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01-17-2006 - Joint Workshop/Council,P&Z,EDB CITY COUNCIL OF EDGEWATER JOINT WORKSHOP CITY COUNCIL, PLANNING & ZONING BOARD, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BOARD JANUARY 17, 2006 5:30 P.M. 6:30 P.M. MINUTES CALL TO ORDER Mayor Thomas called the Workshop to order at 5:30 p.m. in the Community Center. ROLL CALL Mayor Michael Thomas Present Councilwoman Debra Rogers Present Councilman Dennis Vincenzi Present Councilwoman Harriet Rhodes Present Councilwoman Judith Lichter Present City Manager Kenneth Hooper Present City Clerk Susan Wadsworth Present MEETING PURPOSE Petitions for Charter Amendments, presented by Edgewater Citizens' Alliance for Responsible Development, Inc. (ECARD) TAPE ONE MISSING Dot Carlson, 1714 Edgewater Drive, Edgewater Citizens Alliance for Responsible Development, ECARD, read a prepared statement into the record. (Attached) Smart Growth /Growth Management with speaker Clay Henderson Mayor Thomas asked Mr. Ross if he had any questions or comments. The following citizens spoke: Dave Ross, 2803 Needle Palm Drive, had a couple of questions for Mr. Henderson about things he didn't fully understand. When they talk about water, why can't they get Page 1 of 10 Council Workshop January 17, 2006 off the donkey they are riding and get on to the desalinization. That's the solution and everybody in this room knows it, every developer knows it and every government official knows it but nobody talks about it. Let's get on with it. The problem he always had is with smart growth because it basically says stack people on top of each other. If the developers are going to pay for the roads, which he agreed they should, why can't they have a thousand homes on a thousand acres out here in the middle of nowhere because the developer is going to pay for the roads. What's wrong with that? Mr. Henderson stated they have had desalinization in Southeast Volusia for a long time. They have had their old plants down in what were originally trailer park developments south of here. They acknowledge that that is going to be in our future. Even the St. Johns River. They think of the St. Johns as fresh water but it is very brackish. They are going through pilot projects now to look at ways to retrieve potable water from that. There are other places in the State where desalinization has been used effectively and in some places like Tampa Bay where they still haven't got all of the bugs worked out of the system. He thinks they all know that's part of the future but it's not here yet. In the mean time, in any event they still have to manage the resource because it's the only resource that we have. They need to do the best we can. Mr. Henderson stated they talked about adding livable, viable cities and communities. What they have to do is have higher density, mixed use facilities in core parts of the city. People can live and they can walk to the store. They can go to the library and do different things. Unfortunately they built a community here where the only thing they can do is get in a car to go drive somewhere to do things so the more they can incentivize these clusters, higher density clusters where people can do all those things and not have to get in the car, that is good. Mr. Henderson commented on protection of the environmental core of the County. The easiest thing they can do is say anybody that wants to go out there and do a five acre or ten acre track all the way across, ranchette, put the gate around it, put the fence around it, and there you go. What they would have is a very fragmented ecosystem that will no longer serve the purposes that it is doing today and truly contributes to the overall quality of this community. Page 2 of 10 Council Workshop January 17, 2006 That's what you will get. If they do nothing, that's what is going to happen. Edgewater and Deltona are going to share a common border some day and there will be a lot of ranchettes out there in the middle and it won't be the place that they would like it to be. It's a philosophy and it requires a little bit of a change because there are a lot of folks out there that want to come to Florida and have their five or ten acre ranchette in the middle of nowhere and that's going to be a whole vast improvement from wherever up north they are moving from. But if they allow it to be all broken apart out there, the fragmentation is going to cause a lot of other problems that they think as a community are going to be harder for them to solve. Mayor Thomas asked Mr. Henderson if he knew how many counties have got a smart growth plan? Mr. Henderson informed him there are sixty -seven that have a dumb growth plan and they are all trying to get little smart about it. He thinks a number of counties are going through a process of adaptation as we are, some better than others. There are some counties that have tools that they can look at. Brevard County for instance has incentives for protecting wetlands and doing more intensity protect areas. Sarasota County has done a really good job of visioning and integrating that with their land acquisition program. The City of Jacksonville, Duval County, which is an integrated system has been quite visionary in the way that it has looked at a protecting the