the programming. The idea is that
they try and orient that amenity center more towards needs
of the people that are actually moving in.
Mr. Card stated part of that was his concern because
whenever they get four miles of unrestricted and unsecured
trails and they get 10 to 15 year olds who don't have
anything to do, they may have some real problems. Examples
of that are along Mr. Massey's property on the west side of
willow Oak. They always see kids coming out of the boonies
over there. They are going to have that group of kids so
they've got to have something for them to do. He wondered
what kind of security provision they were looking at these
isolated four mile of trails? Mr. Mitchell informed him
none at this time. Mr. Card asked what kind of security
would the City provide for four miles of isolated wooded
trails? City manager Hooper stated they would say it was a
homeowner's association issue. That's part of what's to be
discussed. Mr. Card stated so they get the trails cutting
both ways, great place for people to walk, great place for
kids to get in trouble and not just kids. They have seen
some situations with the homeless people here in the area
that they want to be aware of and whenever they get boonies
and easy access, they are going to have to look at that
too. He asked if they expect this community to have a near
one hundred percent occupancy rate on a regular basis? You
don't expect these to be many people in vacation homes?
Mr. Mitchell spoke of doing vacation rentals in Kissimmee.
Mr. Card stated so they really don't anticipate a high
winter population verses a low summer population? Mr.
Mitchell informed him they don't. Mr. Card asked if there
were any areas of this that they expect to have as a gated
community? Mr. Mitchell stated there is a certain segment
of the population that wants to have that security.
Generally as they get older, their financial needs are met
and a lot of their basics are met but their safety needs
become a little bit more important. So typically in an age
oriented community they would have a gated community. They
have about of the fifty or sixty active communities that
they have developed they have about ten that are gated.
They are very familiar with the process. Typically when
they do gated, he was also experimenting now with closed
circuit television cameras at all his entrances. So he was
sending those to a website and to a security company so
that if there is an occurrence, then they can identify who
caused the problem.
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Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
Mr. Card stated that was one thing he was thinking they
might want to consider on their trails. Especially if they
are going to be doing a security area some place else that
would be a cheap way to do it and the police in the area
are good. They are looking at a minimum of probably 2,600
cars in their community and probably 3,500 people, round
numbers based on what they have 2.4, 2.5. Out of that do
they anticipate having enough kids to do an elementary
school?
Mr. Mitchell stated that was one thing he can never predict
to a certainty. They always go into a community
identifying a specific buyer and a profile and half the
time they are right and half the time they are wrong. They
have made a commitment to the school district and they have
an option of having a school site up to some minimum number
of units. If they decide they have enough children to
justify it then they will have the opportunity to build a
school.
Mr. Card stated unfortunately he doesn't have all the
information nor do the other people on the Planning &
Zoning Board have the information that Council had tonight
but on its surface, this looks to be a really well planned
community and he looked forward to getting all of the
information in regards to it.
Dot Carlson, 1714 Edgewater Drive, representing ECARD,
complimented the Council. They brought up all the
questions that she was going to ask so there was no reason
to be here. She informed Mr. Mitchell she received his
email and she was sorry she didn't answer it but she would
be glad to meet him out on the property. They all know
that this is going to run into the Indian River Lagoon.
Mayor Thomas said that. These yards there would be
landscaping. This is going to run into the aquifer. We
have a very high aquifer in this area. There was a bubble
wherever you dig a retention pond or water a yard with
pesticide, it will run into the aquifer. She then pointed
out where the wells were. She didn't know how deep they
were but everything runs into the river and this gets back
to the environment. The Mayor is right. They are going to
have critters in their backyard because there are bears out
there and she has seen them. Someone reported a panther
but she didn't think so but it's a possibility. But when
they do come into the community, they are not going to
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Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
relocate, if the people can't take it then they will just
have to go right?
Ms. Carlson stated the other thing was the sign. They want
to put the sign way up and she would prefer that they
didn't see the sign from the Interstate. They've got a
sign for Edgewater. They've got the wheel, three sails and
a sunset. She didn't think they should have to view the
Reflection sign unless they are going to rename the town.
