11-24-1997 - Special/Workshop
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CITY COUNCIL OF EDGEWATER
SPECIAL MEETING/WORKSHOP
NOVEMBER 24, 1997
7:00 P.M.
COMMUNITY CENTER
MINUTES
CALL TO ORDER
Mayor Allman called the Special Meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. in
the Community Center.
ROLL CALL
Mayor Randy Allman
Councilman James Gornto
Councilman Myron Hammond
Councilman Gary Roberts
Councilwoman Judith Lichter
Interim City Manager Kenneth Hooper
Interim City Attorney Nikki Clayton
City Clerk Susan Wadsworth
Police Chief Lawrence Schumaker
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
INVOCATION. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
There was a silent invocation and pledge of allegiance to the
Flag.
Supervisor of Election's report on uniform election dates
Deanie Lowe, Supervisor of Elections, presented the history of
the Uniform Municipal Election Act for Council.
Ms. Lowe informed Council she has given City Clerk Wadsworth what
they are proposing as an amendment to the bill which would cause
the cities to have elections in October and November.
Ms. Lowe informed Council she is available to answer any
questions Council may have about the history, what they have been
doing, and what they are proposing to do. She hopes they have
Council's support on this.
Councilwoman Lichter questioned the elections in Edgewater being
in October and November. Ms. Lowe stated the Primary would be
held in October and the General would be in November.
Ms. Lowe briefly spoke about problems cities have had with the
elections being in September and October.
Ms. Lowe asked Council to take a formal vote on the proposed
changes within the next month.
Councilwoman Lichter made a motion to support the amendment to go
with an October Primary and November General election, second by
Councilman Roberts. The motion CARRIED 5-0.
City Manager selection process (Tabled 11/17/97)
Interim City Manager Hooper presented an update on the City
Manager selection process. He informed Council we are up to
approximately 117 applications.
Norm Hickey, Range Riders, informed Council of what the Range
Riders do.
Councilwoman Lichter asked Mr. Hickey what he would need from
Council other than the applications. Mr. Hickey informed Council
they would stay strictly within the guidelines and standards
Council sets. He informed Council there is no charge for this
service.
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Interim city Manager Hooper informed Council what he has supplie~
the Range Riders up-to-date.
Interim city Manager Hooper informed Council he would like a
motion to approve the process.
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Interim City Manager Hooper would like Council to hold a Special
Meeting on December 10th to put together the short listing of
people to interview.
It was the consensus of Council to hold a Special Meeting on
December 10th. Interim city Manager Hooper informed Council they
will need to bring their list of ten most qualified individuals.
Councilman Roberts asked Mr. Hickey how long it
the Range Riders to put their results together.
stated they would have theirs done within three
They will also be ready by December 10th.
would take for
Mr. Hickey
or four days.
Councilwoman Lichter made a motion to use the Range Riders to
help in the City Manager selection process and in the end the
Council will make the final decision, second by Councilman
Hammond. The motion CARRIED 5-0.
outsourcing of City Attorney's position
Interim city Manager Hooper presented a comparison to Council of
the cost for an in-house attorney as opposed to outside legal
counsel.
Interim City Manager Hooper predicted the City would probably
save in the $50,000 to $100,000 range by contracting for legal
fees versus filling the position from inside.
Donna McIntosh, Stenster McIntosh law firm, informed Council her
law firm represents at the current time five cities. She went
over their bills to the city of Oviedo over the past five years.
Their bills run $100,000 to $125,000 without extraordinary legal
expenses.
Ms. McIntosh stated their law firm is one of many law firms in
the Central Florida area that specialize in representing local
government. She feels if the City goes out for a request for
proposal for legal fees, there will be a large number of firms
responding to that.
Ms. McIntosh feels probably the biggest benefit of not having in-
house counsel is having a private law firm behind the City.
Ms. McIntosh elaborated on the attorneys in her firm and what
they specialize in.
Ms. McIntosh elaborated on the benefits with having a law firm as
opposed to having an in-house attorney.
Ms. McIntosh spoke about a memo from Interim City Manager Hooper
dated November 19, 1997. She concluded with all of the
statements he is making she finds that his bottom line conclusion
of a savings of approximately $50,000 to $100,000 to be a very
conservative estimate in the event the City does not experience
any extraordinary legal situations.
