06-01-1991 - Special/Workshop
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CITY COUNCIL OF EDGEWATER
SPECIAL MEETING/WORKSHOP
SATURDAY, JUNE 1, 1991
MINUTES
Mayor Wessler called the meeting to order at 10:30 a.m. in the Community Center
for interview and selection of a City Attorney.
ROLL CALL
Mayor Tanya Wessler
Councilman Kirk Jones
Councilperson Louise Martin
Councilperson NoraJane Gillespie
Councilman Michael Hays
Interim City Attorney Nikki Clayton
Acting City Manager Fred Munoz
City Clerk Susan Wadsworth
Police Chief Lawrence Schumaker
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Arrived Later
Present
Present
Present
Judson I. Woods was the first applicant interviewed. Councilman Jones noted
Mr. Woods' past experience in Edgewater and with municipal law. He asked how
many cases he' shad in 1 it i gat i on or jury tr i a 1. Mr. Woods rep 1 i ed 30 jury
trials and he doesn't know how many non-jury, which is what most were.
Councilman Jones said he has experience writing ordinances and with Florida law.
He asked his concern with problems of Edgewater in the past compared to now with
growing pains. Mr. Woods replied he tried to keep them out of litigation as
much as possible and that should be a primary focus of a City Attorney, but if
someone's intent on suing, then negotiate for the best interest of the City.
Councilman Jones asked his areas of expertise he feels he can help with. Mr.
Woods replied a lot of his background is municipal law and zoning and he feels
he can give the primary amount of assistance. He added he's had Federal court
litigation and knows his way around Federal court and feels confident he could
handle that instead of having to seek outside counsel. Councilman Jones asked
his relationship with the City in the past. Mr. Woods replied about 5 years.
Councilman Jones asked if it was pleasant. Mr. Woods replied most of the time,
but there was a lot of dissention among most of the Council members and he sees
that as finished as this is a good working Council. He added he tried to come
up with workable solutions. Ms. Clayton arrived at the meeting at this time,
10:37 p.m. Councilman Jones asked his biggest accomplishment to help Edgewater
when he was here. Mr. Woods replied he spent a lot of time trying to develop
a comprehensive zoning plan and rewriting a municipal code and problems that
have been found were to be expected. Councilman Jones asked his experience with
real estate litigation. Mr. Woods replied he's litigated that area.
Mr. Woods asked if full time is cast in stone. Mayor Wessler replied yes. Mr.
Woods asked if Council would consider rather than going full time to use their
firm. He provided the Mayor with the cost for full time and Port Orange is
paying over $100,000 for an attorney and staff. Mayor Wessler explained they
initially went for outside and then voted for full time. Mr. Woods withdrew and
thanked Council for their time. Councilman Hays stated they've discussed this
several times and when he initially brought up the motion for full time repre-
sentation held mentioned it was to have depth and it's important to have someone
available, not a one-man band, a primary attorney they deal with on a full time
basis, and if he's out of town on vacation or for whatever reason then they have
representation. He said they should consider all the options. He noted they
have single individuals who have applied and it was discussed about having a back
up for him and if they don't continue to consider this they may sell themselves
short. He added he hopes it's not cast in stone and they knew Mr. Woods was a
member of the firm and served here and they're familiar with him and chose to
bring him in and held hate to see him withdraw.
Councilperson Martin asked if they'd use one firm but not sit 8 hours a day in
the office. Council person Gillespie stated she'd like to see his name stay
active because they'd said if they couldn't come up with some full time in house
then they might go back to the original idea with in house and a back up firm.
Councilperson Martin stated she's aware of his experience and she's attended
Council meetings when he was present and is aware he was very competent in what
he did for the City regardless of the back biting.
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Interview of Judson I. Woods (Continued)
Councilperson Martin asked if he has experience with bonding and grants. Mr.
Woods replied yes, they passed a $12 million dollar bond issue and he was primary
counsel and brought in a Jacksonville firm. He briefly reviewed that experience.
Councilperson Gillespie noted the home rule law came in after he was here. Mr.
Woods said he had some very volatile arguments with Council on what they could
and could not do and he convinced them they had a great deal of authority under
home rule. Council person Gillespie stated she's familiar with him and he's
familiar with the City and the area.
Councilman Hays asked about bonding not being as expensive as it has been some-
times and asked if he has any ideas or ways to save money on the present crp or
if it's too late. Mr. Woods replied it looks like it's too late but when they
select bond counsel they need to shop around because of the expense. Councilman
Hays asked if there's a conflict with his work with OSCC regarding the utilities
services or if that would be an asset. Mr. Woods replied he doesn't see a
conflict under the circumstances they're talking about now because it will be
the decision of Council and the OSCC board. Councilman Hays asked if will be
in the City's best interest from a business sense to do this. Mr. Woods replied
he doesn't foresee a problem and the decision will be made by both boards and
it will be what's in the best interest of the City. He added they may want to
hire someone briefly to review paper work.
Councilman Hays stated he thinks they should have equal, independent dealings
from the Mayor and Council and there should be no favorites played. He asked
how he'd approach the relationship between Council and attorney. Mr. Woods said
he tried to represent the City before and didn't take sides with people and he
represents the people of Edgewater through Council. He referred to past attempts
to influence matters and stated if he were selected he'd give his legal opinion
whether they like it or not.
Councilman Hays referred to some conflicts in the ordinances and asked how he'd
handle the removal of trees from the property. Mr. Woods suggested a Charter
Review Committee as other cities have with knowledgeable members of the community
and people familiar with the law to review ordinances and recommend improvements.
Councilman Hays stated they've had pending litigation from the past several
months, one was the street light ordinance that was repealed last year, and he
asked how he'd address this type of thing when another attorney was working with
it. Mr. Woods replied he'd have to get a perspective of what's going on and
determine the best way to handle it and it's hard to say without knowing what
litigation they're facing now.
