02-06-2006 - Workshop
CITY COUNCIL OF EDGEWATER
WORKSHOP
FEBRUARY 6, 2006
6:30 P.M.
COMMUNITY CENTER
MINUTES
CALL TO ORDER
Mayor Thomas called the Workshop to order at 6:30 p.m. in
the Community Center.
ROLL CALL
Mayor Michael Thomas
Councilwoman Debra Rogers
Councilman Dennis Vincenzi
Councilwoman Harriet Rhodes
Councilwoman Judith Lichter
City Manager Kenneth Hooper
City Clerk Susan Wadsworth
Paralegal Robin Matusick
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
INVOCATION, PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
There was a silent invocation and pledge of allegiance to
the Flag.
MEETING PURPOSE
The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the 2006
Goals/Objectives to provide direction for staff in their
implementation.
City Manager Hooper informed the Council the package that
they had was a goal setting agenda. They started this back
in 1998. He got here in October of 1997. They had their
first one in March of 1998. They have usually been the
first quarter every year since then. For some reason in
1999, there was a vacant year but they had in their package
goal setting, each year of what was projected to be
projects. These are fairly closely and tightly connected
to the budget. As staff they use these. Part of these are
telling them the status of the things that are in this
current budget and then their input for how they budget for
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next year. There are two sides to the goal of this policy
and what they try to do.
City Manager Hooper stated last year for the first time,
after the work session they took the goal setting and
placed it on the agenda. So it became an agenda item that
they voted, adopted and accepted and then they used that as
a kick off for going into the budget. That's their intent
this year, assuming they clearly get to that point.
City Manager Hooper stated the goals are usually short term
that they were seeing. They are a one to two-year approach
and that approach is related mostly to budgets but they
have some larger policy issues that they talk about. They
talked about some of the things that they are looking down
the road in a two or three year process. He thought they
would like get to a process in which they do multiple year
budgets so that they would be appropriating one budget but
capital for this year would be planned and appropriated in
following years to expand some of that. That's becoming
modern government if you will of thinking ahead and making
sure that what they build is capital projects and that they
are also looking at the funding to operate those in the
future. Most of the input they would see tonight,
generated by the directors that were all there tonight and
as they talk, if there are any questions, they will come up
and join them at the table.
City Manager Hooper further stated he had taken on their
front page and showed a summary or condensation of all the
directors, their verbatim was included in their package so
that they could see their view of what each department was
doing. He tried to summarize it for Council in an order in
which they could at least discuss that list of projects.
These for the most part are appropriated. They are adopted
in the budget or they are things they want to talk about
going into this upcoming year.
City Manager Hooper then commented on Economic Development,
ParkTowne Center. He felt the best way to do this was for
Council to ask questions as they go through it instead of
trying to go through it all and come back.
City Manager Hooper commented on the summary of what the
Economic Development Board was doing, what they propose to
do and where they were going with some of that. He then
commented on job creation. For ParkTowne itself the whole
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objective was to buy the property that they did from the
Florida Inland Navigation District, make the necessary
capital improvements, sell the property for enough money to
pay the debt service and then put the infrastructure in for
the next phase and the City's win out of it if you will, is
the tax roll gets increased and then the creation of jobs
for the young folks that are coming up through high school
to have a place to work.
City Manager Hooper then commented on the commercial growth
along the 1-95, SR 442 interchange. In the last two years
they have approved a policy to put water and sewer at the
interchange. That's been implemented. The idea was a
mixed use of commercial and residential development at the
interchange, to be able to develop the interchange and get
maximum benefit of that land use. Most of it is mixed use
at the interchange and then they have some residential that
surrounds that.
City Manager Hooper then spoke about the industrial growth
at ParkTowne, Massey Airport and along Park Avenue. That's
the corridor of the City that's really slated for the
largest job creation and the largest industrial commercial
growth. If they start at U.S. #1, then went along Park
Avenue, everything to the north that really is ParkTowne.
They work their way further out. The next project they get
is as they head west, it's going to be the Massey Airport
and that is more than an airport. That's also aviation
related and expanding commercial. Mr. Massey is annexing
the part from his airport all the way out to Old Mission
with the intent that most of that along the Park Avenue
frontage is industrial commercial development.
City Manager Hooper spoke of having some job creation along
the U.S. #1 corridor for a medical facility. As they were
aware the hospital had purchased 60 acres south of us,
almost opposite the Hacienda Complex. That has a
police/fire station site that was donated by the hospital
to the City. The part of the goal of the Economic
Development Board is the creation of industrial jobs. But
highlighted in there one of the strong one, which is new
for us is probing into the medical facility side. With
that 60 acres it is slated to be continuing care, a hospice
and a walk in type of a clinic, a minor emergency room and
then the ancillary support which is probably going to be
doctors and medical kinds of offices. They have yet to
submit a site plan. They have a team of professional
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medical planners developing their master plan. Their
engineering associated with their drainage. They should
see that coming through in Mayor June of this year.
City Manager Hooper mentioned the major construction going
on in ParkTowne. Timaquan Trail, which is the most
easterly road that runs north and south. They will see
three large ponds being constructed, drainage improvements,
there are large concrete pipes. Those move the water from
that area over to the canal and out to the Gabordy Canal
further out to the Indian River. That's about $1.3 million
worth of construction, design and permitting out of last
year's budget. Construction dollars and construction
contract awarded this year. They had the groundbreaking
ceremony he believed in November. He thought most of them
attended. Contracts underway, that's going to open up the
infrastructure to sellout the balance of the first phase,
which has sold and the new price, for any future
development is probably in the $125,000 per acre. Mr.
Massey, Oscar Zeller, and Scott Porta are all in the
$125,000 to $137,000 for any property that's being sold.
City Manager Hooper commented on when they got into that
business, their first year was $50,000. They had the
opportunity to purchase the property from FIND for about a
$5 million price tag that included about 160 developable
acres and then about $2 million worth of road and drainage
improvements came in with that. Their deal with Florida
Inland Navigation District was 10 years. The first 6 were
level loaded meaning equal debt service payments of about
$500,000 a year. Then the last four there was an interest
payment involved but the interest payment was a very low
number. It's what they would have invested with the State.
They have had 3 years worth of payments and have made all
three years in a sum. If they recall profit is going back
in. That's where the money for the improvements of the
drainage is. Their next project is Base Leg Road. Base
Leg Road is the first road they come in and see and it
would be off to your left or to the west and that's going
to open up about 60 acres of property that is going to go
down to Scott Porta's area but mostly on Massey's property.
Their agreement is a mixture of public, private
partnerships in which they have 4 or 5 private entities in
the ParkTowne. The City is the major holder. They have
created a Homeowners Association for lack of a better term
but a Property Owners Association and has everybody
involved. They have their own set of bylaws and rules.
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The City is a member of that. The City is the largest and
the vote-setting member of it. But as they sell property
and it changes hands, it turns into like they would see in
a normal Homeowners Association, that the owners themselves
would be able to vote and regulate more aesthetics, how
often it's maintained. He thinks the very beginning calls
for the City to do the maintenance of the roads. They are
public roads and drainage because the City installed those.
City Manager Hooper then commented on the 70-acre parcel in
ParkTowne that they talked about in the past that was Dr.
Morgan's piece. It's a component that is a member of
ParkTowne but has zero development infrastructures in it at
this time. Dr. Morgan and the City have talked on numerous
occasions. The property's for sale and that is probably
the missing component that they want to discuss whether the
City purchases, whether it goes into private purchase
development and hit it in the next year. There are several
players meaning other partners that are interested in
buying ten to twelve, the City buys all seventy and then
they turn around and sell part of that. That's more of an
informational item. As they get closer and if they do want
to purchase it that will be an agenda item that they will
go through.
Councilwoman Lichter felt for years they have neglected and
she has brought it up in the past and that's economic
improvement or development or beautification of Hibiscus
and Guava. In other words, small industry that already
exists, small businesses that are here she doesn't think
they pay enough attention to. She was wondering if
Economic Development could not get in contact with some of
those owners, perhaps talk about some beautification, some
improvements, maybe a sign on SR 442 letting them know
what's back there. She thinks that's a neglected area of
the City and there are some pretty good businesses but they
just go on at the pace they were before. She thinks there
are smaller industrial parks also off certain streets, an
industrial area and she thinks they've got to concentrate
somewhat on what they have as well as what they want. She
thinks that would improve the look of it and the morale of
the whole City.
City Manager Hooper agreed with Councilwoman Lichter. He
explained what's occurring is new projects along Guava and
Hibiscus are developing. They are meeting new standards.
They are looking like industrial buildings, commercial
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buildings. Where they struggle is some of the older ones,
they were put in without drainage. They have some unpaved
area. Since the Codes have changed, those are getting
under more pressure and phased out. The City has put some
grant money. They have been able to obtain some that will
help with the drainage. But as for aesthetics and signage,
they haven't done much with that.
Councilwoman Lichter stated maybe Economic Development,
which happens to be an excellent board, might have someone
to address that problem.
Councilwoman Rhodes commented on coming up with
incentives but not only on Guava and Hibiscus.
like to see it happen on u.S. #1 and everywhere
some
She would
else.
City Manager Hooper stated that those are done in other
places, where a city will put aside in their budget a
hundred thousand and they match. Instead of the City going
after grants, they get the people who live here going after
improvements. They tried some of that after the
hurricanes. In the hurricanes, many of the signs blew down
and the people were making repairs. Mr. Lear met with most
of those that had pole signs and they were ugly so they
were trying to get ground signs and they were successful in
a couple of places. Many just said no and their offer was
that the City would pay the difference. If the pole sign
cost fifty thousand to repair and a ground sign was sixty
thousand, they were going to pay the ten thousand. They
had some luck. Some just said no thanks, they liked their
sign the way it was and wouldn't deal with them.
Councilwoman Lichter felt maybe if it wasn't a City
official, some of these members of Economic Development are
very experienced and it might help. On the side of the
bank that they did not buy, there are industries and
further down that street and all that need water help with
the water problem and some type of morale boost.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated that if they go down u.S. #1 in
any city in Volusia County it looks terrible all the way,
including the City of Port Orange. It looks kind of run
down.
City Manager Hooper stated an incentive program works.
It's dollar so it's money coming into a program to help
upgrade. Logically they spend money on the beautification
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of medians that would certainly make some sense to help
with the beautification on those private properties
adjacent so that they would look better. He agreed to look
at that, if that was a direction, put that in the budget
for some incentive programs and think that through and help
them have a package that would go in with the budget.
Councilwoman Rogers stated when she spoke to City Manager
Hooper last week in reference to Regions Bank, the vacant
land that's adjacent to it, the doctors had purchased that.
She asked him if he had heard anything as far as what their
plans were and if they were planning to build medical
professional buildings there?
City Manager Hooper stated what he believed they were doing
was they have the vacant land that they purchased. Their
initial intent was to build a new doctors facility. They
since then have purchased the bank. They have a contract
but they have not closed on it. He thought they were
rethinking that and may want to develop the bank as their
doctors facilities and then they are looking with the
property adjacent to build a new bank, sell it back to
Regions so that they can build a smaller bank and then some
other kind of support medical facilities. Things that
would help with laboratories or so forth for the doctors
office.
Councilwoman Rogers stated that the reason she mentioned
this was because of the Economic Development Board. With
the medical facilities that they are probably going to have
built here, with the 60 acres that Bert Fish has acquired
further down u.s. #1. With these doctors buying that
property and with the contract at Regions Bank, it would
seem that Edgewater has in the future, hopefully they are
going to have a nicer looking u.S. #1 then some of these
other cities because they are going to have these medical
facilities and doctors. Those types of buildings and to
attract the patients that they want to have come in are
going to look a lot nicer then some of the existing
buildings that they have right now.
City Manager Hooper agreed and informed her a couple of
things have occurred. Code enforcement has been strong
along u.S. #1. Even though ours aren't very pretty, they
are better then what they see along the u.S. #1 strip in
other areas so that's constantly upgrading. Where there
are new buildings and facilities coming in, those meet the
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new Codes.
along u.s.
describing
process.
