01-23-1991 - Workshop/Special
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CITY COUNCIL OF EDGEWATER
WORKSHOP/SPECIAL MEETING
JANUARY 23, 1991
MINUTES
Mayor Wessler called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. in the Community Center.
ROLL CALL
Mayor Tanya Wessler
Councilman Kirk Jones
Councilperson Louise Martin
Councilperson NoraJane Gillespie
Councilman Michael Hays
City Attorney Jose' Alvarez
City Manager Elly Johnson
City Clerk Susan Wadsworth
Police Chief Lawrence Schumaker
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
Absent
Present
Present
Excused
Lieutenant McEver was present to represent the Police Department.
There was a pledge of allegiance to the Flag as requested by Mayor Wessler due
to the occurrences overseas.
RESOLVING THE CITY ATTORNEY ISSUE
Ms. Nikki Clayton, lawyer with Baker & Hostetler, stated she discussed with each
member of Council the purpose of her being retained and would like to make a
coup le of observations. She said there are five new Council members since
November and there's a very high level of citizen interest judging by attendance.
She commended the citizenry. She stated they have several issues of great
importance and urgency and they have deadlines. She noted they have the Capital
Improvements Program and Comprehensive Plan and those things have produced a lot
of conflict and they have many sides the new Council will have to take into
account. She said after discussions with each of them she thinks they've given
her a great deal of hope and this is the American idea of what government is all
about. She sa i din the techn i ca 1 term they may be II green II but she's not met
anyone that's not completely dedicated who has directed her that in this
resolution to the City Attorney issue they want it handled with the utmost
professionalism and everyone being able to save face if possible. She said she
tried to determine the reasons that each had for lack of confidence in the
Attorney. She said keeping in mind they want to respect the tenure of the City
Attorney with 9 years and his professional status and to avoid any unnecessary
conflict if possible and reach a fair and reasonable resolution, she reviewed
his contract and there are some things there that trouble her because there's
only one method to terminate it without financial hardship on the City. She said
that one method requires them to hold hearings and find misfeasance or
malfeasance or nonfeasance on the part of the City Attorney. She noted to do
that they have to go through an investigative process, hold hearings, ask
unpleasant questions, and evaluate the professional judgement that's been
delivered over the course of time which caused them to observe and have these
questions and concerns with their confidence which makes them want to select
their own attorney. She said in the ethical precepts of the professional code
that regulates attorneys it is recognized that without question the client has
a right to select his attorney and at the point he loses confidence in that
attorney he may termi nate that profess i ona 1 re 1 at i onsh i p and the attorney's
obligated to make that known to the client. She said if it's not made known to
the client, it's an overlooked responsibility on the part of the professional
in informing the client. She said the contract and the minutes around it are
silent concerning that.
Ms. Clayton stated if they don't wish to find through a public hearing
misfeasance, malfeasance or nonfeasance, they may terminate the contract but then
it provides they must pay the balance of the contract which is 2 years, it's
renewed for a period of 2 years. She noted if they were to apply the terms to
the affect, they have a prior Council having selected an attorney that's binding
on a new Council which has the right to select their own attorney in whom they
have confidence. She said this wasn't clear under the contract and it wasn't
discussed by Council in the last 8-9 years in the minutes. She said when she
was asked to assist in this situation she told them it would be for a limited
purpose and she's tried to maintain it in that limited respect and tried to talk
to Bill Shepard, attorney for Jose' Alvarez, on a number of occasions and he's
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Resolv;na the C;tv Attornev ;ssue (Continued)
put in writing the offers by his client for settlement. She said she outlined
those in her letter that was distributed a week ago, and again distributed copies
to Council. She said in reviewing Mr. Shepard's letters she prepared her own.
Ms. Clayton summarized her recommendations: Council expressed a lack of confi-
dence and indicated they wanted to avoid unnecessary conflict and she was asked
to negotiate a reasonable resolution that would have been a way for each to
achieve what they'd like, for Council to select their own attorney and Josel
Alvarez to be able to say he served well and was happy with the resolution. She
added then on December 17th Council said it was not in fact just the person but
the structure of the way legal serves were provided and they'd like someone full
time in house so staff could reach the attorney at crucial moments when decisions
had to be made. She said they authorized a search to begin to find another
attorney and that was not a termination of the existing contract, but a beginning
to restructure the technique given the fact negotiations were going on with the
City Attorney still under contract. She stated Josel Alvarez is currently paid
$2,500 a month retainer and on an hourly basis for work he performs. She said
his original contract in 1982 provided $1,000 a month and they have two choices
to offer as a resolution to Mr. Alvarez that would be different than his
proposals to them. She said he values his contact at about $110,000 and says
held take $55,000 and her suggestion is the existing contract calls for $1,000
a month retainer although the number's been raised in the minutes but it was
never referred back to the clause in the contract. She said she thinks she could
argue to a judge the $1,000 is what is called for in terms of damages under the
contract and if that's the case he has 22 months in the rest of his contract.
She said if you multiply 22 months times $1,000 it is $22,000. She said she took
another technique that's standard practice where they have an at will employee
that's full time in house and will be terminated and quite often they pay one
month's salary for each year of service and in this case he's worked 9 years and
at the current retainer of $2,500 it would be $23,500. She said she looked at
the two figures and the fact that he's been here 9 years and served the City well
and he's a professional and there's been no acrimony and if they get into a
declaratory judgement, litigation and questions back and forth about whether he
provided the correct kind of legal advice or not could produce about that amount
of money as a potential risk to the City in attorneys fees, court costs and
other penalties.
