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09-25-1989 Charter Review Committee Public Meeting Monday, September 25, 1989 7:00 p.m. Edgewater Library Councilwoman Gigi Bennington called to order the public meeting of the Charter Review Committee at 7:00 p.m., Monday, September 25, 1989, in the Edgewater library. Members present were City Manager Elly Johnson, Councilwoman Gigi Bennington, Dominick Fazzone and Mary Martin. City Attorney Jose Alvarez and Jack Hayman were excused. Also present were Susan Wadsworth and Lisa Kruckmeyer, secretaries. Councilwoman Gigi Bennington announced that the purpose of this meeting was for public input on the proposed charter changes. Larry Lanchoney of 110 Lincoln Rd. stated that Section 1.02 doesn't specify whether it is state federal, etc. City Manager Elly Johnson responded by saying that it refers to the federal constitution. Councilwoman Bennington added that a lot of the wording that is used is taken directly from the model charter. Mr. Fazzone discussed the different phases and drafts that the committee prepared for the proposed charter changes. Councilwoman Bennington discussed the history of the charter review committee in reference to the meetings that the committee has held in the past. Mary Martin explained the different information gathered from the model charter and how different sections are handled. Councilwoman Bennington also explained that a meeting was held with the board and input was received. George Ewing of 2923 Royal Palm asked for an explanation about Section 6.07. Mr. Fazzone replied with after a charter is put in effect, the whole article can be thrown away. Mary Martin also responded by saying certain things have to be in legal language and once the amended charter is passed, they can do away with the transition by resolution. Mr. Ewing wanted to know why the LDRA wasn't chartered in the charter. City Manager Johnson responded with the requirements for the LDRA board are set up on a state charter under state statute and the requirements for having it are required by state law and how it is set up. Mr. Ewing also commented that the Land and Development Board should be in there. Councilwoman Bennington explained the taking out unnecessary sections. She also explained that the Merit Board is the only board that appears in the charter now. Mr. Ewing asked if the Merit Board was covered by ordinance. Councilwoman Bennington responded by saying yes, it is, the Merit Board is the only board that went to referendum and the people want it kept in there. Mr. Ewing commented what if we put it in there now wouldn't it be by referendum? City Manager Johnson responded with the Merit Board is not a state statute authorized board, it's a local board authorized with people. The LDRA board is authorized with state statute. There's a difference in the two boards and the authority. You do not have to put in your charter things that are covered in the state statute. Another question asked by Mr. Ewing was how about the number of people you have on the Land and Development Agency for the City of Edgewater. Is that covered by state statute? City Manager Johnson replied he thinks it gives you broad guidelines and the rest is up to the city and is done by ordinance. There is an ordinance setting up the boards and their duties. Louise Martin of 1409 S. Riverside Drive commented saying she thinks basically why the Land and Development Agency is not in the charter is because it has nothing to do with the appointing section. Councilwoman Bennington responded to that comment by saying notice we didn't go into detail to tie down the city with all of the duties and responsibilities on exactly what the city manager can and can't do because we felt from listening to people and from all the information gathered that they didn't want to tie the city down. And have to have a referendum every time they wanted to change a responsibility. Gaylon McClain of 3119 Queen Palm Drive was concerned with the duties of the council and whether or not they would be able to control the City Manager. r "`o He asked what is going to determine it? Councilwoman Bennington responded the people will by who they elect to office. Mr. McClain commented by saying yes but other than that if anything happens you are going to wait two years because it seems to me that with the tentative present situation you get answers. If you don't get answers what can you do? Councilwoman Bennington replied his duties and responsibilities are addressed by ordinance. We wanted something that would last and would allow us to grow without having to be voted on every time we wanted to make a major change in the duties and responsibilities of the city manager. George Ewing questioned Section 3.10. He said two or four years from now you might be in his position sitting at a council meeting not being able to say anything when council meets. Comments should remain at the beginning of the agenda and questions and comments be included at the end of the council meetings. He also said he thought the citizens were for it at the present time. He felt that since they get questions from the press, questions and comments from the citizens of Edgewater were just as important. Mr. Ewing felt the citizens of Edgewater are entitled to answers from some member of the council or the city manager. Councilwoman Bennington told Mr. Ewing that sometimes it is very hard to be hit cold with a question which you need facts verified. Don Bennington of 