They are going to have development standards
#1, gateway corridors so exactly what she was
was going to occur as part of the redevelopment
City Manager Hooper asked Liz McBride to get the brochure
that the Economic Development Board had developed. It's
basically a brochure and it has room for inserts depending
on who they are going to meet with. If they are off to an
aviation type convention then they put in those kinds of
facts. If it's a health convention but they probably would
be very pleased of the overall highlights. This is a
brochure put together mostly by the Economic Development
Board. Shannon Lewis did quite a bit of work on it and the
County paid for it. He felt it was quite an eyepiece.
Some years ago he thought the Chamber had done one. It had
a little picture up front and the Edgewater logo. This was
a far advanced portion of that and they have five boxes so
there are a lot of them. The County gave them a grant and
paid somewhere around $15,000 to put them together and then
do the printing. He felt they would find it pretty
attractive. Now the Economic Development Board's homework
assignment was the insert so that as they develop facts,
demographics, more details to meet with certain kinds of
companies, that becomes the basic marketing material and
then they add to that the additional fact that they want to
present when they do go on conferences. There are a couple
local ones in Orlando dealing with medical facilities that
are looking to relocate. Annually they go with Boston
Whaler to the Miami Boat Show and set up a booth with them.
Sometimes they go to Daugherty and they set up a booth.
They are part of that and their boat building facilities
are growing and expanding and moving like crazy right now.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated she knew their budget was cut
and asked if were going to have a budget for the inserts.
City Manager Hooper informed her they did have the budget
for that. Most of what they cut was Shannon's time. They
looked at what had been utilized of her last year and they
have had a $30,000 budget item and they were using less
time. That's for some of it and then some of the trips
were reduced down so that instead of multiples going, a
single individual goes and shares that information.
Councilwoman Lichter stated they still have the gentleman
that is the provost at the College on their Economic
Development Board. Has there been coordination with the
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college and the boating industry? The college and the
doctor and nursing industry to provide that type of
training? Has that gone any place? Because he said he was
very interested.
City Manager Hooper informed her that had occurred and he
was aware of that. He spoke about the article in the
newspaper that the main campus opening a law school and a
medical school. Kind of a preliminary for those going back
to FSU but that is working and expanding. The doctors
indicated to them that any programs that either Brunswick
Whaler is interested in he would certainly make happen at
the campus. Some of that's occurred. He has described
that his enrollment has exceeded their expectations and the
college is growing and will only get stronger as the high
school right across the street is developed and 10th Street
is widened. All of those are in favor of the college
growing and growing at a fast pace.
Mayor Thomas asked about the canal that runs along 10th
Street. They talked about it the other day and nobody
really owns it and it would be up to Edgewater to get in a
joint venture with New Smyrna and the County to clean it
out so the proper drainage does occur. He asked City
Manager Hooper if he needed direction to do that and if
they were going to do that.
City Manager Hooper informed him he was working on that.
He had a meeting with New Smyrna and the County last week.
They brought it up, discussed it and now they are
scheduling a meeting in which they can figure ownership.
That's a very difficult question because that is the city
line between New Smyrna and Edgewater. He believed that
the County had jurisdiction but it takes all of them in a
room to talk about who can clean it up. There is some road
realignment as they fix or widen 10th Street. That canal
needs to be repaired. That's the drainage for not only
that area but our whole City, half the City drains through
that. That's part of what they are working on and that
would be occurring in the next 30 days.
City Manager Hooper then commented on the Comprehensive
Plan Update. They heard the smart growth story. A couple
of things in there that occurred is Senate Bill 360. It
has some direct impacts. It is a large bill that describes
how growth management is supposed to work. It's probably
the first serious legislation since the mid 1980's when the
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Growth Management Act was put in place that created
Comprehensive Plans. By the end of this year they are
supposed to have for transportation a proportionate fair
share formula. DOT has drafted a go by model in which they
go back and look at whatever project is coming online. A
development is coming online, it produces trips. So as
those trips go on a certain road, they are supposed to be
able to track where they originated from and he should pay
a fair share of that expansion of that road. They have
very similar already in place an impact fee system that
works to do that. But if there are any gaps between those
dollars this ordinance is supposed to help cure that. At
the end of next year, 2007, they have a Capital Improvement
Element that's mandated. In years past, there was a
Capital Improvement Element in each Comp Plan but it wasn't
mandated to be updated and reviewed annually. That's
changed. They have a consultant, B & H Consultants under
way to work with theirs and expand theirs into make it
match the budget. They will see that adopted this year and
into next year they will see some of the changes as that
gets fine-tuned. The final thing in there that's not
currently being done is School Concurrency. School
Concurrency for Volusia County kicks in June of 2008 in
which if a school is over capacity, the developer is
obligated to either not develop or pay dollars equal to
what their impact would be. That's over and above school
impact fees so those start to kick in. He didn't want to
tell them that they are not doing something right now.
There is planning with the School Board. This last
Comprehensive Plan update that they went through. The
School Board gives them a list of each school. They tell
them how many seats are vacant and that's taking into
account when they approve or recommend approval and it goes
off to the Department of Community Affairs. There is joint
participation with the School Board. It's done regionally.
One of the promises made that have been included in their
last Comp Plan was that they would work with New Smyrna,
unincorporated Volusia County, Edgewater and Oak Hill and
have a plan that would identify school sites. As these
developments come on board, particularly the larger ones,
the ones out by the interstate or the ones larger to the
south identify sites for new middle schools, elementary and
high schools. They have some modifications to the Comp
Plan that are due primarily with the Manatee Protection
Plan. This last year they heard him talk about the
aggregation rule, that if they took the entire length of
the City and they get so many slips per every hundred feet,
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if those were not to be used they were able to aggregate
and control those by the City and they wind up with
something like 414. After everybody on the river and every
commercial place had their allocation there were some left
over. They've got a pool of those that they can sell, they
can lease, they can barter, they can use and to do that,
they have to go through and modify the Comp Plan. It
acknowledges first the aggregation rules and how those
rules would be put in place. If the developer wants to use
or come and borrow or come and lease those how would that
be put into effect. That's going to be in this first set
of Comp Plan Amendments coming up this year. Those
amendments are going to go through he believed in March,
they would see them on the Planning & Zoning Board.
Council would see them about 30 days later. Then it gets
transmitted to DCA. They would see it 90 days later and
then they would have their second reading of that.
City Manager Hooper then spoke about there being some minor
changes to the Recreational Element. Mostly instead of
identifying so many shuffleboard courts or so many tennis
courts per person, they are going to try to identify so
much in a way of square footage or acreage per person and
let that be a simpler rule to implement and follow. He
then spoke about some minor modifications to the land use
depending on what they do with the Land Development Code.
They talked to them at the work session a week or so ago
that if they went from gross density to net density, some
Land Development Code changes were strong enough. They
were referred to back in the Comprehensive Plan. It was
going to take both of those modifications to make that
occur. They would have two cycles next year. April is for
the first cycle. The second is not scheduled but normally
it's done in August or September for any modifications to
the Future Land Use Plan. They saw in the paper the DRI
for the property out west. It is separate from those two
cycles. It works its way through the system stand alone
and independent of the cycles. They may see that this year
but he would predict it would be in 2007.
Councilwoman Lichter expressed concern with one thing about
the Recreation Open Space Element. She thinks they have
learned to work with the cities around them and the County
that's part of that. It's an imaginary division. The land
is in common and she thinks there are places where they
touch New Smyrna with that might apply, Oak Hill and the
County. She didn't know if they meet with them on that
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type of thing. She thought they mentioned it in smart
growth.
City Manager Hooper stated that those were two different
steps. What occurs on the Comp Plan and it's easier to
describe it in terms of water. They allocate so many
gallons per person and that becomes their level of service.
Switching now to recreation, they allocate so many square
feet per capita of public open space or parks. That's
Edgewater's job to say they guarantee for 20,000 people
they will have so many square feet of open space. The next
level, they can go and talk to New Smyrna about how to
share or how to use the open space. The City is still on
the hook for our amount to provide the same as new Smyrna
for so many of their population.
Councilwoman Lichter asked does that go through also to
hiking path and the bike path. Is that how they do it?
Where does that directive come from? That there is going
to be this hiking path through Volusia County.
City Manager Hooper stated different levels. The State can
create their own and it stayed on in control. The railroad
right of way, the spur that goes from U.S. #1, it goes west
out to 1-95 and then goes all the way down to Titusville is
being sold. That's being sold to the State and the Federal
Agency so they buy the railroad right of way. They convert
it into the Rails to the Trails, comes through your City.
They can have some minor discussion about how it's
developed and the drainage but it's really controlled by
outside agencies. But as the County and State go up, they
have little control over that. Pass that any local trails
or any kind of boardwalks are up to Council to decide where
they want and how much of that they want to use.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if they were in on the bike path
and the hiking trails that she believed when through
Volusia County? Are they part of it? She asked if Jack
Corder could answer that.
Leisure Services Director Jack Corder stated currently they
are in on the initial phase of the planning. That's as far
as they go with it on the Rails to Trails. That's the
County and the State working its way through.
Mayor Thomas
on the Miami
felt they should have some say.
Corporation. They are going to
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They do out
build through
Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
them and he has gone and had meetings with them.
trading some land. He thinks they can have some
they want some say.
They are
say if
City Manager Hooper stated part they can ask and part they
have final control. A city, a County and the State really
has no say over railroad properties. So the railroad owns
that right-of-way that the Feds granted them authority
starting in the 1800's. They have the right to sell it and
they are selling it to a State and Federal Agency. That is
exempt from the City's rules or the County rules so they
are exempt. That doesn't mean they won't coordinate, come
in and talk. Just what Mayor Thomas said can occur. They
can say well that railroad path comes right through where
they want to do something, it sure is a mess and they will
give them a hundred feet but they are going to move it over
to the perimeter of their property. As long as it's
connected at both ends, generally they will work with them.
Heathrow had one of those, where it went right through what
you see as the center of Heathrow and they moved it over
next to the interstate. So they had the road and then a
bike path through there. So that occurs. They are nice if
they work with you. The railroad is usually very difficult
to work with and so are the feds as they know. They have
to negotiate with a little leverage.
City Manager Hooper then discussed the Land Development
Code Update. They had some discussion. They had their
work session on that. He identified what he believed came
out of that and that's a desire to change from the gross
density calculation that they currently do to a net density
calculation. The gateway standards primarily along U.S.
#1. When he says that that's from U.S.#l on the north side
of Edgewater all the way through down to Ariel Road. They
are having standards that will apply to new development and
then some redevelopment standards for the existing portion
of the City. The existing portion as they just described
is most difficult to work with. For example, Dr. Chess
that was in front of Council. That will be the type of
issues they will face time and time again as people have
small properties that either go through redevelopment or
something like the mobile homes that have parks that try to
change into something else because there is no space. They
are limited over drainage that they can do. Setbacks are
real difficult because they have already got structures up
there. But they work with them the best they can to make
something that's better then they have today and it may not
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match all the rules but the idea is to make it so that it
is aesthetically better. They have those gateway standards
along there.
City Manager Hooper then commented on flood plain/wetlands
protection. Some of the things they talked about were
restrictive use below the hundred-year flood plain. Very
strong rules about wetlands protection. They have most of
those in place. There are some enhancements that they can
do about compensating storage and they can go all the way
to saying no filling in below the hundred-year flood plain.
City Manager Hooper then spoke about architectural
standards. He believed they were talking about commercial.
He didn't think they were into homeowners in talking about
house colors or any of that. Maximum height restriction.
As a group they talked of fifty feet. Then the minimum lot
size at 75 feet. His idea is to develop a set of changes
or propose modifications to the Land Development Code.
That process would go back to the Planning & Zoning Board
and go through as their land-planning agency. Have them
review and have them comment. Have the public comment and
then it works its way through the process. They are going
to require two public hearings. The only one of the ones
he talked about that really related back to the Comp Plan
that's going to take even longer, is the one on the net
verses gross density that's defined in their Comprehensive
Plan.
Councilwoman Lichter asked City Manager Hooper to explain
that in more detail.