Councilwoman Lichter asked when Ms. McIntosh's law firm
represents a city, such as Sanford, do they need to go out for
certain types of litigation beyond what that size firm can
handle.
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Ms. McIntosh elaborated on the sixteen years that they have
represented Sanford and remembering only going outside the firm
one time.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if there would be a reason to have
legal assistance from the legal department in city Hall. Ms.
McIntosh elaborated on it being how Council structures it. In
the five cities, they are currently representing, none of those
cities have any in-house legal assistance. The liaison and gate
keeper is the City Manager who needs to monitor the request for
legal opinions and assistance.
Councilman Roberts questioned the City Manager working as a
screening operation so there wasn't a lot of wasted time on
questions that weren't relevant to issues.
Councilwoman Lichter spoke about the Charter leaning towards in-
house. It doesn't forbid the person that acts as legal attorney
from living out of town but by making the stipulation that it
would prefer that that's the correct way for all department heads
of the town to live here. It even goes further and gives
reasons.
Interim City Attorney Clayton explained it also provides a
process where you can consider that under the circumstance that
would be a waivable requirement. If this is a process Council
wants to follow and deal with a firm, then Council will address
the residency issue when it is in due course because the Code
also provides how Council would avoid that requirement were the
circumstances necessary. She mentioned there not being a full
service firm within the City that does municipal work.
Ms. McIntosh informed Council if they select a firm that is a
driving distance from Edgewater, they could look for a negotiated
reduced fee on travel time and attempt to negotiate that all the
way down to zero. Interim City Attorney Clayton stated they have
talked her into that.
Interim City Attorney Clayton asked Ms. McIntosh to describe some
of the services provided to a City, questions that come up and
boards they represent. Ms. McIntosh elaborated on this request.
Interim City Attorney Clayton asked Ms. McIntosh to talk about
preventive medicine and if they find times when the City Council
and City Manager can be helped in preventive or sensitizing
themselves in advance of issues that might come up. Ms. McIntosh
stated that is probably one of the most rewarding areas that the
firms that represent local governments like to be in because they
like to solve the problem before it even starts.
Interim City Attorney Clayton thanked Ms. McIntosh for coming.
Councilwoman Lichter questioned response times and if an
emergency happens, can the City get through and how many hours do
we wait to hear back. Ms. McIntosh feels that is a critical
issue and she encouraged Council, if they aren't getting the
response times they need, to get a new attorney.
Councilman Roberts asked Ms. McIntosh about presence at meetings
and if they have a certain amount of time that they guarantee for
the different meetings. Ms. McIntosh explained it depends on
what is negotiated. with some cities they represent, they have a
flat fee with a scope of services and then after that it would be
an hourly rate.
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Councilman Roberts stated if they hire a firm that has a dozen
lawyers that each specialize in different fields, would a
different lawyer show up at the different board meetings or if
the same attorney would attend all the meetings. Ms. McIntosh
informed him whatever they want, and she went on to explain what
they do.
Councilwoman Lichter asked the ratio in Volusia County of in-
house versus firms. Ms. McIntosh stated she is seeing in-house
everywhere in Volusia County.
There was a brief discussion regarding cities who have in-house
attorneys as opposed to outside legal counsel.
Councilman Roberts questioned the cities in Volusia County that
have in-house legal counsel and how much they spend on outside
firms and if they are paying a full time attorney and they are
doing the same thing Edgewater went through by paying out more
legal fees to outside firms, doesn't it make more sense to hire a
private firm and handle it that way. Ms. McIntosh stated her
experience is that when you hire a full service law firm you are
able to negotiate a lower rate. She feels the average rate the
Council will see for services is $125 per hour.
Mayor Allman thanked Ms. McIntosh for coming.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if they decide to go with outside
legal counsel, how do they go about the process. Interim City
Attorney Clayton elaborated on request for proposals which is
similar to a bid process but you aren't competing on price, you
are competing on qualifications and experience.
Interim city Manager Hooper suggested bringing this back to
Council. He would put this in advertisement form and define the
selection process and schedule dates for it to be advertised. He
will bring this back at the next regular meeting.
Councilwoman Lichter feels there are pros and cons both ways.
Perhaps the salary price in the past was rather high, but it was
very clear that the past attorney was not going to do certain
types of litigation. She further commented on the pros and cons
of having in-house or outside legal counsel.
