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07-06-2000CITY OF EDGEWATER CITIZENS LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE REVIEW COMMITTEE JULY 6, 2000 6:00 P.M. COMMUNITY CENTER MINUTES CALL TO ORDER: City Manager Hooper called the meeting to order at 6:00 p.m. in the Community Center. City Manager Hooper informed the Committee they would be talking about the Sunshine Law and the can and can not do's. He informed the Committee they would be electing a Chairman and Vice Chairman at the end of the meeting. They will talk about the schedule and some options on trying to tackle this subject. ROLL CALL: Members present were: Harold P. Card, Ferd Heeb, J. Michael McKay, Dan Holland, Mike Aloise, Dan Sylvester, David Ross, Burt Madewell, Don Sanders, Robert Blum, Paul Jenkins, Andy Anderson, Dan Loeffler, Elizabeth Donahue, Ed Bailot, Richard Jones, Ray Jarrett, and Bill Schroeder. Terri Madewell was excused. Also present were City Manager Kenneth Hooper, Planning Director Lynne Plaskett, and Deputy City Clerk Lisa Bloomer. Deputy City Clerk Lisa Bloomer swore in the new members. GENERAL DISCUSSION: SUNSHINE LAW: City Manager Hooper informed the Committee they can't talk to other members of this board or any other board that will vote on these issues, except at these meetings, which are advertised. They checked with the Supervisor of Elections and the Ethics Commission has no problem with husband and wife serving on same ad hoc committee. The same rules apply, you can't talk at home what will be talked of here. There was further discussion regarding the husband and wife serving on the same board. City Manager Hooper explained the law says whatever they do they do under the Sunshine Law at publicly advertised meetings. The same rules apply to the Planning & Zoning Board, City Council and other appointed and elected boards. 0 Mr. Bailot asked if committees also have to meet in a public meeting. City Manager Hooper stated you can have a meeting that is advertised. He spoke about breaking into subcommittees and discussing subjects. You can have a public meeting but it must be advertised so the public and press can attend. You can only talk about what is presented on agenda. Any outside contact would need to be disclosed. City Manager Hooper commented on financial disclosures which only identify the source of income, not how much. Everybody that handles money with the City does one. Mr. Jenkins stated even if someone raised an issue about a husband and wife, two people wouldn't be able to control vote. It would have to be a majority. City Manager Hooper informed the committee their role is an advisory role. It is going back through Planning & Zoning to the City Council. If there is an issue, it would probably be at that level. City Manager Hooper informed the Committee they will be discussing issues and probably meet as they are tonight and either have speakers or subjects. Mr. Jenkins feels a financial disclosure is heavy for this kind of Committee. He has been on School Board Committees and they have never signed anything or financial disclosures. City . Manager Hooper stated they read the law clearly. The committee is a subcomittee of the Planning & Zoning Board. They will be dealing with land use and zoning decisions. Mr. Holland asked if it is public record. City Manager Hooper informed him yes. Mr. Holland feels they are not exactly directly involved with Planning & Zoning. They are merely a subcomittee to bring the opinions and feelings of citizens. There was further discussion regarding whether or not it is necessary to file the financial disclosure forms. Mr. Jenkins asked if their recommendations are going to be going to the City Council, not just Planning & Zoning. City Manager Hooper thought it was going back to Planning & Zoning who will comment and then it will go back to Council. Mr. Ross thought it was going directly to Council. Mr. Card stated it was his understanding that they are an ad hoc committee of the Council and they would not be making recommendations to anyone but the Council. City Manager Hooper agreed to find out. Mr. Holland feels they need to get these things clear at their first meeting. Mr. Jenkins stated if this is going back to Planning & Zoning he is not interested in wasting his time. Ms. Plaskett asked the Committee to state their names when they are speaking. There will be a different secretary at the rest of meetings. Page -2- Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. July 6, 2000 City Manager Hooper stated what he is hearing is that the Committee would much rather make their report back to the City Council rather than to Planning & Zoning. He will bring that up with Council and have them direct which way they would prefer that to go. Ms. Ross read from the notification of June 20 from City Clerk Susan Wadsworth. The Council has asked that recommendations be presented to them no later than December 18, 2000. He was present at the meeting where they decided to have the Committee. He believes the motion was it would be an ad hoc committee appointed and would report back to Council. City Manager Hooper agreed to get that clarification at the Council meeting on July 10 He explained the process to adopt LDC goes through Planning & Zoning. The Code itself is being adopted. The second reading is coming up. They are going to catch up with amendment to add this to it. The process normally to amend the LDC would take it back through Planning & Zoning to City Council. Mr. Heeb stated as far as he is concerned it can go back to Planning & Zoning. The key is that the recommendations that this Committee makes be presented to Council in tact. Planning & Zoning can attach anything they want to and make any kind of comments or rebuttal to their recommendations. He- thinks what they really want is the recommendations-of theCommittee to be presented to Council in tact. Mr. Ross feels if this committee can make recommendations only to Planning & Zoning that they be presented verbatim as recommended 'ftw or else not considered by Planning & Zoning. He would agree with that. This has not been his experience. Ever since he has seen, they take the recommendations and do with them as they please. Mr. Card stated