She would rather have off the interstate just a barrier
with natural vegetation and by natural vegetation she meant
the palmettos.
Ms. Carlson stated she talked to Mr. Lear about this. If
they could put in rain gardens in some of these areas
instead of deep areas, the swales. They can just put a
shallow swale. They could take it out. The homeowner's
associations recommend it. Also xeriscaping. Mr. Mitchell
explained typically when they are up against a wetland they
have to put in a swale. Ms. Carlson stated that's a rain
garden. It's not into the aquifer, it's not deep, and it's
not a mosquito hatchery. It just collects and filters a
lot better than what their deep retention ponds are doing
at this moment.
Ms. Carlson then stated as far as crime, more people, more
crime and that's what they put up with.
Mayor Thomas stated he was not an expert on the drainage
but he didn't think that they are going have to worry. The
aquifer is way down there so those people's pesticides and
fertilizers are not going to get to aquifer and the
drainage going into the Indian River they have got probably
fifteen miles so it's not going to get in there. He really
wasn't worried about that. His main concern was the City's
wellfields are helping hydrate that property.
Ms. Carlson had a copy of the Army Corp. of Engineers
request for permitting on this property and it does impact
some of the estuaries and the fish areas. She asked where
they were at on the St. Johns Water Management District
permitting. Mr. Mitchell informed her they were in the
process of getting permitted.
Mayor Thomas asked about most houses taking two or three
feet of fill. He confirmed they would be digging another
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Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
lake somewhere on the property and not bringing the fill
in. Mr. Mitchell informed him that was correct.
Mayor Thomas called a ten-minute recess at this time. The
meeting recessed at 9:00 and reconvened at 9:12 p.m.
Mayor Thomas stated that they had another workshop. It's
called Washington Park and Tony and Hope Pawlak. He
understood that staff was probably going to present this.
Development Services Director Darren Lear made a staff
presentation. He provided a point of reference as to where
the property is located at. It's approximately about 45
acres. The Pawlak's currently own 25 of those acres and
are looking to purchase another 20 acres. He then referred
to another map, which was a more up close view. The green
lines are originally plotted lots in the Washington Park
Subdivision. They were originally plotted at 50-foot wide
generally throughout the area. What they will see are some
paper streets, they are platted rights-of-way but have not
been approved. There is no drainage, pavement or anything
for those roads there. What they are proposing on their 25
acres is to improve these roads for access and then to plat
these lots at 75' by 115'. The Council would be seeing
that at a later date as far as the preliminary plat, most
likely they will be seeing that again once they acquire the
rest of the property.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if they saw this before? City
Manager Hooper informed her they have seen it parcel by
parcel as annexation. Portions of it have been purchased.
The Pawlak's have bought and then annexed. This was an
older paper plat substandard to meet any current
conditions. It's never been developed. There was maybe
one or two homes in the whole area. What they are trying
to do is assemble all the parcels together in essence
vacate the old plat, except for the streets and use those
current rights-of-way. Then, like the Shores, instead of
two lots, they are combining a lot and a half so they are
fifty footers where in the Shores it takes two to make an
eighty-foot lot.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if it was part of the Shores and
if it was meant to be? Mr. Lear explained they are trying
to make it a continuation basically of the Shores which
they have 80 foot wide, they are proposing the 75 foot wide
just because of the way it was platted.
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Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
Councilwoman Rhodes asked what the density was? At this
point, low density residential is the land use on the
property. The total number of units, he wasn't sure
exactly at this point. City Manager Hooper stated it's in
the four, four and a half range just because the Shores are
a little over four and it mimics very close exactly what
the Shores is.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if there was water behind them.
She remembered water being there some place. City Manager
Hooper stated potable water, city owned water.
Councilwoman Lichter was talking about wetlands. Mr. Lear
pointed out the wettest portion of this property. This is
a large parcel by itself and then there is another isolated
wetland on the property south of 35th Street and Travelers
Palm.