Ms. Clayton recommended in view of the fact Mr. Alvarez's suggestion about what
he thinks is fair is somewhat exaggerated, Council consider adopting one or the
other of the interpretations, either $22,000 or $23,500, based on which they'd
like to use as a basis for calculating what they'd like to offer Mr. Alvarez in
thanks for his many years of service. She said she'd give him 48 hours, but
since this is Wednesday, and 48 hours would be the end of Friday, she'd say noon
Monday to tell them he'll accept it. She added barring his acceptance by noon
Monday, then because of discussions with members of Council she believes there
are adequate reasons for them to ask for a hearing for termination for cause
based on misfeasance or nonfeasance and those things will require investi-gation
and verification. She added from interviews and review of some of the minutes
she feels there are adequate areas for questions they might wish to consider if
he decides not to accept their offer. She stated the next opportunity in terms
of the termination would be to challenge the ambiguity of his contract with the
City as it's not a model of clarity. She added she thinks she could persuade
the court that it should be construed against the person who drafted it and she
feels she could prevail in terms of ambiguity of the contract. She said if he
fails to accept the offer she recommends by noon Monday, she would recommend
all bets are off and they start from the beginning and determine if their
feelings have more substance and begin the hearing.
Mayor Wessler asked for any audience comments before Council makes a decision.
Alice Murphy, 230 N. Riverside Drive, stated when a contract's terminated and
the one whose contract is terminated demands payment to the end of the original
contract, in effect asking payment for duties not performed, it can be construed
as payment for loss suffered as a result of the contract termination. She said
she understands Mr. Alvarez wears many hats, he's the attorney for Orange City,
former attorney for Edgewater, owner and operator of a fernery near Deland, and
connected with the Deltona Fire District, and has a private practice, so it's
hard to imagine this attorney will suffer a loss by being relieved of his duties
of Edgewater's attorney. She referred to only having 24 hours a day. She asked
2 Council Workshop/Special Meeting
January 23, 1991
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Resolving the City Attorney issue (Continued)
Alice Murphv (Continued) if Edgewater will pay Mr. Alvarez while he's working
for someone else. She said it's regretted the former Council didn't limit his
contract to the length of their concurrently expiring terms. She noted the
majority of new Council members want to pick their own attorney. She said Mr.
Alvarez was quite popular with members of former Councils, some enjoyed parties
at his home and boat rides and free legal advice. She asked if those enjoyed
social activities hosted by Mr. Alvarez as well as free legal advice created a
climate that would be embarrassing for the participants to shorten Mr. Alvarez's
contract. She stated the money won't come exclusively from the pockets of those
who released him, but from the pockets of the citizens.
Norman Hi 11ups stated lost confidence, trust and integrity in an employee
suggests summary dismissal without contractual remuneration by the City Council.
He said all City employees, professional or contractual, serve at the Council's
pleasure and they should be paid only for the previous work performed, example,
Federal and State governments have set a precedent.
Doris Hill, 112 Lincoln Road, stated she was not on the river riding with Mr.
Alvarez but as a taxpayer she respectfully asked them to reconsider the ill-
advised firing of Mr. Alvarez as City Attorney for no reason and against the
advice of their self-appointed $165 per hour attorney. She stated their actions
have left the City vulnerable to a lawsuit that could be extremely costly to
taxpayers. She said there were many accusations and insinuations made during
the election campaign against Mr. Alvarez and not one has been substantiated and
a 11 comments made at City Counc i 1 meet i ngs unt i 1 ton i ght have pra i sed Mr.
Alvarez's performance and service to the City with not one word from his
accusers. She asked why they remain silent when they're the motivating force
behind the action taken. She stated they fired Mr. Alvarez under the pretext
of a contractual problem and without granting a hearing and they are demanding
he step down when to do so leaves a cloud hanging over him, impugning his
integrity and professionalism, and that's unfair. She said the City doesn't
deserve it, nor does Mr. Alvarez deserve it. She said to clear his name from
his accusers, they put him in a position that any Council is not held to any
contract not directly executed by said Council. She asked why anyone would want
to enter into a contract with the City. She said this will set a precedent and
there is more at stake here than Mr. Alvarez. She asked if they must go back
to the time when the special interests ran the City. She implored them to have
an open hearing so both sides can be heard as they shouldn't have to fight it
in court, which could be very costly to taxpayers. She pointed out they promised
to save the City money but how can this save money. She said the City and boards
need an attorney and Mr. Alvarez has a proven record and this is not the time
to disrupt the heart of this government.
Ms. Clayton stated Mr. Alvarez has not yet been fired, he has been in a state
of limbo, and that's important, and that's why she suggests they put a time limit
on this resolution because she believes they do need an attorney. She added each
Council member has told her they want this handled with the utmost profession-
alism and there's been no effort to impugn anyone's reputation and there's no
intent to do anything other than protect the interest of the City. She said it's
important to give meaning to Mr. Alvarez's contract even though it flies in the
face of the rights of the client to select their own attorney.
Malcolm Heffley, 325 Schooner, stated Mrs. Hill had said what he'd wanted to.
He asked why, because of the taxpayers' expense i nvo 1 ved, he was fired. He asked
why he heard rumors before the election that he'd be taken care of. Mayor
Wessler replied they're trying to reach a settlement with Mr. Alvarez rather than
airing their dirty laundry in public.
Henrv Dardinski, 2704 Sabal Palm, stated he's a retired attorney from Massa-
chusetts. He said they shouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water. He
said the primary problem now is the CIP and they had an attorney for 9 years and
he lived with this situation and has written up a similar situation for Orange
City. He pointed out they're under deadline and have until March 12th to come
up with a resolution and have an ordinance drawn and they're wasting their time
and taxpayers' time worrying about getting rid of a City Attorney. He stated
they could have lived with him until they got the CIP program and bonding and
they could lose the grant and the 15 million at 4.6%. He said there's a time
for everything and they shouldn't shoot themselves in the foot. He added they
could have kept the man on and got the CIP on the road and then sat down and told
3 Council Workshop/Special Meeting
January 23, 1991
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Resolving the City Attorney issue (Continued) him they're not happy with what
he's done in the past and come to a conclusion. He added if he was the attorney
and found the City Council didn't care for his services he wouldn't want the bad
publicity and held shake hands and walk away. He stated he doesn't think they
handled it right but they haven't gone to court yet and they'll get tied up and
it will cost taxpayers money. He noted in the meantime the crp is on hold and
they need this man. He asked they keep him and get the crp on the road and then
do what they want.