he understands Planning & Zoning has conducted a number of meetings previous to this, at which point they came forward with a recommendation. That recommendation was found lacking for one reason or another by the City Council at the point of which they turned it back to an ad hoc committee. His initial thought is that this is an ad hoc committee of the Council. It was appointed by the Council to address these questions. He feels that should be the extent in which they operate. City Manager Hooper agreed to take this back to Council for clarification. He informed the Committee that Councilman Vincenzi was present. Mr. Jones agreed. He asked what wording will be used to present this to Council. City Manager Hooper stated he thinks it will be in the final format. When it goes back, he would like it to be inserts to the book of the modifications without anyone else's version of what they meant. Page -3- Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. July 6, 2000 City Manager Hooper stated if this goes back to Planning & Zoning, rest assured, the recommendations will go back in tact. Planning & Zoning if they have comments, will be shown but that won't alter this Committee's recommendations. The same thing with staff. Council will hear what he thinks too. Mr. Jones asked if the language will be done in ordinance form. City Manager Hooper informed him we can do that. They can certainly get that done easy. City Manager Hooper stated at their final meetings, they will go over exact language very carefully so they don't have any problems associated with that. Mr. Card questioned what resources are available to them as a Committee from the City. City Manager Hooper informed the ° Committee he will be at all or most of the meetings unless he has another commitment. Lynne will be here about on the same basis. They will have City staff that needs to be here at their request such as the Building Official or Code Enforcement for input. He thought about bringing in adjacent cities that have already wrestled with this. Lynne has put together a summary of what other local jurisdictions do. The League of Cities, Association of Counties, has a model code. They can get copies of sections that relate to that but it is fairly generic. Staff is open to hear what the Committee wants. Mr. Card asked if they should so desire and need assistance of a City Attorney, would one be made available to them. City Manager Hooper stated yes without a doubt. Scott Cookson, City Attorney, who is a contract employee, is-available on call. He will be attending this Monday's meeting. Mr. Card asked if he is the attorney that routinely attends the Code Enforcement Board. City Manager Hooper stated no, that deals strictly with code. He has talked to Mr. Nowell and his position is he doesn't want to be involved in writing the laws. He has to work with Code Enforcement over enforcement. Mr. Card stated Mr. Nowell's only desire is that it will be enforceable. Mr. Sylvester asked about the reproduction of material and if the City will be responsible for duplicating it and distributing it. City Manager Hooper stated Lisa is pinch hitting tonight. Pat will normally be here and she works in the Planning Dept. They will take care of the agenda preparation. They will get everyone a binder. It will be the cities role to get the information they will need. City Manager Hooper spoke about the schedule and the tasks. City Council was talking about a six month or so window. There hasn't been anything defined or any more detail than that. He would like to look at six months. The City Council would like progress reports. He would like to look at targeting a six month time period. Page -4- Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. July 6, 2000 Mr. Card stated he believes what Council said was that they did )%W not want it to be longer than six months. If they are going to present it to Council they want to present early enough to where they could make changes to it and get it done within the six month time line. He suggested setting a five month time line for themselves and give themselves a month at the end, if it is unacceptable to Council, to get together one more time to discuss it. City Manager Hooper feels a five or six month time frame fits. If it is shorter than six months, that is obviously good. The Land Development Code is scheduled for its second reading Monday night. There will be a glitch committee put together that will find things that aren't what they thought. He hopes the two amendments are done at same time. City Manager Hooper asked for the Committee's thoughts and observations of how they want to tackle this. He spoke about breaking up into individual committees. He was not in favor of that and would like everyone to work on the same subject for awhile, then if they want to they can break up. He would like them to spend some time as a larger group understanding problem and getting the input. He further spoke about people coming in and giving their thoughts as well as County staff or City staff. He spoke about the Committee looking at by -laws. Mr. Holland feels they should break into subcommittees and figure out what problems are and then try to come back and try to hash it out. He feels individual people with individual problems can %r work together and work on a solution and come back and put the three groups back together. He feels each of the three situations will be very peculiar, very different, and very personal. He spoke about phone calls he has received. He feels they should specialize in the beginning and look at each individual problem and come back as a group and hash that out. Mr. Heeb disagreed. He thinks the first thing they need to do is understand the problem. He feels most of the people in the room have a personal agenda. We own boats, trailers, and RV's. He questioned why the Land Development Board and Staff and all these other cities come up with these ordinances that preclude people from having personal property on their real estate. Once they understand why there is a problem, then they can attack it. They have to come up with solution. Mr. Holland stated they are not here to do that. Mr. Heeb stated they are here to understand the problem and come