environmental areas along the St. Johns River and the outer parts of the County while giving incentives to try to really rebuild and redevelop the core downtown. So there are a lot of things going on around the State. Alachua County just passed a new land development code where they have provided for transfer of development rights, incentives for a rural stewardship program but also protecting the key environmentally sensitive areas of the County. There are lot of smart growth tools that are now being implemented around the State and they just all have to do a better job of reaching out and saying they lack that and they can take a piece of that and bring it back here and he thinks they have done lot of that in the report. Pat Card, 3019 Willow Oak Drive, stated the level of standards that they seem to apply on things like transportation impacts are minimally acceptable. That isn't what they look at in this community when it's time to Page 3 of 10 Council Workshop January 17, 2006 say are they affecting the quality of life in our community with this development. How does this program address that problem? Mr. Storch informed him if they look at the smart growth implementation committee, one of the things they were most concerned about was quality of life. It brings up all these things Mr. Card was talking about, the transportation impact. He commented on the quality of life suffering in Miami and Tampa because of the transportation program they have right now and because they didn't deal with it. Volusia County is actually far ahead of many areas in the State because they have dealt with transportation up front early enough where they now don't have three or four stops at a light to get through. But that doesn't mean they can't deal with that. They are going to have 750,000 people drop in on us in the next thirty or forty years. He suspected based on last year's growth rates and what's going to happen, he thinks those are conservative numbers. So they have to deal with those issues. One of the things he has looked at is the fact that they need green areas next to the road. They need road planning and visioning now because it takes thirty years to create road systems. If they allow for development next to roads right now then the cost of ever doing anything, such as four lanes and providing for those roads systems in the future, is gone because of the cost so that's why a vision for the entire area now is so important. They have to think as though its forty years in the future. They have to think what's going to happen. That's where they started with was smart growth. How can they preserve the quality of life for ourselves and our kids? They want to be here when they are older and they want their kids to be here when they are older and they want them to enjoy the same quality of life that they have now. Those are the things they are looking at. Mr. Card commented on setting standards for this that minimally impact them in their quality of life. The standards for this that he sees come before them on the Planning & Zoning Board he believes would adversely affect something other than no change. Ms. Langford informed Mr. Card that they had a couple of the city managers come and present to them they said one of the pieces is increasing density in urban areas and if they are going to increase density in urban areas then they have Page 4 of 10 Council Workshop January 17, 2006 to think about transferring those funds from the County to the municipalities. But this was part of their discussion of how are they going to be equitable when they have this visionary process. They have to look at all the players and if they are saying okay Deltona you are not going to spread out, you are going to build up and maybe they have to say countywide, well maybe they need more funds for roads if they are going to agree to do that. It's all going to be in the details and how they hammer that out within their own bodies. Mr. Card asked if there was any tool they are putting tighter to allow or to encourage small developments to work together to provide land for schools. Ms. Langford commented on proportional share mitigation. That is something as a school district that they are looking at very carefully because it's the cumulative affect. Forty acres here, twenty acres there. Should a developer with a hundred acres have to provide twenty acres for school sites because two big areas right next to them didn't have to? They are working on that. Mr. Card stated he sees that every time they approve a development but a majority of the developments they have approved in this area are relatively small. Mr. Storch explained what they are beginning to see now is proportional share agreements like for traffic. Let's say they need an intersection or a traffic signal. Well it's not the fault of one small developer that they need the traffic signal but it's because of the cumulative affect of a number of different developers. What they have now is they are dealing with proportional share agreements where one person will pay twenty percent of the cost and one percent will pay ten percent etc. He suspected they are going to see the same thing with the school sites. He suspected what's going to happen is they are going to have school site areas set aside