Mayor Thomas stated that he was confused. It said the
rezoning and assessment of 9.91 acres plus or minus and
they are talking 35 acres. Mr. Lear informed him it was a
typo on the agenda. They are currently on 25 acres. They
are trying to purchase about another 20 to get to about 45
acres.
City Manager Hooper explained what the owners were seeking
was an assessment program similar to what's in the Shores.
Owner on one side pays a third, the owner on the other side
pays a third and the City gets committed. It's to put in
the infrastructure and the streets so that's why they were
seeing it as a continuation of the Shores through this type
of program in which everything in here has that development
process in which it's a third, a third and the City puts
out a third at the same time. They are looking to make
that look like the Shores, expand that road paving, the
introduction of the infrastructure. That's the two things
they are looking at. The annexation's occurred, looking at
a plat. It is going to Planning and Zoning coming up
fairly soon. They want to make sure the Council is on
board and understand and agree with the assessment side of
it. That's what they are looking to do.
Councilwoman Rogers asked how many proposed units. Mr.
Lear informed her 75. City Manager Hooper stated the same
lot size and the same density as the Shores. The concept
when they first came to see staff was the continuation of
the Shores as close as they could mimic. Keep those
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Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
streets that are already platted that could be paved and
opened and used as normal streets like the Shores was when
it was developed originally.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked if the taxpayers would be on the
hook for one third. City Manager Hooper explained it was
an identical process to when the Shores originally went in.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated so it wouldn't be an assessment
just on the houses there. City Manager Hooper stated they
are paying an assessment. The City would get its funding
from whatever source the City chooses.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated in Florida Shores all the
taxpayers are paying back for the funding the City got on
their third. Is that the way he was expecting it to be now
or is that third that the City is going to pay, is that
going to be paid by just these people that are going to
live there. City Manager Hooper stated the people that
live there will pay two thirds of it. The other third
comes from a City fund. Councilwoman Rhodes asked if there
was a way they could make it for just this part of the
City. City Manager Hooper stated there was a way they
could do that but the concept the applicants are seeking
was the same type of arrangement that the Shores had. It
would be eligible for some block grant money and eligible
for opportunities to try and find other grant
opportunities. He thought they would be seeking that. He
also made mention of affordable and work force housing that
HBA and VCARD is talking to everybody about in which there
would be contributions for every development approved into
funding houses that are affordable for the working folks.
Councilman Vincenzi stated every other development that
comes in the City nowadays pays its own. City Manager
Hooper informed him that was exactly correct. The only
difference in this one was it's in essence and contiguous
and has been viewed as part of Florida Shores. Councilman
Vincenzi then stated why should that make it different than
any other new development coming in. City Manager Hooper
sated it has access through the Shores and using the Shores
streets. If somebody else came in and came off of U.S. #1
they are putting all the infrastructure in themselves. The
difference here is the backbone of the infrastructure goes
through the Shores. The water lines are continued through
the Shoes as well as sewer.
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Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
Councilman Vincenzi asked why the exception should be made
for this one. City Manager Hooper stated to him it is the
same as the Shores. Councilman Vincenzi stated that was an
existing neighborhood. This is a new one that is coming
in, even though it is a small neighborhood. City Manager
Hooper stated in essence it is an existing neighborhood.
It's a platted neighborhood, just not constructed yet.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked what the price range was of the
houses.
Marcia Barnett commented on Tony and Hope Pawlak building
homes in Florida Shores for many years. They have added to
the population. Florida Shores was a piece of property.
She didn't know why they named it Washington Park. The
price of their new homes now range from $230,000 to
$250,000 in Florida Shores. It depends on how long it is
going to take for them to get this done and start building.
She spoke of the impact fees increasing and now knowing
what the price of building materials would be. The price
would be in the range of the new homes in that area. She
spoke of having to go through Florida Shores to get to the
subdivision. This is going to be a continuation of Florida
Shores.
Councilwoman Rhodes questioned them not having a
homeowner's association or not maintaining anything. Ms.