up with a solution. He feels most cities have found a solution by limiting the size of vehicles allowed to be kept on property. He questioned why the general train of thought is to put restrictions on this type of property. Page -5- Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. �/ July 6, 2000 Mr. Holland asked whose general train of thought is it that the I%W City needs to go that direction. Who has said they need to stop all of this? He feels change is good but Mr. Heeb's idea of general may be something other people don't see. Mr. Anderson thinks the most important thing they need to consider is what do most of the people in the City want. He feels a vast majority would like to see the changes. City Manager Hooper stated he wished he could agree. A lot of what you see here is staff derived and directed, which was him and Ms. Plaskett. They got their input from going around to homeowners associations to get input. only people in front of City Council have been the opposite side. People have called Council members privately and said they were for it but they didn't show up. They need to hold public meetings early. People will come in and tell what their opinion is about RV's and boats. He feels right now they are guessing. Two meetings were held in Florida Shores, one in Edgewater Landing and one here trying to get public input. Public input early very good thing. Ms. Donahue agreed with City Manager Hooper. A lot of people out there are leery about coming forward and saying what they think. People call her and say they have got junk next to them and ask her if she can do anything about it. City Manager Hooper stated Council has also received phone calls. He feels there is a mixed sediment. He feels there has been a fairly small number of calls compared to the folks that say they have a very major concern about the restrictions. He feels they need input from all of the citizens. He feels what they are going to wind up doing is getting more input and seeing if they have a compromise to see if what they have done is close. Ms. Donahue feels in some respects the Code is not as strict as some of old ones. City Manager Hooper states he hopes that is not correct. Ms. Donahue stated she was told when she moved here if she had a boat or RV it had to be kept beside your house or in back of your house. According to this you can leave a certain size in a driveway. City Manager Hooper stated that is correct. Mr. Ross asked if she had ever seen it in writing. Ms. Plaskett stated it is in the current Code. Mr. Ross asked when the current code was last written. He was told less than six years ago that you can not keep a motor home in the front or side yard and that it had to keep in rear yard. Ms. Donahue stated she said on the side or behind. City Manager Hooper stated the old code was more specific but it was not enforced. He doesn't know who to blame. This Council wants response to complaints to code enforcement. They have added a second code enforcement officer to do patrols and weekend patrols. He feels they have an effort to try and make a rule that can be lived with that is enforceable. He feels that is where the fear is. They will come out with a new rule to be enforced. Page -6- Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. July 6, 2000 Mr. Jenkins thinks a number of the people complaining about problems next door is smaller than the amount of people who own boats and motor homes. Problems are not coming from boats and motor homes. They are coming from different situations of different people who don't take care of what they have. That is why there was such an uproar. He believes in what Ms. Donahue. Mr. Jenkins stated he knows where there is a boat in the right - of -way trailer broke. The current code covers it, how come no one did anything? Mr. Jenkins stated the Constitution is a document to protect the rights of the minority against the wishes of the majority. He disagreed with Mr. Anderson about the majority issue. City Manager Hooper explained they are looking at how they make neighborhoods more compatible for themselves and neighbors and how you can enjoy your own property rights without infringing on someone else. Mr. Loeffler stated his main concern is when they do come up with what they are going to go by, every lot is different and not every situation is going to be the same. He feels they will have to include exemptions or exceptions. A corner lot can be seen from two streets: Some people have no back yards and big front yards or vice versa. City Manager Hooper explained they have some boats you wouldn't want next to your house and some that wouldn't bother you. It is hard to put in writing rules that make someone's personal efforts to keep their place looking good and something you can enforce. Mr. Holland asked again about the homeowners meetings. City Manager Hooper informed him there were two at Florida Shores, one at Edgewater Landing and general ones held here. Mr. McKay spoke of people calling them. In light of the Sunshine Law issue, he asked how they should treat those calls. He asked if they should tell the people to come in and listen and learn or if it would be proper for them to share the information with them. City Manager Hooper stated that is proper. If someone is not on the Committee, that is part of their role but they should encourage them to come here. The only Sunshine prohibitions is they can't talk to anyone on the Committee but they can get public input from anyone else. They also can not have someone pass on information from one board member to another. He is allowed to meet with other Councilmembers but he can't tell what the other Councilmembers think. Mr. Sanders asked if they could each get a copy of the old codes. City Manager Hooper stated they would be getting the old and the new. They already have a summary. First they wanted to find out where they wanted to start and get the Committee the correct information from the beginning. He informed the Committee he was going to go around the room and then open it up to the public. Then he will turn it over to elect Chairman. Page -8- L Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. July 6, 2000 Mr. Card feels there are a number of questions