or contracts for areas and then someone is going to contribute towards that particular piece of land. This is all part of the vision that they are talking about. Mr. Henderson explained in Brevard County for the last two years when they have a zoning application that goes through the system in Brevard, the staff report comes out and it says this project on ten acres will generate ex- number of Page 5 of 10 Council Workshop January 17, 2006 elementary school, middle school and high school students. In this district the capacity in the Edgewater Public school is such, the New Smyrna Middle School is such, and the New Smyrna High School is such and if they are either at capacity or not. If there is not capacity then they have to negotiate the proportionate share agreement to work towards that. County Councilman Jack Hayman stated he thinks they are giving a bad rap to the developers. He wanted to make sure that the record is clear. He has sat at the table with developers and business people who said to the Planning Departments just give me the figure, tell me what it's going to cost. He would write the check. They understand that they create the need. They understand they contribute to the service problems and they understand that they have a fair share. It's a business for them and they are business people. They take these costs of doing business and they put them into the cost of the project and what do they do. They pass it on to the clients, to the consumers. So it's a methodology that was going on that happens every day in every other business. Please don't leave here tonight saying that developers are dirty rotten dogs. There are some out there that are unscrupulous and there are some out there that don't give a hoot or a holler about the environment. But they are the key. If they are going to do this, they need to meet a couple of needs for developers. He knows some developers right now that are working to together to create a pool of land and a pool of money to buy necessary land for things like schools. That's what they are trying to do. Firehouses and Police stations and it may not even be in an area that would service their product or the community but it's buying into a more pressing need somewhere else in the community. Oak Hill desperately needs water and desperately needs sewer. What would be wrong with a developer up in the Ormond Beach area to say okay he would contribute ex- million dollars to help them to put a plan in or put the infrastructure to make some connectivity. That's the way it's going to be working. They are going to have transfer to development right and credits. These systems, it's a bank account with value and land and property. What's wrong with telling this person if they will not develop this but they would give them the development rights on their property, he would give them ex -tens of thousands of dollars and they can live there in perpetuity and they can sell it but it can't change? What they have and what's there is going to Page 6 of 10 Council Workshop January 17, 2006 stay. These are the things that are going to happen. The development community is far ahead of us in creating some of these creative ideas. They really are. What they are dealing with today is encumbered by the ordinances that they have in place. If they say they have a product they don't like, they have to say how did we get there and what regulations and rules drove them there. If they don't like where they are, they have to find the salient rules, regulations, ordinances, and policies and they have to create and change because if they don't do it then they have to make it right. Gigi Bennington. 121 Virginia Street, commented on having all of these agreements and doing away with government and the elected officials not having that much to say. Mr. Hayman stated that's not what's happening to him. He explained they are still out there doing the planning and land development there and they are the people that are going to do a lot of the yeoman's work. They are the ones who are going to help craft some of these changes that are necessary. They are the one's that are going to give it a run for the money. These are very skilled people with a great deal of experience. They can't afford to lose those kinds of people because they know what's right and they know what has happened to create these outcomes. They are going to be looking at change and they are the first cut, our managers. If they have skilled, experienced, and knowledgeable managers they better hang on to those folks. They have to have a manager. They have to have an advisory board because they've got a part time Council here. That's where the buck stops and they know it. That is where it is on his level and he thinks all the other cities feel the same thing. There is renewed sense of responsibility and the elected people out there understand they are being held accountable because if they don't do it, there will be a referendum in November that will make them do something that they may not like. Unintended consequences and he doesn't want to see that and he knows none of his colleagues who are in an elected office want to see that. Ms. Bennington commented on the plans for the County always changing. Mr. Hayman commented on his administration