Barnett stated the overall concept was when they started
the project was there are no lots left in Florida shores.
They found this pocket of lots that is named Washington
Park and they are continuing Florida Shores. They knew
they wouldn't allow them to do 50-foot lots so they took
those lots and divided them so they were 75-foot lots.
City Manager Hooper stated the area off of 16th Street, Tony
Mason, who had been in front of the Council some years ago
and was after the paving and assessments of a similar
district. Council offered that opportunity and agreed.
The problem was they voted no. When it came time to vote
there wasn't enough support from their local neighborhood.
It's not part of the Shores but it is connected. They have
a few cases where that has occurred.
Councilwoman Lichter stated Florida shores was done several
different ways before it became 1/3, 1/3 and 1/3 as it is
now. Other times both sides of the street paid the whole
thing or they got money from grants. She then commented on
Page 28 of 28
Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
Washington Park and a couple of developers buying all that
land but then they couldn't handle it. They couldn't sell
enough. They started to sell it off to sub developers and
no doubt Washington Park came around that way. City
Manager Hooper commented on it being an infill development.
City Manager Hooper further explained tonight's work
session was not to ask them so much a question as to say
this request to replat and correct that old antiquated plat
as well as the drainage is all coming through Planning &
Zoning and coming to Council as a package so they were
going to see the platting, the subdivision design, as well
as the assessment program and they go hand in hand so if
they are going to say no, they need to know that before
they get too much further along in the process. They are
going to go to Planning & Zoning in May and then to Council
the meeting after that.
Ms. Barnett stated where the lots are all 75 foot, there
are several lot because they built the houses around the
wetland and they are leaving al the wetlands natural and
it's going to be aesthetically very lovely. Some of the
lots are deeper than 115'. It will look nice and be a nice
addition.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated the only problem she had was the
assessment. If they were building houses for people on the
lower income scale, then she might say yes, the City has an
obligation to try and help people. Everybody that lives
here is a taxpayer and she feels an obligation to help
people when they can. But if they are selling houses at
the going market rate, she doesn't think they have an
obligation to as a City, taxpayers to pay that one third to
be honest. Ms. Barnett commented on it getting very
difficult in the area to buy a new home and work here too.
The Pawlak's are trying to work it out so it is affordable
for the regular population to have a brand new home.
Councilman Vincenzi asked how much the extra cost would be
per house to add another 20% for the road assessment. Ms.
Barnett didn't know the numbers but stated if it's not done
by the assessment method then they will have to go in and
pay for all of the development first and then the cost of
the houses are not affordable.
Councilman Vincenzi asked how much it cost to pave, put
sewer in and all that stuff for a 75-foot lot. If the City
Page 29 of 29
Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
were going to do the whole thing, road side to road side.
City Manager Hooper estimated it to be probably $2 million
to $2,225,000. Councilman Vincenzi stated so they are
looking at 30% of that? City Manager Hooper stated part of
that may come out but he would say they are looking at 30%
of that.
Councilman vincenzi didn't have any problem with
helping to look for grants or anything like that
not going to vote for the assessment part of it.
didn't see why the City should foot that bill.
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Ms. Barnett asked if they would help them get a grant and
then manage the assessment so when someone buys a house the
taxes and assessments are the same in Florida Shores.
Councilman Vincenzi informed her no because then the City
is still maintaining the debt on it. He asked why they
couldn't just add it to the price of the house.
Councilwoman Rogers stated her concern was 75 units and
what they just learned with the transportation is times
ten, 750 trips so to speak and they have already mentioned
using the existing Florida Shores roads. The residents
that are there already that have to deal with people flying
up and down the road. Now they have got 750 more trips
going up and down those roads. Ms. Barnett informed her
that wasn't an actual accurate count. It's not per
household. Councilwoman Rogers suggested they just cut it
in half and say 300, that's going to be a lot of traffic on
those roads so what she was getting at was that they need
to have more information. Have they done a traffic study
or anything on this and how it is going to impact things?
