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02-06-2006 - Workshop CITY COUNCIL OF EDGEWATER WORKSHOP FEBRUARY 6, 2006 6:30 P.M. COMMUNITY CENTER MINUTES CALL TO ORDER Mayor Thomas called the Workshop to order at 6:30 p.m. in the Community Center. ROLL CALL Mayor Michael Thomas Councilwoman Debra Rogers Councilman Dennis Vincenzi Councilwoman Harriet Rhodes Councilwoman Judith Lichter City Manager Kenneth Hooper City Clerk Susan Wadsworth Paralegal Robin Matusick Present Present Present Present Present Present Present Present INVOCATION, PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE There was a silent invocation and pledge of allegiance to the Flag. MEETING PURPOSE The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the 2006 Goals/Objectives to provide direction for staff in their implementation. City Manager Hooper informed the Council the package that they had was a goal setting agenda. They started this back in 1998. He got here in October of 1997. They had their first one in March of 1998. They have usually been the first quarter every year since then. For some reason in 1999, there was a vacant year but they had in their package goal setting, each year of what was projected to be projects. These are fairly closely and tightly connected to the budget. As staff they use these. Part of these are telling them the status of the things that are in this current budget and then their input for how they budget for Page 1 of 1 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 next year. There are two sides to the goal of this policy and what they try to do. City Manager Hooper stated last year for the first time, after the work session they took the goal setting and placed it on the agenda. So it became an agenda item that they voted, adopted and accepted and then they used that as a kick off for going into the budget. That's their intent this year, assuming they clearly get to that point. City Manager Hooper stated the goals are usually short term that they were seeing. They are a one to two-year approach and that approach is related mostly to budgets but they have some larger policy issues that they talk about. They talked about some of the things that they are looking down the road in a two or three year process. He thought they would like get to a process in which they do multiple year budgets so that they would be appropriating one budget but capital for this year would be planned and appropriated in following years to expand some of that. That's becoming modern government if you will of thinking ahead and making sure that what they build is capital projects and that they are also looking at the funding to operate those in the future. Most of the input they would see tonight, generated by the directors that were all there tonight and as they talk, if there are any questions, they will come up and join them at the table. City Manager Hooper further stated he had taken on their front page and showed a summary or condensation of all the directors, their verbatim was included in their package so that they could see their view of what each department was doing. He tried to summarize it for Council in an order in which they could at least discuss that list of projects. These for the most part are appropriated. They are adopted in the budget or they are things they want to talk about going into this upcoming year. City Manager Hooper then commented on Economic Development, ParkTowne Center. He felt the best way to do this was for Council to ask questions as they go through it instead of trying to go through it all and come back. City Manager Hooper commented on the summary of what the Economic Development Board was doing, what they propose to do and where they were going with some of that. He then commented on job creation. For ParkTowne itself the whole Page 2 of 2 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 objective was to buy the property that they did from the Florida Inland Navigation District, make the necessary capital improvements, sell the property for enough money to pay the debt service and then put the infrastructure in for the next phase and the City's win out of it if you will, is the tax roll gets increased and then the creation of jobs for the young folks that are coming up through high school to have a place to work. City Manager Hooper then commented on the commercial growth along the 1-95, SR 442 interchange. In the last two years they have approved a policy to put water and sewer at the interchange. That's been implemented. The idea was a mixed use of commercial and residential development at the interchange, to be able to develop the interchange and get maximum benefit of that land use. Most of it is mixed use at the interchange and then they have some residential that surrounds that. City Manager Hooper then spoke about the industrial growth at ParkTowne, Massey Airport and along Park Avenue. That's the corridor of the City that's really slated for the largest job creation and the largest industrial commercial growth. If they start at U.S. #1, then went along Park Avenue, everything to the north that really is ParkTowne. They work their way further out. The next project they get is as they head west, it's going to be the Massey Airport and that is more than an airport. That's also aviation related and expanding commercial. Mr. Massey is annexing the part from his airport all the way out to Old Mission with the intent that most of that along the Park Avenue frontage is industrial commercial development. City Manager Hooper spoke of having some job creation along the U.S. #1 corridor for a medical facility. As they were aware the hospital had purchased 60 acres south of us, almost opposite the Hacienda Complex. That has a police/fire station site that was donated by the hospital to the City. The part of the goal of the Economic Development Board is the creation of industrial jobs. But highlighted in there one of the strong one, which is new for us is probing into the medical facility side. With that 60 acres it is slated to be continuing care, a hospice and a walk in type of a clinic, a minor emergency room and then the ancillary support which is probably going to be doctors and medical kinds of offices. They have yet to submit a site plan. They have a team of professional Page 3 of 3 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 medical planners developing their master plan. Their engineering associated with their drainage. They should see that coming through in Mayor June of this year. City Manager Hooper mentioned the major construction going on in ParkTowne. Timaquan Trail, which is the most easterly road that runs north and south. They will see three large ponds being constructed, drainage improvements, there are large concrete pipes. Those move the water from that area over to the canal and out to the Gabordy Canal further out to the Indian River. That's about $1.3 million worth of construction, design and permitting out of last year's budget. Construction dollars and construction contract awarded this year. They had the groundbreaking ceremony he believed in November. He thought most of them attended. Contracts underway, that's going to open up the infrastructure to sellout the balance of the first phase, which has sold and the new price, for any future development is probably in the $125,000 per acre. Mr. Massey, Oscar Zeller, and Scott Porta are all in the $125,000 to $137,000 for any property that's being sold. City Manager Hooper commented on when they got into that business, their first year was $50,000. They had the opportunity to purchase the property from FIND for about a $5 million price tag that included about 160 developable acres and then about $2 million worth of road and drainage improvements came in with that. Their deal with Florida Inland Navigation District was 10 years. The first 6 were level loaded meaning equal debt service payments of about $500,000 a year. Then the last four there was an interest payment involved but the interest payment was a very low number. It's what they would have invested with the State. They have had 3 years worth of payments and have made all three years in a sum. If they recall profit is going back in. That's where the money for the improvements of the drainage is. Their next project is Base Leg Road. Base Leg Road is the first road they come in and see and it would be off to your left or to the west and that's going to open up about 60 acres of property that is going to go down to Scott Porta's area but mostly on Massey's property. Their agreement is a mixture of public, private partnerships in which they have 4 or 5 private entities in the ParkTowne. The City is the major holder. They have created a Homeowners Association for lack of a better term but a Property Owners Association and has everybody involved. They have their own set of bylaws and rules. Page 4 of 4 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 The City is a member of that. The City is the largest and the vote-setting member of it. But as they sell property and it changes hands, it turns into like they would see in a normal Homeowners Association, that the owners themselves would be able to vote and regulate more aesthetics, how often it's maintained. He thinks the very beginning calls for the City to do the maintenance of the roads. They are public roads and drainage because the City installed those. City Manager Hooper then commented on the 70-acre parcel in ParkTowne that they talked about in the past that was Dr. Morgan's piece. It's a component that is a member of ParkTowne but has zero development infrastructures in it at this time. Dr. Morgan and the City have talked on numerous occasions. The property's for sale and that is probably the missing component that they want to discuss whether the City purchases, whether it goes into private purchase development and hit it in the next year. There are several players meaning other partners that are interested in buying ten to twelve, the City buys all seventy and then they turn around and sell part of that. That's more of an informational item. As they get closer and if they do want to purchase it that will be an agenda item that they will go through. Councilwoman Lichter felt for years they have neglected and she has brought it up in the past and that's economic improvement or development or beautification of Hibiscus and Guava. In other words, small industry that already exists, small businesses that are here she doesn't think they pay enough attention to. She was wondering if Economic Development could not get in contact with some of those owners, perhaps talk about some beautification, some improvements, maybe a sign on SR 442 letting them know what's back there. She thinks that's a neglected area of the City and there are some pretty good businesses but they just go on at the pace they were before. She thinks there are smaller industrial parks also off certain streets, an industrial area and she thinks they've got to concentrate somewhat on what they have as well as what they want. She thinks that would improve the look of it and the morale of the whole City. City Manager Hooper agreed with Councilwoman Lichter. He explained what's occurring is new projects along Guava and Hibiscus are developing. They are meeting new standards. They are looking like industrial buildings, commercial Page 5 of 5 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 buildings. Where they struggle is some of the older ones, they were put in without drainage. They have some unpaved area. Since the Codes have changed, those are getting under more pressure and phased out. The City has put some grant money. They have been able to obtain some that will help with the drainage. But as for aesthetics and signage, they haven't done much with that. Councilwoman Lichter stated maybe Economic Development, which happens to be an excellent board, might have someone to address that problem. Councilwoman Rhodes commented on coming up with incentives but not only on Guava and Hibiscus. like to see it happen on u.S. #1 and everywhere some She would else. City Manager Hooper stated that those are done in other places, where a city will put aside in their budget a hundred thousand and they match. Instead of the City going after grants, they get the people who live here going after improvements. They tried some of that after the hurricanes. In the hurricanes, many of the signs blew down and the people were making repairs. Mr. Lear met with most of those that had pole signs and they were ugly so they were trying to get ground signs and they were successful in a couple of places. Many just said no and their offer was that the City would pay the difference. If the pole sign cost fifty thousand to repair and a ground sign was sixty thousand, they were going to pay the ten thousand. They had some luck. Some just said no thanks, they liked their sign the way it was and wouldn't deal with them. Councilwoman Lichter felt maybe if it wasn't a City official, some of these members of Economic Development are very experienced and it might help. On the side of the bank that they did not buy, there are industries and further down that street and all that need water help with the water problem and some type of morale boost. Councilwoman Rhodes stated that if they go down u.S. #1 in any city in Volusia County it looks terrible all the way, including the City of Port Orange. It looks kind of run down. City Manager Hooper stated an incentive program works. It's dollar so it's money coming into a program to help upgrade. Logically they spend money on the beautification Page 6 of 6 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 of medians that would certainly make some sense to help with the beautification on those private properties adjacent so that they would look better. He agreed to look at that, if that was a direction, put that in the budget for some incentive programs and think that through and help them have a package that would go in with the budget. Councilwoman Rogers stated when she spoke to City Manager Hooper last week in reference to Regions Bank, the vacant land that's adjacent to it, the doctors had purchased that. She asked him if he had heard anything as far as what their plans were and if they were planning to build medical professional buildings there? City Manager Hooper stated what he believed they were doing was they have the vacant land that they purchased. Their initial intent was to build a new doctors facility. They since then have purchased the bank. They have a contract but they have not closed on it. He thought they were rethinking that and may want to develop the bank as their doctors facilities and then they are looking with the property adjacent to build a new bank, sell it back to Regions so that they can build a smaller bank and then some other kind of support medical facilities. Things that would help with laboratories or so forth for the doctors office. Councilwoman Rogers stated that the reason she mentioned this was because of the Economic Development Board. With the medical facilities that they are probably going to have built here, with the 60 acres that Bert Fish has acquired further down u.s. #1. With these doctors buying that property and with the contract at Regions Bank, it would seem that Edgewater has in the future, hopefully they are going to have a nicer looking u.S. #1 then some of these other cities because they are going to have these medical facilities and doctors. Those types of buildings and to attract the patients that they want to have come in are going to look a lot nicer then some of the existing buildings that they have right now. City Manager Hooper agreed and informed her a couple of things have occurred. Code enforcement has been strong along u.S. #1. Even though ours aren't very pretty, they are better then what they see along the u.S. #1 strip in other areas so that's constantly upgrading. Where there are new buildings and facilities coming in, those meet the Page 7 of 7 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 new Codes. along u.s. describing process. They are going to have development standards #1, gateway corridors so exactly what she was was going to occur as part of the redevelopment City Manager Hooper asked Liz