121 Virginia Street commented that he agreed with what Mr. Ewing said. He said many times he would have liked to have seen the same thing. Councilwoman Bennington agreed with Mr. Bennington and replied she agrees with them having sat in the audience, there is a business that has transpired and you don't know what has happened or why. Mr. Fazzone also agreed with Mr. Ewing. He felt that when a business is passed it doesn't give someone an opportunity at the beginning of the meeting to be able to talk on that particular point that is going to be brought up at the meeting. Mr. Ewing felt that it might be a first reading and the citizens can't say a word. Mr. Fazzone said he would take that into consideration and see what could be done about it. Councilwoman Bennington explained staggered terms. She felt one of the things that they were trying to do is avoid an election every year. She felt that just by moving the election to March and making it a city election just for the citizens of Edgewater, the people wouldn't have to stand in line. That was the reason she was suggesting moving the elections to March. With the two year staggered term there would be another election in November where the whole council would be up one more time. The mayor and the two candidates with the highest number of votes would go for a two year four month term to put them into March. The next greatest would get a one year and four month term. With the two year staggered term after 1992 there would be an election every year. Mary Martin commented that by having it in March and just being a city election there wouldn't be any long lines. Councilwoman Bennington said that there were various ways to determine which council members get the longest term and which ones don't and the decision was that this was the fairest way to do it. Mr. Ewing questioned what happened to the three year term. Councilwoman Bennington replied two options were being given, the two year and the three year staggered terms. Mr. Ewing wanted to know if when Councilwoman Bennington said the most votes, she was talking about general plurality or within a zone. She responded with general. Mr. Ewing felt the person is supposed to represent a zone. But he said he's going to be judged and based on total number of votes rather than what he receives from the zone. Mr. Ewing asked how about if the people in the zone don't like him but he gets in general plurality from the rest of the city? Councilwoman Bennington answered him by saying she feels that every council member . represents the whole city. She feels the way things are working is they call the council person they feel they can talk to the best. They don't just establish by zone. Mary Martin said that's right, now you have people that could win even though they are not particularly favorable within their particular zone. She said to just make sure to get him out the next time. Mr. Ewing felt that there are four councilman and if someone has a problem he is going to call the councilman that is going to listen to him and the one who is probably the most vociferous on council to get done what he wants to get done. The person from your particular zone may not be very forceful and the popular councilman is going to get all the calls. Councilwoman Bennington felt that is happening now. Mr. Ewing feels that going to zones might stop that. Councilwoman Bennington explained to Mr. Ewing that you have a very forceful councilmember that can get things done, and then the zone they represent is going to have more and you're going to start infighting with each other and you don't want to do that. Mr. Ewing told Councilwoman Bennington that in all the states he has ever lived it has been done by zones and you went to your own councilman. Mr. Fazzone told Mr. Ewing that the city council did do it by zones, but the city council did away with that. Councilwoman Bennington said that she felt that the very last thing they need is infighting with the council. It's a popularity contest and she doesn't think that is what it should be because they represent the whole city. Then she went on to explain the three year staggered term. She thought by moving the elections to March they could do away with some of this voter apathy because people would be more in control and therefore turn out to be more involved. The two lowest vote getters serve a two year and four month term. The mayor and the two highest vote getters serve a three year four month term. You'll see that with the three year staggered term you are going to have an election two years in a row and then no election. She asked the citizens of Edgewater how they felt about elections in March. Jeff Lange of 2224 Queen Palm Drive asked if there were presently any elections or anything going on in March. Councilwoman Bennington told him not in this city. Jeff Lange feels that they should stay with November because if your going to do it twice a year, you'll get fewer people. He felt that if you're going to have long lines, you're going to have long lines both times. Councilwoman Bennington explained to Mr. Lange that before you go into the voting booth you usually know who you are going to vote for, you just pull that lever and your in and out, so the lines aren't where you're standing in there half an hour reading everything and trying to decide what should happen in November. Don Bennington commented they have people who could care less about the city. The people who try and go down in March are