City Manager Hooper stated yes, there has been a review of
the overall subdivision and the review of its traffic
impacts. The numbers are small. They sound like a lot,
700 trips but 700 trips a day is a fairly small number
because a two-lane road typically handles 16,000 to 18,000
cars per day. A lot of trips. There are not any roads in
Florida Shores that exceed its adopted level of service.
They have talked about it in previous discussions. Level
of service tells how many trips can go on a road and they
have adopted a level of service need for their roads and
that's going to be somewhere around 10,000 to 12,000 trips.
All of their roads are in the 5,000 or 6,000 in the Shores
and it just doesn't get that many daily trips.
Page 30 of 30
Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
Councilwoman Lichter stated the part she didn't understand,
this was directed to Councilman Vincenzi and Councilwoman
Rhodes in particular. She lives in a development where she
did pay for her roads totally. The City didn't pay a
third. Her neighbor across the street didn't pay a third.
She paid for the road that was the price in her house. But
all of Florida Shores since it's been paved, there were a
couple of other methods in the beginning but the last big
group that got paved, the homeowner on one side paid a
third, across the street paid a third, that's including
Councilman Vincenzi and Councilwoman Rhodes too and the
City which includes her have been paying the other third.
So all of a sudden they are doing PUD's, other types of
projects when they are talking about they are doing their
own. She didn't understand how they expected the City, her
and them to pay the other third and now when they come up
with a similar type of project, they are right, part of
Florida Shores, they are included in there, they were
originally platted in there. She didn't understand why
they reject the concept of paying the other third.
Councilman Vincenzi stated those were homes that were
already there.
Councilwoman Lichter stated even now there are still lots
left for the last couple of years in Florida Shores and she
was paYlng a third for those lots.
Mayor Thomas asked what the population was of Florida
Shores. City Manager Hooper informed him there were 6,000
units in Florida Shores. Mayor Thomas asked what the
population was in Edgewater. City Manager Hooper informed
him 21,000 people. Mayor Thomas stated what he was asking
was what population Florida Shores represents? City
Manager Hooper informed him the majority of the population.
Mayor Thomas stated that's what he was getting at.
Ms. Barnett stated all they were trying to do was they try
to comply the density that they like. They are just adding
to Florida Shores and want the same consideration that was
given there and they felt it was a reasonable request.
Mayor Thomas stated well he thought they were here on an
exploratory and he didn't think it was going to fly. It
appears that it's not.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated to answer Councilwoman Lichter's
question. Even though she lives there, if she would have
Page 31 of 31
Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
had to pay their half then she would have had paid her
half. That wasn't what was required. She didn't think it
was right then and she didn't think it was right now. If
they had done any other place, any other new development
coming into this City, if they had done one new development
coming into this City that way then she might have a place
to go to say this was okay. But she didn't have that
place. The only thing she could think of was if they did
pay one third and they could put a special assessment on
just this special tax assessment to pay that back on just
these units, then she didn't have a problem with it.
Mayor Thomas asked if she wanted the user to pay.
Councilwoman Rhodes informed him yes.
Hope Pawlak, 925 Sugartree Drive, Port Orange, wanted to
address Councilman vincenzi. When he was talking about the
price of the homes and why wouldn't the homeowner want to
assess them another $10,000 or another $15,000. This is a
problem they have. They have been building in Florida
Shores since 1983 and it seems like the last year the
escalation of price of lots and what they have to sell a
home for is almost unreasonable. If they wanted to get a
schoolteacher, a firefighter, a policeman, a City worker,
they can't afford a $250,000 or a $269,000 home. The taxes
are high here and if they expect somebody to come in and
pay like another $15,000 or $20,000 for a home, they can't
do it. The last three homes they sold were to a couple
from Connecticut, one from New York and one from Baltimore.
The people who live in Florida who earn their bread and
butter in Florida cannot afford a brand new home. Now the
people who are reselling homes have gotten on the band
wagon and thought their house that they paid $87,000 for
now realize that maybe they could get $200,000 for it.