Councilman Hays asked why he feels he's the best person for this job. Mr. Woods
replied because of prior experience and he's practiced law since 1966 and feels
he's quite capable and has had no problems with being able to handle work for
the cities he represents and OSCC. He added he thinks he'd do a good job. He
said he doesn't over-react and tries to take a view of saying there's a solution.
Councilman Hays stated they're looking for a person they can work with and has
a personality that will mesh and will get the job done and he requested Ms.
Clayton's input. Ms. Clayton asked Mr. Woods if he has any true rules to share,
which are answers to everything. She suggested they may want to go through
interviews and decide on a short list, and discussion of compensation should be
part of their decision making.
Mayor Wessler said they agreed to go for full time and if they're going for a
firm, then it's only fair to go back to the drawing board. Councilperson
Gillespie agreed, and as long as his name stays and they don't select someone
from the balance of the list, then they'll drop back to firms and that firm would
come up on the list.
Mayor Wessler asked the compensation the firm would charge. Mr. Woods replied
$90 a hour and copies and calls would be charged to the City. Mayor Wessler
asked why he left the City before. Mr. Woods replied he was terminated for
political reasons. Mayor Wessler noted she'd heard a lot of stories. Mr. Woods
said he felt at the time it was politically motivated. Mayor Wessler asked how
many businesses he owns besides the one. Mr. Woods replied only the one that's
his wife's store.
2 Council Special Meeting/Workshop
June 1, 1991
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Interv;ew of Judson I. Woods (Continued)
City Clerk Susan Wadsworth read a question submitted by Planning & Zoning
Director Mark Karet: Ideally, what role should each of the following play in
the planning and control of land development? The staff - Mr. Woods replied
staff has to be the key to the intake process on the zoning applications or when
requested by Council to evaluate any changes they may want with planning and
control of the City. The planning board or commission - Mr. Woods replied the
board or commission is an integral part of the process and they need to have a
good working knowledge of the ordinance and that are not politically influenced
and can render independent decisions that can be justified and upheld if they
go into court. The local governing body - Mr. Woods added that applies to the
local governing body of the City Council and they must rely on the staff and
decisions of the planning commission. He noted when he was City Attorney in the
past some appointments were made as political favors and that's not how it should
be done because of possible litigation. He added Mark Karet seems to know his
job very well.
Mrs. Wadsworth read the following two statements prepared by Mr. Karet: Which
of the two following statements do you feel most comfortable with? A. New
development is not an island, but merely a part of the whole which must mesh
efficiently with the existing pattern of development, as a result offsite
circumstances or concerns may reasonably form the basis for denying a site plan
or plat, or, B. The adequacy of a developer's plan or plat and its conformance
with the applicable regulations should form the sole basis for approval or
denial. Mr. Woods replied helll take answer A because they cannot rubber stamp
a developers plans and have to take all variables into account. He referred to
the Hunters Ridge Development approved over objections from Ormond Beach.
Mrs. Wadsworth read the following question from Fire Chief William Vola: What
is your experience with the Constitution and civil aspects of public health and
safety codes and their enforcement? Mr. Woods said they work with the safety
codes with SBCC almost on a daily basis with other cities his firm represents
and he worked with the inspector and Fire Chief when he was City Attorney before
and he's very familiar with it and feels he has enough background to give good
answers to any questions that arise.
There was brief discussion regarding questions submitted by Department Heads and
it was agreed to leave the list on the interviewee's table so they could respond.
Mayor Wessler asked if held render a personal rather than professional opinion
when rendering opinions to the City Council. Mr. Woods replied he would not give
his personal opinion because it would come back to haunt him and Council has to
make the decisions and helll give opinions based on the facts and law.
Councilman Jones stated nothing's cast in stone regarding a full time attorney
but they can pay a full time attorney for what they've been paying and it seems
easier for the community to get things going or when a staff member has a problem
to have a full time attorney. He asked what Mr. Woods' availability would be
and when they could get an opinion. Mr. Woods replied it would depend on what
the matter is but he tries to render prompt opinions and there's a toll free line
to his office plus they have a back up with Margaret Roberts and Coble and Morris
and are able to respond quickly. There was brief discussion regarding Sam
Owens leaving the firm.
Mayor Wessler recessed the meeting at 11:05 a.m. and called the meeting back to
order at 11:12 a.m.
George Sofranko was the next app 1 i cant to be i nterv i ewed.
explained the interview procedure.
Council person Martin asked if he's been involved in bonding and grants in
conjunction with a city. Mr. Sofranko replied to a small extent and he worked
with the Mayor of Craig Beach Village in Northeast Ohio and they did some work
in obtaining grants. Councilperson Martin asked if held relocate. Mr. Sofranko
sated he has a mild form of muscular dystrophy and has problems which mostly
exist in the winter time and he lives in a snow belt.
Mayor Wess ler
Councilperson Gillespie stated there's left over litigation, nothing extremely
involved, and they've been put on the back burner and will require a great deal
of time for a few months. She asked if that creates a problem. Mr. Sofranko
3 Council Special Meeting/Workshop
June 1, 1991
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Interview of George Sofranko (Continued)
replied he did some litigation in private practice and some for the Village of
Craig Beach and he puts in 15-18 hours a day normally.
Councilperson Gillespie stated welre undertaking a major capital improvements
program and selling bonds and securing low interest State loans. She asked if
he got his license as a preliminary to relocating here. Mr. Sofranko replied
yes, in 1984, and it was 6 months after he took the Ohio Bar and he had some jobs
in Ohio but now it's time to make a move here.