the people who are concerned, and these are the people who are going to be voting for your city representatives. Councilwoman Bennington said that March was considered too because a lot of people go up north for the summer_ and people from the north come to Florida for the winter but most of the residents are usually back in March. Mr. Ewing wanted to know how she knew that. She answered him that you can usually tell by people wanting their water turned off. Mr. Fazzone asked if there were absentee ballots and Councilwoman Bennington told him there were. Dick Kozlowski of 708 Egret Court wanted to know if this will be a vote strictly for the council situation or will referendums be stuck in there in March? Councilwoman Bennington told him it would be for the council. Mr. Kozlowski wanted to know if it would be strictly? Councilwoman Bennington told him to say strictly for the council, no, if a petition was brought in and the people wanted a referendum, and it was in January, then they could put that on the ballot in March and you could vote on it in March too. She explained that would save the city money because it costs $5,000 every time there is an election. Wally Trickey of 1815 Mango Tree Drive said that he checked with Mrs. Odham and she said it costs $1,159 plus the printing material. Councilwoman Bennington said that Susan had the right amount. City Manager Johnson said that they also have to pay for help, and Mrs. Odham only has the part that is paid to the county for their services. He explained that there are other things the city has to pay for with the election. Councilwoman Bennington further explained the staggered terms. She said the three year staggered term means there will not be an election for a year and then there will be two elections in a row. What they were trying to do was go to a two year staggered term and extend the present council's term four months, but it was decided they wouldn't do that. Bob Garthwaite of 10 Lee Drive asked if the two and three year staggered term was going to be on the ballot. Councilwoman Bennington answered yes, it will be an option. Bob Garthwaite asked if there was any consideration to putting a third option on it to leave it as it is. Councilwoman Bennington told him that was part of the reason for this meeting. Bob Garthwaite felt staggered terms were a great idea if people wanted it but he preferred the two year term rather than the three year term. He felt that a two year term gives a quicker response from the public. Mary Martin responded if a person is elected for a two year term it takes them six months before they really understand what is going on, and the last six months they are already starting to rerun. They are really only working for the city for one year. Mr. Ewing commented if a person is doing a good job he's not going to have any worry about getting elected for another two years. If a person is in there for three years and he does everything wrong and he's not helping the citizens of Edgewater one bit then they're stuck with him for three years. He also wanted to know who thought up putting the three year staggered term as option 1? Mr. Fazzone answered that by saying these two options were not put in order of preference. Mr. Ewing felt that the two year staggered term should be option 1. Councilwoman Bennington said they started looking at two year terms, and with a staggered system, if you have a bad apple and you have a staggered system you have four others sitting up there that can control that bad apple. With the three year term we've got time. If a councilman's got a program he has time to follow through before he has to run again. Mary Martin said they talked about the wording of this and they don't want to make it too restrictive. A gentlemen responded by saying that it doesn't have to be dictatorial, it can certainly be phrased so you have the council to at least bring to a recall process the elimination of somebody who has not worked for it. Mr. Fazzone explained there is an article in the charter about forfeiture laws, and it has been looked over by a legal rule and it has come up that it is all right. Mary Martin thinks it should be checked with the council but it is possible that it might be in the state election laws. In the old charter there was no point in having them because the state law already superseded what they had. Councilwoman Bennington said that they tried to clean it up and get rid of all of the language where the state law was more restricted or superseded anything that is in the charter. City Manager Johnson said there are standards in all state laws the elected officials have to live under, and also public officials have a standard called a code of conduct. Any kind of ethical violation is submitted to the Ethics Board and they hear it and make the determination on that part of it. Mr. Ewing asked if there was going to be an election every year with the two year staggered term. Councilwoman Bennington answered yes, every year after. 