They are trying to sell their homes thinking that they can
go somewhere and buy another home and work out the same
deal. Just keep going up and up in pricing and getting a
profit. What they thought was that if everybody, the City
paid a third, and the homeowner paid a third and they paid
a third that they could keep the price of the homes down.
She has grandchildren who to go Edgewater schools and she
sees these teachers and some of them are her friends. It's
really difficult for them to get a down payment down and
look at the monthly price of a home. They have to figure
in their bank loans, insurance and taxes and by the time
they do that it's quite high.
Page 32 of 32
Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
Councilman Vincenzi stated he wasn't being rude but she
wasn't telling him anything he didn't know.
Ms. Pawlak stated if they add another $15,000 to the price
of a home, that's a lot of money. She realized people had
to work day to day and week to week sometimes. If they
keep the price of a home down where people can afford it,
they are going to bring in people and it will be a happier
community. They have their life invested in Edgewater and
in the Florida Shores area and wouldn't want to do anything
to ruin that.
Councilman Vincenzi stated that the price of the homes they
are selling for $230,000 or $250,000, even if they have
$50,000 to put down, he didn't know too many people who
could afford a $200,000 mortgage. Ms. Pawlak informed him
that was correct.
Councilman Vincenzi stated he couldn't and he was doing
pretty well. Ms. Pawlak agreed with him.
Councilman Vincenzi asked where the firemen and the
schoolteachers come in? They are not going to be able to
afford their house whether it's got the assessment tacked
on or not. Ms. Pawlak stated that they could afford it
better if they didn't have to pay another $10,000 or
$15,000 for it.
Councilman Vincenzi stated that he couldn't afford a
$200,000 mortgage.
Ms. Pawlak stated it's getting to the point where she
doesn't know what kind of people are going to be brought
in. They are going to be all out of state people buying
these homes. She watched the presentation of Reflections
and she was sitting there thinking that she was a poor
relative. She could never in her wildest imaginations
dream about this kind of development. It's beautiful, it's
gorgeous but she didn't how much they were going to sell
their homes for and she didn't know how much Coral Trace
sold their homes for.
Councilman Vincenzi stated that Coral Trace is another
example. They started out at $160,000 and now they are in
the mid $200,OOO's.
Page 33 of 33
Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
Ms. Pawlak spoke of trying to find lots in Florida Shores
under $85,000. When they started building here they were
$2,500. In 1983 they sold a three bedroom, two bath, one
car garage home with the lot landscaped, air conditioning,
everything for $39,900 and their larger home with a two-car
garage was $49,900. That was the good old days. They
can't do that anymore. For somebody just to get a lot in
Florida Shores they have to pay $100,000 or $85,000 for
lots. That's a lot of money and they just wanted to make a
continuation of Florida Shores.
Councilman Vincenzi stated that he understood what she was
saying and he didn't think her logic holds water.
Ms. Pawlak thanked them for giving her the opportunity to
speak.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked if they would be amenable to a
tax assessment being put on their houses to pay for that
1/3 so they didn't have to pay the $15,000 or $10,000 or
whatever it came to up front. They could pay it off over
several years if that could be done. Ms. Pawlak didn't
know.
City Manager Hooper stated it's very similar to what they
described before. It's one third and one third was going
to be from each one so it doubles the assessment that is
strictly on those properties. What they could do was,
there is a report from HBA and VCARD due at the end of this
month and they are struggling with affordable housing, work
force housing and a method to help pay for some of that.
Very close conversation but not exactly. But they are
talking of instead of what's called inclusionary zoning,
meaning if they had 100 units, they set aside 10% and there
is a cap of say $150,000 and those can't be sold for more
than that. HBA doesn't like that and neither does VCARD
and they are wanting to put cash in a fund in which they
can make some of these improvements and buy down the cost
of housing. These two things may be going down a parallel
path that could match at the end of that time period. He
suggested they let them get some information on that and
bring it back. What he was hearing them say was they are
not interested in tax dollars paying for it, assessments
and grants or any other way they can find they would be
interested in.