they need answered. What was done originally? When and where the meetings were held? He was concerned with how can they get people together. The problem they have is not just apathy but they have certain groups of people who are active in certain areas who will move and be heard and they are not getting opinions from other people. What can they do with Shorelines? The possibility of this and what kind of time frames are they involved with. What can they do about people who won't be back until October or November who have RV's or boats here. They are going to come back to a surprise if they don't give them an opportunity. One of the problems he ran into was the fact that it costs money for him to be able to get information from the Bureau of Motor Vehicles as a private citizen. He assumed City Manager could get ° © information for them without cost to them personally. He would like to know how -mangy RVgs and boat trailers there are in this City. He feels they fay have a very large percentage of population early on that they want to deal with. He would like to be able to get people's opinion in regard to this. He knows everybody, almost, has had an obvious vested interest of some sort. They have to put that behind them for a while and find out what the facts are. $. City Manager Hooper informed the Committee The ShoreLines is available. It has been used in the past for surveys. They also have access to the water bills. The ShoreLines has returned mail. They need a month lead time and then staff needs a month to get it out. Mr. Card asked when the next deadline is. City Manager Hooper stated if they had to they could move it up. Mr. Card doesn't feel the Board could agree on what they want questions on. They are going to need a month to know what they really want to know. He asked the Committee to keep in mind that if each one of them spend only five minutes talking a night, they are going to spend two hours talking. City Manager Hooper stated he hopes the new chairman will be able to run the meetings in an efficient manner. Mr. Heeb feels they need to be careful they don't study the problem to death. It sounds like five or six months is a long time but it's not. He feels when they are finished, the central issue is going to be how to deal with the irresponsible property owner. A responsible boat owner takes care of his property and works with neighbors. How are they going to allow people to have trailers, RV's, and boat trailers on their property and still be able to deal with people who do that irresponsibly. Page -7- Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. July 6, 2000 Mr. McKay believes when it comes time to addressing those issues, 'fi you get into public health, safety and welfare. They have to examine closely the issues of weeds growing around a trailer that hasn't been moved. He feels aesthetics lead into property value issues and they need to get into public health, safety and welfare and not write an ordinance that unfairly impacts people with RV's and boats. He feels everyone has an agenda. They have to look past that and try to come up with something that is reasonable. They need to put their personal interests to the side. Mr. Holland feels the problem from the beginning has been enforcing those people who leave derelict junk laying around. He doesn't feel operational equipment that people take care of is that much of a problem. He feels it will all come back to the junk. He doesn't think it will be as hard a road as everyone thinks it is. Mr. Aloise agreed with values. He asked how many people on committee are for the changes and how many are against them. He feels that is what they need to hear. Some people are against the new proposed codes and some are for the codes: He is assuming they are all against them due to their personal agenda. He feels they need to get people for it and get their perspective. City Manager Hooper feels they have a mixed committee. Mr. Aloise stated they are not going to please %W everybody and they may not even get pleased themselves. Mr. Sylvester feels there are safety issues they need to consider. He is concerned more about identifying all the tasks they have to accomplish. He hopes he can put his personal agenda aside to answer the questions property. Mr. Ross thinks one of main issues they will address is are they as a Committee going to wind up saying this is a negotiation and let's discuss the issues as if they were negotiating or is this in fact a set of issues that should not be before Council because this community is a recreational type community. They do need to clean up trash. Those are simple issues to address as compared to where someone can park their boat. He feels this will be a tough thing for committee to address even before they gather data. He is not sure that is their job. He thinks their job is to make a recommendation based on their expertise, knowledge and feelings. They are not elected to serve this community. Why was there no objection at these other public hearings? He questioned if they surveyed 10,000 people and told them there would be a public meeting about the Land Development Code, how many people would show up. He feels the way it is presented to public, the public at large do not recognize what it means when it says there is a meeting regarding the new Land Development Code. He feels this is one of the reasons they didn't have people at hearings. Page -9- �► Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. July 6, 2000 Mr. Madewell agreed with junk and safety issues. City Manager 1 %, Hooper thinks whether or not they are negotiating is a very valid point. His own personal opinion is without a doubt, they are negotiating. They are going to have to come out of this Committee with a recommendation and they will have some thresholds. They will have to struggle and come up with limitations. If they say they don't want any rules, he guaranteed that wouldn't work. They will have to come up with something. Mr. Madewell stated he was born and raised in'Port Orange and he moved away because he didn't like what they did with restrictions. He doesn't care what Port Orange and Ormond does. Yeah he has a personal agenda. He doesn't think they have to use them to tell us