1992. The whole council up one more time was not in the best interest of this city but if the citizens felt they wanted that as an option, they could make a recommendation to the council. No matter what they had to put down on this proposal, the city council has final say on what goes on the ballot. Shirley Garthwaite of 10 Lee Drive commented that she was very much opposed to the three year staggered term. She felt that in the past they had people that were terrible and they didn't want them any longer. She thinks it could be very damaging to the city. Mary Martin said instead of presenting the charter with election terms spelled out, they wanted to give the citizens of Edgewater an option to vote on, so they could decide. Mr. Ewing feels that if it is made three years, they wouldn't get an approval on the charter. Councilwoman Bennington said they felt the people should have the choice of terms, and from what they were hearing, the option is a two year or a three year term versus the three and four year term. Mr. Fazzone said their part is to get a workable charter that the citizens want and can live with. It is for the people to decide and what they want will be in that charter. Mr. McClain said you also have an ethics committee which you don't have here that you should have, and the major concern is there might be a rotten apple. City Manager Johnson said there is a state ethics board that handles all officials and the law the way it is set up in the state statute only allows us as an independent board. A gentlemen also mentioned the main concern is there may be someone who isn't doing his job and there should be a way this can be handled. Councilwoman Bennington thought with staggered terms someone that isn't doing their job can be handled with more control. Kirk Jones of 428 Perdita St. asked how many cities in this state actually had everybody come up at one time. Mr. Johnson said it is probably less than five in the whole state. Councilwoman Bennington commented Daytona is one now. Mr. Jones thought a three year term should be looked at, as with a three year term versus a two year term, you're going to need a lot more money for the election process. He recommended the three year term. Councilwoman Bennington said the last charter committee had some studies and a percentage of people that voted in November only go out to vote for the President, then there are individuals that are only interested in the county. The smallest number of votes are for city elections. Mr. Fazzone felt it's very interesting to know that people are really concerned. He commented there are 15 sections in our present charter that are obsolete because they are covered by state laws and they should not be in ours. He said if you looked at the proposed charter there are only 6 articles and each article has its own sections. That is the entire proposed charter rather than our book which has 147 sections. Councilwoman Bennington explained article 6 says this two year staggered term is what people want. Once that is started in March, 1992, the council takes article 6 out of the charter because the transition period is complete ... and it no longer needs to be there. Mr. Ewing said if that's what that says then I don't understand the English language. A gentlemen asked Mr. Fazzone if he had decided which staggered term is going to be put first. Mr. McClain thought the present system of two years should be first and then the three year as an option. Mr. Fazzone told him he was sure the committee will consider that without any problem. Mr. McClain asked if this was the empowered charter. Councilwoman Bennington answered yes, as it's proposed, and as it stands right now, this is the ninth draft of the proposed charter. There will be a couple more meetings to clean up some of the language and some of the things that need to be taken out and put in. It will be going to the council pretty much the way it is. Mr. Ewing asked to be told when the complete charter is ready. Councilwoman Bennington told him that there will be one more month of fine tuning and then it will be presented to the council and they will take it from there and they will have their public hearing. She also mentioned if there were any clubs that would like them to come and talk, they would be happy to do so. Information has been solicited from the public so they feel this is their charter, and this mess is in the process of being cleaned up so they can give the people what they want. Ray Gagnon of 1618 Needle Palm Drive commented on article 2. He said that says very little. Councilwoman Bennington said the way she understands the ordinance, as Edgewater grows the boundaries change and every time you add to it you have it locked in there. City Manager. Johnson said those are filed with the secretary of state's office in Tallahassee. Mr. Gagnon asked City Manager Johnson if he was currently working with the county on an overall plan for reserved areas. City Manager Johnson told him the plan was submitted for a 180 reserve area and they are dealing with the county on that. Mr. Gagnon commented he works in New Smyrna and they finally have a reserve area but no agreement has been signed. Mr. Johnson explained to him the difference is they want to reserve it and they want it for themselves so they can support other areas of the county with it. Mr. Gagnon also mentioned section 5.03, number 5. It says $25 in parentheses and ten dollars in writing. Councilwoman Bennington told him it is $25. One of the things they are recommending to change is in the type of qualifying. Right now it's 25 signatures. All the cities in Volusia County have been canvassed and they found only 1 qualifying, all the others have a fee. They were going to say 10% of the registered voters for signatures so that as more voters register, the more signatures you needed to qualify. But it was determined that wasn't ethical and a $25 filing fee was. Mr. Gagnon also brought up Section 3.07. He