Page 34 of 34
Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
Councilwoman Rhodes stated if it was significantly lower
housing. If they had a house for $150,000 then she would
say yes. But if they are going to sell a house and they
pretty much are going to sell houses for the going rate of
what everybody else is selling their houses for. Ms.
Pawlak stated when they started building here the impact
fee was $773. Councilwoman Rhodes stated if they live here
they have those impact fees so the people moving into here
are not taking their money to move here and that's why they
do that.
Ms. Pawlak stated the last few families they sold a home
to, by the time they figured out what their taxes were in
Edgewater, it was like $5,000. She spoke of being able to
afford the monthly payment on something being more
important than the total price of anything. Councilwoman
Rhodes stated it shouldn't be but she understood what she
was saying.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated if it would help them out that
they could have a special assessment that they can pay it
over time, she wanted to help them because if they are
building then they are providing some jobs in this City and
she was good with that. But nor could she take taxpayer
money, she thinks it was wrong when it was done in Florida
Shores and she still thinks it's wrong.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked if they could direct City Manager
Hooper to write them an ordinance to read through the first
reading, to just have it read into the record and then have
discussion at the second reading.
Mayor Thomas asked if he could get through that first.
Councilwoman Rhodes thought they were finished. Mayor
Thomas informed her he had it open to public comment.
Ms. Barnett feels it is a shame that the Pawlak's have
added to the growth of the community and aren't allowed to
do the same thing that everybody else is doing.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if the roads could stay dirt?
She was looking for an answer.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated that everybody else that's doing
it is paying for it. The City is not paying one third of
anybody else's roads.
Page 35 of 35
Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
Mayor Thomas asked if they accomplished what the workshop
was designed to do for them. City Manager Hooper informed
him he understood where Council was headed. Mayor Thomas
asked him if he knew where he was coming from? City
Manager Hooper stated he knew where all of them were coming
from on this one. So they were going work about no taxes
and talk about assessments and other opportunities.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked if they could have Council
consensus or not a consensus to have City Manager Hooper
write an ordinance that they can pass or not pass. She
thinks they should let him write the ordinance and then if
they don't want to pass it then they don't have to to have
first readings read into the record without discussion and
all discussion come under the second reading.
Councilwoman Rogers stated from what the Attorney said in
the closed session, they must have the two readings because
it's Florida law and what Councilwoman Rhodes is trying to
resolve is that if they just read into the record the first
reading, then they are not making comments, they are not
discussing and they are not having public comments at the
first reading but then the second reading they will. City
Manager Hooper informed her that was correct.
Councilwoman Rogers stated that sounds great but she thinks
at the second reading they are going to be spending a lot
of time. She thinks that perhaps at the first reading that
they read and have the Council have their discussion. No
public comments and then at the second reading they then
have public comments. Councilwoman Rhodes stated that's
fine.
City Manager Hooper informed her the simplicity of it and
what City Attorney Rosenthal was describing is what most
other local governments do. They read into the record by
title only the first. They vote to send it to the second
reading and make no comments themselves and no comments
from the public. If they talk among themselves then it
becomes a public hearing and the public should be entitled
to talk. So the first reading is really nothing more than
a formality. It is really an endorsement that it has been
in the newspaper, being talked about by way of legal
advertisement. They are passing onto a second reading and
they take the two public hearings that they currently do
and they do it at one hearing. He didn't think it was
going to save them much time but he thought right now they
Page 36 of 36
Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
do it 50/50 and get comments but they don't have a lot of
repeat comments.
Mayor Thomas asked if he didn't think it would save time.
City Manager Hooper informed him he didn't know that.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated that she thought people talk at
the first reading and then they say the same thing at the
second reading.
City Manager Hooper stated they might get some of that but
he was seeing a lot of the second readings go very quick,
that they just read them into the record. He highlights
them real quick and usually they don't but there will be
exceptions to any rule that any of them think of.
Councilwoman Rogers stated then of course what if they say
no at the first reading and then what if a developer comes
back at them because they have said no at the first reading
and there hasn't been any discussion. Councilwoman Rhodes
stated that they couldn't say no at the first reading.