Gigi Bennington stated she never went to Mr. Alvarez's parties or went on a boat
ride or got free legal advice as a Councilman. She said on December 17th the
motion was made to advertise for a City Attorney, it was seconded, and then
amended to advertise for a full time attorney. She added then Mayor Wessler said
it would be to release Mr. Alvarez from his contract to look for a full time
attorney. She stated that basically tells them he's released from his contract.
She said she worked with Mr. Alvarez 4 years, five Councils have gone with him,
and she doesn't think anyone had too much problem with his services. She pointed
out while he was City Attorney he instituted a self-insurance program that's
saved them thousands in insurance premiums and they have a million plus there,
and he's got hundreds of thousands of dollars in lawsuits filed against the City.
She pointed out there's a second contract with the City for the crp at $75 an
hour. She asked if they're releasing him from his contract as City Attorney or
the other contract that wasn't taken into consideration on the figures their
attorney gave them. She stated they're facing serious problems and Mr. Alvarez
has been with the crp since its inception in 1985 or 1986 and if they don't go
through it soon theylll lose the money they have. She said he has experience
and knows what needs to be done to draw up ordinances and get this funding and
get it on the road and they need to consider that.
Mrs. Bennington stated that less than a week after election they wanted to go
out for another attorney based on problems with the City Attorney's contract and
an adversarial attitude towards him. She stated Mr. Alvarez has offered to
serve the City in the interim period while they hire another City Attorney and
that hasnlt been made public and someone isn't telling the public everything they
need to know. She said it's as if Council is saying they don't want Mr. Alvarez
any more and he doesn't want them, so he's gone. She noted he wasn't excused
tonight and he was called absent. She asked Council to consider what the
ultimate cost to the people of the City will be and who will benefit from their
actions. She said they're under critical time frames and to get caught up in
lawsuits and litigation and public hearings is very untimely.
Ms. Clayton stated regarding Mr. Alvarez's comments that he was willing to serve
as interim attorney, that was her suggestion to his attorney in the transition
and it would be a smooth handing of the reins but there has not been a whole lot
of indication this will be a smooth transition because of the responses they
have had from the evaluation of the contract. She stated there's no reason why
he couldn't continue in the interim, or why he should continue, and that's at
the pleasure of Council. She said it was her suggestion it should be a smooth
and amicable transition. She stated regarding the crp, it has not been mentioned
but because the crp contract with Mr. Alvarez doesn't provide for termination,
it would be interpreted that the standard provisions under the professional code
of ethics in which the client can change attorneys at will would prevail so there
would not be a requirement to deal with the contractual limitations.
Mayor Wessler suggested Council give Ms. Clayton the opportunity to offer Mr.
Alvarez $23,500 until noon Monday and if he doesn't respond, or responds in a
way they don't favor, then she'd like to allow her to start getting prepared
for a hearing. Councilperson Gillespie so moved. Councilperson Martin seconded
the motion. Mr. Henry Dardinski called a point of order and stated that Mayor
Wessler cannot make a motion. Councilperson Gillespie explained she moved.
Councilman Jones stated he didn1t have a chance to work with Mr. Alvarez and it's
a situation he's sorry he and the citizens are in. He said he's aware he had
problems in the past but to spend taxpayers I money doesn't fit right with him.
He pointed out they were going to try to save money and now they'll spend $23,000
to correct something because they feel they can't work with this man but they
haven't really had a chance to work with him. He said a lot of people would
like to get this on the road and be done with it but he wishes they could wait
and try to work something out where it won't cost the taxpayers a lot of money.
Councilperson Martin said they have a problem with the crp but 4 years under
4 Council Workshop/Special Meeting
January 23, 1991
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Resolving the City Attorney issue (Continued) certain management has got them
nowhere and it I s time to start on new footage. Counci lperson Gi llespie said
she doesn't want the public to get in a panic and they learned a lot going to
Tallahassee last week and she's comfortable she's doing what's best for the City.
Councilman Hays stated the question's come up of what it will cost to separate
themselves from Mr. Alvarez and his contracts but they need to ask what it cost
to date and what benefits have been to date. He said Mr. Alvarez has been a part
of the City for a long time and CIP since its inception in January, 1986 or 87.
He added it's important to know even though this may be viewed by some as a
personal vendetta, it's not, and they need to have people they feel comfortable
and competent they can work with as there's a lot of work to be done. He added
his initial statement was a problem with Mr. Alvarez's contract and he would
never enter into such a contract with anyone nor would he recommend it to anyone.
He said when the initial motion was made, Mr. Alvarez made a comment to the
effect if they didn't want him any more held go, and held hope held be a
professional and do so just as the retired attorney who spoke earlier said held
do if he were in that situation. He said he doesn't want to see this come down
to a lot of hearings and trials because that's a no win scenario for the City
and the employees and it's in everyone's best interest for them and Mr. Alvarez
to cut their losses and go on. He suggested they see if Mr. Alvarez would accept
the $22-23,000 as it would probably be cheaper in the long run.
Mayor Wessler pointed out Mr. Alvarez did represent the City since the beginning
of the CIP and they're no farther now than then. She said she's sorry people
feel they're representing special interest groups but people on this Council
were voted in by the majority of the City and not just special interest groups
and they make their decisions based on everyone in the City's best interests.
Motion CARRIED 4-1. Councilman Jones voted NO.
Mayor Wessler requested Mr. Johnson give them an indication of ways or
suggestions to go out for a new attorney. Mr. Johnson stated they put an ad in
the Orlando and Daytona and local New Smyrna Beach papers and have received 7
applications as of this date. He said it closes the 31st, then they allow 2-3
days for mail. He suggested they select 3 candidates and bring the list to a
workshop and dec i de on three and set up i nterv i ews. He stated it I S very
important to the City that they have an attorney on board. He suggested they
list questions they want to ask this person. He added they ran the ad three
consecutive week-ends. Mayor Wessler requested Ms. Clayton's opinion.