McBride to get the brochure that the Economic Development Board had developed. It's basically a brochure and it has room for inserts depending on who they are going to meet with. If they are off to an aviation type convention then they put in those kinds of facts. If it's a health convention but they probably would be very pleased of the overall highlights. This is a brochure put together mostly by the Economic Development Board. Shannon Lewis did quite a bit of work on it and the County paid for it. He felt it was quite an eyepiece. Some years ago he thought the Chamber had done one. It had a little picture up front and the Edgewater logo. This was a far advanced portion of that and they have five boxes so there are a lot of them. The County gave them a grant and paid somewhere around $15,000 to put them together and then do the printing. He felt they would find it pretty attractive. Now the Economic Development Board's homework assignment was the insert so that as they develop facts, demographics, more details to meet with certain kinds of companies, that becomes the basic marketing material and then they add to that the additional fact that they want to present when they do go on conferences. There are a couple local ones in Orlando dealing with medical facilities that are looking to relocate. Annually they go with Boston Whaler to the Miami Boat Show and set up a booth with them. Sometimes they go to Daugherty and they set up a booth. They are part of that and their boat building facilities are growing and expanding and moving like crazy right now. Councilwoman Rhodes stated she knew their budget was cut and asked if were going to have a budget for the inserts. City Manager Hooper informed her they did have the budget for that. Most of what they cut was Shannon's time. They looked at what had been utilized of her last year and they have had a $30,000 budget item and they were using less time. That's for some of it and then some of the trips were reduced down so that instead of multiples going, a single individual goes and shares that information. Councilwoman Lichter stated they still have the gentleman that is the provost at the College on their Economic Development Board. Has there been coordination with the Page 8 of 8 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 college and the boating industry? The college and the doctor and nursing industry to provide that type of training? Has that gone any place? Because he said he was very interested. City Manager Hooper informed her that had occurred and he was aware of that. He spoke about the article in the newspaper that the main campus opening a law school and a medical school. Kind of a preliminary for those going back to FSU but that is working and expanding. The doctors indicated to them that any programs that either Brunswick Whaler is interested in he would certainly make happen at the campus. Some of that's occurred. He has described that his enrollment has exceeded their expectations and the college is growing and will only get stronger as the high school right across the street is developed and 10th Street is widened. All of those are in favor of the college growing and growing at a fast pace. Mayor Thomas asked about the canal that runs along 10th Street. They talked about it the other day and nobody really owns it and it would be up to Edgewater to get in a joint venture with New Smyrna and the County to clean it out so the proper drainage does occur. He asked City Manager Hooper if he needed direction to do that and if they were going to do that. City Manager Hooper informed him he was working on that. He had a meeting with New Smyrna and the County last week. They brought it up, discussed it and now they are scheduling a meeting in which they can figure ownership. That's a very difficult question because that is the city line between New Smyrna and Edgewater. He believed that the County had jurisdiction but it takes all of them in a room to talk about who can clean it up. There is some road realignment as they fix or widen 10th Street. That canal needs to be repaired. That's the drainage for not only that area but our whole City, half the City drains through that. That's part of what they are working on and that would be occurring in the next 30 days. City Manager Hooper then commented on the Comprehensive Plan Update. They heard the smart growth story. A couple of things in there that occurred is Senate Bill 360. It has some direct impacts. It is a large bill that describes how growth management is supposed to work. It's probably the first serious legislation since the mid 1980's when the Page 9 of 9 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 Growth Management Act was put in place that created Comprehensive Plans. By the end of this year they are supposed to have for transportation a proportionate fair share formula. DOT has drafted a go by model in which they go back and look at whatever project is coming online. A development is coming online, it produces trips. So as those trips go on a certain road, they are supposed to be able to track where they originated from and he should pay a fair share of that expansion of that road. They have very similar already in place an impact fee system that works to do that. But if there are any gaps between those dollars this ordinance is supposed to help cure that. At the end of next year, 2007, they have a Capital Improvement Element that's mandated. In years past, there was a Capital Improvement Element in each Comp Plan but it wasn't mandated to be updated and reviewed annually. That's changed. They have a consultant, B & H Consultants under way to work with theirs and expand theirs into make it match the budget. They will see that adopted this year and into next year they will see some of the changes as that gets fine-tuned. The final thing in there that's not currently being done is School Concurrency. School Concurrency for Volusia County kicks in June of 2008 in which if a school is over capacity, the developer is obligated to either not develop or pay dollars equal to what their impact would be. That's over and above school impact fees so those start to kick in. He didn't want to tell them that they are not doing something right now. There is planning with the School Board. This last Comprehensive Plan update that they went through. The School Board gives them a list of each school. They tell them how many seats are vacant and that's taking into account when they approve or recommend approval and it goes off to the Department of Community Affairs. There is joint participation with the School Board. It's done regionally. One of the promises made that have been included in their last Comp Plan was that they would work with New Smyrna, unincorporated Volusia County, Edgewater and Oak Hill and have a plan that would identify school sites. As these developments come on board, particularly the larger ones, the ones out by the interstate or the ones larger to the south identify sites for new middle schools, elementary and high schools. They have some modifications to the Comp Plan that are due primarily with the Manatee Protection Plan. This last year they heard him talk about the aggregation rule, that if they took the entire length of the City and they get so many slips per every hundred feet, Page 10 of 10 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 if those were not to be used they were able to aggregate and control those by the City and they wind up with something like 414. After everybody on the river and every commercial place had their allocation there were some left over. They've got a pool of those that they can sell, they can lease, they can barter, they can use and to do that, they have to go through and modify the Comp Plan. It acknowledges first the aggregation rules and how those rules would be put in place. If the developer wants to use or come and borrow or come and lease those how would that be put into effect. That's going to be in this first set of Comp Plan Amendments coming up this year. Those amendments are going to go through he believed in March, they would see them on the Planning & Zoning Board. Council would see them about 30 days later. Then it gets transmitted to DCA. They would see it 90 days later and then they would have their second reading of that. City Manager Hooper then spoke about there being some minor changes to the Recreational Element. Mostly instead of identifying so many shuffleboard courts or so many tennis courts per person, they are going to try to identify so much in a way of square footage or acreage per person and let that be a simpler rule to implement and follow. He then spoke about some minor modifications to the land use depending on what they do with the Land Development Code. They talked to them at the work session a week or so ago that if they went from gross density to net density, some Land Development Code changes were strong enough. They were referred to back in the Comprehensive Plan. It was going to take both of those modifications to make that occur. They would have two cycles next year. April is for the first cycle. The second is not scheduled but normally it's done in August or September for any modifications to the Future Land Use Plan. They saw in the paper the DRI for the property out west. It is separate from those two cycles. It works its way through the system stand alone and independent of the cycles. They may see that this year but he would predict it would be in 2007. Councilwoman Lichter expressed concern with one thing about the Recreation Open Space Element. She thinks they have learned to work with the cities around them and the County that's part of that. It's an imaginary division. The land is in common and she thinks there are places where they touch New Smyrna with that might apply, Oak Hill and the County. She didn't know if they meet with them on that Page 11 of 11 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 type of thing. She thought they mentioned it in smart growth. City Manager Hooper stated that those were two different steps. What occurs on the Comp Plan and it's easier to describe it in terms of water. They allocate so many gallons per person and that becomes their level of service. Switching now to recreation, they allocate so many square feet per capita of public open space or parks. That's Edgewater's job to say they guarantee for 20,000 people they will have so many square feet of open space. The next level, they can go and talk to New Smyrna about how to share or how to use the open space. The City is still on the hook for our amount to provide the same as new Smyrna for so many of their population. Councilwoman Lichter asked does that go through also to hiking path and the bike path. Is that how they do it? Where does that directive come from? That there is going to be this hiking path through Volusia County. City Manager Hooper stated different levels. The State can create their own and it stayed on in control. The railroad right of way, the spur that goes from U.S. #1, it goes west out to 1-95 and then goes all the way down to Titusville is being sold. That's being sold to the State and the Federal Agency so they buy the railroad right of way. They convert it into the Rails to the Trails, comes through your City. They can have some minor discussion about how it's developed and the drainage but it's really controlled by outside agencies. But as the County and State go up, they have little control over that. Pass that any local trails or any kind of boardwalks are up to Council to decide where they want and how much of that they want to use. Councilwoman Lichter asked if they were in on the bike path and the hiking trails that she believed when through Volusia County? Are they part of it? She asked if Jack Corder could answer that. Leisure Services Director Jack Corder stated currently they are in on the initial phase of the planning. That's as far as they go with it on the Rails to Trails. That's the County and the State working its way through. Mayor Thomas on the Miami felt they should have some say. Corporation. They are going to Page 12 of 12 They do out build through Council Workshop February 6, 2006 them and he has gone and had meetings with them. trading some land. He thinks they can have some they want some say. They are say if City Manager Hooper stated part they can ask and part they have final control. A city, a County and the State really has no say over railroad properties. So the railroad owns that right-of-way that the Feds granted them authority starting in the 1800's. They have the right to sell it and they are selling it to a State and Federal Agency. That is exempt from the City's rules or the County rules so they are exempt. That doesn't mean they won't coordinate, come in and talk. Just what Mayor Thomas said can occur. They can say well that railroad path comes right through where they want to do something, it sure is a mess and they will give them a hundred feet but they are going to move it over to the perimeter of their property. As long as it's connected at both ends, generally they will work with them. Heathrow had one of those, where it went right through what you see as the center of Heathrow and they moved it over next to the interstate. So they had the road and then a bike path through there. So that occurs. They are nice if they work with you. The railroad is usually very difficult to work with and so are the feds as they know. They have to negotiate with a little leverage. City Manager Hooper then discussed the Land Development Code Update. They had some discussion. They had their work session on that. He identified what he believed came out of that and that's a desire to change from the gross density calculation that they currently do to a net density calculation. The gateway standards primarily along U.S. #1. When he says that that's from U.S.