Councilman Hays asked why he feels he's the right and best person for the job
and what he thinks he can do for this City. Mr. Sofranko replied he feels he's
the best person and has had experience in Ohio working with a village of 4,500-
5,000 people. He reviewed the circumstances when he was swept into the position.
He stated he likes working with government and the people and doing all the types
of work a city would come up with. He stated held bring a hard work ethnic and
would put in long hours and mostly would be beneficial to whomever he's working
for. He said as a private attorney he's considered to be a hired gun and lots
of times people come in with unique questions and problems and he's a problem
solver. He said if he were hired, held bring his intelligence and a lot of hard
work. Councilman Hays asked if a hired gun is a problem solver. Mr. Sofranko
rep 1 i ed yes, you have to be prepared for anyone who comes through the door
because you don't know if it's a plaintiff or defendant and he's handled almost
everything.
Councilman Hays asked his experience with bond issues. Mr. Sofranko replied he
worked with development plans for federal grants for the Village but he's never
worked with bonding before. Councilman Hays asked if his move to Florida is a
stepping stone or a final destination. Mr. Sofranko replied it's more of a final
destination and he likes this part of Florida and this is where held ideally
like to be. He added he's a space buff and Cape Canaveral's down the road.
Mayor Wessler asked if held have much need for outside legal help. Mr. Sofranko
replied probably not and he was in a private solo practice and there were only
a few cases he referred out and those were medical malpractice cases which is
more of a legal specialty. He added if he doesn't know what the law is he has
no problem with looking it up.
Mayor Wessler asked if the salary is in the mid 301s. Mr. Sofranko replied
that's correct. Councilman Hays asked what else is tied to that. Mr. Sofranko
replied he worked on an hourly basis in Craig Beach and depending on what is
wanted, he could work on a flat salary basis or work out something like a step
scale for doing litigation work as opposed to general City business research type
work. Mayor Wessler stated Edgewater has a lot of City boards and some want the
attorney there so it might be 8 to 4 and then back for a 7 to 10 meeting. Mr.
Sofranko noted he did that in Craig Beach with Council people and with the water
and tax departments and acted as prosecutor along with keeping his private
practice and had no problems working his schedule around the Village's work.
Councilman Hays stated salary needs to be for so many hours they expect him to
work or it would be unfair. He asked how many hours held plan each week for
the low 30ls to be fair to each side. Mr. Sofranko replied he looked at 30-40
hour weeks. Councilperson Martin asked if it would be a special hourly rate for
anything over 40 hours. Mr. Sofranko replied that's entirely negotiable and he's
not sure it it's for private practice or exclusively for the City with no outside
practice. He added if he weren't permitted to have an outside practice held like
a slight increase for the City's work. Mayor Wessler stated they need to make
a selection and then go back to negotiations.
Councilman Jones asked how many actual court cases he dealt with and jury trial.
Mr. Sofranko replied 25-30 and there were some judge trials and some cases were
negotiated before trial started. Councilman Jones asked about real estate trans-
actions and litigation. Mr. Sofranko replied he had experience. Councilman
Jones asked how long it will take to adjust to Florida law and how familiar he
is with writing ordinances and in lay terms so people can understand. Mr.
Sofranko stated he doesn1t believe in legal ease because attorneys have been
trying too long to keep the public uninformed and there are some legal terms
which have to be used but mostly he tries to keep it as simple as possible so
the average person can understand what he's written. Councilman Jones said
Mr. Sofranko had told us he's a problem solver and we need that in Edgewater as
we want to eliminate problems to avoid litigation. He asked how we can keep from
4 Council Special Meeting/Workshop
June 1, 1991
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Interview of Paul H. Chipok (Continued) daily basis. He said he gets along with
most people and would be able to give them the bad news as well as good news.
He said held have to tell them things they wouldn't necessarily want to hear but
it would be his obligation to inform them of these aspects. He added if they
chose to waive the risk, then it would be his obligation to support that action
to the best of his abilities if it goes to litigation.
Councilman Hays asked about trial experience. Mr. Chipok replied he did a lot
of appellate work in Orange County, especially in land use related matters and
code enforcement board appeals and several cases went to the 5th District Court
of Appeals with one dismissed with the petition denied in their favor which
upheld the code enforcement boards as a Constitutional board. He added the
majority has been land use cases but he didn't do any eminent domain work. He
noted if it were up to his discretion regarding the self-insurance slip and fall
cases, held advise against it because itls very time consuming and is very paper
intensive and held try to see what type of outside counsel could handle that type
of case. He added tort litigation is difficult to keep up with and it takes a
lot of time to prepare for trial and it can usually be turned over to outside
counsel without much cost.
Councilman Hays asked his relationship with Volusia County when he worked with
New Smyrna Beach. Mr. Chipok replied he didn't have much contact except calls
to the County Attorney's office and he sat in on some Charter Review Committee
meetings to monitor proceedings and hels met Orange and Lee County officials at
various seminars.
Councilman Jones sated hels pretty experienced in municipal government. Mr.
Chipok noted that was a deliberate decision. Councilman Jones asked if that's
what held like to do and does he want to start a private practice. Mr. Chipok
replied for the time being. Councilman Jones stated we have a lot of things
before us and the community's had a lot of problems in the past. He asked if
a good problem solver would avoid litigation and compromise before they go to
court. Mr. Chipok replied in Orange and Lee Counties one of the primary things
he does is advise the various departments on a daily basis on how to proceed.
He said he feels hels a fairly good negotiator and he feels confident he can
recognize people1s problems. Councilman Jones asked if he's familiar with
writing ordinances and the Charter. Mr. Chipok replied he wrote many ordinances
and one for New Smyrna Beach was adult entertainment and hels done them in Orange
and Lee Counties.