Mr. Clayton stated they don't know the budget for legal services and what kind
of lawyer they want. She explained they can have an in house lawyer sitting near
Susan 40 hours a week, which is usually 80 hours a week, or a lawyer who is a
sole practitioner or a small office who is himself their legal counsel and works
on an hourly bases but only comes at their request or telephone call. She added
they can determine kinds of specialties they need and go from one place to
another and have an environmental lawyer, a contract lawyer, and a labor lawyer,
and put all the specialties together when they have that kind of question to be
answered. She said they can go to a large full service firm and they'll have
all the specialties in house and they may have a lead attorney in that firm but
any other kind of question outside the lead attorney's specialty they could ask
the firm to provide. She pointed out there are times when a firm that's full
service will not be able to provide an answer on a unique issue. She stated the
budget is now $56,000 for legal services and that will buy pretty much what kind
of package they want. She pointed out because they have a lot of very important
and urgent issues it may be they'll need to have somebody available at their
requirement and call rather than a prestigious large firm with a lot of expertise
but are busy with their other cl ients. She added they may find a sole
practitioner in the community that's familiar with issues in the community.
She said when they advertise they should have the procedure for the selection
and the budget decided before they advertise because that's very important. She
noted they'll get a variety of responses and won't be able to compare apples to
apples because they'll get lawyers just out of law school if they don't have
criteria.
Ms. Clayton stated a technique used in other jurisdictions and the City of
Orlando for many years had a hybrid situation with in house attorneys that were
supervised by an outside lawyer. She said they could find a lawyer with some
experience who would be here and could go to the books when they need an answer
5 Council Workshop/Special Meeting
January 23, 1991
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Resolvina the City Attorney issue (Continued)
now and doesn't have many other clients that would get in the way but when he
has a question he could find a senior attorney in a firm who would be his guiding
mentor until he's trained well enough to do the work himself. She said he'll
be here full time and will come within the budget and will serve an apprentice-
ship and learn while he's working and always have a senior lawyer to call on.
She noted it's worked very well with Orange County and other jurisdictions. She
referred to comparable complex issues between Orange County and Edgewater. She
added by the time the young attorney is here long enough, he'll be just about
$70,000 or so and that's where the budget for legal services should be. She
said someone in the audience stated about the time he gets trained helll go
somewhere else and that's right, but if the lawyer is well selected by the
client, generally he wants to stay in the same place because roots and stability
are an important part of a professional's practice, and familiarity with his
locale, and if they find the right kind of person he might not move on after
they've trained him.
Ms. Clayton stated she's been asked if she'd be interested in serving in a
transition basis and she said yes, in assisting, but because she doesn't live
in th i s County and has trave 1 distance to come, it wou 1 d be not the most
efficient organization of legal services over the long run. She added shelll
help in the short run if necessary and she has a great deal of respect for each
of them. She said depending on Mr. Alvarez's response, he may be willing to
serve in the interim and they should wait and reserve that decision until noon
on Monday. She asked if they should continue this meeting until that time for
reconsideration or establish another meeting. She suggested they could think
about how they want to organize and structure their legal services between now
and then because thatls as important as the timing.
Councilman Hays requested an explanation on the procedure for selection. Ms.
Clayton stated pol itics and government are twin sisters but government is
sometimes better served the less politics you can put into the decision. She
said if they're able to set up a selection strategy where you select your
attorney based on competence and merit and experience as opposed to based on
political connection, because they want objective and independent advice from
their attorney, there are ways to set up committees. She referred to a technique
she used with an attorney committee comprised of the users, such as 5 staff
members from other departments who need the services and had to depend on that
attorney to give them response. She said they'd receive and review the resumes
and rank them and forward 10 resumes to her, ranking 5 for interview and 5 as
good enough for interview. She said she'd review them and if she agreed with
their ranking, she'd interview all 5 and make her decision. She added the
technique was set up by County Commissioners when interviewing Department Heads,
managerial position, County Attorney, and County Manager. She added they try
to de-politicize. She said they may want a committee with someone like the City
Manager and his staff directors, maybe 3 to 5, to rank applications. Councilman
Hays asked if they establish the committee, would it be reasonable to use Mr.
Johnson and Mr. Munoz and go out into the community, such as the retired
attorney, or would that be unreasonable. Ms. Clayton said that would be fine,
and sometimes they have a staff committee and a blue ribbon committee but she's
not sure if that's convenient and in a small jurisdiction they could use a
mixture on one committee with 3 or 5 members. She added they'd forward their
recommendations to Council for review. She said it's unfortunate for those that
are employed elsewhere that it could leak back to their present employers.
Councilperson Gillespie asked if they should do that this evening or when. Ms.
Clayton replied they may want to think about it and come back when the time's
been allotted for Mr. Alvarez to respond and they may be in a better spot to
choose what they want to do. Councilperson Gillespie said in budget hearing they
voted to ask Mr. Alvarez to serve during the interim and the motion carried.
Mayor Wessler suggested they amend the Monday evening agenda on parliamentary
procedure to resolve it then instead of calling another special meeting. After
discussion, it was agreed to meet at 5 p.m. on Monday, January 28th. Council-
person Gillespie asked if it will follow the same rules as published for the
protocol meeting with publ ic invited but not participating. Mayor Wessler
replied there will not be public participation Monday night, they've already
discussed it, and they've made a decision, and it will just be Ms. Clayton coming
back to them with a decision. She asked them to think about members on the
committee if they dec.ide on a committee since applications are due the 31st and
they hope to get it done the first week in February.
6 Council Workshop/Special Meeting
January 23, 1991
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Resolvina the City Attorney issue (Continued)
Mayor Wessler asked if Mr. Alvarez chooses not to serve in the interim, could
Ms. Clayton work out a proposal if they decide to have her in the interim as to
what that firm would charge and bring it Monday so they can make a decision.
Ms. Clayton replied yes. Councilman Hays asked if they're going to look at a
committee, should they decide 3 or 5 people. Mayor Wessler suggested they have
until Monday to think about it and come back with it Monday.