City Manager Hooper stated simple example. A hundred acres
and forty acres of it are wetlands. Today if they went
there and they were entitled to five units to the acre,
they would have five times the hundred so they would have
five hundred units. If they went to a net density and
forty of it were wetlands they would have five times the
sixty so they would have three hundred units. So by that
simple definition they change the total number of units on
a piece of property without doing anything else except the
definitions. It eliminates the developer's ability to
transfer development rights over wetlands. They probably
couldn't or if they did they would be very expensive to
develop in an area that would be uplands. The caution and
what they need all to understand is they are talking of
jurisdictional wetlands. What he thinks is a wetland or
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
what Harriet thinks is a wetland or what the Mayor thinks
is a wetland, it only matters what the Water Management
District says is a jurisdictional wetland. They are the
ones who have the authority over wetlands. They can have
standards and how to protect it locally but they are the
ones that have the sole right to say what is a wetland.
They have the rules that identify that. Once that's done
and it's a pretty simple process that if he were a
consultant for a property owner, he would go out there, he
would flag them and put stakes. They call the Water
Management District out. They look them over. They say
yes that's right or no it has to be here. After that is
said and done it's surveyed that becomes a new boundary.
That's a magic line of a jurisdictional wetland.
Councilwoman Lichter stated in the development she lives
in, surrounding it are wetlands. Across the street where
she gets phone calls etc. there are wetlands. She thinks
that many people that come from different areas do not
understand what wetlands are. They think that when the
water flows and it's higher then other times, they think
it's going to go on their property. She had a case in her
development where people started to fill in the wetlands.
They didn't know they were wetlands. Tracey and Terry came
and helped explain it. There has obviously got to be more
education because people are moving near them and their
development may not even be directly touching it but they
are there. They don't quite understand the significance of
wetlands. They've got to be more clearly marked with maybe
signs posting because it's an education process that many
northerners are not aware of and she thinks it's important
when they put in developments whether they are going to
count net verses gross that people are educated to what a
wetland means.
City Manager Hooper said what typically occurs is they see
it come in as a development plan. It looks like a master
plan. Somebody may stand in front of Council and say well
here is what they were going to protect. They all agree.
They go away and they plat it. Then he shows up and buys a
lot and he says he would like his yard to be a little
bigger and he starts filling. He doesn't need permits from
the City to do that on a platted lot. It's already
supposed to be taken care of so they get that encroachment.
Little enforcement. Those are really difficult to do.
They deal with some of it but that's an education that it's
not only there but it's beyond what they do. That school
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
system and State system and St. John's that a lot of people
are talking about.
Councilwoman Rogers commented on the maximum height
restriction. She felt what was reported last week in the
paper was a little misleading. As was mentioned to her and
the City Council last week or at the workshop on the 28th
there was already in place the 35-foot height limitation
for residential. The fifty feet she was talking about when
she initially proposed it, she was directing more to like
RPUD's, the type of zoning where condominiums and
apartments could be built under. The residential 35 feet,
that should stand. As far as the limitation for
commercial, they probably need to discuss that a little bit
more. That's a concern because what happens if in the
future they build a City Hall and they need 40 feet. She
feels with the commercial they should have some flexibility
but the RPUD's or the type of zoning where condominiums or
anything more than two stories, that's where they need to
put the limit at no more than 50 feet. She thinks they
need to be real specific about that.
City Manager Hooper stated they have a table that they
showed Council last week that shows the height restriction
on everything except the PUD's. What he gleaned from last
week was residential on the PUD side is what they are
looking at as 50 feet. Councilwoman Rogers stated because
that's the zoning for where a condominium comes into play.
City Manager Hooper stated that's correct and that's why
it's going to the Planning and Zoning Board. A lot of
discussions are coming back to Council and he thinks those
things get fine-tuned. By then the hospital will have an
opportunity to tell them whether they want more than 50
feet. He didn't have any idea. If they are planning on
something more or that doesn't bother them, that's the
whole public process. For them to have somebody out there
come in and tell them they have been thinking of doing a
hospital with 62 feet what do you think. It's to get those
kinds of comments in front of them.
Councilwoman Rogers then commented on the minimum lot size.
The 75 feet was to be for uplands. When they are dealing
with the lowlands, she proposed initially one per one acre
and then Mayor Thomas proposed one per two and a half
acres. They need to be specific about defining an upland
verses a lowland. Especially with the proposed development
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
that is going to come to them on the west side of 1-95 and
already half of that is wetlands.
City Manager Hooper explained that what they are going to
see is when this comes back in front of them, instead of
those kinds of terms that are vague, they are going to talk
of things above the hundred year and below the hundred year
because those are technical areas that are drawn on a map
instead of uplands and lowlands.
Councilwoman Rogers asked so the above the one hundred
year, they are going to use that to define an upland and
below the one hundred year to define a lowland? City
Manager Hooper informed her that was correct. Those are
universal terms that every surveyor, every engineer that
comes in front of them to do one of these is familiar and
they know how to mark those.
Councilwoman Rogers asked would a biologist use that term?
City Manager Hooper explained that he uses that more so to
identify wetlands. He and the consultants were saying they
would be on a site that would flag wetlands. That's his
job. He looks at soil types. He looks at the types of
plant material and the hydrology of the soil to try to tell
then where that wetland would be. They could have a
wetland today that's dry if it is dry season but next year
in April or May when it starts to rain they are going to be
knee deep in the same water but they can't tell if that's
the same kind of soils that quick.
Councilwoman Rogers stated these large developments that
will be coming to them, she was assuming that will have a
toll poll presented to them and that of course was going to
show them the hundred year above and below. City Manager
Hooper informed her that was correct.
City Manager Hooper stated that he was going to hand one to
Council tonight that's going to be a large one, not the big
one that they talked about for 6,000 acres. This is about
900 acres.
Councilwoman Lichter stated she believed in the flexibility
of a PUD. Every lot, every development is different. Some
lend themselves to common areas like in a couple of senior
parks she knows and they clustered their homes closer. But
it's not only senior parks that lend itself to that. Some
developments lend themselves to three different types of
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
lot sizes depending and some have more than one style house
in them. They may have single-family homes, they may have
attached, duplexes. They might have something else
depending. She believes the greatest plus of the PUD is
flexibility, which includes height. She wasn't saying they
should be skyscrapers but she was saying that sometimes
when you use up more land then you should when you could
use less that might be an answer on a particular plot. She
thinks it's almost an insecurity and she was not reflecting
on anyone in particular to have to have on a PUD definite,
exact things. She thinks they should do their homework on
each individual development that comes in front of them.
She may end up the minority on that but she really believed
that there was room for all types of housing, all price
housing. Close and further apart depending. Some places
obviously you can't put it close together. You may well
need that acre or two and they are identifiable before the
fact. But generally there is flexibility and she was very
much in favor of that type of flexibility, which they now
have. The lawyer did mention when he was here last week
some possibilities of making a particular height and then
saying there are ways to make it more flexible under
certain circumstances. She was perfectly willing to hear
that again, that type of thing but she just wanted that for
the record.
Councilman Vincenzi stated for the record, he didn't agree.
He thinks the flexibility of the PUD is fine, however it
does need a few restrictions. Two of them would be height
restrictions and lot sizes. He thinks the majority of the
problems they run into with developments coming in are in
those two areas. He thinks the flexibility that they have
in negotiating these RPUD's is just too much. He thinks
they need some flexibility but not as much as they have.
He thinks that would eliminate a lot of problems.
Mayor Thomas called a ten-minute recess at this time. The
meeting recessed at 7:20 p.m. and reconvened at 7:30 p.m.
City Manager Hooper stated what he handed out was an early
version. This came in late November 2005, the McCaskill
parcel. It is 877 acres. It has about 600 acres with the
land use designation of mixed use and has about 300 acres
that's a buffer that surrounds the property. This is the
normal way they see an early set of plans. This was done
by an Engineering Firm, a Planning Firm. They bring in the
set of plans and this starts the staff review of the 900
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
acres that they want to develop on, what they want to do.
He referred to the table that talks about the use. It's
color coded where they are going to have smaller lots,
larger lots. He got a copy that they had sent he thinks
asking for a meeting with each of them, if it's not already
asked, it's coming, in which they want to try to do an
explanation to say at day one here is their plan, here is
what they would like to do. The only thing committed
today, which he calls an entitlement, is at the
interchange. Its highest and best use and it's been
determined to be a mixed use. They have only two areas of
the City that have his mixed use designation. At the
interchange and then they have along SR 442 by the Water
Plant where Coral Trace and the commercial parcel is. This
is more information if they have questions. If it is a
very detailed question, he suggested they get with him one
on one or they could get with Darren one on one.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated the letter she received said
they would do a workshop or they wanted to talk to each of
them one on one. She asked if the workshop would be
better?
City Manager Hooper explained that a developer would like
to do both. He is going to talk to Council and see what he
can learn and then do a workshop so that's the normal
protocol. When the attorney described to Council the ex-
parte communication, the legislative side of what they do
as a Council is done. They have granted them the land use.
The next portion is semi or quasi judicial in which they
are acting as the jury, that as the judge and jury do they
match the Land Development Codes and criteria and that's
the one that City Attorney Rosenthal described that they
could meet with them if they wanted to. There are a lot of
ways to handle that. This is just early discussions that
to date this is what's been asked for by them. This is
about 1,300 plus units and 360,000 square feet of
commercial. This is a sizeable project to the City of
Edgewater. The one to the north is probably ten times this
size so they will see a larger number coming through the
door. If they want to talk about this they can meet and go
over that separate. He informed Councilwoman Rhodes this
would be a work session. They would get to that. It's
just not occurring at this point.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if they met with the County on
this one? City Manager Hooper informed her no. This was
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
annexed 12 years ago or more. Mr. Lear informed him it was
annexed in 1994.
City Manager Hooper then commented on Recreational
Facilities. This was a list of each park and what they are
doing. Hawks Park is going to have an amphitheater, rest
room, soccer complex. This is slated for this year and
they have $460,000. That's a combination of some City
money, some grant money. Rotary Park has the shuffleboard
and racquetball court that is being relocated from across
the street at Kennedy Park. It's total is about $500,000.
They have some FEMA money in there. They have some
insurance money in there and then they have some match
money from the City. Kennedy Park across the street has a
fishing pier that's been approved and there is some match
money also for grants in there. Whistle Stop Park has
tennis court repairs and updates. That's what they have in
their budget. Those are capital projects. Those are in a
various form right now, either being designed, permitted
and if they have any questions and if they want to go into
details Leisure Services Director Jack Corder was there to
answer any of that.
Councilwoman Lichter stated it's no longer just a
Recreational Board. It also encompasses cultural and
historical. From day one she fought for that mural that's
no longer there because it got wiped out. That's not being
replaced however the shuffleboard courts are. That was
only $5,000 and it was taken from historical pictures in
this community and painted by the same gentleman, Courtney
Canova, who did all of Deland's murals and that historical
and cultural is supposed to be under Recreational Board
now. She thinks a bit they are missing the boat on this
type of thing. She didn't necessarily agree because she
was glad Dr. Chess was fixing that house and making it if
it really is a historical building it should have a plaque
on it. She still thinks he had to do the things they made
him do. She was wondering if they shouldn't be identifying
other places in the City that might be historical and
trying to encompass some historical ideas into their
recreational programs. By that she meant song, dance, the
history of the City. She knows that they have their little
historical building and she didn't think the Southeast
Historical Society pays enough attention to Edgewater and
she is a member of it and it's historical and cultural but
she thinks they have to look at that aspect also.
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Council Workshop
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City Manager Hooper explained that Board works on some of
that. They also work on beautification. He has
highlighted the big dollar items in the budget but there
are some smaller projects that are underway.
Councilwoman Lichter stated she would like to see
identification on some of the buildings or even the top
that's left over at the Hardware Store, was the first
school. She thinks they are disappearing. This street is
historical and she didn't think people really know. They
may go to Joann's one lecture and find out. She was
wondering if there was more they might look at doing.
Mr. Corder stated that he knew in the past that JoAnne
Sikes and Lynne Plaskett had made rounds and tried to
identify some of the older buildings in the City. It's
been kind of set on the back burner so he can push that
forward and have them further identify them. Some of the
problem is they have one house in particular where he
approached them about historical value and a listing and
they refused. They do not want value on the historic
register.
Councilwoman Lichter mentioned it being the original Hawks
house. Mr. Corder informed her it was a different site.