Councilman Jones asked about labor relations. Mr. Chipok replied he hasn't had
a lot of experience in it and collective bargaining held anticipate to be a
challenge and not beyond his capabilities. Councilman Jones asked about real
estate laws and dealings. Mr. Chipok replied that1s where his main concentration
was with land use and working with zoning, building and planning departments on
long range and current planning, code enforcement department and engineering
which included engineering of roads and highways and stormwater.
Councilman Jones asked if he has a library of law books. Mr. Chipok replied the
New Smyrna Beach Library has a good law section and he spent a lot of time there
when he was with the city and if they're starting from scratch there would be
a need to budget over a period of time a library fund because it's essential to
have certain basic books such as Florida State Statutes as are updated every year
and certain periodicals on a legal basis that would be good to have for a
permanent library collection. He said he has a small working library he carries
with him and between that and the New Smyrna Beach Library he doesn1t foresee
a problem.
Councilperson Martin asked if held be firm and stick to his decisions regarding
law or allow himself to bend to anyone person's request. Mr. Chipok stated the
law is not firm and he's here to advise them as to parameters of the law. He
said the board would be his client and he'll advise them of the scope of the
issue they're addressing and it would be up the board to make the final decision.
Council person Martin asked how held gather information and experience about areas
that are new to him. Mr. Chipok replied law school doesn't teach the law, just
how to research and find answers and there are various legal publications that
give a broad overview of the law and there are legal education seminars and held
like to continue his legal education through various types of seminars on certain
issues.
6 Council Special Meeting/Workshop
June 1, 1991
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Interview of Georqe Sofranko (Continued) going to court and what a recommendation
would be to Council. Mr. Sofranko replied the best way to solve it is to keep
it from happening in the first place and if you can take the time to talk it out
and enter into some type of negotiations or system of mediation. He added court
is time consuming with time standing around and doing nothing.
Mayor Wessler stated Edgewater has one of the best Councils ever and they'd like
to try to avoid having the attorney voice his personal opinion instead of pro-
fessional opinion. She asked if held have a problem with that. Mr. Sofranko
replied that's what he tries to do and his personal opinion in City government
would not matter and he's tried to present as professional an opinion as he could
based on his understanding and comprehension of the law and to give the positive
and negative aspects for any type of problem or potential problem.
Ms. Clayton asked if he's familiar with the Florida system of growth management.
Mr. Sofranko replied no. Ms. Clayton explained local jurisdictions have to do
comprehensive planning according to certain standards. She asked if he has an
idea about law library requirements he might need. Mr. Sofranko replied he has
the entire Florida Code and the Ohio Codes and the complete u.S. Code. There
was brief discussion regarding appropriate information in a law library. Ms.
Clayton asked what type of student he was in school. Mr. Sofranko replied hard
working. Ms. Clayton asked if he was involved with intergovernmental bodies as
to overlap and interrelations. Mr. Sofranko replied with Mahoning County who
oversaw villages and cites in Ohio and they were trying to obtain money from the
villages and were successful to a small extent.
Meeting recessed at 11:30 a.m. Mayor Wessler called the meeting back to order
at 12:12 p.m.
Krista A. Storev - Ms. Storey had advised she'd be unable to attend because of
a family emergency.
Paul H. Chipok - Mayor Wessler explained the interview procedure. Councilperson
Gillespie asked about his experience in New Smyrna Beach. Mr. Chipok replied
he was there about 5 years ago and started as a law clerk and then passed the
Bar exam and moved into Assistant City Attorney and worked 1 year. Councilperson
Gillespie asked if he worked under the comp plan and growth management. Mr.
Chipok replied slightly, and he went over it in Lee County with the adoption of
their growth management plan and in Orange County they concluded hearings to go
to the County Commission. Councilperson Gillespie explained our position in the
settlement stage with DCA. She noted we're self-insured with an umbrella
policy. She asked what a community of 16,000 should do concerning insurance
problems. Mr. Chipok asked if it's a pool with self-insurance or totally self-
insured. Mr. Munoz explained we're self-insured to $300,000 and then Florida
League of Cities covers $1 million and then it's back to self-insurance. Mr.
Chipok asked if there's a risk management department. Mr. Munoz replied Florida
League provides the service under system 7. Mr. Chipok stated he's not that
familiar with the risk management process but has worked with insurance in a
poo 1 .
Councilperson Gillespie asked if he's used to city-county and interlocal agree-
ments and if he favors them. Mr. Chipok replied it depends on the relationship.
Councilperson Gillespie noted we're getting along very well.
Councilman Hays stated he's interested in equal and independent dealing between
a City Attorney and Council and feels that relationship should be a special and
professional relationship. He asked how Mr. Chipok views that and how he could
add to it. Mr. Chipok replied the role of City Attorney is a team player that
implements policies the board directs and they set the ordinances and then the
City Manager and City Attorney and staff plot the course to get to the ultimate
goal. He added the City Attorney would set forth pitfalls and traps that might
be along the way and what negative and positive affects they might have. He
noted held be obliged to point out pitfalls and benefits of pursuing certain
courses of action but the ultimate decision is up to Council.
Councilman Hays asked why he's the best person for this job and what he can do
for us. Mr. Chipok replied he has a sincere desire to live in this area on a
permanent basis and he started out here and his progression has been slowly
coming back to this year. He noted all the candidates are qualified and it's
a matter of who they'd feel most comfortable with giving them information on a
5 Council Special Meeting/Workshop
June 1, 1991
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Interview of Paul H. Chipok (Continued)
Mayor Wessler asked why he left New Smyrna Beach. Mr. Chipok replied he moved
to Lee County. He added New Smyrna Beach was his first job, he started as a law
clerk and pay was marginal but it was doing what he wanted to do and he gained
experience, then he took on a lot more responsibility at Lee County and increased
his salary.