Councilwoman Lichter doesn't feel trying something new is
something they are locked into forever.
Mayor Allman feels they should table this for now and come back
at the next meeting with an advertising type showing Council what
their options actually are.
Interim City Manager Hooper agreed to place this on the agenda
for the meeting on December 1st.
Councilman Roberts commented on the concern about response time.
He would think the city Manager would be able to contact and have
communication a lot easier through e-mail and today's technology
to keep up with an outside law firm just as quick as if they were
in-house. He doesn't see a problem with this. Interim City
Attorney Clayton explained there is no guarantee in terms of
accessibility and responsiveness because there are always reasons
why it is a little later than not. Firms specializing in local
government practice recognize that timing is almost everything so
they are going to want to protect their relationship they have
with one of their better clients so they are going to be
responsive or Council will be in the drivers seat.
There was a ten-minute recess at this time.
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Mayor Allman would like to start an application process for
citizens who are interested in serving on the Charter Review
Committee. Interim City Manager Hooper recommended each
Councilmember appoint an individual. He feels a five person
working group is a good size to come up with this and give
specific direction.
Interim City Manager Hooper suggested bringing back a resolution
appointing members.
Councilwoman Lichter stated in the past she has served on two
Charter commissions and was against the City Manager form of
government and was for the Mayor form of government but she has
accepted this type of government.
It was the consensus of Council to prepare a resolution and bring
it back.
Councilman Roberts stated if they are going to take advice from
professionals as well as the committee established, would it be
wise to figure out what they are going to do about a City
Attorney, as far as a law firm, then they will have someone in
the legal corner to consult with as well when it comes to
revising the Charter that will be with the City long term.
Interim City Manager Hooper stated it can be done that way or his
memo addresses considering a budget allocation where money is set
aside so the Charter Review Committee can call on an attorney on
their own.
Mayor Allman stated irregardless what is recommended, the voters
will have the final say.
Councilman Roberts spoke about Council approving the funds before
they can be spent by the Charter Review Committee. Interim City
Manager Hooper explained they could set up a designated amount or
ask Committee to make a list of how they want to spend money and
bring that back to Council for their authorization.
BUdget/financial assessment of city
Interim City Manager Hooper stated right now the City has a cash
reserve that is very large. He recommended a cash reserve be 10
to 15 percent of a budget and recommended the city have a cash
reserve of 15 percent of the general fund. He feels the City
should have around $1 million in cash reserve. The cash reserve
right now from just the general fund is about $2.4 million.
Mayor Allman asked if this is what Councilman Hammond brought up
some time ago and was chastised about. Interim City Manager
Hooper stated this is part of the earlier discussion of where is
the money, how much money and so forth.
Councilman Roberts stated this is strictly unrestricted funds out
of the general fund but questioned if there are also surplus
funds through some of the enterprise funds. Interim City Manager
Hooper informed him that is correct.
Councilman Roberts asked if you had a certain enterprise fund
that was building up extremely high reserve, then you could also
reduce rates to the general public to cut the cost to the
homeowner from water or stormwater fees. Interim City Manager
Hooper informed him that is correct.
Councilman Roberts feels since Edgewater has one of the highest
ad valorem tax rates in the County maybe it would be wise to see
if there is a way to ease the burden to the taxpayers with some
of the surplus money.
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Update on Charter
Interim City Manager Hooper made a presentation regarding the
procedures Council would need to follow to update the existing
City Charter.
Interim City Manager Hooper suggested Council appoint a committee
with a specific schedule, a resolution defining what they want
done, a schedule in which it would come back, outline areas the
Council would like the committee to review, areas of concern in
the Charter and let the committee go through the process and
bring back to Council a proposed amended Charter for Council's
review. Council would then hold a public hearing on it and then
it is subject to going with exactly what is presented, modifying
it to whatever degree Council wants to or totally saying they
don't want to do anything with the Charter. Council would adopt
a modified Charter amendment by Ordinance, assuming there is one,
and then the ordinance is placed on a referendum in which it
needs the majority of the citizens vote and then it becomes the
new Charter.
Interim city Manager Hooper informed Council of his memo where he
outlined the steps the Council would have to take to amend the
Charter and a listing of areas he feels they should address which
he went over at this time.