They can upgrade that and he can have them go back out and
put a list together and see who wants to be identified and
go from there.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked what about the Wilkinson house on
Riverside. She asked if that was what he was talking
about. Mr. Corder asked her if she meant the one on the
corner right there. Councilwoman Rhodes informed him yes.
She then asked how old the house was. Mr. Corder stated
they were asked about that house. They actually brought in
the County for that house and because of the condition it's
in, at that time they recommended not to pursue anything
with that particular home. Councilwoman Rhodes asked what
was being done with the house now. Mr. Corder stated that
presently it's sitting there vacant. Councilwoman Rhodes
asked if they could make something be done with it. It's
obviously a violation of many, many codes. City Manager
Hooper informed her they could do the condemnation process
if the goal was to declare it a nuisance. Councilwoman
Rhodes asked what the owners wanted to do. They just want
to do nothing with it? Have there been any discussions
with the owners to find out what their long-term plan is
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
for that house? City Manager Hooper stated that probably
to sell the lot and make a lot of money. Councilwoman
Rhodes asked if they could encourage them to do that in a
timely fashion if that's their plan. City Manager Hooper
stated that encouragement comes through Code Enforcement
saying that it's failing to meet and they start the
building permit process of reviewing it. He guessed they
have had a little complaint. It's sitting out there; it's
just there. Councilwoman Rhodes stated it looks to her
like at some point in time, there are going to be some kids
who think it's going to be fun to burn it down or smoke pot
in it or wear skates through it, vandalize it. It's asking
for it in her opinion. City Manager Hooper stated so they
are not so much describing it as a historical house as a
nuisance house. Councilwoman Rhodes stated that she thinks
it's a historical house very probably but like Mr. Corder
said if they have owners of it, they can't make them make
it a historical house if they don't want it to be that.
She asked if there was some way that the City could find
out what the intent is for that house. If the intent is
the property is going to be sold, the house is going to be
torn down well then that's the intent and let's help them
get on the road to making that happen. Encourage them to
get on the road to making that happen. If that's not maybe
they have a different plan, maybe they want to restore the
house. She was in that house ten years ago but ten years
ago it could have been restored, it could have been really
nice. She suggested maybe they could buy the property and
restore the house and use it for City use in some manner.
It's an eyesore and accident waiting to happen for the
owners.
Councilwoman Lichter felt the owners of the original Hawks
house should be approached again. That's a vital piece of
property. It goes back to the original. What else could
they ask for of the founder of the City? She does think
once they get the cover to the stage that maybe some
thought should be given to our history. She meant Indian,
Minorcan and the New Englanders and down to whatever,
that's who all this started by. But she thinks something
in song and dance, working with the college, working with
an art school and it doesn't have to be the most elaborate
of elaborate but something to teach history through music
and dance and song. It might be a wonderful thing for them
to do and she has seen it and it was good.
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
Councilman Vincenzi stated before they go on, these figures
that they have written down. Sometime in the near future
he wanted a breakdown of where exactly all the budgeted
items are coming from. He stated City Manager Hooper
mentioned a variety of sources like grants and impact fees
and what not. He asked to get a breakdown on that.
City Manager Hooper stated he could give it to him again.
It's in the budget. That's when they approved these exact
dollars but they can break that down for him.
Mayor Thomas asked if the money was allocated already.
City Manager Hooper informed him yes. What they are seeing
are construction projects that were approved through the
budget process and for the most part, he would say they
were fifty-fifty matches. The only way it would be
different of a match is if it came from FEMA, some
reimbursement like the shuffleboard courts or from the
insurance. Insurance paid them because of their policy
over that. The rest of them are probably ECHO matches.
Mr. Corder was going to address some of the concerns.
Councilman Vincenzi stated verbally was fine but he also
wanted it printed. He asked that it be supplied some time
this week. He didn't only want the recreational items he
wanted everything.
Mayor Thomas stated according to the figures, the Kennedy
Park expansion, $145,000. He asked if that was the whole
design of the boat ramps and everything? City Manager
Hooper informed him no. They will see the fishing pier
after that. It's just a portion that they have in their
budget this year. What they showed them before was the
planning stage and they don't have those kind of dollars
yet. Mayor Thomas stated that was going to cost a lot of
money. City Manager Hooper informed him that was coming
back through them.
Councilwoman Rogers felt they were going to have to come up
with a plan for City Hall. She sees that they have the
renovation of the existing City Hall but just thinking
about the City as a whole and historical art, etc. what
would it take for them to make Park Avenue on the east side
of U.S. #1 be a CRA. In the future if they do get a City
Hall built somewhere else it would be good to have a CRA on
this side of U.S. #1 so that they would be able to create a
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
historic district and do various things. What would it
take for them to do that?
City Manager Hooper informed her it takes a direction.
They have to tell him that's what they want to do. They
talked of doing some of that before and having the City
Hall as a cornerstone of a CRA. That lead to condemnation
of some properties. Because they have an area in there in
which some people said yes, they really like that and a
handful voted no, that's their homestead and they would
never want to do that. They wanted to sell it to their
kids. At that time Council said that they didn't want to
take anybody's property. Unless they either got the
ability to take the property, which they do as a CRA.
Councilwoman Rogers asked if they could approach the people
and talk with them about selling the properties to them?
City Manager Hooper informed her they did that.
Councilwoman Rogers asked if they could try to do that
again. City Manager Hooper informed her they could try
again.
Councilwoman Rogers stated SR 442 and U.S.#l, when you are
going east on SR 442, where it goes to Riverside Drive, you
have Wachovia Bank there. Just south of Wachovia Bank they
have an oil change place and then they have a used car lot
and then they have a vacant piece of land. What would it
take for the City to approach the owners of wachovia Bank
and those other two small businesses, perhaps to look at
buying that for the new proposed City Hall site?
Councilwoman Rogers then commented on the dredging that's
been done or is still going on. In the intracoastal they
have a lot of dredging sitting there that she mentioned way
back when that when they sell that, they have not allocated
where those funds are going to go. She had a conversation
with City Manager Hooper and asked him what would be an
approximate value of that? It was quite a wonderful number
and she would think that that would give them a real good
head start on possibly trying to acquire that land where
Wachovia is and perhaps maybe that could be where the new
City Hall would be. They have to think about that. What
do they need to do? Tell City Manager Hooper that and then
he goes forward?
City Manager Hooper stated the City Hall sitings been. He
was bruised. He doesn't know that the rest of Council
that's been there a while are bruised of a location. They
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
have tried several different sites and for a variety of
reasons, some financial, some they just were not in the
best location. None have worked out so that they have come
up with a particular place. That is a site that was not
looked at. They were looking mostly for vacant sites.
Regions Bank came along because it was proposed to be
vacant. They were moving so that became an option. But
the rest of them they were looking for vacant areas so that
they wouldn't try to buy an existing money making business
and take it off the tax roles. They could do some
research. They could talk to Wachovia. That's a very
expensive interchange, SR 442 and U.S. #1.
Councilwoman Rogers said it would be easy access if they
did have a City Hall there to get in and out. One of the
problems that people were bringing up is the location of
where Regions Bank is that that wasn't a good area of
accessibility. She would think there it is. Plus they
have the City Hall workers when they take their lunch
breaks, they are right down the road from that nice
Veterans Park. It wouldn't be too far away from Park
Avenue. If they did create a CRA in this area, then both
areas would help beautify the City and u.S. #1 and help
clean it up. It's a thought.
Councilwoman Rhodes said and it's a good thought except
that it's way too expensive. Why would they take their
prime property and build City Hall on it? Build City Hall
on cheap property and give prime property to be commercial
business so that they get money from it. That's the only
objection she had to it. Other than that she thought it
was a great idea.
Councilwoman Rogers asked what would be the proposed amount
that City Manager Hooper thought Wachovia would want to
sell that piece for. They don't know unless they try. She
didn't think any land in the City was going for cheap too
much any more. With the large track going for $92 million,
$97 million out west of 1-95. They've got to do something
and it's just like anything else. If they look at it at a
small scale they've got to have a vision. Where do they
want the City to go? Do they want skyscraper condos? Do
they want to keep sitting here letting all the developers
come and buy all the vacant land or doctors buy the vacant
land and then they don't have a City Hall and they are
stuck. They are not going to keep trading land.
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
Councilman Vincenzi stated they are going to be talking
about City Hall soon and what to do and how to save money
for it and all that so would it hurt to even ask about it,
inquire about it? Councilwoman Rogers said that it's just
a thought.
City Manager Hooper said that the easiest thing is just go
on the property appraisers website and start. He could get
a value fast but just off the cuff on other things they
have been looking at. He thinks they are talking of that
stretch, Wachovia, the next one and the next one. They are
probably talking $15 to $20 million. That's some high
price, the prime interchange in the whole City.
Councilwoman Lichter stated that she had a vision that City
Hall should be on the property they own right here.
Mayor Thomas informed Councilwoman Lichter they were going
to talk about that in just a minute.
City Manager Hooper informed Council they had in front of
them a before and after an existing sketch of this facility
and then an option of what could be done. All of them at
one time or another have talked to him about what they
could do for a new City Hall. One of the first steps was
let's re-evaluate. They thought here they could not do
much because of lack of parking and they had some other
issues that they were dealing with. They have gone back
and looked and if they were to take the Police Station,
which is eventually going to go with the new public safety
and be relocated. They have some additional acreage. He
suggested maybe move some of the development activity out
in a few years. They were looking at a five to seven year
patch up. What they could do with this facility without
spending great money over a period of time and still at the
end of the day, they had a facility here that could last as
a community center, a senior center or something that they
could use. What Mr. Corder has done is drawn a set of
plans that is mostly a shell and it has internal to it
cubicles that could be put up, moved around and then taken
back down. So they have the hardening of the outside.
They have some improvements to the restroom structures as
well as improvements to the roof so they don't have the
leaks and all of those kinds of things. Just a square
foot, a unit cost says this is about a $1.5 million.
Nobody's sitting there telling them do it all at once.
That they phase, they go through, look at a part of it and
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
at the end of that time period they have a structure that
could last another five or ten years that they have
probably outgrown as a City Hall but might have been
official use as a senior center or something even
associated with the park across the river. The long-term
answer is this is a five to seven year plan. They are
going to get this big developer out west who is going to
really want to talk to them about a Town Center that if
that is where they are interested in being then in the
fifteen-year time frame, they are at a Town Center that
looks an awful lot like what Port Orange has. At the
beginning it was way out in the boonies and everybody
thought they were nuts because they were building there.
But the rest of the area because it's next to the
interchange built up. The Town Center is being proposed
and the concept by the individual that's doing the design
is that the City Hall becomes part of the cornerstone for a
larger Town Center area that has shopping and restaurants
and commercial attractions. He was not there to tell them
today that was the plan but it's like step one of a
thought. See if they are interested in it. If they want
to get some more serious, they talk of this. They look at
some plans. They really get a cost estimate and then they
get serious about what they would budget per year, if it's
a quarter million, if it's a half a million dollars and how
they phase this in. They don't have staff to do the
construction so it's a contract. They would contract with
somebody to do a piece of it this year and a piece of it
next year. It's pricey work. It's a pain because they are
going to move people while they fix it and then move them
back.
Mr. Corder stated what he did was took the existing
facility and went in and reviewed it and looked at the old
plans. He pointed out the existing, load bearing walls,
which couldn't be moved out. With that he did a design,
putting them in and using those and worked around them and
kind of came up with a plan that would hopefully get them
through another five to seven years. with this plan
though, they have to do a lot of upgrading. The building
was built in 1959. They still have some original wiring in
there and original duct work for the HVAC system so
everything there needs to be upgraded. He mentioned all
the red stuff was either new walls or cubicles. The
bathroom facilities would be all be brand new, handicap
accessible. He then showed them a roof over coming out of
the building into this building with an additional
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
conference room. It's got a lot of work that would have to
be done. There are not a lot of details to this. This was
just conceptual. It's looking for direction on where they
would like them to go.
City Manager Hooper asked Mr. Corder if he described the
beginning where they come in and how they have the little
area with the double set of walls so that when they come in
the restrooms could be opened but sealed and locked if it's
non business hours?