#l on the north side of Edgewater all the way through down to Ariel Road. They are having standards that will apply to new development and then some redevelopment standards for the existing portion of the City. The existing portion as they just described is most difficult to work with. For example, Dr. Chess that was in front of Council. That will be the type of issues they will face time and time again as people have small properties that either go through redevelopment or something like the mobile homes that have parks that try to change into something else because there is no space. They are limited over drainage that they can do. Setbacks are real difficult because they have already got structures up there. But they work with them the best they can to make something that's better then they have today and it may not Page 13 of 13 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 match all the rules but the idea is to make it so that it is aesthetically better. They have those gateway standards along there. City Manager Hooper then commented on flood plain/wetlands protection. Some of the things they talked about were restrictive use below the hundred-year flood plain. Very strong rules about wetlands protection. They have most of those in place. There are some enhancements that they can do about compensating storage and they can go all the way to saying no filling in below the hundred-year flood plain. City Manager Hooper then spoke about architectural standards. He believed they were talking about commercial. He didn't think they were into homeowners in talking about house colors or any of that. Maximum height restriction. As a group they talked of fifty feet. Then the minimum lot size at 75 feet. His idea is to develop a set of changes or propose modifications to the Land Development Code. That process would go back to the Planning & Zoning Board and go through as their land-planning agency. Have them review and have them comment. Have the public comment and then it works its way through the process. They are going to require two public hearings. The only one of the ones he talked about that really related back to the Comp Plan that's going to take even longer, is the one on the net verses gross density that's defined in their Comprehensive Plan. Councilwoman Lichter asked City Manager Hooper to explain that in more detail. City Manager Hooper stated simple example. A hundred acres and forty acres of it are wetlands. Today if they went there and they were entitled to five units to the acre, they would have five times the hundred so they would have five hundred units. If they went to a net density and forty of it were wetlands they would have five times the sixty so they would have three hundred units. So by that simple definition they change the total number of units on a piece of property without doing anything else except the definitions. It eliminates the developer's ability to transfer development rights over wetlands. They probably couldn't or if they did they would be very expensive to develop in an area that would be uplands. The caution and what they need all to understand is they are talking of jurisdictional wetlands. What he thinks is a wetland or Page 14 of 14 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 what Harriet thinks is a wetland or what the Mayor thinks is a wetland, it only matters what the Water Management District says is a jurisdictional wetland. They are the ones who have the authority over wetlands. They can have standards and how to protect it locally but they are the ones that have the sole right to say what is a wetland. They have the rules that identify that. Once that's done and it's a pretty simple process that if he were a consultant for a property owner, he would go out there, he would flag them and put stakes. They call the Water Management District out. They look them over. They say yes that's right or no it has to be here. After that is said and done it's surveyed that becomes a new boundary. That's a magic line of a jurisdictional wetland. Councilwoman Lichter stated in the development she lives in, surrounding it are wetlands. Across the street where she gets phone calls etc. there are wetlands. She thinks that many people that come from different areas do not understand what wetlands are. They think that when the water flows and it's higher then other times, they think it's going to go on their property. She had a case in her development where people started to fill in the wetlands. They didn't know they were wetlands. Tracey and Terry came and helped explain it. There has obviously got to be more education because people are moving near them and their development may not even be directly touching it but they are there. They don't quite understand the significance of wetlands. They've got to be more clearly marked with maybe signs posting because it's an education process that many northerners are not aware of and she thinks it's important when they put in developments whether they are going to count net verses gross that people are educated to what a wetland means. City Manager Hooper said what typically occurs is they see it come in as a development plan. It looks like a master plan. Somebody may stand in front of Council and say well here is what they were going to protect. They all agree. They go away and they plat it. Then he shows up and buys a lot and he says he would like his yard to be a little bigger and he starts filling. He doesn't need permits from the City to do that on a platted lot. It's already supposed to be taken care of so they get that encroachment. Little enforcement. Those are really difficult to do. They deal with some of it but that's an education that it's not only there but it's beyond what they do. That school Page 15 of 15 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 system and State system and St. John's that a lot of people are talking about. Councilwoman Rogers commented on the maximum height restriction. She felt what was reported last week in the paper was a little misleading. As was mentioned to her and the City Council last week or at the workshop on the 28th there was already in place the 35-foot height limitation for residential. The fifty feet she was talking about when she initially proposed it, she was directing more to like RPUD's, the type of zoning where condominiums and apartments could be built under. The residential 35 feet, that should stand. As far as the limitation for commercial, they probably need to discuss that a little bit more. That's a concern because what happens if in the future they build a City Hall and they need 40 feet. She feels with the commercial they should have some flexibility but the RPUD's or the type of zoning where condominiums or anything more than two stories, that's where they need to put the limit at no more than 50 feet. She thinks they need to be real specific about that. City Manager Hooper stated they have a table that they showed Council last week that shows the height restriction on everything except the PUD's. What he gleaned from last week was residential on the PUD side is what they are looking at as 50 feet. Councilwoman Rogers stated because that's the zoning for where a condominium comes into play. City Manager Hooper stated that's correct and that's why it's going to the Planning and Zoning Board. A lot of discussions are coming back to Council and he thinks those things get fine-tuned. By then the hospital will have an opportunity to tell them whether they want more than 50 feet. He didn't have any idea. If they are planning on something more or that doesn't bother them, that's the whole public process. For them to have somebody out there come in and tell them they have been thinking of doing a hospital with 62 feet what do you think. It's to get those kinds of comments in front of them. Councilwoman Rogers then commented on the minimum lot size. The 75 feet was to be for uplands. When they are dealing with the lowlands, she proposed initially one per one acre and then Mayor Thomas proposed one per two and a half acres. They need to be specific about defining an upland verses a lowland. Especially with the proposed development Page 16 of 16 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 that is going to come to them on the west side of 1-95 and already half of that is wetlands. City Manager Hooper explained that what they are going to see is when this comes back in front of them, instead of those kinds of terms that are vague, they are going to talk of things above the hundred year and below the hundred year because those are technical areas that are drawn on a map instead of uplands and lowlands. Councilwoman Rogers asked so the above the one hundred year, they are going to use that to define an upland and below the one hundred year to define a lowland? City Manager Hooper informed her that was correct. Those are universal terms that every surveyor, every engineer that comes in front of them to do one of these is familiar and they know how to mark those. Councilwoman Rogers asked would a biologist use that term? City Manager Hooper explained that he uses that more so to identify wetlands. He and the consultants were saying they would be on a site that would flag wetlands. That's his job. He looks at soil types. He looks at the types of plant material and the hydrology of the soil to try to tell then where that wetland would be. They could have a wetland today that's dry if it is dry season but next year in April or May when it starts to rain they are going to be knee deep in the same water but they can't tell if that's the same kind of soils that quick. Councilwoman Rogers stated these large developments that will be coming to them, she was assuming that will have a toll poll presented to them and that of course was going to show them the hundred year above and below. City Manager Hooper informed her that was correct. City Manager Hooper stated that he was going to hand one to Council tonight that's going to be a large one, not the big one that they talked about for 6,000 acres. This is about 900 acres. Councilwoman Lichter stated she believed in the flexibility of a PUD. Every lot, every development is different. Some lend themselves to common areas like in a couple of senior parks she knows and they clustered their homes closer. But it's not only senior parks that lend itself to that. Some developments lend themselves to three different types of Page 17 of 17 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 lot sizes depending and some have more than one style house in them. They may have single-family homes, they may have attached, duplexes. They might have something else depending. She believes the greatest plus of the PUD is flexibility, which includes height. She wasn't saying they should be skyscrapers but she was saying that sometimes when you use up more land then you should when you could use less that might be an answer on a particular plot. She thinks it's almost an insecurity and she was not reflecting on anyone in particular to have to have on a PUD definite, exact things. She thinks they should do their homework on each individual development that comes in front of them. She may end up the minority on that but she really believed that there was room for all types of housing, all price housing. Close and further apart depending. Some places obviously you can't put it close together. You may well need that acre or two and they are identifiable before the fact. But generally there is flexibility and she was very much in favor of that type of flexibility, which they now have. The lawyer did mention when he was here last week some possibilities of making a particular height and then saying there are ways to make it more flexible under certain circumstances. She was perfectly willing to hear that again, that type of thing but she just wanted that for the record. Councilman Vincenzi stated for the record, he didn't agree. He thinks the flexibility of the PUD is fine, however it does need a few restrictions. Two of them would be height restrictions and lot sizes. He thinks the majority of the problems they run into with developments coming in are in those two areas. He thinks the flexibility that they have in negotiating these RPUD's is just too much. He thinks they need some flexibility but not as much as they have. He thinks that would eliminate a lot of problems. Mayor Thomas called a ten-minute recess at this time. The meeting recessed at 7:20 p.m. and reconvened at 7:30 p.m. City Manager Hooper stated what he handed out was an early version. This came in late November 2005, the McCaskill parcel. It is 877 acres. It has about 600 acres with the land use designation of mixed use and has about 300 acres that's a buffer that surrounds the property. This is the normal way they see an early set of plans. This was done by an Engineering Firm, a Planning Firm. They bring in the set of plans and this starts the staff review of the 900 Page 18 of 18 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 acres that they want to develop on, what they want to do. He referred to the table that talks about the use. It's color coded where they are going to have smaller lots, larger lots. He got a copy that they had sent he thinks asking for a meeting with each of them, if it's not already asked, it's coming, in which they want to try to do an explanation to say at day one here is their plan, here is what they would like to do. The only thing committed today, which he calls an entitlement, is at the interchange. Its highest and best use and it's been determined to be a mixed use. They have only two areas of the City that have his mixed use designation. At the interchange and then they have along SR 442 by the Water Plant where Coral Trace and the commercial parcel is. This is more information if they have questions. If it is a very detailed question, he suggested they get with him one on one or they could get with Darren one on one. Councilwoman Rhodes stated the letter she received said they would do a workshop or they wanted to talk to each of them one on one. She asked if the workshop would be better? City Manager Hooper explained that a developer would like to do both. He is going to talk to Council and see what he can learn and then do a workshop so that's the normal protocol. When the attorney described to Council the ex- parte communication, the legislative side of what they do as a Council is done. They have granted them the land use. The next portion is semi or quasi judicial in which they are acting as the jury, that as the judge and jury do they match the Land Development Codes and criteria and that's the one that City Attorney Rosenthal described that they could meet with them if they wanted to. There are a lot of ways to handle that. This is just early discussions that to date this is what's been asked for by them. This is about 1,300 plus units and 360,000 square feet of commercial. This is a sizeable project to the City of Edgewater. The one to the north is probably ten times this size so they will see a larger number coming through the door. If they want to talk about this they can meet and go over that separate. He informed Councilwoman Rhodes this would be a work session. They would get to that. It's just not occurring at this point. Councilwoman Lichter asked if they met with the County on this one? City Manager Hooper informed her no. This was Page 19 of 19 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 annexed 12 years ago or more. Mr. Lear informed him it was annexed in 1994. City Manager Hooper then commented on Recreational Facilities. This was a list of each park and what they are doing. Hawks Park is going to have an amphitheater, rest room, soccer complex. This is slated for this year and they have $460,000. That's a combination of some City money, some grant money. Rotary Park has the shuffleboard and racquetball court that is being relocated from across the street at Kennedy Park. It's total is about $500,000. They have some FEMA money in there. They have some insurance money in there and then they have some match money from the City. Kennedy Park across the street has a fishing pier that's been approved and there is some match money also for grants in there. Whistle Stop Park has tennis court repairs and updates. That's what they have in their budget. Those are capital projects. Those are in a various form right now, either being designed, permitted and if they have any questions and if they want to go into details Leisure Services Director Jack Corder was there to answer any of that. Councilwoman Lichter stated it's no longer just a Recreational Board. It also encompasses cultural and historical. From day one she fought for that mural that's no longer there because it got wiped out. That's not being replaced however the shuffleboard courts are. That was only $5,000 and it was taken from historical pictures in this community and painted by the same gentleman, Courtney Canova, who did all of Deland's murals and that historical and cultural is supposed to be under Recreational Board now. She thinks a bit they are missing the boat on this type of thing. She didn't necessarily agree because she was glad Dr. Chess was fixing that house and making it if it really is a historical building it should have a plaque on it. She still thinks he had to do the things they made him do. She was wondering if they shouldn't be identifying other places in the City that might be historical and trying to encompass some historical ideas into their recreational programs. By that she meant song, dance, the history of the City. She knows that they have their little historical building and she didn't think the Southeast Historical Society pays enough attention to Edgewater and she is a member of it and it's historical and cultural but she thinks they have to look at that aspect also. Page 20 of 20 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 City Manager Hooper explained that Board works on some of that. They also work on beautification. He has highlighted the big dollar items in the budget but there are some smaller projects that are underway. Councilwoman Lichter stated she would like to see identification on some of the buildings or even the top that's left over at the Hardware Store, was the first school. She thinks they are disappearing. This street is historical and she didn't think people really know. They may go to Joann's one lecture and find out. She was wondering if there was more they might look at doing. Mr. Corder stated that he knew in the past that JoAnne Sikes and Lynne Plaskett had made rounds and tried to identify some of the older buildings in the City. It's