Interim City Manager Hooper referred Council to a model city
Charter which he submitted for them.
Mayor Allman stated the purpose of reviewing the Charter is not
because he is in favor of a strong Mayor form of government. He
believes the City Manager form of government is best for this
city.
Councilwoman Lichter referred to defining the role of City
Manager and asked if this is the same as the administrative code
that we never had. Interim City Manager Hooper explained what he
is saying in the administrative code is the set of policy
procedures, purchasing policies and purchasing procedures. Most
cities would have a full listing of every department of policy
and procedures on how that department works.
Councilwoman Lichter feels they should do a terminology cleanup.
Councilman Roberts suggested putting in the Charter that every so
many years the Charter be reviewed. He feels it should be
required that it be looked at every couple of years.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on items she feels are missing
from the Charter. She feels the Charter is very simplistic.
Interim City Manager Hooper stated you don't want to have
everything in the Charter. You want to address very large issues
that are city-wide and mandated through the Council.
Interim City Attorney Clayton asked City Clerk Wadsworth if there
were professional consultants working with the Charter Review
Committee five years ago. City Clerk Wadsworth informed her only
the City Attorney.
Interim City Attorney Clayton suggested Council might want to
consider the professional consultant giving the Charter Review
Committee input.
Mayor Allman asked if they could have consultants and the Charter
Review Committee. Interim City Attorney Clayton explained the
professionals would be advisory to the citizens so the citizens
would have some guidance.
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Councilwoman Lichter feels some of the city's needs are critical.
Interim City Manager Hooper stated typical of any city that has
limited funds, there are several different ways to spend the
money. There are some unrestricted reserve funds that are over
and above what normally a city would need.
Interim City Manager Hooper presented several projects where the
money could be used. He feels this should be brought back to
Council through budget and a public hearing to talk about how
they want to reallocate.
Councilman Gornto spoke about attending the budget hearings and
one or two of the councilmembers were very concerned with the
self-insurance fund having $600,000 in it and that it was
supposed to be at a million dollars. He feels if the City is
sitting on this kind of cash, it was unbelievable that the City
didn't have money to even consider building a fire station or
pave a road that goes into the recreation area but the City is
sitting on $1.4 million that this Council is deciding how to
spend. He is having a hard time reconciling the meetings they
sat through and where they are at tonight. He applauded Interim
City Manager Hooper for coming up with this.
Councilwoman Lichter asked to hear from Mr. Munoz so they could
hear more reasoning in order to make some sense of the surplus.
Finance Director Fred Munoz elaborated on some reasons why they
were able to add a healthy balance to last year's budget. He
spoke about some of the savings from FY 96/97 being a result of
expenditures that were not made. He spoke about interest gained
on money because of delays in the paving program.
Councilman Roberts questioned why the public was not informed
about this money. He feels the public needs to be made aware
because it is their tax dollars.
Councilwoman Lichter feels now would be the time to get
priorities in order. She feels they should look at priority
lists from the department heads.
Councilwoman Lichter stated she attended the budget hearings and
got the same impression that Councilman Gornto did. She is
happily surprised but knows they can't play that kind of game
again.
Councilman Roberts stated it is good to have a healthy city
financially but to a certain point. Interim City Manager Hooper
and Mr. Munoz both agree this is a healthy balance. The City
still has a large sum of money to draw on in emergency situations
where the city may need cash.
Interim city Manager Hooper suggested Council look at doing
quarterly reviews and mid-year adjustments to the budget. He
thinks they are going to recommend to Council to phase out the
self-insurance fund.
Councilman Roberts suggested with the extra money in the general
fund, he doesn't feel they should go on a spending spree. He
feels they need to spend it conservatively.
Interim City Manager Hooper stated he would bring back a budget
and controlled list of some ideas with cost and call it a re-
budget of a certain amount of money for capital. If you put it
into recurring like positions, you are going to pay for it every
year. He doesn't recommend Council do that.
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councilman Roberts asked about the money that was acquired by
transferring the building on Mango Tree Drive to the Water
Department. He asked if the money is included in this or if it
is in the Fire Department's separate budget. Interim city
Manager Hooper informed him it is in a separate budget.
Councilman Roberts stated we could use that money plus what we
want out of this money to put up a substation on the west side of
the tracks. Interim City Manager Hooper stated that is correct.