Mr. Corder stated in the community center, as it is now
this is the seating area. They would add a room here but
they would put a wall across the front, make that kind of
an entrance lobby. Redo both of these restrooms here
because they are so old and nasty. Then come inside with a
conference meeting room and then upgrade this facility with
possible permanent seating and definitely a better PA
system. They would have to do some serious work on some
drainage issues there. They would have to add a mechanical
room for the HVAC system and new electrical service. The
biggest thing he worked on was straight walks, no maze
going through as it is now. That was one of the things
they looked at. The new restroom facilities would be
located in the back. The front entrance coming in, the
lobby, lower area was changed and that they would also add
a walk up window on the outside where they would pay their
bills and so forth. Seating wise, he thought they were in
good shape with everybody. There might be a little bit
more room if they needed to add by knocking these cubicles
down and making them smaller but all in all it's just a
pretty compact plan and there is not a lot of space that's
wasted in the facility.
City Manager Hooper said it has a fairly small amount of
expansion area but he didn't see them expanding from a
staff level inside City Hall much that as they grow they
are trying to grow and they were going to talk abut some of
the Finance Department things, they are able to use the
computer and so forth. People instead of having to come
in, they weren't going to see much of that. They are a big
proponent of contracting out so as much as they can as they
expand contract some of those services so there are not
additional staff. Where they are going to find future
staff is mostly in the police, the fire, the parks, Public
Works and the areas that are outside servicing the people.
They will find very little in here so this easily could
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
last that five to seven year window without much strain.
If they had to expand the area that they would probably
pick out first, just take the development and planning
review and move that to a leased facility somewhere else
and then they could have that additional space. That could
occur. If they had many more building permits, they could
add another clerk or two inspectors. Again they do quite a
bit of that by contract, that they have a base number and
as our inspections go up and in the past they have
contracted for that service with private building areas.
Then again they would find it would work so if they have
interest in that they spend more time, they get a better
cost estimate from the hip. It's about $1.5 million and
that's just a cost per square foot times the square foot
that they've got to deal with. It works. It's a
reasonable answer and it will last for quite a while.
Councilwoman Lichter questioned seven years being quite a
while? City Manager Hooper stated in a frame for him it's
quite a while.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated for those that don't know this
land was donated to the City and it must be used for public
use. They don't have an option of selling this off for a
load of money and then build City Hall somewhere else,
which is what her original thought would be. Upgrades to
this building make sense in that they are always going to
have to keep this as a public building. Either they build
a new one or they upgrade this one so that it can
accommodate. She doesn't want to see them put any money
into something for seven years and then they have lost the
money. She wanted this building to be able to withstand
and be something else, even if it needs to be improved at
that time for whatever reason.
City Manager Hooper said that's their plan is to harden the
outside. This is a tough building. It went through the
hurricanes. We had a little water damage. It wasn't as
bad as what he would have expected so it survived pretty
good. What Councilwoman Rogers was talking about earlier,
just so everybody's on the same page. In the containment
sites, ninety acres in area, 15 feet deep, that is sand
that came from the bottom of the river and it's beach
quality sand. That stuff is selling for $10 or $11 a yard
to move over to the beach. There sits well over $4 or $4.5
million even at the price of just sand. If he had his
intent that's just sand that went back into ParkTowne,
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
either as fill or as dirt or as dollars that they use to do
that. Another option is for them to use some of those
proceeds in the General Fund to either buy property to
build a City Hall or renovate a City Hall. That's where
they were coming from and that was that discussion he had
heard described twice. They have some options there and
the dollars are not out of the range. Those are real
dollars they have invested. FIND has turned over the fill
materials. It's ours. It's got to sit for a three or four
month period, get all the liquid compressed out and then
after that they could sell it to the County and put it on
the beach.
Councilwoman Rogers said and then City Manager Hooper also
made mention that this could be later on a senior center or
a senior hall, like the Brannon Center. She liked that
idea with the future of the City and with the growth and
with the seniors moving in so that everybody doesn't have
to go to the Brannon Center.
City Manager Hooper stated and more of a public facility
that whatever they do with it, it's got to stay public so
it's on public property. It could be used for a variety of
things. It's sitting here today. Seven years from now
they might say that was a better use than a senior center.
Councilwoman Lichter stated they are talking about visions
and her vision is to have City Hall here. Her first vision
is not to have them a refurnished or fixed up old City Hall
here. She believes that between next door, here, across
the street and some of the properties that might want to
sell behind them, they could build a City Hall here that
would fit the name of Edgewater and that's her vision.
It's historical. It could be traditional southern with a
porch and some rocking chairs. It could have some height
to it and what would they do with the workers in between.
She thinks there are several options. Perhaps one would be
to talk to those doctors. Because they said they just
bought a bank and they are not going to use all of it or
whatever, maybe temporarily they could be in there or
elsewhere. $1.5 million spent fixing this and it's still
not something to be proud of. It's usable but it's not
part of her vision for this City. There are certain cities
that have their City Hall on a river or the ocean such as
Ormond Beach and Jacksonville. She just thinks there is
enough. There are only a few that refused and got very
vehement about not selling. The rest were renters or the
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
church property or buildings behind them so she thinks a
couple of things ought to be looked at before they do the
renovation of cubicles. She really thinks what
Councilwoman Rogers suggested could be looked into. She
wasn't proud of the building that they turned down. She
didn't think it was a beautiful City Hall. To her function
and beauty can go together. City Hall reflects the
personality of a community. She really thinks that could
be looked into but also maybe renegotiating and seeing
what's available behind them, how far they have to go,
could they go up three. She would like to do that before
she votes on putting $1.5 million into this place.
Councilwoman Lichter stated the YMCA, which never
materialized, has a senior center room. She made sure of
that way back when they came on board but they did not use
it in quite that manner. It became youth and meals and
other things, more than a senior center. But there is room
over there.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated the only thing that concerns her
is with Edgewater growing and all of Riverside being
residential, the access to it. She felt Councilwoman
Rogers had a good point. She has talked about access
before. That is a high priority for a lot of people. She
happened to be one of them. If it causes her too much
trouble to go somewhere she was not going there and would
find somewhere else. She knows a lot of senior citizens
felt that way. Unless they get them easy accessibility
here, which means they have to have from here to U.S. #1,
she doesn't think it's a good option. No matter what they
do, if they build a new City Hall here or they build it
somewhere else, this building has to be updated. It's
going to have to happen no matter what they do.
Councilwoman Lichter stated they should tear it down.
Councilwoman Rhodes questioned Councilwoman Lichter wanting
to tear it down. Councilwoman Lichter thought they needed
the space and across the street with something cute and
parking over there and shops behind. Many years ago they
had the opportunity of buying all that property and they
let it go. They could have had "the center" that they
don't have, a beautiful, historic center. There are a lot
of options. Why don't they check into the other bank? Why
don't they see if perhaps they are interested in renting
space and if any people are interested in selling their
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
property behind them. That's her vision and visions don't
always happen.
Councilwoman Rhodes thinks they should find that out before
they spend $1.5 million on this. Let's send them another
letter and see if they are willing to sell now. If that's
not a possibility then this building has to be upgraded
regardless of what they do.
Councilman Vincenzi asked if they were thinking of doing
these renovations, what's the time frame? City Manager
Hooper stated probably in 2007 they would see a portion of
it and then the following year another portion.
Councilman Vincenzi stated so they wouldn't be starting any
renovations, even if everybody said great go ahead and do
it until 2007. City Manager Hooper informed him they
didn't have money to start until then.
Councilman Vincenzi stated so between now and then they
could look into these other options? City Manager Hooper
stated at some point they have to tell him where they want
him to go because there is a lead time of that budget.
Councilman vincenzi stated Councilwoman Rogers had an idea.
There is a property out there on the corner of the Snowden
piece that has been talked about forever so they could
start throwing options out and maybe they could have
another meeting in a month.
Councilwoman Rhodes felt the first thing to do was find out
if the people that live here want to sell or would consider
it because when they came before them before they
absolutely did not and she was going to be the first one to
say she would not put someone out of their house.
Councilman Vincenzi felt they would be very angry being
approached again. He doesn't think they are going to
change their minds.
Councilwoman Rhodes suggested they just write them a letter
and ask them again. Councilman Vincenzi felt they should
gently ask them. Councilwoman Rhodes questioned why they
would object to that. It's not like they are saying they
are going to take their land. They are asking if they had
thought about it and if things had changed that they might
be willing to.
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
Councilwoman Rogers suggested perhaps a more personable
approach, rather than just a letter to them.
City Manager Hooper stated the problem is they can't find
some of them. They don't live locally. There are some
that do, some own property, live elsewhere. So they have a
mixture. Some they know. They go talk to and his crystal
ball said they would get 80% that would say they would love
to sell if the price was right. The other 20% would go no,
which is exactly where they were before. Even if it's not
the same, it's a checkerboard. They need all of it or they
can't do the drainage, they can't do the roads, and they
can't do the paving. A big part of it is if they fix this
place, fix it today with this stuff, they can do this
without major outside improvements, meaning drainage. If
they say they were going to build a new one and they do a
CRA and they take this place and they buy it all, they are
going to eat up every bit of property they gain as a pond.
They are going to have them comply with new modern drainage
standards. There is another side of that. It sounds good,
it looks goodi you think you are going somewhere. But it
takes a tremendous amount of drainage to meet the new rules
that right now as long as they don't expand the footprint
of the building or do something different, they are
grandfathered or exempt in. The voters have been clear
twice to him. He gets that impression that they are not
willing to spend real money on a new City Hall. That there
are other priorities that they would rather do.
Councilwoman Lichter stated that would have to go to them
anyway. City Manager Hooper stated at some dollar level it
does and that's where they are going to run into the next
issue. That dollar level increases every year. It's
probably up to $5 million to $6 million now that they don't
need to go back. But they still face the political issue
that it's been asked twice and told no twice and they say
okay, they don't need to because it's under the dollar
threshold and they are all going to get beat up.
Councilwoman Lichter asked for a million and a half does it
go the voters? City Manager Hooper stated no. It's
dollars appropriated. The dollars that go to the voters,
remember only for borrowing. If they take it out of their
annual budget and they set aside money, that's their
business to decide that.
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
Mayor Thomas asked what the possibility was of staying
here, knocking everything down and going up with a new
facility?
City Manager Hooper didn't think this building could do
that. If they kick that around, they could spend some
money on architectural. But this thing is very old.
Mayor Thomas stated he was talking about knocking this
building down and building a new one.
Councilwoman Rogers stated that if they knocked it down
they wouldn't have that grandfathering and then they are
dealing with all the retention and the new requirements for
construction.
Mayor Thomas asked if that was a possibility? City Manager
Hooper stated no, not unless they buy a lot more land.
They would have to buy thirty percent equal to this
acreage.
Mayor Thomas stated that the bottom line is they have to do
something for the City employees. This place is atrocious.
They need to come up with a common plan and do something
for the City employees, bottom line.
City Manager Hooper stated so he had gotten some direction.
He was going to muddle through, put it all together and
bring it back.
Mayor Thomas confirmed that City Manager Hooper was going
to come up with some options. City Manager Hooper stated
he would price, bring it back. He would list some choices
and give them some recommendations and they go from there.
Mayor Thomas stated if they make these changes here and can
get through five to seven more years they work ability for
the City employees. What City Manager Hooper was looking
at was the future that's out by 1-95 right? City manager
Hooper informed him that was correct. Mayor Thomas stated
to try to appropriate some land from the developer and then
do it there, which would probably be the best option he
would say.
City Manager Hooper stated they would be successful at
that. They are going to want to come in. Part of their
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
DRI process lS just that. They are going to be talking of
swaps.
Councilwoman Rhodes felt if they were going to keep this
building as City Hall, then they shouldn't be spending all
the money they were going to spend on that park over there.
The whole idea, the whole renovation of that over there is
for fishermen, boating, that kind of thing. Why would they
do that if they were going to cut off all their parking and
all their access?
City Manager Hooper stated they are not. They are having
competing time frames. That park across the street is used
intensely on the weekends and this place is open so
whatever they create here for space parking, Saturday and
Sunday this place is just full of boat trailers. But
they've got an interested share there the space that they
create. He didn't see them as an incompatible. He saw
them as kind of helping each other.