what we want to do in our City. City Manager Hooper stated they are just showing the Committee what others do. They are going to be forced to look at some type of restrictions. Ms. Plaskett urged the Committee to think big picture, long term. When you make decisions, think outside of where you. Florida Shores is a very large subdivision, however this will be a c A-y- wide ordinance. City Manager Hooper informed the Committee in the future they will not be having more subdivisions like Florida Shores with this Code. There will be more controlled subdivisions. One of the requirements is a mandatory homeowners association. He 1%W stated he didn't mean to offend anyone in Florida Shores. Mr. Sanders concerned with property values and way neighbors yards look. He doesn't like restrictions but knows there has to be restrictions. He feels anyone that owns a vehicle, it should be mandatory that they must be registered and licensed. He feels this would stop a lot of the junk they are talking about. He understands there will have to be restrictions and they have to look at it in a safety way and public health way. This seems to be best ammunition to fight back with. He doesn't think a boat or RV should be parked by the road. He also doesn't feel they are fighting as big a battle as they think they are. Mr. Blum agreed with Mr. Heeb on the trash and things that should be registered. There are a lot of boats in his neighborhood. He also has a 30' travel trailer that won't go in his back yard. He feels the junk should go. Mr. Jenkins stated he is not sure they need to hold special meetings to get public input. The Council already went through the process somewhat. He feels they should encourage the public to come and have a public session where they speak to them about specific concerns and problems. General comments are about trashiness and not what is the specific problem. Page -10- %NO Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. July 6, 2000 Mr. Jenkins would like to see a record of the comments and the ° %W specific problems from the other meetings, such as the homeowners association meetings. He would like to know if they are general comments or specific. He would like to consider the specific comments. He believes they could develop rules that cover health and safety but still allow them without being too restrictive to keep what they want. A lot of the problems don't deal with boats, RV's, and tents. Besides Florida Shores, the Flagler Avenue area has small lots and are limited on what they can do with their things. He has seen a lot of tents because these homes have no garages. They are going to have to try and solve the problems for them too. The new developments will still have to come under this code and meet the city rules. As far as the Sunshine issue, they can still talk to each other about other things. He would like to see information wise because of the canopy issue, what the requirements are on sheds, as far as tie downs. Ms. Plaskett explained currently if a shed is 120 square feet or less there are different requirements than if it is a 120 feet or more. Mr. Jenkins would like both. He thinks if they can get the information on what the specific problems are and then at their next meeting they could discuss those problems and the issues of particular problems. He knows of a motor home that hangs into right of way one or two feet but he can't get it in his side yard or his back yard. They have to come up with a possible solution for that person. He feels they also need to look at the unique problems. Mr. Anderson would like to see this community cleaned up. There are a lot of nice areas in Edgewater but also grubby ones. The grub is comprised of trashy looking trailers and boats. He had a trailer and rented a place on Hibiscus. Now, they will rent a spot 12' wide and 26 1 h feet long for $26 per month. He thinks if you can afford a $100,000 motor home you can afford $50 per month. A lot of people that own vehicles can well afford to have them in places out of view. He is not against boats and RV's. He would like to see some kind of organized way in which they are kept. His brother -in -law had trailer for a long time and he lives in a small west coast Florida community where they are not allowed to have RV's. He lives in a middle class neighborhood that is a very neat neighborhood. They all rent spaces and have places to put their trailers and RV's. He feels when you have order, you have organization. They would like to try to make neighborhood neater. He doesn't want to see the City look like Mims or Oak Hill and that is where they are headed if they don't put these laws in so there is some conformity as to what is happening in the City with RV's. Page -11- *00 Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. July 6, 2000 City Manager Hooper explained that is the purpose of the Committee, to wind up with some compromises. Mr. Anderson feels the people who spoke out have a special interest. He thinks this may have had a lot to do with them being vocal, wanting to keep what they have. RV owners are stigmatized to an extent because there are a lot that are not kept nice and not parked correctly. There are so many people that don't keep them up and don't maintain them. He was thinking about a referendum on the November ballot so everyone could vote and make their decisions known. City Manager Hooper stated there is a possibility, a fairly extreme possibility. He would much rather go through this process. It is extremely difficult to do language drafting of a referendum when you are limited to so many words. Mr. Loeffler commented on storage. He spoke of property being vandalized in storage. He knows the City doesn't have a place for storage. He stated most things changed are grand- fathered in. Will they take this into consideration? City Manager Hooper feels this is something the Committee needs to look at. That is a compromise that isn't in the new proposal but they can look at. If you have a boat or R.V. of a certain size you can keep it if you already have it but you can't buy a new one. Mr. Loeffler feels there are so many codes on the books now that aren't being enforced. He feels junk is a safety and health issue. He bought