having a part in Indian River Boulevard. He goes down Nova Road, which is also something that his administration had a part in. He goes down 44 and they are still working on that. That's something that his administration had a part in with three other cities. He goes to Daytona and he sees Page 7 of 10 Council Workshop January 17, 2006 things there that he had a small part in on the MPO. There has been great change and it has been beneficial to them. He looks at this city, he lives in this City and he loves this City. He could remember when they didn't have but just a few miles of paved road. He commented on the gut wrenching decisions that we went through. Nobody wanted to do it so they did it anyway. He then commented on the stormwater problem and taking care of the stormwater problem. They paved the roads. He spoke of the sewer plant being expanded so many times that he lost count. Why, because we had been discovered. That's a great accomplishment and they are still working on those things. In the works right now is to help Oak Hill really find itself and its way. They are going to see at some time, Volusia County and the City of Edgewater partnering with Oak Hill to help them out. They need it. If they don't they aren't going to have an Oak Hill. That's also a plan that's afoot. They had some plans that didn't work out and he was there. They have had some good ones and he is really proud of them. Mr. Henderson stated when the legislature passed the growth management act in 1985, there were a lot of them that hailed that as a great hallmark but guess what here it is 2006 now. What the Growth Management Act did was codified best management practices from a generation ago. They have to change. They couldn't have predicted what we've got now. This is not about bureaucracy. This is about empowerment of communities, local officials, about being nimble, being able to change and it's about outcomes. What do they want Edgewater to look like as it grows up and out because they can affect that through policies. And those are policies that the elected officials do, not the bureaucrats. That's what this is about, taking charge and empowering each of our communities to focus on the outcome. Oak Hill Vice Mayor Darla Lauer asked about the lagoons. Mr. Henderson informed her he thought there was an assumption that the areas around the lagoon are blue as part of the other corridors. When the Charter was amended to give the County the ability to adopt minimum environmental standards, the first one they did was to protect the Indian River Lagoon. So it's part of the core. That's one of those issues that they are going to have to work on together. Every community has a different take on what that's going to be. New Smyrna for instance has a height limitation. There are other communities north of Page 8 of 10 Council Workshop January 17, 2006 the inlet. They made a presentation to Ormond and there was a lot of discussion about that and just like the kind of idea they are doing in Ormond is the higher they go, the more they preserve. They have some access to the beach and they keep that shadow off the beach. That's a beach issue as opposed to intercoastal. But as the market is changing they are seeing more pressure to do these things so each community is going to have kind of make that value. They can anticipate that the market is going to drive for more condominium style development, more mid rises and high rises and each community is going to have to make it a sermon of what the standards are going to be for that. Obviously Oak Hill, they are going to need infrastructure. It is a resource that they need to figure out how to protect together. There is no question about that. Mr. Henderson commented on decisions that each community ultimately makes. Are they going to harden the shoreline? Are we going to have a setback? Are they going to protect natural vegetation and the buffer? Are they going to allow increased density and more protected areas? Those are all the variables that go into that and now it's caught up to Edgewater because no one wanted to do this before now so it's about a policy. So there are a number of competing aspects in that that will help them in dealing with that policy. The future is going to be more of this and not less. Mayor Thomas stated he was glad that he brought up the issue of stormwater because the drainage is very important. Our river doesn't look like the Halifax and we have to protect it and the runoff, the pesticide and the fertilizers and all that stuff and he has said before pretty soon those fish are going to glow in the dark and they can't eat them and that's one of their draws here. The people come to fish in the Indian River Lagoon. It was commercial fishing and now it's mainly sport fishing so he was going to be very aware of that on how he votes in the future. Mayor Thomas thanked Mr. Henderson, Mr. Storch and Ms. Langford. ADJOURNMENT There being no further business to discuss, the Workshop was adjourned. The meeting adjourned at 7:55 p.m. Page 9 of 10 Council Workshop January 17, 2006 Minutes submitted by: Lisa Bloomer, CMC Deputy City Clerk Page 10 of 10 Council Workshop January 17, 2006 A. EDGEWATER CITIZEN'S ALLIANCE FOR RESPONSIBLE DEVELOPMENT, INC. 1714 Edgewater Dr. Edgewater, FL 