Councilwoman Rogers commented on Menard May Park being
donated to the City. Did the owners at the time approach
the City or did the City approach them to donate that
property? Mr. Corder agreed to research it due to that
being before he was here.
Councilwoman Rogers was thinking about the people that have
neighboring pieces of property adjacent to this. When they
go to sell it, who is going to want to live in a house
right next to City Hall? Right next to all these different
businesses and City businesses and whatnot. Is it
something perhaps if they were to just go ahead and send
out letters. She was saying keep this one and a half.
Let's look at this but at the same time let's look at the
possibility of sending letters to these property owners
that are adjacent to the City Hall and make mention of some
of the benefits if they were to later donate it to the City
for a future expansion. If these people are not residents
here then those properties are probably rentals and they
are getting the tax benefit of those rental properties.
They could get a great tax benefit too by contributing the
land to the City.
City Manager Hooper stated he liked the idea but they
haven't yet seen anybody give the City any property,
especially Riverside Drive property.
Page 35 of 35
Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
Councilwoman Rogers commented on knowing someone that was
going to give their estate to the City when they pass and
they are not looking for that future benefit obviously
because they will be gone. If people are made aware of
things, sometimes they will do it.
City Manager Hooper then talked about Public Safety. They
have started the process of the design of the public
safety, the shared facility between Police and Fire located
on the Hospital site. The footprint of the design could
also fit at the interchange of 1-95 and SR 442. There is
some discussion of an either/or but the design is under
way. The Mayor has talked of EOC but also a place to house
emergency workers, employees and a grant opportunity is
there but it's there only if it is an EOC. If it's an EOC
it makes more sense to have the Police and Fire there. So
that area is being probed. When he talks of it, it's the
same box, the same design, just a different place to put
it. He expected the design to be done in July or August.
City Manager Hooper then commented on the construction of
an Animal Shelter. They have bid the financing, which is a
half a million dollars and that opens on February loth of
having bank's proposal so it's a public bid. Any local
bank can make an offer and they open those. What they are
really bidding is a half a million dollars and then they
fill in the interest rate. They have three continuing
contractors under contract, three continuing construction
companies. They are going to take the set of plans that is
being completed, the contractor and tell him he's got a
half a million dollar budget and those two right now are
working together to develop the best plan for the most cost
effective and produce about a 5,000 square foot structure
that can be added on to at a later date. That will be on
Council's agenda in March or April. March will be the
award for the half a million dollars with a particular bank
and then they will see a construction contract which will
be either design build or construction management, a risk
company to build that structure with that opening probably
before the end of the calendar year. Efforts to try to get
them under construction in April and it's a six to eight
month time frame for construction.
City Manager Hooper informed Council they needed to update
some of the Codes that they have. He spoke about cost
recovery. That is a deal in which if there is an accident
that occurs in the City and if it's a non-resident and if
Page 36 of 36
Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
somebody is charged then the City would be going after that
person's insurance company on an hourly rate to reimburse
the cost of the Police or the Fire. It's new. It's
cutting edge. It's done in Winter Park and maybe a handful
of other places in Florida. They have a bunch of cities
watching that if they have the courage to do that, that
they will be looking into it. Some of the attack on Winter
Park. It makes them look like they are ambulance chasing,
they are mercenary. His deal was the citizens have paid
their tax so they are covered because they are exempt from
the resident. It only happens to them if they are at fault
and they are an out of City person. So that's coming to
Council as a draft ordinance he thought on the next agenda.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked what the purpose of this was.
City Manager Hooper informed her money.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated but then her insurance rates are
going to go up because the insurance companies are going to
raise her rates in anticipation of that. So she was going
to pay for it one way or the other. So why then have a
middleman? City Manager Hooper informed her they were not
having a middleman. They are getting the citizens cost.
Councilwoman Rogers understood what they were getting but
her point was then every citizen in the City's insurance
rates are going to go up because eventually all the cities
will do it. So no matter where they are, they are going to
either be a resident or they are not and their insurance
rates are going to be raised in anticipation of the fact
that they might have an accident in a place where they are
not a resident.
City Manager Hooper stated that he was hoping insurance
rates go up a little bit and if they have the recovery then
the City gets more dollars.
Councilwoman Rhodes informed him he could hope that all he
wanted but when have they ever gone up a little bit.
Councilwoman Lichter stated they go up anyway even if they
don't do this.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated that was her problem with that
plan. She loves the plan and she thinks it's brilliant.
That's really thinking outside the box in her opinion. She
doesn't see it's going to save money in the long term.
Page 37 of 37
Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
Mayor Thomas stated if New Smyrna does and they don't then
it's going to go up anyway.
Councilman Vincenzi asked City Manager Hooper if he had any
figures or any statistics like how much money it would
bring in and other towns in Florida that already do it.
City Manager Hooper stated they had an estimate of the
number of hours that they respond. They had some
information from Winter Park on what they receive. Some
places are not just at fault. It's any time they show up.
When they have their public hearing that's part of what
they are going to show Council and go through that detail.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked what would it cost the City of
Edgewater to respond to those out of State residents,
divided by the number of residents and the taxpayers in the
City. She wanted to know if it is going to cost her five
dollars a year or if it's going to cost her ten dollars a
year so she can compare it to what she thinks her insurance
company's going to raise her rates at.
City Manager Hooper agreed to try and answer that. The
cost, an hourly rate to respond he had, how many citizens
he had so he could tell her that but he didn't know what
her insurance company was going to do.
City Manager Hooper then went over the fire and hazard
prevention codes. Some of those updates will be part of
the Land Development Code. Animal Control, they are going
to have a facility, a shelter. His anticipation is they
are going to have an interlocal agreement with the Pet
Society over their role of managing, running, assisting,
and volunteering so that agreement would be put in place
this year. They are also going to have the set of rules
and regulations concerning adoptions, how much it costs,
how that facility's actually run. Those are things that
are coming to Council in the next 60 to 90 days through
that process.
City Manager Hooper briefly commented on Public Safety and
the EOC grant opportunity. They made step one of what will
be a mini phase step about that EOC. He envisions that
occurring but that's probably a year or two years out
before anything is there no matter what they do for grant.
Page 38 of 38
Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
City Manager Hooper then talked about Administrative,
upgrading customer service. There are several things that
have occurred in the Finance Department. They can pay
their bills on the phone, online, credit cards. Those
continue to grow. The ability to do .gov and interact with
the City through electronic media and those will continue
to have enhancements. In the budget they have a new phone
system. They are just one step here above the crank deal
that they would have to turn to talk with an operator and
get Susan to plug them in. About $50,000 and they got
quotes from two vendors and that will be on Council's
agenda coming up very soon.
City Manager Hooper then commented on the Pension Plans.
They are really out of control. They have heard him say it
and they heard him whining about it. Some of the Council
sit on the boards for it and they have hired a company
called Bogdahn and Associates. Bogdahn is now working with
Principal. They have met with all of our pension boards,
getting the facts. Their next step is to come in and tell
them, smart fiscal advice over what to do. Do they open
the plans? Do they close the plans? Do they buy them out?
How do they get out of this mess? For years they have had
a closed plan. It's 42% of anybody's salary in the closed
plan and the rest of them Police, Fire and so forth, are
escalating and going up.
City Manager Hooper stated they started the year talking
about going into bi-weekly pay. They negotiated some of
the union contracts that let them do that. They had the
non-union employees talk. It is difficult to try to make
that conversion. He backed off of that and now they have a
pay system that pays them through Saturday. They turn in
their time card on Monday of whatever they worked for
Saturday and if they are signed up for direct deposit with
electronics with the bank, they get their money on
Thursday. If they get a paper check, they get their money
on Friday. They turn in their time cards on Monday by
Thursday or Friday depending on which method they use
that's working. It's working well. They went through that
transition last month. Nobody beat him up. He didn't
think Council got a lot of calls on it. He thinks they did
early when there was some misunderstanding but it's been
through. Debby, Jon and Donna have done a very good job
coordinating. They had some with the union but they are
through that. The next step. They process that manually
now. The paperwork comes in and it is all typed in by
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
computer on Monday. They would like to go out this year
and get price quotes of what it costs to hire a company
that they turn in electronically, those hours. They come
back with either deposit slips where they made them into
the bank or they print out checks. They are going to be
asking Council to authorize them to do an RFP just to see
what it costs. He thinks it's a $50,000 a year deal. If
that's way off then they won't want to do it. If it's that
price that will keep them from having to expand either the
Payroll or Finance Department any time soon.
Mayor Thomas asked Ms. Sigler how the new program was
working. When he talked to her he was amazed. They were
turning in their timesheets that morning and she was
printing out checks that afternoon. He couldn't believe
it. He has never worked for any place like that. He asked
Personnel Director Debby Sigler if it was working better
for her.
Personnel Director Sigler stated this was the first week
that they were at Sunday through Saturday. They staggered
into it and now they are at the full week each week and
Jon's Department's share of it and their share of it went
very smoothly.
Mayor Thomas stated it's got to be better than what they
were going through before. That was amazing to him.
City Manager Hooper stated what they did was just extend
that five day pay period to a seven day, eight day, nine
day and it just grew so after the month of January which
had some holidays in it anyway, they were able to get to
that point so now they are on the same kind of cycle. They
just get their check after a reasonable day for these folks
to process it.
City Manager Hooper then commented on the role of City
Attorney. They had a lot of discussion of that. He thinks
going into next year's budget or sooner if they wish, they
are going to have to tell him if that's what they want to
do. He and Paralegal Robin Matusick looked back and looked
at some old invoices from when Nikki Clayton was here as
City Attorney. They decided to no longer have in essence a
permanent part time employee and they went to Foley and
Lardner. That saved about $80,000 a year in cost. They
looked at 2005 and what they paid Foley and Lardner was
$66,000 in which the development community because of
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
reimbursements of their plats, their legal contracts that
Foley and Lardner reviews, they were reimbursed $42,000 so
in 2005 they were paying $24,000 a year to have the
Attorney on call as needed. If they are interested in
having him there full time that number is going to go up.
It would probably go close to $150,000 to $200,000 a year.
They could do that. They could have it as they do now with
more input. In other words, designate certain meetings
that they wanted him here for. As it works currently
Paralegal Matusick does the legal work for the City as far
as the ordinances and resolutions, they talk. It is sent
to him, he reviews it and then he is there as they need
him. If they wanted to talk about it now, they could. If
they wanted to think about it some, if they wanted to get
into the budget process but that's a ticket and it's going
to cost them somewhere around $120,000 to $200,000 more
then it's costing them today.
Councilman vincenzi wanted to see more participation.
didn't think it was going to cost that much and asked
Manager Hooper if he was talking full time.
He
City
City Manager Hooper informed him he was talking every
Council meeting. Paul is not going to just show up and sit
there and give them advice. He is going to want to digest
a tremendous amount. The one case they are working on now
on the condominiums, he has asked just what the Mayor asked
for. Every transcript, everything that's written or said
he is going to digest that at $225 per hour. He was not
saying they shouldn't. If he was going to sit there and
give them a legal opinion then he has got to be a lot more
involved and that includes some of his time. He travels
over here. He thinks there is a reduction in time and that
he was not going to charge them the full amount but they
can get a quote from him to attend every meeting and tell
them his estimate of what that would be.
Councilwoman Rogers asked how often he updates his contract
with the City. City Manager Hooper stated that he does an
annual update. What they have done in the past is they
have professionals under contract. They advertise about
every three to four years for their engineers, their
surveyors and their auditors. They did that last year for
all of those. They advertised for engineers, surveyors and
auditors. The Attorney was hired in 2001 and since then
there has been two or three rate adjustments and he usually
does a CPI number so he's been there that long and either a
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Council Workshop
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slight annual or every other year annual. Part of what's
changed is they had Scott Cookson who is an attorney with
Foley and Lardner but a junior attorney to Paul, when Scott
left Paul has taken over and runs most of it and Paul's
rates are just more expensive then they had with Scott
Cookson.
Councilwoman Rogers stated so Paul is now at $225. She was
recalling that the timing of when they signed him on was
February of 2000 and she believed the rate was $210 an
hour. So at $225, six years later, that's not bad at all.