Councilwoman Lichter questioned if a substation was agreed on.
Interim City Manager Hooper stated not a substation but whatever
they come back with. The first fire station siting committee
meeting is tomorrow.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if they would be evaluated again in
terms of their fire rating. Interim City Manager Hooper
explained that is done at Council's request.
Mayor Allman commended Councilman Hammond for having the
foresight to see the money was there during the election and was
told that it wasn't.
Interim City Manager Hooper asked to bring back the capital
budget on December 15th and see how Council wishes to appropriate
it. It was the consensus of Council to bring this back on
December 15th.
Mayor Allman spoke about our Recreation Department being in dire
straits and needing to do something for the kids. He also feels
there is a paving problem on Mango Tree Drive that needs to be
taken care of. He is very glad the money is there and that the
City is not in as bad a shape as they were led to believe.
Donald Price, 302 S. Ridgewood Ave, spoke about Councilman
Roberts suggestion of giving the money back to the taxpayers. He
feels if the money was given back to the taxpayers by applying it
to next year's budget, it would do much more good and would go
back to the taxpayers. He feels it would be unwise to make a
cash refund of that surplus. He spoke about a tornado that went
through Edgewater in 1986 and the one that recently occurred in
New Smyrna Beach. He feels it might be a good idea to have more
rather than less than the usual surplus as a reserve fund.
Councilman Roberts explained he was referring to giving money
back to the taxpayers in the form of a reduction in the ad
valorem tax or user fees through the enterprise funds.
Paul Jenkins, willow Oak Drive, spoke about unique circumstances
that left the City with a little extra money this year. He feels
that is more the issue of why they have all the extra money they
didn't expect to have.
Mr. Jenkins disagreed with having only five members on the
Charter Review Committee. He feels they need to get more
representation. He recommended each councilmember appoint three
people and then another five people come from the Chamber and
another business entity and other types of groups.
Michael Yukon, 1853 Evergreen Drive, spoke about the City
Attorney selection process. He finds it hard to believe there
would be between $50,000 and $100,000 less by going with outside
legal counsel. He recommended Council consider the City Attorney
being under contract and being paid a relatively small amount
such as in the city of South Daytona.
Mr. Yukon spoke about response times. Any good attorney will
return calls. He feels there is a benefit to having someone on
hand.
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Andy Anderson, pine Tree Drive, presented reasons why he feels
the idea of having an outside law firm is an excellent idea. He
feels the City would save $75,000 by going with an outside firm
and feels it would be a win-win situation.
Ed Keenan, 1905 pine Tree Drive, stated the thing he hears the
most gripe about is the utility bills. He suggested Council go
across the board and reduce the water rate, the garbage,
stormwater, sewer and maybe the ad valorem.
Mr. Keenan feels if the City has too much money, the feds won't
give any money to clean up a natural disaster.
Candace Natoli, 35th street, stated she is interested in the
Charter Review. She spoke about an experience she had at the
Volusia County League of Women Voters meeting where a member of
the Florida's Commission Review Committee spoke. In the State of
Florida, each generation has the duty of reviewing the
Constitution of the state to see that it suits the needs of the
citizens. She feels it is a privilege to be in a state that
believes that each generation has a duty to the generations that
follow.
Ms. Natoli stated the impression she got from the speaker was
they felt it was a privilege to serve on the committee for
Constitution review. She thinks that as things would have to go
for referendum in the odd year anyway, considerations of Charter
Review might better come about a year from now as we hear the
results of this larger group, the Gold Standard Group. She feels
the City could benefit from what they have to share. She feels
it is not a bad idea as Councilman Roberts was saying about a
regular review of the City Charter which is similar to a version
of the State Constitution.
Mayor Allman passed the gavel to Vice Mayor Roberts. Due to all
of the turmoil over the last six weeks, city staff has put in a
lot of extra effort and have worked hard.
Mayor Allman made a motion to pass Friday off as a holiday as
well as Thursday.
Mayor Allman was informed staff already has off on Friday.
ADJOURNMENT
Mayor Allman stated since he has made a fool of himself and
passed the gavel, he made a motion to adjourn, second by
Councilman Hammond. The motion CARRIED 5-0. The meeting
adjourned at 9:05 p.m.
Minutes submitted by
Lisa Kruckmeyer
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