been kind of set on the back burner so he can push that forward and have them further identify them. Some of the problem is they have one house in particular where he approached them about historical value and a listing and they refused. They do not want value on the historic register. Councilwoman Lichter mentioned it being the original Hawks house. Mr. Corder informed her it was a different site. They can upgrade that and he can have them go back out and put a list together and see who wants to be identified and go from there. Councilwoman Rhodes asked what about the Wilkinson house on Riverside. She asked if that was what he was talking about. Mr. Corder asked her if she meant the one on the corner right there. Councilwoman Rhodes informed him yes. She then asked how old the house was. Mr. Corder stated they were asked about that house. They actually brought in the County for that house and because of the condition it's in, at that time they recommended not to pursue anything with that particular home. Councilwoman Rhodes asked what was being done with the house now. Mr. Corder stated that presently it's sitting there vacant. Councilwoman Rhodes asked if they could make something be done with it. It's obviously a violation of many, many codes. City Manager Hooper informed her they could do the condemnation process if the goal was to declare it a nuisance. Councilwoman Rhodes asked what the owners wanted to do. They just want to do nothing with it? Have there been any discussions with the owners to find out what their long-term plan is Page 21 of 21 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 for that house? City Manager Hooper stated that probably to sell the lot and make a lot of money. Councilwoman Rhodes asked if they could encourage them to do that in a timely fashion if that's their plan. City Manager Hooper stated that encouragement comes through Code Enforcement saying that it's failing to meet and they start the building permit process of reviewing it. He guessed they have had a little complaint. It's sitting out there; it's just there. Councilwoman Rhodes stated it looks to her like at some point in time, there are going to be some kids who think it's going to be fun to burn it down or smoke pot in it or wear skates through it, vandalize it. It's asking for it in her opinion. City Manager Hooper stated so they are not so much describing it as a historical house as a nuisance house. Councilwoman Rhodes stated that she thinks it's a historical house very probably but like Mr. Corder said if they have owners of it, they can't make them make it a historical house if they don't want it to be that. She asked if there was some way that the City could find out what the intent is for that house. If the intent is the property is going to be sold, the house is going to be torn down well then that's the intent and let's help them get on the road to making that happen. Encourage them to get on the road to making that happen. If that's not maybe they have a different plan, maybe they want to restore the house. She was in that house ten years ago but ten years ago it could have been restored, it could have been really nice. She suggested maybe they could buy the property and restore the house and use it for City use in some manner. It's an eyesore and accident waiting to happen for the owners. Councilwoman Lichter felt the owners of the original Hawks house should be approached again. That's a vital piece of property. It goes back to the original. What else could they ask for of the founder of the City? She does think once they get the cover to the stage that maybe some thought should be given to our history. She meant Indian, Minorcan and the New Englanders and down to whatever, that's who all this started by. But she thinks something in song and dance, working with the college, working with an art school and it doesn't have to be the most elaborate of elaborate but something to teach history through music and dance and song. It might be a wonderful thing for them to do and she has seen it and it was good. Page 22 of 22 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 Councilman Vincenzi stated before they go on, these figures that they have written down. Sometime in the near future he wanted a breakdown of where exactly all the budgeted items are coming from. He stated City Manager Hooper mentioned a variety of sources like grants and impact fees and what not. He asked to get a breakdown on that. City Manager Hooper stated he could give it to him again. It's in the budget. That's when they approved these exact dollars but they can break that down for him. Mayor Thomas asked if the money was allocated already. City Manager Hooper informed him yes. What they are seeing are construction projects that were approved through the budget process and for the most part, he would say they were fifty-fifty matches. The only way it would be different of a match is if it came from FEMA, some reimbursement like the shuffleboard courts or from the insurance. Insurance paid them because of their policy over that. The rest of them are probably ECHO matches. Mr. Corder was going to address some of the concerns. Councilman Vincenzi stated verbally was fine but he also wanted it printed. He asked that it be supplied some time this week. He didn't only want the recreational items he wanted everything. Mayor Thomas stated according to the figures, the Kennedy Park expansion, $145,000. He asked if that was the whole design of the boat ramps and everything? City Manager Hooper informed him no. They will see the fishing pier after that. It's just a portion that they have in their budget this year. What they showed them before was the planning stage and they don't have those kind of dollars yet. Mayor Thomas stated that was going to cost a lot of money. City Manager Hooper informed him that was coming back through them. Councilwoman Rogers felt they were going to have to come up with a plan for City Hall. She sees that they have the renovation of the existing City Hall but just thinking about the City as a whole and historical art, etc. what would it take for them to make Park Avenue on the east side of U.S. #1 be a CRA. In the future if they do get a City Hall built somewhere else it would be good to have a CRA on this side of U.S. #1 so that they would be able to create a Page 23 of 23 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 historic district and do various things. What would it take for them to do that? City Manager Hooper informed her it takes a direction. They have to tell him that's what they want to do. They talked of doing some of that before and having the City Hall as a cornerstone of a CRA. That lead to condemnation of some properties. Because they have an area in there in which some people said yes, they really like that and a handful voted no, that's their homestead and they would never want to do that. They wanted to sell it to their kids. At that time Council said that they didn't want to take anybody's property. Unless they either got the ability to take the property, which they do as a CRA. Councilwoman Rogers asked if they could approach the people and talk with them about selling the properties to them? City Manager Hooper informed her they did that. Councilwoman Rogers asked if they could try to do that again. City Manager Hooper informed her they could try again. Councilwoman Rogers stated SR 442 and U.S.#l, when you are going east on SR 442, where it goes to Riverside Drive, you have Wachovia Bank there. Just south of Wachovia Bank they have an oil change place and then they have a used car lot and then they have a vacant piece of land. What would it take for the City to approach the owners of wachovia Bank and those other two small businesses, perhaps to look at buying that for the new proposed City Hall site? Councilwoman Rogers then commented on the dredging that's been done or is still going on. In the intracoastal they have a lot of dredging sitting there that she mentioned way back when that when they sell that, they have not allocated where those funds are going to go. She had a conversation with City Manager Hooper and asked him what would be an approximate value of that? It was quite a wonderful number and she would think that that would give them a real good head start on possibly trying to acquire that land where Wachovia is and perhaps maybe that could be where the new City Hall would be. They have to think about that. What do they need to do? Tell City Manager Hooper that and then he goes forward? City Manager Hooper stated the City Hall sitings been. He was bruised. He doesn't know that the rest of Council that's been there a while are bruised of a location. They Page 24 of 24 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 have tried several different sites and for a variety of reasons, some financial, some they just were not in the best location. None have worked out so that they have come up with a particular place. That is a site that was not looked at. They were looking mostly for vacant sites. Regions Bank came along because it was proposed to be vacant. They were moving so that became an option. But the rest of them they were looking for vacant areas so that they wouldn't try to buy an existing money making business and take it off the tax roles. They could do some research. They could talk to Wachovia. That's a very expensive interchange, SR 442 and U.S. #1. Councilwoman Rogers said it would be easy access if they did have a City Hall there to get in and out. One of the problems that people were bringing up is the location of where Regions Bank is that that wasn't a good area of accessibility. She would think there it is. Plus they have the City Hall workers when they take their lunch breaks, they are right down the road from that nice Veterans Park. It wouldn't be too far away from Park Avenue. If they did create a CRA in this area, then both areas would help beautify the City and u.S. #1 and help clean it up. It's a thought. Councilwoman Rhodes said and it's a good thought except that it's way too expensive. Why would they take their prime property and build City Hall on it? Build City Hall on cheap property and give prime property to be commercial business so that they get money from it. That's the only objection she had to it. Other than that she thought it was a great idea. Councilwoman Rogers asked what would be the proposed amount that City Manager Hooper thought Wachovia would want to sell that piece for. They don't know unless they try. She didn't think any land in the City was going for cheap too much any more. With the large track going for $92 million, $97 million out west of 1-95. They've got to do something and it's just like anything else. If they look at it at a small scale they've got to have a vision. Where do they want the City to go? Do they want skyscraper condos? Do they want to keep sitting here letting all the developers come and buy all the vacant land or doctors buy the vacant land and then they don't have a City Hall and they are stuck. They are not going to keep trading land. Page 25 of 25 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 Councilman Vincenzi stated they are going to be talking about City Hall soon and what to do and how to save money for it and all that so would it hurt to even ask about it, inquire about it? Councilwoman Rogers said that it's just a thought. City Manager Hooper said that the easiest thing is just go on the property appraisers website and start. He could get a value fast but just off the cuff on other things they have been looking at. He thinks they are talking of that stretch, Wachovia, the next one and the next one. They are probably talking $15 to $20 million. That's some high price, the prime interchange in the whole City. Councilwoman Lichter stated that she had a vision that City Hall should be on the property they own right here. Mayor Thomas informed Councilwoman Lichter they were going to talk about that in just a minute. City Manager Hooper informed Council they had in front of them a before and after an existing sketch of this facility and then an option of what could be done. All of them at one time or another have talked to him about what they could do for a new City Hall. One of the first steps was let's re-evaluate. They thought here they could not do much because of lack of parking and they had some other issues that they were dealing with. They have gone back and looked and if they were to take the Police Station, which is eventually going to go with the new public safety and be relocated. They have some additional acreage. He suggested maybe move some of the development activity out in a few years. They were looking at a five to seven year patch up. What they could do with this facility without spending great money over a period of time and still at the end of the day, they had a facility here that could last as a community center, a senior center or something that they could use. What Mr. Corder has done is drawn a set of plans that is mostly a shell and it has internal to it cubicles that could be put up, moved around and then taken back down. So they have the hardening of the outside. They have some improvements to the restroom structures as well as improvements to the roof so they don't have the leaks and all of those kinds of things. Just a square foot, a unit cost says this is about a $1.5 million. Nobody's sitting there telling them do it all at once. That they phase, they go through, look at a part of it and Page 26 of 26 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 at the end of that time period they have a structure that could last another five or ten years that they have probably outgrown as a City Hall but might have been official use as a senior center or something even associated with the park across the river. The long-term answer is this is a five to seven year plan. They are going to get this big developer out west who is going to really want to talk to them about a Town Center that if that is where they are interested in being then in the fifteen-year time frame, they are at a Town Center that looks an awful lot like what Port Orange has. At the beginning it was way out in the boonies and everybody thought they were nuts because they were building there. But the rest of the area because it's next to the interchange built up. The Town Center is being proposed and the concept by the individual that's doing the design is that the City Hall becomes part of the cornerstone for a larger Town Center area that has shopping and restaurants and commercial attractions. He was not there to tell them today that was the plan but it's like step one of a thought. See if they are interested in it. If they want to get some more serious, they talk of this. They look at some plans. They really get a cost estimate and then they get serious about what they would budget per year, if it's a quarter million, if it's a half a million dollars and how they phase this in. They don't have staff to do the construction so it's a contract. They would contract with somebody to do a piece of it this year and a piece of it next year. It's pricey work. It's a pain because they are going to move people while they fix it and then move them back. Mr. Corder stated what he did was took the existing facility and went in and reviewed it and looked at the old plans. He pointed out the existing, load bearing walls, which couldn't be moved out. With that he did a design, putting them in and using those and worked around them and kind of came up with a plan that would hopefully get them through another five to seven years. with this plan though, they have to do a lot of upgrading. The building was built in 1959. They still have some original wiring in there and original duct work for the HVAC system so everything there needs to be upgraded. He mentioned all the red stuff was either new walls or cubicles. The bathroom facilities would be all be brand new, handicap accessible. He then showed them a roof over coming out of the building into this building with an additional Page 27 of 27 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 conference room. It's got a lot of work that would have to be done. There are not a lot of details to this. This was just conceptual. It's