Councilwoman Lichter wanted to talk about not having, yet
using more. She doesn't think they need a City Attorney to
sit in City Hall. There are many matters taking up an
office space, getting paid as a full time employee. She
thinks there are certain issues that come up in a year that
they might want the Attorney to come. That decision can be
made certainly during terms of writing codes. He gave them
some good ideas, that kind of things, changing Land
Development. She doesn't think they need him there all the
time. She liked very much his offer of hearing from them
at any time but she thinks there should be some rules and
regulations with that. In other words, they did use to do
that a little more but they put it through Robin so she
knew what kind of issue it was. If she couldn't get an
answer then they would call and she liked his ideas saying
the pros and cons so she sees a little more use of him in
times of change. Sometimes things are going just like that
and they don't need him. They do have an attorney present
at every Code Enforcement meeting and sometimes they act in
that type of capacity of more legal. She thinks at that
time it wouldn't hurt to have him or someone else they may
decide to hire. It may be a junior that may serve the
purpose very well also and save a little money that way.
Councilwoman Rogers stated but the problem is look what
just happened with the condos and that vote. If an
attorney would have been sitting there during that meeting,
he would have advised them that there was a motion to
approve it and it was denied and that they needed to do a
motion to not approve it. Now they have to revisit that
again.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated she didn't think he necessarily
would have done that because that was brought up by their
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February 6, 2006
attorney and she didn't think our attorney would have said
anything.
Councilwoman Rogers felt if he
then why would they want him.
just as sharp as Mr. Storch.
couldn't have caught that
They want an attorney that's
City Manager Hooper stated they have that. They have a
very good Attorney. Part of it when Mr. Rosenthal talked
in the orientation for the two new, if they are after input
on how to do something, how to make a motion to deny it.
He has described and he encouraged that for them or for him
to talk to City Manager Hooper. They have got to say what
they want to do so they can get some input in some of that.
If he is caught off guard of not knowing what Council wants
him to do, he can't sit in one of those seats and be
thinking of everything, no matter who they are. Some of
that is input that's there. He endorsed the fact that if
they want him there full time, they should do that. If
they are thinking ahead and that's part of why they have
two readings, they can do anything at the first reading and
nothing is permanent. Say at the first reading he was
wanted there for the second reading and they could have him
give them time to interact with something. Their first
reading nothing counts. All they really do at the first
reading is move to a second reading. At the first reading,
it's in front of them. They can say this is going to be
sticky and they have got issues and by the time it gets to
the final, they want some advice. They get to the second
reading and they are still not sure, they are not sure that
they have got either him giving them answers, Robin giving
them answers. All they have got to do is continue it and
postpone it so Council controls that. That's in their
hands to do and they can do that in any format that they
want to do. As they move closer to budget they have got to
tell him. He was going to be here for their next meeting,
not this coming Monday but the meeting in which there will
be a rehear of that particular issue. Monday they were
going to be asked do they want to rehear it so that they
can go through the first reading again, giving them the
option to deny it, approve it, continue it, several options
that they have. He will be here for that but this Monday
night is just to schedule it. All it is Council is telling
staff to advertise it.
Councilwoman Rogers stated they don't need a full time
Attorney here but just one to be present at the meetings
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
and then she would think if it's on average a two or three
hour meeting that he would take perhaps that much time at
least to prepare and do any research and then he is having
to have some fortitude to what he thinks their questions
are going to be. She doesn't think it would cost $150,000
to $200,000. There are some months that they only have one
meeting so perhaps he needs to give them a proposal.
City Manager Hooper asked if Council wanted him to ask him
for a proposal to cover all Council meetings.
Councilman Vincenzi stated have it a range of options. Ask
him for a proposal for all. Councilwoman Rhodes stated
that is the proposal. They already have the contract with
him. If he sits there it costs them $225 an hour.
Councilman vincenzi suggested City Manager Hooper get a
proposal from him estimating what he would need in addition
to Council meeting hours.
Councilwoman Lichter didn't think they needed him for a
whole meeting. When they start sometimes at seven and go
home at eleven, there are parts of that meeting that
involve very legal things. There are parts that are grants
or other types of reports from people and he is going to
sit there through audience participation. She thinks there
are just certain times they need him.
Councilwoman Rogers stated so designating them. Designate
at certain meetings which ones they want him to come to.
City Manager Hooper informed her that is where they are at
now. Councilwoman Rogers stated but if they deny
something at the first reading, it won't come to them for a
second reading so why not end it right then and there.
City Manager Hooper informed her that was part of the
strategy is they don't deny at first readings. It is that
they get it onto the second. They get their motions, their
thoughts, their input. If they went on a tour and went to
every other city, they would find that the first reading
has no discussion. First reading is just here is the item,
has it been advertised properly and then they go on to the
second reading. In Edgewater they don't do that. They
take each one as a public hearing. They hear a lot of
input up front and for the most part, he thinks that's the
first he recalled since he has been here that they denied
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
something on a first reading so it's usually and customary,
not mandatory.
Councilwoman Lichter stated that they denied that little
skinny thing on u.s. #1 between the trailers and something
else; remember the man was in Australia, they denied that
one.
City Manager Hooper stated he thought that was a Comp Plan
Amendment. That was a different gizmo altogether. He
asked Council if they wanted to think about it and he would
talk to Paul and at their meeting they could tell them some
ranges of costs.
There was a ten-minute recess at this time so City Clerk
Wadsworth could change the tape. The meeting recessed
around 8:45 p.m. and reconvened around 8:55 p.m.
City Manager Hooper then talked about reclaimed rates and
water bills.
City Manager Hooper handed out a letter with all the exacts
on it. It is going out to all of their reclaimed customers
and it's a six-month estimate of if they were billing them
the current rates and the amount of consumption, here is
what their bill would be. For the next six months they are
going to confuse people. They are going to say if they paid
a bill, here's what it would be and right now it's a very
low number. They go into Spring and Summer it goes up so
they tried to go across two different kinds of seasons. He
provided them with an example using Tim Sopko's house,
Dennis Vincenzi's house and David Ross's house.
Councilman Vincenzi stated he didn't mind his information
being in there but asked City Manager Hooper if he asked
any of the other people. City Manager Hooper stated he
didn't ask anybody. It is public. Councilman Vincenzi
stated maybe they don't want everyone knowing what they use
every month. City Manager Hooper stated it is public
record and anybody could ask.
Councilman Vincenzi stated he couldn't get anybody else's
consumption if he asked for it. City Manager Hooper
informed him he could. Councilman Vincenzi stated he could
because he sits on Council. City Manager Hooper informed
him he could if he was a citizen too. Councilman Vincenzi
didn't think that was right.
Page 45 of 45
Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
City Manager Hooper further stated the purpose was just to
show them what would it look like the first month out so if
there is confusion in there and they can see big numbers
and small numbers. Tim's example right now, they charge
$10 so his would go down. Dennis' would go down and David
Ross would go down. He is his biggest supporter on the
reclaimed fees, others would go up. That's the whole
purpose here is to show Council there is a range. This is
one month and this is December, which is a low consumption
month. After six months they get some feed back, they are
going to be back in front of Council saying they guessed
right. The rates were where they should be to try to get
everybody in the 15,000 to 20,000 range or they guessed
wrong they need to go down or they need to go up or
whatever they need to do. That's the process they are
working under now. Everybody gets a share for a reasonable
price of reclaimed but somebody using 50,000 or 60,000
gallons is going to have to pay a penalty, a steep price.
Councilwoman Rhodes pointed out one of the examples was
four lots so the reclaimed water use is based on one
reclaimed water but yet his consumption might be larger.
Even though it's not an excessive use, is there some
safeguard for that?
City Manager Hooper stated what the District does and the
District just passed a new rule that says the twice per
week watering that they have been following since 1991 or
1992 or 2001 is now mandatory. They are going to ask them
as a City and every city to pass an ordinance that says
that's it from here on instead of just under emergency
conditions. They are wanting the City to enforce those
State rules and regulations so that's coming up. They
don't look at it that way here. They looked at they've got
a large tract of land, what they should be doing in their
eyes is having St. Augustine over the same as if it were a
single lot and the rest should be in xeriscape or some non
thirsty type plant material.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated had Dennis' lots been separated
and another house had been next to him, then they would
have been entitled to reclaimed water as well for that lot
so why is it there? She was looking at a lady that has
four lots and she was not over watering but yet she had to
use a lot of water because she has more property. She
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
thinks they need to find some way to take that into
consideration.
City Manager Hooper stated they are going to have to think
through that.
Councilwoman Lichter said and she didn't have to plant it
all, that's what they were trying to tell them.
City Manager Hooper stated that's what they are trying to
do but the point is if those four lots were divided into
every other Shores lot, they would have twice that
entitlement for less money.
City Manager Hooper stated if they get calls, if they get
complaints and they will, particularly they will starting
in March and April's billing cycle because these are going
to go up. Somebody that will get a bill that says if they
had to pay reclaimed it would have been $200. They are
just going to take all this into account over a six-month
period. This effort is really to try to let them become
knowledgeable. They talked about the education that if it
were in effect, here is what they would be paying. Pay
attention to how much you use, that's what it's for.
Councilwoman Rhodes commented on paying a homeowner's fee
in Edgewater Landing. She pays the same amount as a home
that may have three or four people and she is only one
person. She commented on an individual paying $15 for dues
to the Historical Society but a couple can get it for $20.
There are some things that just don't work out right.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated but you try to change them.
Councilwoman Rogers spoke about it being just like property
taxes. The people behind her pay $300. She pays $5,500.
City Manager Hooper then went on to speak about
Environmental Services. This was a list of mostly capital
projects. Two wells. He thought they were permitting
seven or eight and constructing two this year. About
$500,000. They are in the final stages of the consumptive
use permit renewal. They should be getting that in the
next few months. That is a major hurdle. Design,
permitting, construction of their new reclaimed and potable
water system for the 17 acres that they purchased. The
first part will do the design and permitting this year.
Page 47 of 47
Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
They are going to be dealing with construction no sooner
than next year.
Mayor Thomas asked where the two new wells were going.
Environmental Services Director Terry Wadsworth informed
him informed him it was on the 38 acres the City purchased
just north of the immediate Plant site, adjacent to
McAllister's property, west of the FEC railroad tracks.
City Manager Hooper stated and east of 1-95.
City Manager Hooper commented on the completion of the
citywide master stormwater plan. Part of what they got an
audit criticism for and what they are going to get another
one this year for is their Stormwater Fund operates as an
Enterprise Fund. It's broke and getting broker so it's
subsidized right now because of the stormwater improvements
that they have been doing and the canal maintenance by the
General Fund so there will be an audit criticism of what
they should do is increase rates. They were going to see
that back in front of them of an option of increasing
stormwater utility rates or just committing a certain
dollar amount per year that's a subsidy from the General
Fund into that. There is about seven years left on that
debt service payment. They have six dollars right now per
household. Half of that goes to operation and maintenance
and the other half went to pay for the capital improvements
in the Shores when those stormwater improvements were
there. There is relief around the corner but around the
corner is seven years away. So that's part of what they
will be talking about.
City Manager Hooper then commented on a new stormwater
basin that goes from Roberts Road south to Ariel Road.
That U.S. 1 corridor of all of those new projects that are
coming in, there needs to be a basin study, how that water
drains. They had the County in here talking about Shadow
Oaks, those two mosquito control canals that they talked
about, the ability for those to handle water, how much and
how it gets pretreated. That stuff needs to be studied and
that's going to be in front of Council on their next
agenda.
City Manager Hooper stated as they move south, they service
water from Roberts Road in essence south. The County
services sewer. They have been very fortunate to have a
good agreement that instead of duplicating services, they
serve water, the County serves sewer. They had a line
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
drawn on a map and that line has moved further south as
they annexed so this year they will be updating an
interlocal agreement. They will be expanding as partners
with the County's plant for more sewer capacity because our
current plant can't take more and as that area south along
the u.s. #1 corridor grows, they need more capacity and
that will go to the County's plant. The County takes that
water and sends it back to our new reclaimed water
facility.