DETERMINING RESPONSIBILITIES AND DUTIES OF NEWLY CREATED CITIZENS COUNCIL
ADVISORY COMMITTEE - Mayor Wessler stated some of the people appointed to this
committee aren't sure what they're supposed to do. She said her intent was the
appointees would get an agenda the same as the Council does and she'd like them
to meet Thursday or Friday and talk about all the issues on that agenda and at
the Council meeting on Monday they'll have a special time set aside for the
Committee to give them their opinions. She added they can talk to neighbors and
friends and bring back what people want them to do instead of their just hoping
to do what people want. She added, if there's something they hear going on in
the community that's of particular interest, they can discuss it at the meeting
and bring it up to Council. She said if it's not on the agenda but is of extreme
importance, they need to speak to Council in advance. She pointed out she does
not want nit picky things and would like Edgewater politics behind them and
every Council member should make decisions on the betterment of Edgewater and
not their political career. She said they want to hear about important issues,
money spending issues, CIP, and attorney issues and those type of opinions.
Councilman Jones stated they discussed this before they were elected and he
thought it was a good idea but they got concerns from citizens that felt this
would be the go between of Council and this Council would be a shadow type
government. He said he explained that wasn't the intent, the intent was to get
people with expertise and fields of information that would be a data bank for
Council. He said he felt when they had a problem and need more information,
they'd point to something on an agenda and send it to this board. He noted one
could say they need more information on a certain item on the agenda and send
it to them to get the information and give them more specific direction.
Councilperson Gillespie agreed with Councilman Jones and said she called all but
2 candidates that applied and told them she doesn't want to hear their opinion
and doesn't want a mirror image, she wants information and hopes the committee
will provide them with every aspect of every problem that goes to them. She said
she doesn't have the time to get everyone's input and they can serve that way.
She added one thing that came up was the problem with Christmas decorations and
after discussing it with Jack Corder, he said it was a wonderful idea to send
it to the committee. She said she doesn't want opinions or recommendations or
advice, just information and all sides.
Mayor Wessler stated she does want opinions and if they recommend something,
that's their opinion. She pointed out they have two Council meetings a month
and they should go over everything on an agenda including the consent agenda.
She assured every board that they have specific duties and this Council Advisory
Committee is not taking away any of the boards I rulings and if the board rules,
it doesn't go to the Citizens Advisory Committee. She noted all on the agenda
doesn't go before every single board and she's not taking anything away from
anyone. She said if there's no objection, she'd like this Committee to get
their agendas on Wednesday like Council does, or Thursday if they can't get it
Wednesday, and meet the following day and they'd have 24 hours to go over it.
She suggested they can also meet Monday, perhaps before the Council meeting, if
they need to get more information, and they'll have a secretary for minutes.
Mr. Johnson said they're talking about a lot of secretarial time and the people
have other jobs. Mayor Wessler said they could do away with some of the ad hoc
boards and assign their secretaries. She reminded the committees and boards that
everything they say is on tape in case they have personal opinions.
Mrs. Wadsworth questioned having minutes from meetings on Thursday for Monday.
Mayor Wessler replied no, they won't want them for Monday, someone will speak
at every Council meeting about what goes on at their meeting, one person will
speak and give opinions, but those minutes do not have to be approved by Council.
Mayor Wessler stated they don't need some ad hoc committees and they can take
a secretary from there and move it over and they have to find a secretary.
Councilman Jones stated this board will meet twice a month and when you get
information, that's more or less an opinion and it's in an advisory capacity.
7 Council Workshop/Special Meeting
January 23, 1991
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DETERMINING RESPONSIBILITIES AND DUTIES OF NEWLY CREATED CITIZENS COUNCIL
ADVISORY COMMITTEE (Continued)
Councilperson Gillespie asked if there's an objection to giving them some of the
long range things that need a lot of research to do that part of it. Mayor
Wessler replied anyone appointed knows major issues revolving around Edgewater
and they could start looking into them now. Councilperson Gillespie asked if they
can give long range. Mayor Wessler suggested on an individual basis.
Mr. Johnson requested it be in the form of a letter to the Committee because
people have been showing up in offices and demanding certain information and
saying they're appointed by Council the watch dogs of particular committees and
it1s created a real problem. He suggested she send consensus of the Council to
the committee so they could understand their function. Mayor Wessler requested
Sue Koser type up basically what the duties are in a letter and each will sign
it and send it to the Committee. She stated it's not a watch dog group, they
have enough in Edgewater, and they're not to go into City Hall and say stop what
they1re doing and do this because they can1t stop the staff from doing their
work. She suggested they call Councilor her at home if they can help and they
can use her office to look over papers or for typing.
Councilman Hays requested a 5-minute recess. Mayor Wessler called a recess at
8:12 p.m. She called the meeting back to order at 8:24 p.m.
DISCUSSION AND POSSIBLE ACTION ON CIP DESIGN TO INCLUDE PHASING/DOWNSIZING,
FINANCIAL OPTIONS/COST SAVING OPTIONS - Mayor Wessler stated she and Councilman
Jones and Councilperson Gillespie and Mr. Johnson went to Tallahassee this week
and met with DER officials. She requested Mr. Johnson give a report. Mr.
Johnson said they met with Don Berryhill, Division Chief for Wastewater for the
State Revolving Fund, and Geoff Mansfield, who handles SRF loan money. He said
Mr. Berryhill went over the program and they're number 1 so far as points are
concerned and how they're qualified now and they had been more than lenient in
the time they gave us with the first application. He said Don Berryhill said
the City needs to make a decision to proceed by March 12th because there are a
lot of other cities waiting in line. He said Mr. Mansfield responded to
questions they had and Mayor Wessler asked if there were grants available for
water but there are no grants for water and no more for sewer except the last
tail end of the one they're qualified for. Mayor Wessler asked which one. Mr.
Johnson replied the 2.1 million that was a carryover from a former grant and
they won't get it if they don1t get their ducks in a row. He pointed out they
base points on the need and other factors and Edgewater has the most points.
He said the interest rate was 4.6 3-4 months ago and now it's 4.25% for SRF
money. Mayor Wessler asked how much the SRF was for. Mr. Johnson replied 6.9
the first year and the second, which is the fiscal year now, is 6.7, and the
third year they1re applying for is the balance. Mr. Ferland said it's a total
of 12.8. Mr. Johnson pointed out they said if we had proceeded properly, we
probab ly wou 1 d have got an extra 8 mi 11 ion sooner, probab ly after the 12th
meeting. Mayor Wessler stated the previous Council didn't move quickly enough.