looking for direction on where they would like them to go. City Manager Hooper asked Mr. Corder if he described the beginning where they come in and how they have the little area with the double set of walls so that when they come in the restrooms could be opened but sealed and locked if it's non business hours? Mr. Corder stated in the community center, as it is now this is the seating area. They would add a room here but they would put a wall across the front, make that kind of an entrance lobby. Redo both of these restrooms here because they are so old and nasty. Then come inside with a conference meeting room and then upgrade this facility with possible permanent seating and definitely a better PA system. They would have to do some serious work on some drainage issues there. They would have to add a mechanical room for the HVAC system and new electrical service. The biggest thing he worked on was straight walks, no maze going through as it is now. That was one of the things they looked at. The new restroom facilities would be located in the back. The front entrance coming in, the lobby, lower area was changed and that they would also add a walk up window on the outside where they would pay their bills and so forth. Seating wise, he thought they were in good shape with everybody. There might be a little bit more room if they needed to add by knocking these cubicles down and making them smaller but all in all it's just a pretty compact plan and there is not a lot of space that's wasted in the facility. City Manager Hooper said it has a fairly small amount of expansion area but he didn't see them expanding from a staff level inside City Hall much that as they grow they are trying to grow and they were going to talk abut some of the Finance Department things, they are able to use the computer and so forth. People instead of having to come in, they weren't going to see much of that. They are a big proponent of contracting out so as much as they can as they expand contract some of those services so there are not additional staff. Where they are going to find future staff is mostly in the police, the fire, the parks, Public Works and the areas that are outside servicing the people. They will find very little in here so this easily could Page 28 of 28 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 last that five to seven year window without much strain. If they had to expand the area that they would probably pick out first, just take the development and planning review and move that to a leased facility somewhere else and then they could have that additional space. That could occur. If they had many more building permits, they could add another clerk or two inspectors. Again they do quite a bit of that by contract, that they have a base number and as our inspections go up and in the past they have contracted for that service with private building areas. Then again they would find it would work so if they have interest in that they spend more time, they get a better cost estimate from the hip. It's about $1.5 million and that's just a cost per square foot times the square foot that they've got to deal with. It works. It's a reasonable answer and it will last for quite a while. Councilwoman Lichter questioned seven years being quite a while? City Manager Hooper stated in a frame for him it's quite a while. Councilwoman Rhodes stated for those that don't know this land was donated to the City and it must be used for public use. They don't have an option of selling this off for a load of money and then build City Hall somewhere else, which is what her original thought would be. Upgrades to this building make sense in that they are always going to have to keep this as a public building. Either they build a new one or they upgrade this one so that it can accommodate. She doesn't want to see them put any money into something for seven years and then they have lost the money. She wanted this building to be able to withstand and be something else, even if it needs to be improved at that time for whatever reason. City Manager Hooper said that's their plan is to harden the outside. This is a tough building. It went through the hurricanes. We had a little water damage. It wasn't as bad as what he would have expected so it survived pretty good. What Councilwoman Rogers was talking about earlier, just so everybody's on the same page. In the containment sites, ninety acres in area, 15 feet deep, that is sand that came from the bottom of the river and it's beach quality sand. That stuff is selling for $10 or $11 a yard to move over to the beach. There sits well over $4 or $4.5 million even at the price of just sand. If he had his intent that's just sand that went back into ParkTowne, Page 29 of 29 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 either as fill or as dirt or as dollars that they use to do that. Another option is for them to use some of those proceeds in the General Fund to either buy property to build a City Hall or renovate a City Hall. That's where they were coming from and that was that discussion he had heard described twice. They have some options there and the dollars are not out of the range. Those are real dollars they have invested. FIND has turned over the fill materials. It's ours. It's got to sit for a three or four month period, get all the liquid compressed out and then after that they could sell it to the County and put it on the beach. Councilwoman Rogers said and then City Manager Hooper also made mention that this could be later on a senior center or a senior hall, like the Brannon Center. She liked that idea with the future of the City and with the growth and with the seniors moving in so that everybody doesn't have to go to the Brannon Center. City Manager Hooper stated and more of a public facility that whatever they do with it, it's got to stay public so it's on public property. It could be used for a variety of things. It's sitting here today. Seven years from now they might say that was a better use than a senior center. Councilwoman Lichter stated they are talking about visions and her vision is to have City Hall here. Her first vision is not to have them a refurnished or fixed up old City Hall here. She believes that between next door, here, across the street and some of the properties that might want to sell behind them, they could build a City Hall here that would fit the name of Edgewater and that's her vision. It's historical. It could be traditional southern with a porch and some rocking chairs. It could have some height to it and what would they do with the workers in between. She thinks there are several options. Perhaps one would be to talk to those doctors. Because they said they just bought a bank and they are not going to use all of it or whatever, maybe temporarily they could be in there or elsewhere. $1.5 million spent fixing this and it's still not something to be proud of. It's usable but it's not part of her vision for this City. There are certain cities that have their City Hall on a river or the ocean such as Ormond Beach and Jacksonville. She just thinks there is enough. There are only a few that refused and got very vehement about not selling. The rest were renters or the Page 30 of 30 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 church property or buildings behind them so she thinks a couple of things ought to be looked at before they do the renovation of cubicles. She really thinks what Councilwoman Rogers suggested could be looked into. She wasn't proud of the building that they turned down. She didn't think it was a beautiful City Hall. To her function and beauty can go together. City Hall reflects the personality of a community. She really thinks that could be looked into but also maybe renegotiating and seeing what's available behind them, how far they have to go, could they go up three. She would like to do that before she votes on putting $1.5 million into this place. Councilwoman Lichter stated the YMCA, which never materialized, has a senior center room. She made sure of that way back when they came on board but they did not use it in quite that manner. It became youth and meals and other things, more than a senior center. But there is room over there. Councilwoman Rhodes stated the only thing that concerns her is with Edgewater growing and all of Riverside being residential, the access to it. She felt Councilwoman Rogers had a good point. She has talked about access before. That is a high priority for a lot of people. She happened to be one of them. If it causes her too much trouble to go somewhere she was not going there and would find somewhere else. She knows a lot of senior citizens felt that way. Unless they get them easy accessibility here, which means they have to have from here to U.S. #1, she doesn't think it's a good option. No matter what they do, if they build a new City Hall here or they build it somewhere else, this building has to be updated. It's going to have to happen no matter what they do. Councilwoman Lichter stated they should tear it down. Councilwoman Rhodes questioned Councilwoman Lichter wanting to tear it down. Councilwoman Lichter thought they needed the space and across the street with something cute and parking over there and shops behind. Many years ago they had the opportunity of buying all that property and they let it go. They could have had "the center" that they don't have, a beautiful, historic center. There are a lot of options. Why don't they check into the other bank? Why don't they see if perhaps they are interested in renting space and if any people are interested in selling their Page 31 of 31 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 property behind them. That's her vision and visions don't always happen. Councilwoman Rhodes thinks they should find that out before they spend $1.5 million on this. Let's send them another letter and see if they are willing to sell now. If that's not a possibility then this building has to be upgraded regardless of what they do. Councilman Vincenzi asked if they were thinking of doing these renovations, what's the time frame? City Manager Hooper stated probably in 2007 they would see a portion of it and then the following year another portion. Councilman Vincenzi stated so they wouldn't be starting any renovations, even if everybody said great go ahead and do it until 2007. City Manager Hooper informed him they didn't have money to start until then. Councilman Vincenzi stated so between now and then they could look into these other options? City Manager Hooper stated at some point they have to tell him where they want him to go because there is a lead time of that budget. Councilman vincenzi stated Councilwoman Rogers had an idea. There is a property out there on the corner of the Snowden piece that has been talked about forever so they could start throwing options out and maybe they could have another meeting in a month. Councilwoman Rhodes felt the first thing to do was find out if the people that live here want to sell or would consider it because when they came before them before they absolutely did not and she was going to be the first one to say she would not put someone out of their house. Councilman Vincenzi felt they would be very angry being approached again. He doesn't think they are going to change their minds. Councilwoman Rhodes suggested they just write them a letter and ask them again. Councilman Vincenzi felt they should gently ask them. Councilwoman Rhodes questioned why they would object to that. It's not like they are saying they are going to take their land. They are asking if they had thought about it and if things had changed that they might be willing to. Page 32 of 32 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 Councilwoman Rogers suggested perhaps a more personable approach, rather than just a letter to them. City Manager Hooper stated the problem is they can't find some of them. They don't live locally. There are some that do, some own property, live elsewhere. So they have a mixture. Some they know. They go talk to and his crystal ball said they would get 80% that would say they would love to sell if the price was right. The other 20% would go no, which is exactly where they were before. Even if it's not the same, it's a checkerboard. They need all of it or they can't do the drainage, they can't do the roads, and they can't do the paving. A big part of it is if they fix this place, fix it today with this stuff, they can do this without major outside improvements, meaning drainage. If they say they were going to build a new one and they do a CRA and they take this place and they buy it all, they are going to eat up every bit of property they gain as a pond. They are going to have them comply with new modern drainage standards. There is another side of that. It sounds good, it looks goodi you think you are going somewhere. But it takes a tremendous amount of drainage to meet the new rules that right now as long as they don't expand the footprint of the building or do something different, they are grandfathered or exempt in. The voters have been clear twice to him. He gets that impression that they are not willing to spend real money on a new City Hall. That there are other priorities that they would rather do. Councilwoman Lichter stated that would have to go to them anyway. City Manager Hooper stated at some dollar level it does and that's where they are going to run into the next issue. That dollar level increases every year. It's probably up to $5 million to $6 million now that they don't need to go back. But they still face the political issue that it's been asked twice and told no twice and they say okay, they don't need to because it's under the dollar threshold and they are all going to get beat up. Councilwoman Lichter asked for a million and a half does it go the voters? City Manager Hooper stated no. It's dollars appropriated. The dollars that go to the voters, remember only for borrowing. If they take it out of their annual budget and they set aside money, that's their business to decide that. Page 33 of 33 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 Mayor Thomas asked what the possibility was of staying here, knocking everything down and going up with a new facility? City Manager Hooper didn't think this building could do that. If they kick that around, they could spend some money on architectural. But this thing is very old. Mayor Thomas stated he was talking about knocking this building down and building a new one. Councilwoman Rogers stated that if they knocked it down they wouldn't have that grandfathering and then they are dealing with all the retention and the new requirements for construction. Mayor Thomas asked if that was a possibility? City Manager Hooper stated no, not unless they buy a lot more land. They would have to buy thirty percent equal to this acreage. Mayor Thomas stated that the bottom line is they have to do something for the City employees. This place is atrocious. They need to come up with a common plan and do something for the City employees, bottom line. City Manager Hooper stated so he had gotten some direction. He was going to muddle through, put it all together and bring it back. Mayor Thomas confirmed that City Manager Hooper was going to come up with some options. City Manager Hooper stated he would price, bring it back. He would list some choices and give them some recommendations and they go from there. Mayor Thomas stated if they make these changes here and can get through five to seven more years they work ability for the City employees. What City Manager Hooper was looking at was the future that's out by 1-95 right? City manager Hooper informed him that was correct. Mayor Thomas stated to try to appropriate some land from the developer and then do it there, which would probably be the best option he would say. City Manager Hooper stated they would be successful at that. They are going to want to come in. Part of their Page 34 of 34 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 DRI process lS just that. They are going to be talking of swaps. Councilwoman Rhodes felt if they were going to keep this building as City Hall, then they shouldn't be spending all the money they were going to spend on that park over there. The whole