City Manager Hooper stated that was correct. All they are
doing is reading it into the record.
Councilman Vincenzi stated he didn't have any problem
discussing it twice.
Councilwoman Lichter stated she thought twice was probably
preferable if they could tighten it. It has to be
tightened. In other words they will really watch the
clock. If several people are going to say the same thing
and it's already been said she didn't think it was
necessary to repeat it again. She was not adverse to the
two.
Councilwoman Rhodes felt it would save time. She didn't
think it would in any way inhibit the flow of the Council
and the public. She didn't have a problem discussing it
twice. She was just trying to alleviate the backlog that
they have and that they probably will continue to have.
Mayor Thomas stated that it really didn't matter to him.
He tried to come up with some suggestions to six o'clock
and six o'clock is not working. They wanted to go every
Monday night and he said they were doing workshops every
other Monday night. He wasn't coming on Saturday. In the
future they are going to have a time certain at ten o'clock
Page 37 of 37
Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
and what doesn't get brought up. What they are having now
with this Council from what the difference when he sat in
the Council meetings is they are really thoroughly
discussing matters and he thinks that it's really healthy
for the future of Edgewater.
Councilwoman Rogers asked
comments to five minutes.
that was controllable and
run the meeting.
if they could limit the public
City Manager Hooper informed her
up to the Council and Mayor to
Councilwoman Rhodes stated there has to be public comment
according to the Charter. Councilwoman Rogers stated but
they have five minutes and asked if they could say three
minutes. Councilwoman Rhodes stated they don't have to
have public comment before and after. It only says they
have to have public comment. City Manager Hooper stated
both. At the beginning and at the end.
Councilwoman Rogers stated just limit their minutes then
they've got to learn to be more brief and organized.
Councilwoman Lichter stated if it's on the agenda and they
are going to be allowed to speak on the agenda, she doesn't
think they have to hear it twice in one night and that's
what's happening. They talk more than the five minutes
before and then when they open it to the public because it
requires that, they are talking the same thing again. She
would definitely say that subject is on the agenda..
Mayor Thomas stated that he has been telling them that if
it's on the agenda or not to discuss it. City Clerk
Wadsworth has ordered him a sand hourglass where they can
see how much time they have. City Clerk Wadsworth pointed
out the only problem with the sand hourglass is if somebody
doesn't speak for five minutes, they will have to wait for
the sand to finish. Mayor Thomas told her to order two of
them.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated there has to be a way to
expedite their meetings. She asked if they could limit
that the public speak once.
Councilwoman Rogers again suggested they limit their
minutes.
Page 38 of 38
Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
City Manager Hooper stated this perception issue was what
they are going get into all of a sudden. In the beginning
the public gets an opportunity to speak about anything on
the agenda. At the end, the Charter says that there is a
time for the public to get up and speak after everything
has been presented. It's unusual to have that in the
Charter. He has never see it in another Charter but
they've got it.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated it's important that everybody's
voice is heard but it doesn't need to be heard over and
over again, the same voice.
Councilwoman Lichter stated so if they say it before and
after, they don't have to talk at the time of the ordinance
do they? City Manager Hooper stated it's open for public
hearing on the ordinance. They have an opportunity to
address it then and what's what Mayor Thomas has been
saying for the last three or four meetings, consistently if
it's on the agenda, please hold your comments until that
public hearing. That's been working better.
Councilwoman Rhodes then suggested cutting the time to
three minutes. City Manager Hooper stated that was up to
Council as a group and that there was nothing in the
Charter that says how long.
Mayor Thomas informed City Clerk Wadsworth she better order
a three-minute hourglass. City Clerk Wadsworth informed
him she just ordered the five-minute hourglass. Mayor
Thomas asked her to order him one of each.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business to discuss, the meeting
adjourned at 9:55 p.m.
Minutes submitted by:
Lisa Bloomer
Page 39 of 39
Council Workshop
March 13, 2006
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