Mr. Johnson stated the permit has been issued by DER for the sewer plant and
funds have been issued and it1s through the hearing process. He said because
of the change in regulations from SRF and grant funds, they had to submit
additional data for the grant. He said they made arrangements for Councilperson
Gillespie and Councilman Jones to talk with him while they were there. He stated
DER has done everything they can to help Edgewater and has been very cooperative.
He noted they have 70 million and a lot of cities are waiting out there for it.
Mayor Wessler asked if Mr. Mansfield said they're definitely in line for the
following SRF. Mr. Johnson replied they have the fiscal year that just ended
was set aside and reserved 6.9 million, and the 6.7 million is in for this year
and they're number 1 and there's no reason they can't say if they proceed with
the program they'll not qualify because they have the most points in the State
to qualify for additional funds. He explained they used to handle grant programs
from the Federal government but they were cut out and they put in SRF and as
cities pay back the money they'll put it in a pool and it has become a revolving
State fund. He pointed out pay back doesn't begin until a year after
construction is complete. Mayor Wessler asked if it's entire construction. Mr.
Johnson replied that phase of it and the money for the sewer plant would be the
part related to collection system when it's complete. Mayor Wessler asked how
many years. Mr. Johnson replied 20 years.
8 Council Workshop/Special Meeting
January 23, 1991
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Discussion and possible action on tIP design to include phasing/downsizing,
financial options/cost saving options (Continued) Mayor Wessler asked the term
for the grant to put away certain amounts of money. Mr. Johnson replied the
grant is a cost recovery grant and the City's required to put 1/20th of that
money every year until the full grant amount is in a special account and it is
to be used in the future for replacement and additional work. Mayor Wessler
asked if it cannot be used until the full amount is there. Mr. Johnson said they
can pullout if it's for the specific purpose the grant was for and they have
to modify the utility fee ordinance. Mayor Wessler asked if they can pull for
upgrading or new. Mr. Johnson replied no, to repair or replace that part of that
part you got the grant for. He added for the reuse system they could use it but
they couldn't use it for something not related to it. Mayor Wessler asked if
they pull from that before the full amount is in there, do they then continue
to collect for years and years until they build up that amount. Mr. Ferland
replied the grant would be 2.1 million and over 20 years they have to put into
an account enough money every year so at the end of 20 years they'll have
accumulated 2.1 million to replace. Mr. Johnson explained it's more than that,
it's the projected replacement cost at the end of 20 years. Mr. Ferland said
they have to account for inflationary impact, and they are entitled to use that
money from the special account for repairs or replacements but don't have to put
more money in to replace those funds taken out. He pointed out they'll have to
provide the State with an audit that shows they used the money properly. He said
at the meeting with Geoff Mansfield he highly stressed they have 4 funding
scenarios now, the grant of 2.1 million to the City available when they're ready
to proceed, 6.9 million SRF loan available and it's the only project still out-
standing from fundable 1990 and it's there when they're ready to proceed. He
said to access the money, the treatment plant and collection system are tied
together and they won't give the money for the treatment plant unless you're
obligating to do the collection system because that's why they got high ranking
and high priority funding. He said the 12.8 million is on a category and there's
a fundable portion for 1990-91 and next is the contingency list that's the next
year's projects that will be funded in the next fiscal year. He noted the City
has the highest number of points in the small communities program and is assured
of being fundable for 1992 because of being on the contingency list. He added
the on ly reason they wou 1 dn I t be funded is the State d i dn I t get the fu 11
allocation from the Federal government they anticipated, so they're 95-99%
assured of getting it. He said Pompano and other communities had some money and
the State had 9 million available in fiscal year 1991 and they could have given
the City 6.9 plus 8.1 if they were in the position to proceed. He explained the
Statel s definition of proceeding is the City initiate the publ ic hearings
associated with special assessment programs because special assessment revenues
are the pledge they made to repay the loan. He said if they don't have a good
faith motion and aren't moving in a direction of going forward with the special
assessment program by March 12th the State indicated they've waited long enough
and they'll initiate public hearings to remove the City from the fundable and
contingency list because the City didn't show a good faith effort to proceed in
a fashion in concurrence with the agreed upon schedule submitted to them. He
pointed out it doesn't have to be in place by March 12th, but must have started
the public hearing process.
Mayor Wessler stated she put this on the agenda because she got a good feeling
from Mr. Mansfield and Mr. Leroy and Mr. Berryhill that they want to give
Edgewater the money but the bad feeling she got is the fact they're on a
contingency list and if the government has budget cuts and the City initiates
the entire project and there are some cutbacks, the citizens will have to pay
for the project if it's not available. She said if it were definite they'd get
the money, she wouldn't mind but she does have problems with the amount of money
estimates that have been given.
Mayor Wessler requested Council agree to ask Dyer, Riddle to go back, and they've
paid them an outstanding amount of money, and cut the fat from their plans and
see a small set of plans saying this is what they need and this is what they'd
like to have if they're really rich. She said she'd like anything cut out
Edgewater doesn't absolutely have to have in this project. She said she has
options, one was to see what they could do with just the amount of grant money
and the loan money this year and next year first without any rate increases.
She asked to give them what they can do with 2.1 and 6.9 and 6.7 million. Mr.