32132 January 17, 2006 City of Edgewater Honorable Mayor and City Commissioners: Greetings, my name is Dot Carlson, and I'm here this evening representing the Edgewater Citizen's Alliance for Responsible Development, an organization that has been formed to address the concerns of the citizens of Edgewater regarding the unbridled and unsustainable growth afflicting our community. Like so many other activist community groups around the state, we have determined that to properly protect the nature and personality of our community, we need to define certain important development do's and don'ts within our charter. Why? Because enshrined there, it cannot easily be changed. As we all know, any and all development criteria placed within the local codes and ordinances can and will be easily changed by the next group of elected officials by a simple vote. Here's the point of our being here tonight... We are sponsoring and currently circulating two charter amendments, one to require a Super - majority vote of the City council on all important land use changes, and the second, limiting the height of any building within our city limits to thirty -five feet. We've presented each of you with several copies of each and encourage you to sign one and return them to us, and to encourage others to do likewise, because, as you already know, to sign a petition merely places the matter on the ballot and gives all the voters in the community, the same folk who voted you into office, the opportunity to decide these important questions. Some have asked why a super- majority vote? The answer is simply that it raises the bar for deciding land use questions, most of which can drastically impact our quality of life, and many of which are decided now by close votes. Important matters such as the fate of an annexation, for instance, deserve requiring a higher standard for adoption. As you all know, as elected representatives of the different districts of our community, when you vote on an issue, you are supposed to be standing in the shoes of your constituents, and voting as they would vote. You represent their interests, not the developer's economic interests. There are many other growth issues which we believe need to be addressed such as limiting densities on new development to the natural, ecological carrying - capacity of the land itself upon which the project is proposed to be placed. We suggest that one way to approach this, without raising any issues of "taking" away the property owner's rights, would be for instance when considering proposed annexations, to limit the property owner to exactly the same density of development that he was entitled to when his property lay in the county. Let's look at three recent examples: 1.Oak Leaf Preserve on Mission Rd. According to the Volusia County Zoning Dept, when in the County, this property was zoned MH -4, designated for a future land use (FLU) of low - impact urban, but with ESC - Environmental Systems Corridor and RC, Resource Corridor overlays, which allowed only 1 dwelling unit per 25 acres because of the sensitivity of the land. Once annexed into Edgewater, somehow this developer was allowed ( ?zoning), with 55 foot wide lots, resulting in a possible gross density of 5? units per acre. 2. River Oaks Condominium, the developer is requesting to build two towers, 16 stories, 308 units, on 30 acres, resulting in a density of ?units per acre. In the County, this property was zoned R6W (urban 2 family residential), R4W( urban, single family residential) and I3W (waterfront industrial), urban medium intensity future land use, with entitlement to gross density of 4 to8 units per acre, or 240 units gross. 3. Reflections, 900 next to the 7000 acre Snowden Annexation, west of I -95 south of 442. In the County, with future land uses designated as Forestry Resource, Low - Impact Urban and Environmental Systems Corridor (FR has a density of 1/20 acres, LIU and ESC are 1/25). The 900 acres would carry a gross entitlement of 45 dwelling units.The developer is planning on asking Edgewater for zoning that will allow 1400 -1800 units. (email) All that the developers of the above three projects were entitled to was what their property had under the county jurisdiction since rezoning in the early 90's. To hold the above developers to the levels of density of development that they had when in the County would not represent any taking of their property rights. They have what they have. We do not wish to be engaged in discussions about specific development design issues such as "clustering ", "new urbanism" town centers, "multi- function open -space design" as these are are all secondary to our primary concern of allowing only sensible, sustainable, responsible development which corresponds to the natural carrying - capacity of the land and surrounding community. We would like to hold out this challenge to you as our leaders. This is an excellent opportunity for you as the elected representatives of the concerned citizens of our community to take a leadership role in making these, and other important changes, by adopting them as your own initiative and placing them on the ballot of the next general election, which you can do by simple vote. We thank you for the opportunity to speak. Dot Carlson, President