idea, the whole renovation of that over there is for fishermen, boating, that kind of thing. Why would they do that if they were going to cut off all their parking and all their access? City Manager Hooper stated they are not. They are having competing time frames. That park across the street is used intensely on the weekends and this place is open so whatever they create here for space parking, Saturday and Sunday this place is just full of boat trailers. But they've got an interested share there the space that they create. He didn't see them as an incompatible. He saw them as kind of helping each other. Councilwoman Rogers commented on Menard May Park being donated to the City. Did the owners at the time approach the City or did the City approach them to donate that property? Mr. Corder agreed to research it due to that being before he was here. Councilwoman Rogers was thinking about the people that have neighboring pieces of property adjacent to this. When they go to sell it, who is going to want to live in a house right next to City Hall? Right next to all these different businesses and City businesses and whatnot. Is it something perhaps if they were to just go ahead and send out letters. She was saying keep this one and a half. Let's look at this but at the same time let's look at the possibility of sending letters to these property owners that are adjacent to the City Hall and make mention of some of the benefits if they were to later donate it to the City for a future expansion. If these people are not residents here then those properties are probably rentals and they are getting the tax benefit of those rental properties. They could get a great tax benefit too by contributing the land to the City. City Manager Hooper stated he liked the idea but they haven't yet seen anybody give the City any property, especially Riverside Drive property. Page 35 of 35 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 Councilwoman Rogers commented on knowing someone that was going to give their estate to the City when they pass and they are not looking for that future benefit obviously because they will be gone. If people are made aware of things, sometimes they will do it. City Manager Hooper then talked about Public Safety. They have started the process of the design of the public safety, the shared facility between Police and Fire located on the Hospital site. The footprint of the design could also fit at the interchange of 1-95 and SR 442. There is some discussion of an either/or but the design is under way. The Mayor has talked of EOC but also a place to house emergency workers, employees and a grant opportunity is there but it's there only if it is an EOC. If it's an EOC it makes more sense to have the Police and Fire there. So that area is being probed. When he talks of it, it's the same box, the same design, just a different place to put it. He expected the design to be done in July or August. City Manager Hooper then commented on the construction of an Animal Shelter. They have bid the financing, which is a half a million dollars and that opens on February loth of having bank's proposal so it's a public bid. Any local bank can make an offer and they open those. What they are really bidding is a half a million dollars and then they fill in the interest rate. They have three continuing contractors under contract, three continuing construction companies. They are going to take the set of plans that is being completed, the contractor and tell him he's got a half a million dollar budget and those two right now are working together to develop the best plan for the most cost effective and produce about a 5,000 square foot structure that can be added on to at a later date. That will be on Council's agenda in March or April. March will be the award for the half a million dollars with a particular bank and then they will see a construction contract which will be either design build or construction management, a risk company to build that structure with that opening probably before the end of the calendar year. Efforts to try to get them under construction in April and it's a six to eight month time frame for construction. City Manager Hooper informed Council they needed to update some of the Codes that they have. He spoke about cost recovery. That is a deal in which if there is an accident that occurs in the City and if it's a non-resident and if Page 36 of 36 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 somebody is charged then the City would be going after that person's insurance company on an hourly rate to reimburse the cost of the Police or the Fire. It's new. It's cutting edge. It's done in Winter Park and maybe a handful of other places in Florida. They have a bunch of cities watching that if they have the courage to do that, that they will be looking into it. Some of the attack on Winter Park. It makes them look like they are ambulance chasing, they are mercenary. His deal was the citizens have paid their tax so they are covered because they are exempt from the resident. It only happens to them if they are at fault and they are an out of City person. So that's coming to Council as a draft ordinance he thought on the next agenda. Councilwoman Rhodes asked what the purpose of this was. City Manager Hooper informed her money. Councilwoman Rhodes stated but then her insurance rates are going to go up because the insurance companies are going to raise her rates in anticipation of that. So she was going to pay for it one way or the other. So why then have a middleman? City Manager Hooper informed her they were not having a middleman. They are getting the citizens cost. Councilwoman Rogers understood what they were getting but her point was then every citizen in the City's insurance rates are going to go up because eventually all the cities will do it. So no matter where they are, they are going to either be a resident or they are not and their insurance rates are going to be raised in anticipation of the fact that they might have an accident in a place where they are not a resident. City Manager Hooper stated that he was hoping insurance rates go up a little bit and if they have the recovery then the City gets more dollars. Councilwoman Rhodes informed him he could hope that all he wanted but when have they ever gone up a little bit. Councilwoman Lichter stated they go up anyway even if they don't do this. Councilwoman Rhodes stated that was her problem with that plan. She loves the plan and she thinks it's brilliant. That's really thinking outside the box in her opinion. She doesn't see it's going to save money in the long term. Page 37 of 37 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 Mayor Thomas stated if New Smyrna does and they don't then it's going to go up anyway. Councilman Vincenzi asked City Manager Hooper if he had any figures or any statistics like how much money it would bring in and other towns in Florida that already do it. City Manager Hooper stated they had an estimate of the number of hours that they respond. They had some information from Winter Park on what they receive. Some places are not just at fault. It's any time they show up. When they have their public hearing that's part of what they are going to show Council and go through that detail. Councilwoman Rhodes asked what would it cost the City of Edgewater to respond to those out of State residents, divided by the number of residents and the taxpayers in the City. She wanted to know if it is going to cost her five dollars a year or if it's going to cost her ten dollars a year so she can compare it to what she thinks her insurance company's going to raise her rates at. City Manager Hooper agreed to try and answer that. The cost, an hourly rate to respond he had, how many citizens he had so he could tell her that but he didn't know what her insurance company was going to do. City Manager Hooper then went over the fire and hazard prevention codes. Some of those updates will be part of the Land Development Code. Animal Control, they are going to have a facility, a shelter. His anticipation is they are going to have an interlocal agreement with the Pet Society over their role of managing, running, assisting, and volunteering so that agreement would be put in place this year. They are also going to have the set of rules and regulations concerning adoptions, how much it costs, how that facility's actually run. Those are things that are coming to Council in the next 60 to 90 days through that process. City Manager Hooper briefly commented on Public Safety and the EOC grant opportunity. They made step one of what will be a mini phase step about that EOC. He envisions that occurring but that's probably a year or two years out before anything is there no matter what they do for grant. Page 38 of 38 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 City Manager Hooper then talked about Administrative, upgrading customer service. There are several things that have occurred in the Finance Department. They can pay their bills on the phone, online, credit cards. Those continue to grow. The ability to do .gov and interact with the City through electronic media and those will continue to have enhancements. In the budget they have a new phone system. They are just one step here above the crank deal that they would have to turn to talk with an operator and get Susan to plug them in. About $50,000 and they got quotes from two vendors and that will be on Council's agenda coming up very soon. City Manager Hooper then commented on the Pension Plans. They are really out of control. They have heard him say it and they heard him whining about it. Some of the Council sit on the boards for it and they have hired a company called Bogdahn and Associates. Bogdahn is now working with Principal. They have met with all of our pension boards, getting the facts. Their next step is to come in and tell them, smart fiscal advice over what to do. Do they open the plans? Do they close the plans? Do they buy them out? How do they get out of this mess? For years they have had a closed plan. It's 42% of anybody's salary in the closed plan and the rest of them Police, Fire and so forth, are escalating and going up. City Manager Hooper stated they started the year talking about going into bi-weekly pay. They negotiated some of the union contracts that let them do that. They had the non-union employees talk. It is difficult to try to make that conversion. He backed off of that and now they have a pay system that pays them through Saturday. They turn in their time card on Monday of whatever they worked for Saturday and if they are signed up for direct deposit with electronics with the bank, they get their money on Thursday. If they get a paper check, they get their money on Friday. They turn in their time cards on Monday by Thursday or Friday depending on which method they use that's working. It's working well. They went through that transition last month. Nobody beat him up. He didn't think Council got a lot of calls on it. He thinks they did early when there was some misunderstanding but it's been through. Debby, Jon and Donna have done a very good job coordinating. They had some with the union but they are through that. The next step. They process that manually now. The paperwork comes in and it is all typed in by Page 39 of 39 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 computer on Monday. They would like to go out this year and get price quotes of what it costs to hire a company that they turn in electronically, those hours. They come back with either deposit slips where they made them into the bank or they print out checks. They are going to be asking Council to authorize them to do an RFP just to see what it costs. He thinks it's a $50,000 a year deal. If that's way off then they won't want to do it. If it's that price that will keep them from having to expand either the Payroll or Finance Department any time soon. Mayor Thomas asked Ms. Sigler how the new program was working. When he talked to her he was amazed. They were turning in their timesheets that morning and she was printing out checks that afternoon. He couldn't believe it. He has never worked for any place like that. He asked Personnel Director Debby Sigler if it was working better for her. Personnel Director Sigler stated this was the first week that they were at Sunday through Saturday. They staggered into it and now they are at the full week each week and Jon's Department's share of it and their share of it went very smoothly. Mayor Thomas stated it's got to be better than what they were going through before. That was amazing to him. City Manager Hooper stated what they did was just extend that five day pay period to a seven day, eight day, nine day and it just grew so after the month of January which had some holidays in it anyway, they were able to get to that point so now they are on the same kind of cycle. They just get their check after a reasonable day for these folks to process it. City Manager Hooper then commented on the role of City Attorney. They had a lot of discussion of that. He thinks going into next year's budget or sooner if they wish, they are going to have to tell him if that's what they want to do. He and Paralegal Robin Matusick looked back and looked at some old invoices from when Nikki Clayton was here as City Attorney. They decided to no longer have in essence a permanent part time employee and they went to Foley and Lardner. That saved about $80,000 a year in cost. They looked at 2005 and what they paid Foley and Lardner was $66,000 in which the development community because of Page 40 of 40 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 reimbursements of their plats, their legal contracts that Foley and Lardner reviews, they were reimbursed $42,000 so in 2005 they were paying $24,000 a year to have the Attorney on call as needed. If they are interested in having him there full time that number is going to go up. It would probably go close to $150,000 to $200,000 a year. They could do that. They could have it as they do now with more input. In other words, designate certain meetings that they wanted him here for. As it works currently Paralegal Matusick does the legal work for the City as far as the ordinances and resolutions, they talk. It is sent to him, he reviews it and then he is there as they need him. If they wanted to talk about it now, they could. If they wanted to think about it some, if they wanted to get into the budget process but that's a ticket and it's going to cost them somewhere around $120,000 to $200,000 more then it's costing them today. Councilman vincenzi wanted to see more participation. didn't think it was going to cost that much and asked Manager Hooper if he was talking full time. He City City Manager Hooper informed him he was talking every Council meeting. Paul is not going to just show up and sit there and give them advice. He is going to want to digest a tremendous amount. The one case they are working on now on the condominiums, he has asked just what the Mayor asked for. Every transcript, everything that's written or said he is going to digest that at $225 per hour. He was not saying they shouldn't. If he was going to sit there and give them a legal opinion then he has got to be a lot more involved and that includes some of his time. He travels over here. He thinks there is a reduction in time and that he was not going to charge them the full amount but they can get a quote from him to attend every meeting and tell them his estimate of what that would be. Councilwoman Rogers asked how often he updates his contract with the City. City Manager Hooper stated that he does an annual update. What they have done in the past is they have professionals under contract. They advertise about every three to four years for their engineers, their surveyors and their auditors. They did that last year for all of those. They advertised for engineers, surveyors and auditors. The Attorney was hired in 2001 and since then there has been two or three rate adjustments and he usually does a CPI number so he's been there that long and either a Page 41 of 41 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 slight annual or every other year annual. Part of what's changed is they had Scott Cookson who is an attorney with