his house last August and has spent a great deal of money there. There are exceptions to every rule they need to take into consideration such as the elderly and people with low income. Ms. Donahue stated there are organizations willing to help people that are elderly or have a low income. She brought up the topic of canopies. She has seen what can happen with a canopy in a storm. She watched a canopy come out of ground during Floyd and do cartwheels. She feels they have to have some kind of situation where they have to be firm enough and not go on someone else's property. She has seen boats and R.V.'s bigger than people's lots. She feels they need to do something about homes with a lot of vehicles that look like a look like a dealership. City Manager Hooper informed her that is part of what they are going to wrestle with such as numbers, sizes and so forth. Mr. Bailot stated he is new to this. Everything he has thought of has been said. He is here to help anyone who needs help. He has sent away for information. Very seldom that people by 24' foot motor homes. He can't afford to put in a lot and store it. He has lived in Florida Shores for 11 years and his R.V. cost more than his house. He did everything according to code at the time he moved in. He wasn't told about the length by his real estate broker. He doesn't see anything wrong with them as long as they are kept up. We already have the standards on how high grass should be and they shouldn't have unlicensed vehicles on the lot. When that is enforced first, then they could see what is left. Page -12- � Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. July 6, 2000 Mr. Jones stated he was looking at the comparison chart and he 1 %1W feels Edgewater is liberal compared to our neighbors. Oak Hill is much more restricted. He didn't understand what was wrong with the old ordinance. Only problem he saw was the size limit being out of date. It was vague and allowed Code Enforcement to make own their interpretations. He thinks they should have a survey by using the City newsletter. He feels with a group this large it takes a lot of time to get business done. He thinks they should divide the group into three major groups with a liaison between the groups because what effects one, effects the other. Existing ordinance was not too bad other than it was a little vague. If they have a law, why don't they enforce it. He is in favor of these things and would like to see this. Mr. Jarrett stated everybody said everything to be said. He stated they are probably all in compliance or wouldn't be here. He feels the first question they need to ask is if there should be any guidelines and let that be their starting point. There are some codes that are not being enforced and kind of difficult such as tractor trailers parked in residential areas. They are hard to enforce. He feels if they have a public meeting, it should not be at one of their meetings. It should be one just. for the people to come and they collect the data they have to say with no rebuttal or confrontation. He suggested a first come, first serve basis with a time limit. As far as people taking their the boats and RV's to a parking lot, if they agree he thinks he will open one. Mr. Schroeder stated he is here because he saw a newspaper article. He has no boats, no trailers, no nothing. City Manager Hooper feels they have a well rounded committee. Mr. Schroeder stated it sounds different than what the paper says. City Manager Hooper stated it always does. City Manager Hooper asked Councilman Vincenzi and Councilman Brown if they had anything they wanted to add. He thought they were concerned with having a Committee that is balanced. Councilman Vincenzi mentioned public opinion. He feels when you put an announcement in the paper, 90% of the people don't realize what you are talking about. If you are going to seek public input you have to seek it from everybody. Councilman Brown was very appreciative of the Committee for trying to do this. It is not going to be easy. He has a lot of faith that they will come up with some good rules and regulations they can live with. They are the people the Council represents and he is proud to see them get together. He was impressed with what was being said. He is behind them. Page -13- Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. %a/ July 6, 2000 George Ewing `, Committee do raised their people that `r asked to see by show of hands which members of the not have an RV, boat or trailer. Three members hands. City Manager Hooper stated you still have own a boat that is not oversized. Joyce Sanders would like to see that people's yards are cleaned up. The junk and trash is incredible. It is getting to a point where animals are getting out of hand. That is how bad it is getting. If they want to live in a clean community, that is where they should start. She feels people that own vehicles, either they are registered or towed away. City Manager Hooper stated what she is describing is what the City Council has directed. They are under way now of putting in effect a Land Development Code that helps with the clean up that is enforceable. They have had codes that are vague and difficult to enforce. Staff has been added to Code Enforcement that will work split shifts and work weekends. It is now under the Police Department so it has added more clout. Councilman Vincenzi spoke about enforcement of the codes. After they get everything settled and the new codes are in effect, he would insist upon good enforcement. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN & VICE CHAIRMAN City Manager Hooper asked for nominations. He explained the process they would follow. Mr. Sanders nominated Mr. Ross as Chairman. Mr. Sylvester nominated Mr. Heeb. Mr. Jenkins nominated Mr. Card. Ms. Donahue nominated Mr. Holland. Mr. Jones made a motion to close the nominations, second by Mr. Schroeder. The motion CARRIED 18 -0. The following is the results of the vote for Chairman: Mr. Card - Mr. Ross Mr. Heeb - Mr. Card Mr. McKay - Mr. Ross Mr. Holland - Mr. Ross Mr. Aloise - Mr. Ross Mr. Sylvester - Mr. Heeb Mr. Ross - Mr. Holland Mr. Madewell - Mr. Heeb Mr. Sanders - Mr. Ross Mr. Blum - Mr. Heeb Mr. Jenkins - Mr. Card Mr. Anderson - Mr. Heeb Page -14- Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. July 6, 2000 Mr. I%W Ms. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Loeffler Donahue Bailot - Jones - Jarrett Schroede Mr. Card Mr. Holland Mr. Card Mr. Card Mr. Ross r - Mr. Card There was a tie between Mr. Ross and Mr. Card. the results of the second vote: Mr. Schroeder - Mr. Card Mr. Jarrett - Mr. Ross Mr. Jones - Mr. Card Mr. Bailot - Mr. Card Mr. Donahue - Mr. Card Mr. Loeffler - Mr. Card Mr. Anderson - Mr. Card Mr. Jenkins - Mr. Card Mr. Blum - Mr. Card Mr. Sanders - Mr. Ross Mr. Madewell - Mr. Card Mr. Ross - Mr. Card Mr. Sylvester - Mr. Ross Mr. Aloise - Mr. Ross Mr. Holland - Mr. Ross Mr. McKay Mr. Ross Mr. Heeb - Mr. Card Mr. Card - Mr. Ross Mr. Card was named Chairman. The following is Mr. Heeb stated he presumes Mr. Ross is the Vice Chairman. City Manager Hooper informed him they also have to have an election for that. Mr. Card asked for nominations for Vice Chairman. Mr. Heeb made a motion to appoint Mr. Ross as Vice Chairman by acclamation, second 18 -0. Mr. Ross was elected as Vice Chairman by acclamation. Mr. Card suggested the Committee set the calendar and determine when they will have the next meeting and the agenda for the next meeting. Mr. Card suggested they not meet at 6:00 p.m. He knows it is difficult for people coming from work. He suggested they hold the meetings to a reasonable length of time and perhaps meet every two weeks until they get things rolling. He entertained a motion from floor with regard to their meetings. Page -15- `e Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. July 6, 2000 Mr. Holland made a motion to hold the meeting every other Thursday at 7 p.m., second by Mr. Jarrett. Mr. Ross commented on vacation season being before us. He knows two of them will not be there. They will be starting July 20 He asked if there was anyone other than himself that has a problem with that. Mr. Jenkins had a problem with Thursdays at the end of the month. City Manager Hooper stated their meetings would be July 20 August 3rd, August 17th, August 31 September 14 and 28 Mr. Card stated fortunately they have a large committee. He would expect that they would be able to schedule any specific votes at least four weeks in advance. Perhaps they can find some way of providing absentee voting. City Manager Hooper stated you have to be have to be here to vote. Mr. Ross asked if they could send in a written request or opinion. City Manager Hooper stated they could send their thoughts but it is not a vote. Mr. Heeb asked City Manager Hooper when they will have the new and old code available to members. City Manager Hooper stated they would either mailed or could be picked up. Due to the size, it is easiest to come by and pick them up. Mr. Loeffler asked how long the meetings will last. Mr. Card informed him it depends on how much is on the agenda. They have people that are very strongly motivated on both sides of issue and he thinks they need to get that out and make sure they all feel good about their actions. Mr. Jarrett suggested a two hour limit. Mr. Jarrett made an amendment to include the time to be from 7:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m., second by Mr. Sanders. Mr. Jenkins expressed concern with limiting the time of the meetings, especially first couple. He feels if they set goals they may not be able to accomplish those goals at each meeting. He feels they should aim for a two hour limit but still some flexibility. Mr. Card asked if it would be possible within confines of motion to allow opportunity to amend and waive the limit. Mr. Card asked if they should put it in the motion? Mr. Anderson feels they should have some flex there. He stated they might be in middle of something important. Mr. Card asked if they are confident with the amendment as it stands to waive the requirement. Mr. Ross agreed to a goal for all meetings with a two hour limit but the meetings will be adjourned by a motion carried by vote but that they all understand goals. Mr. Jenkins suggested wording it that the agendas will be written with a 9:00 time frame involved. Mr. Jones feels the meetings will regulate themselves. When you approach time, you could pass it onto next meeting or stay and discuss it. He feels the closing element is wrong and should be self regulated. Page -16- Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. July 6, 2000 Mr. Anderson concurred with a 9:00 p.m goal. Mr. Loeffler also felt they should shoot for 9:00. As long as it is within reason. There was no further discussion. The motion CARRIED by majority. Mr. Card asked for the original motion which was to meet every other Thursday starting July 20 at 7:00 p.m. The motion CARRIED 18 -0. Mr. Jenkins suggested they move the public input portion to the beginning of the meeting so they don't have to wait until the end. That would also give them an opportunity to discuss their comments. Mr. McKay agreed. Mr. Jenkins made a motion to that effect, second by Mr. McKay. Mr. Jarrett asked if they are going to have the public at their meetings. Mr. Card informed him they have, it's an open meeting. Mr. Jenkins feels it would be good public policy to have a public input portion. Mr. McKay wants to hear what they have to say. Mr. Loeffler feels the whole purpose of them being there is to see what the public wants. Mr. Ross asked to include in the motion a five minute per person limit. Mr. McKay seconded. Mr. Jones feels the public discussion should be as each topic comes up. Mr. Card thought that was a great idea. Mr. McKay stated the public may not be able to be notified as to what they are going to be discussing. If people have something on their mind, let them get it off their mind. It shouldn't be dictated by when they decide they are going to talk about it. Mr. Jones suggested printing the agenda. Mr. Ross expressed concern if they open it up. He hopes a lot of people come and they may as this grows. He feels public input should be limited. Mr. Anderson stated judging from who is here tonight, he doesn't think they will be overly concerned about the public attending these meetings. Mr. Jenkins stated his reason for the motion was so someone doesn't have to sit through the whole