Mayor Wessler asked if he has any pending lawsuits regarding any Edgewater
business or person. Mr. Chipok replied no. Mayor Wessler asked if he has any
personal business in Edgewater. Mr. Chipok replied no. Mayor Wessler asked if
held need outside legal counsel other than at the beginning. Mr. Chipok replied
he's aware that's very labor intensive and there may be an issue or dispute
that's extremely specialized and then with Council's approval held recommend
they have outside co-counsel and held work with that person and it would be very
case specific. Mayor Wessler asked if held have a hard time if Council decides
to go one way and he personally didn't agree. Mr. Chipok stated he keeps his
personal opinions to himself. Mayor Wessler asked about the salary of at least
$50,000. Mr. Chipok replied held expect with job responsibilities that would
be a good starting point. Mayor Wessler asked if that would include all the time
required for the City such as in the office daily and boards and Council meetings
at night. Mr. Chipok replied he's used to a salary arrangements and that's not
for a 40 hour week but for what it takes to get the job done.
Ms. Clayton asked if he developed a network of people held feel comfortable
calling upon between New Smyrna Beach and Lee and Orange Counties. Mr. Chipok
replied yes and he's on good terms with the Port Orange City Attorney, knows most
of the staff in Lee County, people in Cape Coral, and with Orange County. Ms.
Clayton asked if held be reluctant to call on others for friendly, free advice.
Mr. Chipok replied no, they're working for a common goal and the time he takes
from someone else, he'll freely give to someone else. Ms. Clayton asked if he's
prepared to enter into a stand alone office. Mr. Chipok replied he thinks he's
ready to take on that additional responsibility and it's the next logical step.
Ms. Clayton asked what type of student he was. Mr. Chipok replied diligent.
Mayor Wessler called a recess at 12:38 p.m. Chief Schumaker left the meeting
at 12:45 p.m. for another commitment. Mayor Wessler called the meeting back to
order at 12:46 p.m.
B. Randall Griffiths was the next applicant interviewed. Mayor Wessler reviewed
the interview procedure.
Councilman Hays stated they're trying to get an idea of the personalities they're
dealing with and finding a working relationship with individuals. He said the
association between Council and the City Attorney is special and he asked what
Mr. Griffiths thinks it should be. Mr. Griffiths replied it would have to be
very open with confidence between Council and the City Attorney whereby there's
trust in what the City Attorney says and trust that they seek the correct answer
and not just a particular point they may have. He added he sees the relation-
ship as assisting the community for the good and development of the community
with each member of the team, including the City Attorney, working for that
purpose. He said the primary role of the City Attorney is providing input or
information to the County and he doesn't see the role as being one to undertake
to establish guidelines on policies for the City or impose his opinion or point
of view. He added the City Attorney serves the Council and that would be his
function and responsibility and providing that information they deem necessary
on circumstances that may require they be given input if they're not considering
a certain point of view.
Councilman Hays asked why he feels he's the best person and if he has resources
available, such as a legal library and contact with other attorneys for consul-
tations for issues he might not have dealt with and where he doesn't have
expertise. Mr. Griffiths replied during the past 15 years he had no experience
on the law a City Attorney would be involved in but he feels he's qualified
because he spent those years training and educating himself as a trial attorney.
He noted you have to develop certain skills that include the ability to
interrelate with people and become proficient on a point of law or issue in a
short period of time. He added that's the abil ity to understand it and
communicate the information to other people and he feels he has that skill. He
pointed out one of the reasons he was a good trial attorney is he prides himself
and doesn't consider himself to be naturally brilliant and everything hels
7 Council Special Meeting/Workshop
June I, 1991
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Interview of B. Randall Griffiths (Continued) achieved has been because he's
willing to put the time into it. He stated his success as a practicing attorney
is a quality he feels he has because he hates to lose and hates to be caught off
guard on any point and will strive to be sure he's not caught in that position.
He added he feels he has the qualities to step over from trial to City Attorney
and has dealt with cities and Federal governments and has become proficient in
those issues and wouldn't feel held have any problems. He said he doesn't have
a library and does have a close relationship with the St. Pete City Attorney and
has known the Assistant City Attorney and staff for years and has been invited
to practice with the City Attorney's office and could make those contacts for
inquiry. He pointed out as a trial attorney one of the skills is to find
resources so you can get information to substantiate your position. Councilman
Hays asked if he went to Stetson. Mr. Griffiths replied yes. Councilman Hays
asked if he was a good student. Mr. Griffiths replied he graduated with honors.
Councilman Jones asked why he's leaving the trial type career and heading toward
municipal government. Mr. Griffiths replied several factors came together and
the opportunity's available and he knows few in private practice who didnlt dream
of leaving it if they could maintain their standard of 1 iving. He said he
doesnlt believe he can do that but has reconciled himself and he had been married
18 years and the marriage came to an end 2 years ago and changed his life style.
He noted his parents became ill and his family lives in Deland. He reviewed the
consulting work in Europe and that held just returned from 4 months in
Switzerland. He stated held tailored his career with a long term objective to
become a judge and everything he did was toward that goal and as he came closer,
he became aware of the responsibilities of a judge and no longer wants to do that
and since he didnlt intend to have a private practice the rest of his life, he
determined to terminate his private practice. Councilman Jones asked if, since
hels not real knowledgeable of municipal dealings, he feels he can obtain it
within a reasonable amount of time and research work because of importance of
the land use laws and real estate dealings and writing ordinances and
resolutions. Mr. Griffiths replied he wouldn't have applied if he didn't feel
qualified and he has a personality that wouldn't permit him to sleep at night
if he's not giving 100% to what he's doing and will become educated very quickly.