Ferland pointed out the dilemma is it's in three phases, the wastewater plant,
phase 1 of the collection system and phase 2 of the collection system, and phase
9 Council Workshop/Special Meeting
January 23, 1991
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Discussion and possible action on tIP design to include phasing/downsizing.
financial options/cost savina options (Continued) 2 is on contingency, and
wastewater plant capacity is based on phase 1 and 2 flow coming to it. He said
if they feel uncomfortable with the contingency because of funding not being tied
down and an obligation in place, he proposed they only put out a contract on
phase 1, get it under way, and get the wastewater plant underway, and when they
become fundable at fiscal year October 1992 and they know it's on the list, they
go ahead and contract for the remaining portion of phase 2 of the collection
system. He pointed out to access funding, they have to access all of it and when
you access is a critical point. He requested more direction from Council as to
what they consider fat, as there's not a lot of fat with a gravity collection
system, they have man holes and pipe, and they did a value engineering to remove
fat from the system and total recommendations were accepted and implemented of
about 1/2 million dollars which was mostly in the dewatering method used. He
said there were other minor items they've incorporated in the design and revised
the cost estimates. He noted they had a paving and drainage aspect of the
program for Florida Shores and whether they proceed or not is secondary to
whether they take them off the plans as he can just take it off the CADD system.
He pointed out cost estimates may appear high but he tries to be conservative
and the key is they're what the construction bids received will be and some may
be under the estimates and they have to adjust the assessments according to the
actual contract bids received as once an assessment is set, you can come down
but the 1 aw says you cannot increase it once it's pub 1 i shed. He sa i d the
wastewater rate increase mayor may not be adjusted depending on total funding
but part of the financing package assumed 8% special assessment bond and if they
get the total money they wouldn't have to go out for that bond, which would lower
the assessment cost, but not necessarily the rate cost. He explained the grant
will have an effect on reducing the rate base cost associated with the wastewater
system. He said it's a 3% a year wastewater rate increase and he strongly
recommends they continue with the rate increase program and when the programs's
finalized after construction bids and they see the actual cost, they can say the
following year they won't enact the 3% because they don't need it. He again said
he's not sure there's that much fat to cut out. He pointed out it's an advanced
waste treatment plant and it's state of the art but it's what they need to
continue discharge to the river. Mayor Wessler asked if he can reduce the cost
any if he looks at plans. Mr. Ferland replied wastewater was evaluated by an
outside engineering firm. Councilperson Gillespie noted it was in October.
Mr. Ferland stated the water system can have some things done to reduce it but
he's not sure how much, such as the control building. Mayor Wessler stated there
was $400-500,000 reduced by the other engineering firm on a 36 million project.
Mr. Ferland noted it was 1/2 million on the collection system. Mayor Wessler
stated she doesn't know if it can be cut any more but she doesn't want to push
them into the CIP without being evaluated again because she feels it can be cut
more and people cannot afford not to look at all of it. She said they could look
at not doing paving or drainage. Mr. Johnson stated they don't have to do it
but every resident who builds a house will have to put on site retention on their
property. Mayor Wessler asked if he can cut drainage. Mr. Ferland replied they
could put the costs associated with stormwater control on new residents. Mr.
Johnson sa i d they can requ i re peop 1 e who bu il d to pay, and suggested they
consider doing paving and drainage and they can value engineer plans on a sewer
system but the State wants the City to put in a new septic if anyone's septic
fails until they get the sewer system in.
Mayor Wessler said she found out in Tallahassee paving is 1/3 each and they don't
know where the City's 1/3 is coming from. Mr. Ferland said the basic assumption
is 1/3 and that's set by precedence. Mayor Wessler asked where the City gets
the 1/3. Mr. Ferland replied most likely if they went to bond that would be
appropriate or some revenue source will have to be pledged and that's 6-7 million
dollars. Mr. Johnson pointed out it's 10 year assessments instead of 20 years.
Mayor Wessler stated they want to go forward as quickly as possible to avoid
losing money but she wants Mr. Ferland to look at the plans for water and
wastewater and do this at no cost to Edgewater, or if not, she will ask Council
to get another engineering firm to do it. She suggested he talk to his firm and
get back with them.
Councilman Hays asked Mr. Ferland if, since the meeting in Tallahassee, the
priority is wastewater first. Mr. Ferland replied priority to the City in terms
of the City's immediate needs is water and the reason is because the current
10 Council Workshop/Special Meeting
January 23, 1991
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Ohcussion and possible action on tIP design to include phasing/downsizing.
financial options/cost saving options (Continued) water plant is approaching
capacity and current distribution system is a network of small lines. Councilman
Hays said he thought he said funding was first for wastewater. Mayor Wessler
explained the funding is for wastewater. Councilman Hays asked about the
possibilities to cut down costs to individual citizens, people on fixed income,
and people who cannot financially afford to do it. He said they talked about
holding off on paved roads which would save $30 a month. Mr. Ferland agreed
drainage and paving would be $30 a month. Councilman Hays stated that's the
only thing they could come up with and they're talking down-sizing but not fat.
He asked if the plant facility design is such that it's expandable. Mr. Ferland
replied yes. Councilman Hays asked if it can be downsized at first because the
impact on a monthly basis is what they're responsible for. He said it's okay
to have dreams and make plans but they shouldn't bite off more than they can
chew, and that's what they're asking him to help them with. Mr. Ferland agreed
areas that could reduce costs should be addressed, but the wastewater plant
cannot be downsized because that capacity is only a 10-year horizon now. He
added the low interest loans and grants are strictly wastewater. He said the
water program was complete for a long time and they could be ready to go and it
has the impact of 10% a year cumulative over 5 years approximately 61% increase
in water rates.
Mayor Wessler noted they got water from New Smyrna Beach before. Mr. Ferland
said the capacity of the interconnect is limited and it's in the North end of
town and the problem is at the South and it's a maze of 2 or 611 lines that won't
effectively move the water from one end to the other. Mayor Wessler stated the
main concern is to start cutting and come back as soon as possible and get into
these hearings and get the money by March 12th and that has nothing to do with
the water plant. Mr. Ferland explained they have parallel objectives and they're
talking about two different utility entities and if they proceed with the water
and not the wastewater, they need to go with the water, and if they proceed with
wastewater they wouldn't get very far by not doing something with water. Mayor
Wessler explained she doesn't want him to forget about water, but come back,
hopefully within a week, and worry about cost cutting measures now.