meeting until they discuss that subject. Maybe they want to give the Committee input to consider in all of their research. Mr. Holland suggested letting them come in and give the information and let them go to work with it. The motion CARRIED by majority Mr. Card asked if they should set a series of tasks for their next meeting. City Manager Hooper stated staff will bring portions of code that deal with issues they are dealing with here from the old and new code and anything else they want for the next meeting. He asked that a list be provided to put together for 20 Page -17- Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. July 6, 2000 ,, Mr. Ross had something to throw out for consideration. He would like to add this to the agenda for serious discussion at the next meeting. Mr. Ross stated he has searched out an attorney who specializes in land use codes and development in New Smyrna. He felt this Committee and /or his personal agenda down the road at some point may best be served by the input of a legal individual unbiased from the standpoint of being for or against RV's, boats, motor homes or what they do in Edgewater. He would like the Committee to consider that they engage him in an advisory position on a retainer basis to perhaps assist them in coming up with a final draft of this code. The attorney's opinion is that it will be a matter of negotiation, that there will have to be give and take, and some points won, some points lost. Mr. Ross doesn't want them to go to Council with a set of suggestions that does not hold legal water. He doesn't want them to depend on Council or staff to make the decision. He would like to see an outside legal source tell them if they are doing the right thing or not. Ms. Donahue asked who would pay for it. Mr. Ross stated this Committee would pay for it. If this Committee doesn't want to pay for it, then there will be other considerations made. Mr. Heeb asked they will have the old and new code available before the next meeting and recommended they take a homework assignment and all of them read both documents. He feels they should all start to think like they were kings and would have to individually solve this problem. Ultimately to get to the conclusion of this issue, they are going to have to have input from all. He feels they need to study the problem and think of how they would solve this problem if they were the only one to make the decision. At some point in time they could bring their thoughts together and start working on them. Mr. Jones asked for the old and new code as soon as possible. City Manager Hooper informed them they would be getting them to them on Monday. They will be getting the sections they are dealing with. Mr. Bailot feels the items they have to read will be whole agenda. Mr. Jenkins feels they should get specific comments and look at those comments as part of agenda to discuss. He feels a lot of the comments will not be in their hands. The problems will not be specifically boat, canopy or RV issues. He feels they need to see this. He would like to see the specifics to narrow it down. He feels a lot of the problems were not enforced under the old code. Mr. Sylvester arrive at decision as to whether they make decisions as a full group or split in groups to be on the next agenda. Page -18- �r Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. July 6, 2000 The items to be on the agenda were discussing the attorney, the homework assignment to go through new and old code, splitting into smaller groups. Mr. Bailot suggested talking about discussing specific comments from other meetings. City Manager Hooper asked if they took any meeting notes. Mr. Fischer stated there were no minutes taken. Presentations were made to the homeowners association and were informational. There was no way of taking notes. City Manager suggested getting Mr. Fischer to summarize what happened at those meetings. Mr. Card stated he mentioned earlier the number of boats, trailers, R.V.'s and large things. City Manager Hooper stated they have that information for Edgewater. It is broken into sizes that don't match the code. These were picked and the State has groupings of boats that do not match these numbers but it will give them a good place to start. He is not sure he has R.V.'s. Mr. Card stated they are registered separately. Mr. Ross asked if they want to at the very first meeting hear from staff where they are coming from and get their input. He would like to hear their opinions up front. He thinks staff knows where they are coming from. Mr. McKay asked if they will also discuss the automobile restoration issue. He suggested getting statistics on how many *4W vehicles are registered in Edgewater that are over 25 years old. Mr. Card stated they have a lengthy meeting planned. Mr. Jones made a motion to close the agenda, second by Mr. McKay. The motion CARRIED 18 -0. Mr. Bailot asked who they contact if they can't make it. City Manager Hooper informed him the Planning office. Mr. Aloise asked about attendance. Is there a required attendance or a minimum attendance. Arbitrarily some attend all meetings, some attend one meeting. City Manager Hooper it is up to the Committee to set the administrative rules. Mr. Ross doesn't know how to handle this but feels if there is an obvious problem of someone not showing up for four or five meetings, he feels they need some avenue to replace that individual. City Manager Hooper informed the Committee they can set their own rules in the beginning. He suggested in order to cast a final vote you must have attended 70% of meetings. This is the easiest instead of replacing. Page -19- Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. July 6, 2000 Mr. Jenkins has a problem with trying to replace someone due to *,, the time it will take to catch them up. Mr. Jenkins suggested if you miss four or more meetings, you don't vote. Mr. Ross made a motion that they set the rule and bring it to a vote as an agenda item at the next meeting, second by Mr. Jarrett. The motion CARRIED 18 -0. ADJOURNMENT There being no further business to discuss, Mr. Ross moved to adjourn. The meeting adjourned at 7:58 p.m. Minutes submitted by: Lisa Bloomer Page -20- Land Dev. Ad Hoc Cmt. %SW July 6, 2000