wanted to know why it had gone on after empowered to appoint. City Manager Johnson responded that you need that as a balance because if there is a problem with a staff member, they need that communication. He also said there are federal and state guidelines regarding firing and terminating an employee and he has to go through a progressive disciplinary action. That is why it gives that communication. Most of the charters he has seen have it in that form. There was also concern about the council if he appointed somebody they weren't happy with, they are eventually going to get rid of the City Manager. Mr. Gagnon said of course with that knowledge they are going to work accordingly. City Manager Johnson said they can express you fully and freely. They also have a right of inquiry. Mr. Gagnon said they can come to you and complain about anybody they want. City Manager Johnson replied he would rather know if there is a problem because he wants the citizens to feel they can talk to him. Councilwoman Bennington explained that from a council standpoint, that also protects a councilman from going to the city manager and complaining about somebody and the rest of the council getting upset and saying you're in violation of the code of conduct. You know with the charter it's very specific on what the council can and can't do and the rest of the conduct as to what council can and can't do in relationship to the city manager form of government is outlined and locked in. If this proposed amendment is adopted the council knows exactly where they can and can't go. Mr. Gagnon agreed with Councilwoman Bennington that is the only way it can be in order to have an effective city manager form of government. He suggested making the election at 2 o'clock on Tuesday in March because then people that really want to be there will be there. When he read this he was under the opinion that on a three year staggered term there would not be three people and then two people. It would be two two and one. Councilwoman Bennington told him that it will always be three and two, there's no other way it can be staggered. City Manager Johnson stated you can look at 55 different cities and you are probably going to wind up with 55 variations of it, as there's no set pattern. A gentleman commented that it seemed to him any time you have a majority change over, you have great momentum for a philosophy Iwo Nov change. Every time you do that the city manager is dead in the water and then the department heads stand around going now what. Mary Martin mentioned you don't have quite so much of that problem but you also notice that of the three, one of those is the mayor, and who is left is at large and not from a particular zoning area. Councilwoman Bennington said when they went into this they wanted to get away from an election every year, and that's why they came up with the four year staggered term. That way they have their two councilmen elected for four years, and the mayor is elected for two years, and every two years the mayor runs with two different councilmen. Harvey Hardin of 207 Hubbell Street commended the charter commission on doing a very fine job and he commented that he liked the streamline approach. A gentlemen asked what was wrong with two, two and one. Mr. Johnson explained that when you have the three year staggered term you can change the majority of the council very easily, but when you get into other areas under the voting right act there is something that would have to be filed in the Justice Department and you go through all kinds of changes and then you've got the federal government down here every time you hold an election. Mary Martin mentioned that one thing that was addressed in this charter is the size of the zones. With the way Edgewater will be growing, we have written the charter so the zones can change every ten years and keep them equal rather than having each zone growing by leaps and bounds and outgrowing all the rest of the zones. Councilwoman Bennington mentioned that as soon as the census report comes in and they know where the population is, under this proposed charter it will automatically be redistricted so that all of the zones will be as equitable as possible. A gentleman asked how many registered voters there were in Edgewater right now? City Clerk Wadsworth answered him with 7,400 approximately. Mr. Johnson added out of 13,000 people. Shirley Garthwaite asked what the cost of an election is? City Clerk Wadsworth answered her with a little over $5,000 now, but we are going to be getting new machines so prices may vary a little because of hauling of the equipment. Mrs. Garthwaite wanted to know if it would make a difference if they pushed one lever or fifty. City Clerk Wadsworth said the only thing that would make a difference is the printing of the ballots. She added that the present machines will be used up until January of next year. Councilwoman Bennington asked if there were any other questions or comments. City Manager Johnson said if there were, bring them to City Hall and they will be distributed to members of the committee. Councilwoman Bennington closed the meeting by saying this charter would be with the committee for approximately another month. After that it will be going to the council and then the council will have their public hearing and do with it whatever they are going to do with it and get ready for the March election. She told the citizens that they had some very good ideas and she thanked them all.