Councilman Jones asked if he did a lot of court and jury trials. Mr. Griffiths
replied yes. Councilman Jones asked his best advice for the City to stay out
of litigation. Mr. Griffiths replied it's to spend a lot of time in the inter-
view process and be sure they have a City Attorney they feel comfortable with
who has knowledge and will give them good advice as the certain issue arises.
He stated therels no way now to tell them they can stay out of litigation as
that's impossible no matter how protective you are and anyone can sue for any
reason and it's not until the end of litigation as to whether it was just cause.
He added they can stay out of litigation by having someone who does meticulous
work and besides dotting the lis and crossing Tis has the foresight of knowing
whether that's produced or any action taken by Council has potential of going
to litigation at some point in the future. He said held look at things from that
perspective with his trial experience and plan for it and try to circumvent it.
He explained a lot of litigation comes about because of unreasonableness of the
attorney involved in the process and being unwilling to listen or negotiate with
the other side and he doesn't believe in that and believes in principles. He
added a responsible City Attorney will look at the situation from an objective
point of view and not from a personal point of view.
Councilperson Martin asked what salary's expected. Mr. Griffiths replied the
salary he made in private practice was very substantial and he couldnlt put that
large amount there and he asked the salary range that would be offered to a City
Attorney and then he could consider it. Ms. Clayton explained the ad said it
was commensurate with experience and they have the ranges from Florida league
of Cities. Mayor Wessler asked the ranges. Ms. Clayton replied they look at
a range from $35-100 and look at years of experience so you can't publish that
range. Mayor Wessler noted the other applicants have given their range.
Mayor Wessler asked if he's familiar with the Volusia City County Water
Cooperative. Mr. Griffiths replied no. Mayor Wessler explained it kind of
splits the east and west. She asked if he owns any ferneries there. Mr.
Griffiths replied no. Mayor Wessler asked if his family does. Mr. Griffiths
replied no, and explained this is a temporary address and he sold his home in
St. Pete and went to Europe but wh il e he I s app lyi ng that I s the address. He
stated if he were hired held move to this area because he thinks it would be
8 Council Special Meeting/Workshop
June 1, 1991
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Interview of B. Randall Griffiths (Continued) appropriate to know the City he
represents and would want to be a part of it. Mayor Wessler explained they're
trying to get that part of the County into the Cooperative but they don't want
to participate. Mayor Wessler asked if held retain outside legal counselor if
he'd rely on calling St. Pete and if he foresees anything else since he doesn't
have government experience. Mr. Griffiths replied he could answer no other than
resources he has and could develop on day to day work but some litigation is so
complex that for him to apply all his time to becoming proficient would interfere
with his duties to Council on current issues and he'd probably recommend Council
hire outside legal counsel for something of that nature.
Mayor Wessler asked if he could separate personal from professional opinions.
Mr. Griffiths replied that's the hallmark of a professional and he1s very
op i n i onated and very ded i cated to someth i ng he be 1 i eves in but knows the
difference between his opinion and responsibilities and all his career has been
to distinguishing and separating those.
Councilperson Gillespie stated we're in the process of going to bond for CIP and
asked if he could handle the City's part of bonding even if we have outside bond
counsel. Mr. Griffiths replied there's a substantial difference between a public
offering and municipal offering of bonds but he feels he could become proficient.
He added St. Pete just went through an involvement in that aspect with a new
stadium and downtown redevelopment and held have no problems since the resources
of the issue are available. Councilperson Gillespie stated we've put several
things on the back burner for a full time in house attorney and this will be a
first. She reviewed standard practice in the past with attorneys bringing
ordinances from other cities and said she has no problem with that. She asked
if he1s familiar with tort law that's time consuming. Mr. Griffiths replied he's
not proficient on environmental law but sees it as an area where municipalities
will become more and more involved and held have to become absolutely proficient
with the water problems they're having. He added he might request outside help
if an environmental issue were to come up but he wouldn't foresee tort law
needing outside counsel because he's had a lot of experience.
Councilperson Gillespie stated we're self-insured with assistance from Florida
League of Cities and then it comes back on us. She said the Planning staff has
worked long and hard on the Comp Plan and asked if he'd be available to the
departments and boards and Council. Mr. Griffiths replied yes, the City.
Councilperson Gillespie stated the Fire Chief asked if he's familiar with the
Life codes. Mr. Griffiths replied from a trial aspect but he couldn1t recite
any of them. Councilperson Gillespie asked if he did any public road rights of
way or eminent domain. Mr. Griffiths replied he represented private individuals
who were contesting those issues from municipalities.
Ms. Clayton asked if he has experience with Federal statutes pertaining to
liability at the municipality level. Mr. Griffiths replied nothing comes to
mind. Ms. Clayton asked about civil rights. Mr. Griffiths replied yes, for
civil rights actions and mandated to Federal actions, one against St. Pete and
one Pinellas County. Ms. Clayton and Mr. Griffiths briefly discussed litigation
and the judicial system being based on an adversarial system. Mr. Griffiths
noted he's been very actively involved in arbitration and mediation at the State
and Federal level and when the Bar Association looked into the mediation process
he was on the committee that drafted some preliminary codes and has been actively
involved since that time. He said you have to fight if you're going to prevail
and St. Pete has a good reputation and stops some frivolous litigation.
Mayor Wessler called a recess at 1:18 p.m. and called the meeting back to order
at 1:20 p.m.
Kim O'Connor was the last applicant to be interviewed and she apologized for
being late. Mayor Wessler explained the interview procedure. Mayor Wessler
asked if she1s had city government experience. Ms. O'Connor replied almost 2
years at Key West. Mayor Wessler asked about County experience. Ms. O'Connor
replied none. Mayor Wessler asked what makes her want to change. Ms. O'Connor
rep 1 ied she enjoyed her work in Key West and she I s worked on environmental
issues. Mayor Wessler stated we try to work as a team and want the attorney to
be a part of that team and she believes the attorney carries out policies and
Council makes them. She asked if Ms. O'Connor has a problem with that. Ms.