Foley and Lardner but a junior attorney to Paul, when Scott left Paul has taken over and runs most of it and Paul's rates are just more expensive then they had with Scott Cookson. Councilwoman Rogers stated so Paul is now at $225. She was recalling that the timing of when they signed him on was February of 2000 and she believed the rate was $210 an hour. So at $225, six years later, that's not bad at all. Councilwoman Lichter wanted to talk about not having, yet using more. She doesn't think they need a City Attorney to sit in City Hall. There are many matters taking up an office space, getting paid as a full time employee. She thinks there are certain issues that come up in a year that they might want the Attorney to come. That decision can be made certainly during terms of writing codes. He gave them some good ideas, that kind of things, changing Land Development. She doesn't think they need him there all the time. She liked very much his offer of hearing from them at any time but she thinks there should be some rules and regulations with that. In other words, they did use to do that a little more but they put it through Robin so she knew what kind of issue it was. If she couldn't get an answer then they would call and she liked his ideas saying the pros and cons so she sees a little more use of him in times of change. Sometimes things are going just like that and they don't need him. They do have an attorney present at every Code Enforcement meeting and sometimes they act in that type of capacity of more legal. She thinks at that time it wouldn't hurt to have him or someone else they may decide to hire. It may be a junior that may serve the purpose very well also and save a little money that way. Councilwoman Rogers stated but the problem is look what just happened with the condos and that vote. If an attorney would have been sitting there during that meeting, he would have advised them that there was a motion to approve it and it was denied and that they needed to do a motion to not approve it. Now they have to revisit that again. Councilwoman Rhodes stated she didn't think he necessarily would have done that because that was brought up by their Page 42 of 42 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 attorney and she didn't think our attorney would have said anything. Councilwoman Rogers felt if he then why would they want him. just as sharp as Mr. Storch. couldn't have caught that They want an attorney that's City Manager Hooper stated they have that. They have a very good Attorney. Part of it when Mr. Rosenthal talked in the orientation for the two new, if they are after input on how to do something, how to make a motion to deny it. He has described and he encouraged that for them or for him to talk to City Manager Hooper. They have got to say what they want to do so they can get some input in some of that. If he is caught off guard of not knowing what Council wants him to do, he can't sit in one of those seats and be thinking of everything, no matter who they are. Some of that is input that's there. He endorsed the fact that if they want him there full time, they should do that. If they are thinking ahead and that's part of why they have two readings, they can do anything at the first reading and nothing is permanent. Say at the first reading he was wanted there for the second reading and they could have him give them time to interact with something. Their first reading nothing counts. All they really do at the first reading is move to a second reading. At the first reading, it's in front of them. They can say this is going to be sticky and they have got issues and by the time it gets to the final, they want some advice. They get to the second reading and they are still not sure, they are not sure that they have got either him giving them answers, Robin giving them answers. All they have got to do is continue it and postpone it so Council controls that. That's in their hands to do and they can do that in any format that they want to do. As they move closer to budget they have got to tell him. He was going to be here for their next meeting, not this coming Monday but the meeting in which there will be a rehear of that particular issue. Monday they were going to be asked do they want to rehear it so that they can go through the first reading again, giving them the option to deny it, approve it, continue it, several options that they have. He will be here for that but this Monday night is just to schedule it. All it is Council is telling staff to advertise it. Councilwoman Rogers stated they don't need a full time Attorney here but just one to be present at the meetings Page 43 of 43 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 and then she would think if it's on average a two or three hour meeting that he would take perhaps that much time at least to prepare and do any research and then he is having to have some fortitude to what he thinks their questions are going to be. She doesn't think it would cost $150,000 to $200,000. There are some months that they only have one meeting so perhaps he needs to give them a proposal. City Manager Hooper asked if Council wanted him to ask him for a proposal to cover all Council meetings. Councilman Vincenzi stated have it a range of options. Ask him for a proposal for all. Councilwoman Rhodes stated that is the proposal. They already have the contract with him. If he sits there it costs them $225 an hour. Councilman vincenzi suggested City Manager Hooper get a proposal from him estimating what he would need in addition to Council meeting hours. Councilwoman Lichter didn't think they needed him for a whole meeting. When they start sometimes at seven and go home at eleven, there are parts of that meeting that involve very legal things. There are parts that are grants or other types of reports from people and he is going to sit there through audience participation. She thinks there are just certain times they need him. Councilwoman Rogers stated so designating them. Designate at certain meetings which ones they want him to come to. City Manager Hooper informed her that is where they are at now. Councilwoman Rogers stated but if they deny something at the first reading, it won't come to them for a second reading so why not end it right then and there. City Manager Hooper informed her that was part of the strategy is they don't deny at first readings. It is that they get it onto the second. They get their motions, their thoughts, their input. If they went on a tour and went to every other city, they would find that the first reading has no discussion. First reading is just here is the item, has it been advertised properly and then they go on to the second reading. In Edgewater they don't do that. They take each one as a public hearing. They hear a lot of input up front and for the most part, he thinks that's the first he recalled since he has been here that they denied Page 44 of 44 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 something on a first reading so it's usually and customary, not mandatory. Councilwoman Lichter stated that they denied that little skinny thing on u.s. #1 between the trailers and something else; remember the man was in Australia, they denied that one. City Manager Hooper stated he thought that was a Comp Plan Amendment. That was a different gizmo altogether. He asked Council if they wanted to think about it and he would talk to Paul and at their meeting they could tell them some ranges of costs. There was a ten-minute recess at this time so City Clerk Wadsworth could change the tape. The meeting recessed around 8:45 p.m. and reconvened around 8:55 p.m. City Manager Hooper then talked about reclaimed rates and water bills. City Manager Hooper handed out a letter with all the exacts on it. It is going out to all of their reclaimed customers and it's a six-month estimate of if they were billing them the current rates and the amount of consumption, here is what their bill would be. For the next six months they are going to confuse people. They are going to say if they paid a bill, here's what it would be and right now it's a very low number. They go into Spring and Summer it goes up so they tried to go across two different kinds of seasons. He provided them with an example using Tim Sopko's house, Dennis Vincenzi's house and David Ross's house. Councilman Vincenzi stated he didn't mind his information being in there but asked City Manager Hooper if he asked any of the other people. City Manager Hooper stated he didn't ask anybody. It is public. Councilman Vincenzi stated maybe they don't want everyone knowing what they use every month. City Manager Hooper stated it is public record and anybody could ask. Councilman Vincenzi stated he couldn't get anybody else's consumption if he asked for it. City Manager Hooper informed him he could. Councilman Vincenzi stated he could because he sits on Council. City Manager Hooper informed him he could if he was a citizen too. Councilman Vincenzi didn't think that was right. Page 45 of 45 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 City Manager Hooper further stated the purpose was just to show them what would it look like the first month out so if there is confusion in there and they can see big numbers and small numbers. Tim's example right now, they charge $10 so his would go down. Dennis' would go down and David Ross would go down. He is his biggest supporter on the reclaimed fees, others would go up. That's the whole purpose here is to show Council there is a range. This is one month and this is December, which is a low consumption month. After six months they get some feed back, they are going to be back in front of Council saying they guessed right. The rates were where they should be to try to get everybody in the 15,000 to 20,000 range or they guessed wrong they need to go down or they need to go up or whatever they need to do. That's the process they are working under now. Everybody gets a share for a reasonable price of reclaimed but somebody using 50,000 or 60,000 gallons is going to have to pay a penalty, a steep price. Councilwoman Rhodes pointed out one of the examples was four lots so the reclaimed water use is based on one reclaimed water but yet his consumption might be larger. Even though it's not an excessive use, is there some safeguard for that? City Manager Hooper stated what the District does and the District just passed a new rule that says the twice per week watering that they have been following since 1991 or 1992 or 2001 is now mandatory. They are going to ask them as a City and every city to pass an ordinance that says that's it from here on instead of just under emergency conditions. They are wanting the City to enforce those State rules and regulations so that's coming up. They don't look at it that way here. They looked at they've got a large tract of land, what they should be doing in their eyes is having St. Augustine over the same as if it were a single lot and the rest should be in xeriscape or some non thirsty type plant material. Councilwoman Rhodes stated had Dennis' lots been separated and another house had been next to him, then they would have been entitled to reclaimed water as well for that lot so why is it there? She was looking at a lady that has four lots and she was not over watering but yet she had to use a lot of water because she has more property. She Page 46 of 46 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 thinks they need to find some way to take that into consideration. City Manager Hooper stated they are going to have to think through that. Councilwoman Lichter said and she didn't have to plant it all, that's what they were trying to tell them. City Manager Hooper stated that's what they are trying to do but the point is if those four lots were divided into every other Shores lot, they would have twice that entitlement for less money. City Manager Hooper stated if they get calls, if they get complaints and they will, particularly they will starting in March and April's billing cycle because these are going to go up. Somebody that will get a bill that says if they had to pay reclaimed it would have been $200. They are just going to take all this into account over a six-month period. This effort is really to try to let them become knowledgeable. They talked about the education that if it were in effect, here is what they would be paying. Pay attention to how much you use, that's what it's for. Councilwoman Rhodes commented on paying a homeowner's fee in Edgewater Landing. She pays the same amount as a home that may have three or four people and she is only one person. She commented on an individual paying $15 for dues to the Historical Society but a couple can get it for $20. There are some things that just don't work out right. Councilwoman Rhodes stated but you try to change them. Councilwoman Rogers spoke about it being just like property taxes. The people behind her pay $300. She pays $5,500. City Manager Hooper then went on to speak about Environmental Services. This was a list of mostly capital projects. Two wells. He thought they were permitting seven or eight and constructing two this year. About $500,000. They are in the final stages of the consumptive use permit renewal. They should be getting that in the next few months. That is a major hurdle. Design, permitting, construction of their new reclaimed and potable water system for the 17 acres that they purchased. The first part will do the design and permitting this year. Page 47 of 47 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 They are going to be dealing with construction no sooner than next year. Mayor Thomas asked where the two new wells were going. Environmental Services Director Terry Wadsworth informed him informed him it was on the 38 acres the City purchased just north of the immediate Plant site, adjacent to McAllister's property, west of the FEC railroad tracks. City Manager Hooper stated and east of 1-95. City Manager Hooper commented on the completion of the citywide master stormwater plan. Part of what they got an audit criticism for and what they are going to get another one this year for is their Stormwater Fund operates as an Enterprise Fund. It's broke and getting broker so it's subsidized right now because of the stormwater improvements that they have been doing and the canal maintenance by the General Fund so there will be an audit criticism of what they should do is increase rates. They were going to see that back in front of them of an option of increasing stormwater utility rates or just committing a certain dollar amount per year that's a subsidy from the General Fund into that. There is about seven years left on that debt service payment. They have six dollars right now per household. Half of that goes to operation and maintenance and the other half went to pay for the capital improvements in the Shores when those stormwater improvements were there. There is relief around the corner but around the corner is seven years away. So that's part of what they will be talking about. City Manager Hooper then commented on a new stormwater basin that goes from Roberts Road south to Ariel Road. That U.S. 1 corridor of all of those new projects that are coming in, there needs to be a basin study, how that water drains. They had the County in here talking about Shadow Oaks, those two mosquito control canals that they talked about, the ability for those to handle water, how much and how it gets pretreated. That stuff needs to be studied and that's going to be in front of Council on their next agenda. City Manager Hooper stated as they move south, they service water from Roberts Road in essence south. The County services sewer. They have been very fortunate to have a good agreement that instead of duplicating services, they serve water, the County serves sewer. They had a line Page 48 of 48 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 drawn on a map and that line has moved further south as they annexed so this year they will be updating an interlocal agreement. They will be expanding as partners with the County's plant for more sewer capacity because our current plant can't take more and as that area south along the u.s. #1 corridor grows, they need more capacity and that will go to the County's plant. The