City Manager Hooper then spoke about the Air Park Road
realignment. If they go out on Air Park, they have got
that little dirt strip. It's been there for three years
and every year he tells them they are closer. They have a
bid out on the street. Every year they talk about it.
They opened the bid he thought March 8th. It's about $2.5
million. They have a grant. They have some County money.
They have some impact fee credits and then they have future
money of Massey donating right-of-way to the County for the
widening of Park, that they get to keep County road impact
fees. That will be on their agenda coming up late March or
early April. That is to take the road, they move it a
little bit further to the west and opens up aviation
related commercial and industrial activity along the
airport.
Councilman Vincenzi asked if it was going to be totally
paid for between the donated right-of-way and all these
other funds. City Manager Hooper informed him yes, between
the donated right-of-way, the impact fees, the grants, a
bank loan. Remember they borrowed money three years ago
thinking this was going to happen soon and then Massey's
making up some payments.
Mayor Thomas wanted to hear some comments from Council.
Councilwoman Lichter had a copy of the Indian River
Boulevard plans. She stated this really is a wonderful
thing to see. She didn't know if Councilwoman Rogers or
the Mayor got that so maybe they should and then there is
some questions that came up to her about where they were
going to have offices that are now homes and what are the
people going to do on the side streets coming out about
parking, etc. Jack and his crowd have become landscape
artists. It's amazing but there is more to be done. She
thinks that he would be very interested. It's a joint
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
project for the County and the City is not paying for all
of it just a part of it.
City Manager Hooper informed her that's a tool that was
used for the gateway corridors and it's been adopted so
they've got the plans, the Land Development Code that
adopted that. Mr. Lear had extra copies so they would get
them that to add to their stack.
Mayor Thomas asked Councilwoman Lichter if there were any
goals she had that they did not cover.
Councilwoman Lichter stated just enforcement of water
conservation. Something about littering. They used to
have an anti-litter committee and then the volunteers got
tired of picking up the junk on the highway and the roads.
She really wanted, if possible, those signs and a couple of
arrests and she really thinks that would do it.
Councilwoman Rogers stated they are known as the
Hospitality City and what they need to think about vision
wise is what do they want the City to represent. Do they
want to have the condos? Do they want to have lots of
people? Do they want to keep the quality that they have
now? They are going to expand upon that with all the new
developments coming down with the fact that developers have
purchased property and they have annexed into this City,
she thinks they need to focus and come up with some ideas.
What is it that they want? They are looking at the land
use code. They are proposing some changes but what is it
that they want. What do they think the citizens of the
City would want? The Council are the ones that are making
the decision. She drove home from church the other day and
she drove through Ormond Beach and she drove through Port
Orange and it's sad. It's real sad when she goes down
Riverside Drive in Port Orange and she sees the river and
she sees the homes being ripped up and she sees the
condominiums and then the people that are still in homes
now are looking up at those condominiums. Those people
aren't happy. What do they want? She thinks they need to
focus on that and think about that as they are making these
decisions.
Councilwoman Rhodes thinks this is a good start. She
thinks they have some things to work out obviously. Jon
has something to work on now. He had nothing to do so she
had to help him out there. She agreed that they need a
Page 50 of 50
Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
vision for the City. Believe it or not, they've had a
vision for a hundred years in this City. Every City
Council that's been there had a vision. Since Council
changes every four to eight years, it used to be every two
years, that vision has changed so it's very difficult to
maintain a focus. She could remember when she first sat on
Council. Councilwoman Lichter had a picture. It was a
drawing of SR 442 and what it was going to look like. That
was their vision. It doesn't look like that. She liked
the picture but she wasn't sure about how it looks now.
But it's getting better all the time. This City has come a
long way if they look at it the last ten years. She thinks
it's so critical that they maintain a focus on the
environment and the water because those are finite
resources and it's up to them to make sure they are here
for their kids and grandkids. She thinks a lot of times
when they talk about land they talk about it like the City
owns the land. They don't own the land. It's just like
them going to a developer or to a landowner or property
owner and saying they liked something three years ago but
now they don't like it any more so they want them to change
it. She thinks they really need to focus. She thinks if
they did the best thing for the environment and the best
thing for the clean water and the best thing for a safe
community, they are going to have the City that they want
to have. That's where her focus will be.
Councilman vincenzi thought the meeting was okay,
productive, informative. Originally he thought it was
going to be a vision-setting type of a meeting. To him it
turned into a regular budgetary, this is what they are
going to do next year and this is how much it should cost
and what they want to prioritize type of meeting, which is
okay. It needs to be done but he feels they really need to
talk about vision. They need to talk about what the City
should look like or what they want it to look like and only
then can they go ahead and change codes around effectively
to get where they want to go. Right now everybody is doing
it piecemeal, development by development that comes in.
Every development has a different idea of what they want to
do or how they want to do it. He thought it was a good
meeting. As far as vision setting it didn't really cut it.
As far as what was talked about today, he doesn't want to
see taxes go up. He doesn't want to see rates to go up.
He would like to see them go down. However there are many
projects that need to be accomplished. He thinks the most
important one would be a new City Hall so that's over and
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
above expansion of services as needed. They haven't talked
about that at all as far as how they are going to get a new
City Hall or acquire it or build it or where it is going to
be. He hoped this would be coming in future meetings soon.
That would be a priority for him. No tax increase,
hopefully a decrease and to figure out how to accomplish
important projects, like City Hall.
Mayor Thomas stated that one of his primary objectives was
to identify and protect their green infrastructure. He was
talking about the ones that are already existing. It
doesn't have to be green. They have the Turnbull Hammock
water shed. They have Spruce Creek Swamp, Bear Bay, the
wetlands, the intracoastal waterway. This would be their
green infrastructure.
Mayor Thomas stated they needed to protect their water
supply. He was glad that they were drilling two new wells
away from the other wells so they have Plan A and Plan B in
case something catastrophic happens to those or those are
sabotaged. They need to protect as much green as possible
so that they preserve their excellent air quality. This
right here they are taking for granted. Their water they
are taking for granted and they need to protect that so
that they can have that in the future.
Mayor Thomas stated they also needed to reroute or curb as
much stormwater runoff as possible that now goes to the
Indian River. They need to preserve the historical and
friendly family values of Edgewater by striving for a
quality of life and not a quantity of life. They need to
create an EEOC out there. They need it before two years so
they can house City employees and feed them and shelter
them in case of a catastrophic disaster so that they can
come back in here and assist the people in law enforcement
by cutting the trees out of the way and letting them get
back in to their homes businesses and securing those. They
need to depend on themselves and not on the Federal
Government or the State or the County. They need to be
self-dependent. They need to build a shared vision of
their future and they need to stick with it.
City Manager Hooper asked Councilman Vincenzi when he talks
about the visioning, he has heard three or four others
describe visioning. He asked Councilman Vincenzi to share
some of his vision with staff so he could see where he
wanted it to go.
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
Councilman Vincenzi stated the basic vision is what kind of
developments do they want in here. He doesn't think condos
have a place in here, high-rise condos he thought although
some of the sites up in Daytona and the Marina Grand. Sure
that looks majestic and all but he thinks it changes the
landscape and changes the appearance of the City. If they
are going to go that route, they might as well go whole hog
and do all up and down the river that way. But that's not
the way Edgewater is so he thinks those type of buildings
don't need to be considered. He thinks as long as
developers come in here and keep buying property, like that
piece that's down there for River Oaks, Edgewater Harbor,
he thinks that's going to degrade the image of the City.
Councilman Vincenzi referenced height restrictions, lot
sizes, protecting the environment, some of the things they
talked about are very important. He didn't see it on paper
yet, mostly restrictions on development. So they want a
vision? He would give them what he thought it should be
but he didn't know if that's what everybody else wants.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on a vision being a dream.
She spoke of things changing and the tax base. The safety
of the citizens is her first dream, their lives are
important and how they respond in emergencies. That's
first and they need money for that. They've got to think
how many ways could the City make money and switch that
base from the taxpayer. That's important.
Councilman Vincenzi stated that's true but that's standard
operating procedure. He hasn't seen anything really about
vision, what the City should be like in 20 years. A
guideline, some kind of picture, some kind of vision so
they can form a path to get there.
City Manager Hooper stated his struggle on that side of the
table was that's not what he does for Council. They tell
him the vision they want as a group. His job is to go get
it, bring it back, put it to Council a piece at a time and
say he was on the right path. He has gotten a lot of input
and he hears it and he understands it. They said this
wasn't what they wanted and he came back and said give me
some hints of what vision is so he could help define what
their vision was and what they want to do of what's going
to stay green and what's going to stay open.
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Council Workshop
February 6, 2006
Mayor Thomas stated what he gets, City Manager Hooper had
five visions up there and he was going to go back and he
was going to do that and then he was going to put something
on paper on standards and then they would look at that.
City Manager Hooper stated he was going to doctor his list
up on their next agenda and show them his interpretation of
their goals and they are going to look at it and say it's
either right or not and here's what they want to add to it
and they will do that at a Council meeting and he was
describing to them that he hears pretty clear was this is
okay and they want to talk of some broader picture and they
define what they are looking at. Dennis' complaint that
this isn't detailed, he wanted to know what he wanted.
Councilman Vincenzi stated that he didn't think that's a
topic to discuss at a Council meeting first of all. They
can come back with a list of things that they want to do
over the next year or two years. They could talk all night
about that and debate back and forth. If they really want
to get into depth about what people think about anybody's
vision up there or City Manager Hooper's vision, they are
going to need more than 15 minutes at a Council meeting.
City Manager Hooper stated that's what this is about. It's
for Council to tell him what they want and at some point
they have to adopt a mission statement, a vision statement
that this is where they want to be.
Councilwoman Lichter stated and the next Council that comes
in may keep it or not keep it. She certainly wouldn't have
had the vision of Florida Shores if she were here then.
Not that there aren't some beautiful homes in there but the
way it's constructed with every street leading into SR 442,
it's probably the worst planning there could be. Many of
the problems, how they had to close the roads up and now
what they look like the certain direction roads putting in
a project without paved roads, without swales in front of
them. All those things wouldn't have been her vision.
Maybe it was appropriate back then.
Mayor Thomas stated
in the whole state.
City Manager Hooper
that was one of the oldest subdivisions
He asked what year it was designed?
informed him the mid 1950's.
Councilwoman Lichter stated but they've got to deal with it
and things change. Their vision today, in twelve years may
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February 6, 2006
not be the same but they've got to deal with what they've
got, what's here now and what they hope for in the future.
The vision is like air almost. You do the best you can but
things change and they have to adjust to change in life.
Civilizations go up as you know and they go down and so do
cities.
Councilwoman Rogers stated that one other thing that none
of them have mentioned in the vision was with the
developments, with the population increase, transportation,
the roads. The MPO is way behind. They are not even on
the list to have anything big come into the City to help
them. So when they are talking about vision, they need to
talk about that more too. These developers want to come in
and they are going to be impacting our roads. She knows
they have impact fees and whatnot but they need to look
hard and heavy at that. They need to perhaps increase
those amounts.
Councilwoman Lichter stated they did get some money.
Volusia County has recent money for roads. Councilwoman
Rogers stated but they are not going to be sending it over
to the City. They need to think about that. Just this
week in the newspaper, the Mayor of Oak Hill was talking
about, she thought the word was infinite possibilities of
development in Oak Hill. She kind of thought land was
finite but Oak Hill residents are going to be driving
through Edgewater, New Smyrna residents are going to be
driving through Edgewater to get to Oak Hill, etc. They
need to think about that. u.S. #1 is starting to look more
like Orange Avenue in downtown Orlando. There are many
things that they are doing over there on the roads that are
parallel to Orange Avenue and they need to look along those
lines. Delaine Street Park. She was sure they were
familiar with where that's at. Some of those roads that
are in between Delaine and Orange Avenue are dead-ended.
Some of those roads are made one way. They've got a
resident that lives down off of Evergreen Avenue which is
the cut through between u.S. #1 and Riverside for people to
get to and from the Bert Fish Medical Center. That road is
like a highway. They have these problems and these are
real and they need to add that into their vision as well.
ADJOURNMENT
Mayor Thomas adjourned the workshop.
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February 6, 2006
Minutes submitted by:
Lisa Bloomer
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