O'Connor replied she doesn't have a problem in the abstract and will resign
before she'd carry out an incorrect policy.
9 Council Special Meeting/Workshop
June 1, 1991
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Interv;ew of K;m O'Connor (Continued)
Mayor Wessler asked if she felt she should get involved in politics. Ms.
O'Connor replied she was ;nvolved in politics in Tallahassee and that's why she
left. Mayor Wessler asked if she felt she'd need to go outside to other law
firms. Ms. O'Connor replied no matter what the size of town you deal with all
the issues of a larger town and you cannot develop an expertise in all areas and
bonding would require outside counsel.
Councilperson Gillespie stated we have a bonding attorney and the City's going
out for $19 million in bonds and is securing State Revolving Fund loans similar
to DOT procedures, which she's familiar with. Ms. O'Connor noted she worked with
the Department of Insurance. Councilperson Gillespie stated Ms. O'Connor's done
a lot of research work and has a library available. She explained books we have
are what we got back from the part time attorney so until the next budget the
researching would be at the City libraries. She asked if Ms. O'Connor receives
legal periodicals that she'll get when she relocates here. Ms. O'Connor replied
no. Councilperson Gillespie asked if she's familiar with the area. Ms. O'Connor
replied no, but she read they're getting 1,000 people a year and she'd be one
of them. Councilperson Gillespie stated we're very environmenta lly invo lved here
with two total environmentalists and are going into effluent reuse. She added
we settled the lawsuit by the environmental groups and are in the process of
having to write many more ordinances and codes involving the environment. She
pointed out Ms. O'Connor's been involved with rights of way and environmental
work. Ms. O'Connor stated she enjoyed that part of her job in Key West.
Councilman Hays asked why she thinks she's the best person for this job and what
she can do for the City the others cannot. Ms. O'Connor replied she's here to
present herself and agrees it's a team and Council has to pick the person they
feel will be the best member of the team. She said she's had varied experience
with State government and allover the State and she thinks they'd get someone
with a broad base level of experience but the most important thing is the team
work because they'll each bring expertise to the direction the City will go.
Councilman Hays asked what she thinks the association and relationship between
Council and the City Attorney should be as a member of the team and how should
this mesh together. Ms. O'Connor replied she was associated with an open door
policy and any employees, any director, or Council member would be welcome and
you work on whatever's on their mind. Councilman Hays asked if it was time
consuming. Ms. O'Connor replied it was for the attorney at Key West. Councilman
Hays asked how many hours she foresees. Ms. O'Connor replied about 60 hours a
week but she doesn't know about Council meetings. Mayor Wessler noted we have
long meetings. Councilman Hays asked how long it would take to relocate to this
area. Ms. O'Connor replied about a month.
Councilman Jones pointed out she's a certified general contractor and knows a
lot about dealings of contractors with municipalities to get things done, such
as subdivisions. Ms. O'Connor stated she can talk to anyone in the contracting
field and has that knowledge. Councilman Jones asked if she's had impact fee
experience. Ms. O'Connor reviewed the Key West matter with dumping of sewage
into the water and the Federal mandates to stop with a requirement to develop
facilities to treat effluent. Councilman Jones stated she's made good contacts
to call for expertise if there's a problem and she knew Senator Hawkins. He
asked what advice she can give to help them because they're directing the
community on what way to go and they need a problem solver. Ms. O'Connor replied
it would have to be on a case by case basis because there are department heads
and City Manager and some citizens and if each has a position and wants legal
support then she could provide it but it would be a political decision and there
are different policies to consider. Councilman Jones asked how many court cases
she's been involved in. Ms. O'Connor replied jury trials are her weaknesses and
she has bench trial, hearings, motions, and administrative hearings, but they'd
need to hire someone else if jury trials are important.
Councilperson Martin stated she can research and prepare local ordinances and
has experience in impact fees and land use and gives advice to boards and
processes municipal code violations. She added she has insurance code violation
experience and handles personnel matters and appeals, which is very important.
She added she feels she has a good background.
Ms. Clayton complimented Ms. O'Connor on the voluntary forwardness of her
answers. She asked what she does for DOT. Ms. 0' Connor replied she is with
condemnation and right of way and real estate and eminent domains. Ms. Clayton
10 Council Special Meeting & Workshop
June 1, 1991
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Interv;ew of K;m O'Connor (Continued) asked if her background as a contractor
makes her more able. Ms. Clayton replied it makes her inept. Ms. Clayton asked
if they have a lot of ongoing eminent domain. Ms. O'Connor replied yes. Ms.
Clayton noted the City will have acquisition work as part of the CIP. Ms.
O'Connor briefly reviewed work done by DOT in District 5. Ms. Clayton asked if
intergovernmental relations entered into her experience and if she liked it.
Ms. O'Connor replied she feels her skills are in that area. Ms. Clayton asked
about negotiations. Ms. O'Connor replied she feels she's a favorite negotiator.
Ms. Clayton asked if she1s prepared to undertake a sole practice because she'd
be doing almost everything. Ms. O'Connor replied she'd need to know she had
adequate staff but has had a private practice. Ms. Clayton asked if it would
be clerical. Ms. O'Connor replied for research she1d want to turn to a firm in
Tallahassee, Washington, or Gainesville.
Mayor Wessler noted Ms. O'Connor estimated her salary would be about $40,000.
There was discussion about interviewing Ms. Storey who was unable to attend due
to a family emergency. Mayor Wessler suggested they adjourn and not make a
decision until they meet with her.