County takes that water and sends it back to our new reclaimed water facility. City Manager Hooper then spoke about the Air Park Road realignment. If they go out on Air Park, they have got that little dirt strip. It's been there for three years and every year he tells them they are closer. They have a bid out on the street. Every year they talk about it. They opened the bid he thought March 8th. It's about $2.5 million. They have a grant. They have some County money. They have some impact fee credits and then they have future money of Massey donating right-of-way to the County for the widening of Park, that they get to keep County road impact fees. That will be on their agenda coming up late March or early April. That is to take the road, they move it a little bit further to the west and opens up aviation related commercial and industrial activity along the airport. Councilman Vincenzi asked if it was going to be totally paid for between the donated right-of-way and all these other funds. City Manager Hooper informed him yes, between the donated right-of-way, the impact fees, the grants, a bank loan. Remember they borrowed money three years ago thinking this was going to happen soon and then Massey's making up some payments. Mayor Thomas wanted to hear some comments from Council. Councilwoman Lichter had a copy of the Indian River Boulevard plans. She stated this really is a wonderful thing to see. She didn't know if Councilwoman Rogers or the Mayor got that so maybe they should and then there is some questions that came up to her about where they were going to have offices that are now homes and what are the people going to do on the side streets coming out about parking, etc. Jack and his crowd have become landscape artists. It's amazing but there is more to be done. She thinks that he would be very interested. It's a joint Page 49 of 49 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 project for the County and the City is not paying for all of it just a part of it. City Manager Hooper informed her that's a tool that was used for the gateway corridors and it's been adopted so they've got the plans, the Land Development Code that adopted that. Mr. Lear had extra copies so they would get them that to add to their stack. Mayor Thomas asked Councilwoman Lichter if there were any goals she had that they did not cover. Councilwoman Lichter stated just enforcement of water conservation. Something about littering. They used to have an anti-litter committee and then the volunteers got tired of picking up the junk on the highway and the roads. She really wanted, if possible, those signs and a couple of arrests and she really thinks that would do it. Councilwoman Rogers stated they are known as the Hospitality City and what they need to think about vision wise is what do they want the City to represent. Do they want to have the condos? Do they want to have lots of people? Do they want to keep the quality that they have now? They are going to expand upon that with all the new developments coming down with the fact that developers have purchased property and they have annexed into this City, she thinks they need to focus and come up with some ideas. What is it that they want? They are looking at the land use code. They are proposing some changes but what is it that they want. What do they think the citizens of the City would want? The Council are the ones that are making the decision. She drove home from church the other day and she drove through Ormond Beach and she drove through Port Orange and it's sad. It's real sad when she goes down Riverside Drive in Port Orange and she sees the river and she sees the homes being ripped up and she sees the condominiums and then the people that are still in homes now are looking up at those condominiums. Those people aren't happy. What do they want? She thinks they need to focus on that and think about that as they are making these decisions. Councilwoman Rhodes thinks this is a good start. She thinks they have some things to work out obviously. Jon has something to work on now. He had nothing to do so she had to help him out there. She agreed that they need a Page 50 of 50 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 vision for the City. Believe it or not, they've had a vision for a hundred years in this City. Every City Council that's been there had a vision. Since Council changes every four to eight years, it used to be every two years, that vision has changed so it's very difficult to maintain a focus. She could remember when she first sat on Council. Councilwoman Lichter had a picture. It was a drawing of SR 442 and what it was going to look like. That was their vision. It doesn't look like that. She liked the picture but she wasn't sure about how it looks now. But it's getting better all the time. This City has come a long way if they look at it the last ten years. She thinks it's so critical that they maintain a focus on the environment and the water because those are finite resources and it's up to them to make sure they are here for their kids and grandkids. She thinks a lot of times when they talk about land they talk about it like the City owns the land. They don't own the land. It's just like them going to a developer or to a landowner or property owner and saying they liked something three years ago but now they don't like it any more so they want them to change it. She thinks they really need to focus. She thinks if they did the best thing for the environment and the best thing for the clean water and the best thing for a safe community, they are going to have the City that they want to have. That's where her focus will be. Councilman vincenzi thought the meeting was okay, productive, informative. Originally he thought it was going to be a vision-setting type of a meeting. To him it turned into a regular budgetary, this is what they are going to do next year and this is how much it should cost and what they want to prioritize type of meeting, which is okay. It needs to be done but he feels they really need to talk about vision. They need to talk about what the City should look like or what they want it to look like and only then can they go ahead and change codes around effectively to get where they want to go. Right now everybody is doing it piecemeal, development by development that comes in. Every development has a different idea of what they want to do or how they want to do it. He thought it was a good meeting. As far as vision setting it didn't really cut it. As far as what was talked about today, he doesn't want to see taxes go up. He doesn't want to see rates to go up. He would like to see them go down. However there are many projects that need to be accomplished. He thinks the most important one would be a new City Hall so that's over and Page 51 of 51 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 above expansion of services as needed. They haven't talked about that at all as far as how they are going to get a new City Hall or acquire it or build it or where it is going to be. He hoped this would be coming in future meetings soon. That would be a priority for him. No tax increase, hopefully a decrease and to figure out how to accomplish important projects, like City Hall. Mayor Thomas stated that one of his primary objectives was to identify and protect their green infrastructure. He was talking about the ones that are already existing. It doesn't have to be green. They have the Turnbull Hammock water shed. They have Spruce Creek Swamp, Bear Bay, the wetlands, the intracoastal waterway. This would be their green infrastructure. Mayor Thomas stated they needed to protect their water supply. He was glad that they were drilling two new wells away from the other wells so they have Plan A and Plan B in case something catastrophic happens to those or those are sabotaged. They need to protect as much green as possible so that they preserve their excellent air quality. This right here they are taking for granted. Their water they are taking for granted and they need to protect that so that they can have that in the future. Mayor Thomas stated they also needed to reroute or curb as much stormwater runoff as possible that now goes to the Indian River. They need to preserve the historical and friendly family values of Edgewater by striving for a quality of life and not a quantity of life. They need to create an EEOC out there. They need it before two years so they can house City employees and feed them and shelter them in case of a catastrophic disaster so that they can come back in here and assist the people in law enforcement by cutting the trees out of the way and letting them get back in to their homes businesses and securing those. They need to depend on themselves and not on the Federal Government or the State or the County. They need to be self-dependent. They need to build a shared vision of their future and they need to stick with it. City Manager Hooper asked Councilman Vincenzi when he talks about the visioning, he has heard three or four others describe visioning. He asked Councilman Vincenzi to share some of his vision with staff so he could see where he wanted it to go. Page 52 of 52 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 Councilman Vincenzi stated the basic vision is what kind of developments do they want in here. He doesn't think condos have a place in here, high-rise condos he thought although some of the sites up in Daytona and the Marina Grand. Sure that looks majestic and all but he thinks it changes the landscape and changes the appearance of the City. If they are going to go that route, they might as well go whole hog and do all up and down the river that way. But that's not the way Edgewater is so he thinks those type of buildings don't need to be considered. He thinks as long as developers come in here and keep buying property, like that piece that's down there for River Oaks, Edgewater Harbor, he thinks that's going to degrade the image of the City. Councilman Vincenzi referenced height restrictions, lot sizes, protecting the environment, some of the things they talked about are very important. He didn't see it on paper yet, mostly restrictions on development. So they want a vision? He would give them what he thought it should be but he didn't know if that's what everybody else wants. Councilwoman Lichter commented on a vision being a dream. She spoke of things changing and the tax base. The safety of the citizens is her first dream, their lives are important and how they respond in emergencies. That's first and they need money for that. They've got to think how many ways could the City make money and switch that base from the taxpayer. That's important. Councilman Vincenzi stated that's true but that's standard operating procedure. He hasn't seen anything really about vision, what the City should be like in 20 years. A guideline, some kind of picture, some kind of vision so they can form a path to get there. City Manager Hooper stated his struggle on that side of the table was that's not what he does for Council. They tell him the vision they want as a group. His job is to go get it, bring it back, put it to Council a piece at a time and say he was on the right path. He has gotten a lot of input and he hears it and he understands it. They said this wasn't what they wanted and he came back and said give me some hints of what vision is so he could help define what their vision was and what they want to do of what's going to stay green and what's going to stay open. Page 53 of 53 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 Mayor Thomas stated what he gets, City Manager Hooper had five visions up there and he was going to go back and he was going to do that and then he was going to put something on paper on standards and then they would look at that. City Manager Hooper stated he was going to doctor his list up on their next agenda and show them his interpretation of their goals and they are going to look at it and say it's either right or not and here's what they want to add to it and they will do that at a Council meeting and he was describing to them that he hears pretty clear was this is okay and they want to talk of some broader picture and they define what they are looking at. Dennis' complaint that this isn't detailed, he wanted to know what he wanted. Councilman Vincenzi stated that he didn't think that's a topic to discuss at a Council meeting first of all. They can come back with a list of things that they want to do over the next year or two years. They could talk all night about that and debate back and forth. If they really want to get into depth about what people think about anybody's vision up there or City Manager Hooper's vision, they are going to need more than 15 minutes at a Council meeting. City Manager Hooper stated that's what this is about. It's for Council to tell him what they want and at some point they have to adopt a mission statement, a vision statement that this is where they want to be. Councilwoman Lichter stated and the next Council that comes in may keep it or not keep it. She certainly wouldn't have had the vision of Florida Shores if she were here then. Not that there aren't some beautiful homes in there but the way it's constructed with every street leading into SR 442, it's probably the worst planning there could be. Many of the problems, how they had to close the roads up and now what they look like the certain direction roads putting in a project without paved roads, without swales in front of them. All those things wouldn't have been her vision. Maybe it was appropriate back then. Mayor Thomas stated in the whole state. City Manager Hooper that was one of the oldest subdivisions He asked what year it was designed? informed him the mid 1950's. Councilwoman Lichter stated but they've got to deal with it and things change. Their vision today, in twelve years may Page 54 of 54 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 not be the same but they've got to deal with what they've got, what's here now and what they hope for in the future. The vision is like air almost. You do the best you can but things change and they have to adjust to change in life. Civilizations go up as you know and they go down and so do cities. Councilwoman Rogers stated that one other thing that none of them have mentioned in the vision was with the developments, with the population increase, transportation, the roads. The MPO is way behind. They are not even on the list to have anything big come into the City to help them. So when they are talking about vision, they need to talk about that more too. These developers want to come in and they are going to be impacting our roads. She knows they have impact fees and whatnot but they need to look hard and heavy at that. They need to perhaps increase those amounts. Councilwoman Lichter stated they did get some money. Volusia County has recent money for roads. Councilwoman Rogers stated but they are not going to be sending it over to the City. They need to think about that. Just this week in the newspaper, the Mayor of Oak Hill was talking about, she thought the word was infinite possibilities of development in Oak Hill. She kind of thought land was finite but Oak Hill residents are going to be driving through Edgewater, New Smyrna residents are going to be driving through Edgewater to get to Oak Hill, etc. They need to think about that. u.S. #1 is starting to look more like Orange Avenue in downtown Orlando. There are many things that they are doing over there on the roads that are parallel to Orange Avenue and they need to look along those lines. Delaine Street Park. She was sure they were familiar with where that's at. Some of those roads that are in between Delaine and Orange Avenue are dead-ended. Some of those roads are made one way. They've got a resident that lives down off of Evergreen Avenue which is the cut through between u.S. #1 and Riverside for people to get to and from the Bert Fish Medical Center. That road is like a highway. They have these problems and these are real and they need to add that into their vision as well. ADJOURNMENT Mayor Thomas adjourned the workshop. Page 55 of 55 Council Workshop February 6, 2006 Minutes submitted by: Lisa Bloomer Page 56 of 56 Council Workshop February 6, 2006