Ms. Clayton outlined what she feels are functions of a City Attorney. She said
regarding finances, they have a number of people on the finance team and a City
Attorney doesn1t generally have a part in how the bonds are to be marketed, the
function is to opine what1s generally drafted by bond counsel, who will tell the
bond buyer the functions the City had to perform to get to the stage of selling
bonds were performed according to law and practice in that jurisdiction. She
reviewed an experience in Seminole County with bonding. She said the City
Attorney would only give an opinion as to regularities of the City in adopting
the resolution. She added bond counsel is very complex and you cannot arbitrage
and it requires highly qualified bond counsel. She stated they should look to
the City Attorney for judgement and competence calls on the other professionals.
She said SRF is not complicated but they need someone to look at protection of
the City because the State will try to tie up the money they give to the City.
Ms. Clayton stated Councilman Jones had questions about jury trials but local
governments seldom get to jury trials unless it's eminent domain and perhaps
they want to find ability to do research and motion practice up front because
that's where the majority of the work is dispensed of. She said they need to
look at how often they request outside counsel because they don1t want to do that
when it's work the attorney should be doing. She noted there could be complex
litigation or other issues come up and theylll need an expert and while jury
trials are important experience to have, that can be compensated for with good
motion and administrative hearings and a good network to call upon.
Mayor Wessler stated they have to decide if they want to go with a firm or
individual. Councilman Hays stated everyone they've talked with is qualified
and it's their choice of wholll do the best job. He expressed serious
reservations with a single in-house person and said he still leans towards more
depth than just one person. He sa i d they need to dec i de if they make th i s
decision totally or go another step further and have the first pick or first two
or three and turn this over to legal counsel for advice. He pointed out when
they decide on who the next City Attorney will be, they need to establish a date
when they turn this entirely over and sever relationships with Ms. Clayton
because it's unwise to hire one day and ask her to leave the following day. He
added they have existing issues that need followed through and they need to look
at that. Ms. Clayton asked if it would be local legal attorneys interviewing
as blue ribbon. Councilman Hays referred to Ms. Clayton1s earlier mention about
a committee. Ms. Clayton explained perhaps 3 or 5 private attorneys in the area
can give them guidance and screening, but generally that's done before interviews
to deve 1 op the 1 i st for i nterv i ew. She noted they've done a good job of
selecting except for some she would have selected. She said they could get to
a point with 2 or 3 people and do a background check and then they could ask for
an informal screening by some local practitioners meeting to give their input.
Councilperson Martin asked if they could make a decision on what they have now
and then have Ms. Storey and if a corporation comes up the winner, then go back
and look at other firms. She added if the person chosen as #1 isn't a firm,
they'll have no problem. Mayor Wessler stated they have to decide if they want
a firm or an individual and if they want to pay $90 an hour for 20 hours a week
it would be about $90,000 a year. Councilperson Martin stated that would
11 Council Special Meeting/Workshop
June 1, 1991
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probably wash it out and they wouldn't go with firms. Mayor Wessler noted Ms.
Storey won't make the decision of whether they want a firm or individual who
stays with them all the time. Councilman Jones stated he thought they'd gone
over that and he was convinced by Ms. Clayton that what they're paying for
outside they could pay for in house so why pay the same for part time that you
could pay for a full time. He added he thinks they'll get faster results on some
things that need to be done. He said he had to drive to Deland for Mr. Alvarez
and sometimes he doesn't like to talk on the telephone but wants to talk face
to face. He pointed out they've already advertised once for a firm and then
advertised for in house and it's time to do something. Mayor Wessler suggested
they consider the number of issues that come up and since Ms. Clayton's been
attorney she cannot give attention and time to get things done as she represents
other clients. She noted one of the things is the zoning and holding off renters
because the lady can't get the legal documents and another is Mr. McGregor.
Councilperson Gillespie stated the plate gets so full for whoever's in that
position and things start to falloff and you have to go with the major issues
that have to be handled. She referred to the pending Jiffy issue. She stated
she'd prefer to go in house but doesn't think it's fair for the lady who had the
family emergency not to listen to her. She added she has no problem with using
a firm within the County that this attorney can deal with if they don't have to
give them a retainer. She noted they have bond counsel on board and other than
environmental doesn't feel they'll need a back up.
Councilman Jones asked Mr. Munoz about the financial capability of going full
time in house. Ms. Clayton replied with the $50,000 quotes leaves about $5,000
to retain additional specialty work if needed and the legal budget will probably
come out ahead with the number of hours they'll need. Mr. Munoz stated he
supports in house and sees it working both ways as it does in other cities. He
said the City of Tavares had a firm with a City Attorney as one individual and
sometimes they have a specialty, such as labor, and they got specialists from
Orlando. Councilman Jones said he's for it and they need a lot of things cleared
up and in-house can do it.
Councilperson Martin stated from opinions expressed the last few minutes they'll
pick from 5 candidates and shouldn't consider going to companies or firms.
Mayor Wessler asked Mrs. Wadsworth to set up an appointment for Ms. Storey.
After brief discussion it was agreed to meet at 6 p.m. on Monday if she's
available and to meet at that time if she's not any longer interested.
Councilperson Gillespie stated they need a consensus of Council and then a second
because Mr. Munoz will start the background. Mayor Wessler suggested the top
two scores. Councilperson Gillespie stated whoever they hire has to know the
contract will be reviewed by an outside firm.
Councilman Hays moved to adjourn.
Meeting was adjourned at 2:12 p.m.
Minutes submitted by:
Lura Sue Koser
Councilman Jones seconded the motion.
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CITY CLERK
Approved th i s l.I::laay of
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12
Council Special Meeting/Workshop
June 1, 1991