Councilperson Gillespie noted when Greeley and Hansen did the report on
reductions, they went from 19 to 14 lift stations but there was no reduction in
costs. She said they have to go forward with FS 170, the first special
assessment hearing, and she wants the sewer plant as every citizen's responsi-
bility in the City. She said when it goes to assessment, it has to be drafted
so everyone pays for the sewer plant and Florida Shores will pay for their
phasing, their sewer system, and everything involved in Florida Shores, but the
City must have a new sewer plant with or without Florida Shores coming on line.
Mr. Ferland agreed that's correct, and stated the special assessment for the
treatment plant doesn't cover the total cost of the treatment plant, it just
covers the flow rate proportion associated with Florida Shores so that's the
method they used to achieve that equity. Mayor Wessler asked where the other
portion comes from. Mr. Ferland replied rates. Councilperson Gillespie stated
Florida Shores is paying higher rates along with paying their share. Mr. Ferland
stated they're paying rates and special assessment. Mayor Wessler asked why
they're paying more for the wastewater plant than anyone else. Mr. Johnson
explained people who hook onto the water system pay an impact fee and people in
Florida Shores pay a special assessment instead of an impact fee and it was done
so it will not all be due at one time. He added the rest of the cost of the
plant is borne evenly by everyone in the community and there are no inequities
here. He pointed out the value engineering report wasn't requested by the Mayor
and Council. it was a requirement of the State.
Mayor Wessler asked Mr. Ferland to come back with what he can cut so they can
set up special assessment hearings. Councilman Jones stated in the past they
looked for sewer treatment and looked at low pressure systems and he'd be
cautious about cutting the fat and doesn't want him to cut anything that would
cause problems down the line in repairs and doesn't want in 2-3 years to have
problems because they cut a system they felt they couldn't afford and it will
cost more in the long run. He said they should do it right and get it over
with. Mayor Wessler said a Ford runs as long as a Cadillac and she's just asking
him to look at what they don't need now and in 10 years they'll go back when they
need them. Mr. Ferland stated they don't have a Cadillac, they have a Ford.
Mayor Wessler stated they're paying for a Cadillac.
11 Council Workshop/Special Meeting
January 23, 1991
,..,
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Discussion and possible action on tIP design to include phasing/downsizing.
financial options/cost saving options (Continued)
Mr. Ferland stated he knows it's a large impact on the community. Mayor Wessler
asked if Council objects to her request. Councilperson Gillespie and Councilman
Hays indicated they agree. Mayor Wessler said Mr. Ferland can go back and look
at any cost saving measures and get it back in a reasonable amount of time to
set up special assessment hearings. Councilman Hays suggested they look at the
calendar and set a date. Mr. Ferland said they need to develop the assessment
roll and that's a time consuming process. Councilperson Gillespie said whoever
gets assessed for the sewer plant. Mr. Ferland said these are CIP issues that
were looked at and if they want to restructure funding of the treatment plant,
more being rate base and less special assessments, then if he finds 1/2 million
in the treatment plant, he'll reduce it by that. He sa i d they may want to
expedite this and they have 3 hearings to review those numbers. He re-emphasized
they do not have a Cadillac system, it's a Ford, and it's not high tech more than
it has to be to meet the mandates of what it has to perform. He said in the
construction phase if they set a budget and say all they want is a certain amount
of dollars and get a bid that's above what they set in the budget, then they have
to cut costs so they do away with some of the necessities because of lack of
funds and cut corners and do without certain things, such as increasing the man
hole length from 5001 to 1,0001 which makes it very inaccessible to service and
clean. He pointed out the construction industry is on a down turn now and bids
are lower than anticipated. He said that will be the most appropriate time to
try and identify valid ways to cut costs. He reviewed how he could reduce the
number of man holes but will cut reliability. There was discussion about the
space between hydrants in the rest of the City.
Mayor Wessler asked him to reduce the cost and set up special assessment hearings
and go out for construction bids. She asked if they have to do bids before the
hearing. Mr. Ferland said he has no problem with someone else looking at their
plans and identifying cost reductions but he wouldn't recommend going to an
engineer, he would recommend hiring a contractor and ask him what it would be
if he bid it today and what he can cut back for cost savings. He noted another
engineer will just give them another engineer's estimate and it may be higher
or lower. He said Wharton Smith did the water plant and he feels they would be
more appropriate to do the estimate and he can talk with them. Mayor Wessler
stated she wants this at no cost to the City. Mr. Ferland said he doesn't think
there will be a cost to the City. Mayor Wessler said if there's no cost, let
him do it. Mr. Ferland said he'd rather do that and bring back what they say
rather than him coming back and telling them and they'd wonder if it's really
that.
Councilperson Gillespie asked if he can bring it back in 8 days. Mr. Ferland
replied he'll try. Mayor Wessler asked how long it will take for special
assessment hearings. Mr. Johnson replied he has a schedule prepared by the bond
attorney and they can have the first hearing by March 12th.
Councilperson Gillespie moved they follow the Mayor's suggestion and instruct
Mr. Ferland to go back and bring in at no cost to the City a cost cutting factor
for phase 1 and the wastewater plant. Mr. Ferland pointed out in the special
assessment and commitment to the State they're committing to do the whole
project. Councilperson Gillespie said he set the phases if one component were
all unsewered homes and the plant as the other component and she1s referring to
the total package for wastewater for the entire City of Edgewater. Mr. Ferland
said 6.9 million is phase 1 and 12.8 million of collection and reuse reclaimed
water system. Councilperson Gillespie agreed that's right. Councilman Hays
seconded the motion. Motion CARRIED 5-0.
Mr. Johnson stated one discussion was doing construction of the water line at
the same time as a cost saving and the other problem is the serious fire
condition in Florida Shores. He said he gave them a memo on the requirement for
the reuse plan that has to be done by July 1, 1991, and it will be on the agenda
for February 4th. Mayor Wessler asked when they go out for construction bids,
will they bid in phases so if one is different. Mr. Ferland replied the way
the program's structured they can have one contractor bid it all and if they do,
they'll eliminate a large number or all of the contractors in Volusia County
because they're talking about 60 miles of gravity sewer and it's a large project
such as building Disney. He stated the City needs to resolve some issues and
he was optimistic about the CIP Committee to review these issues, such as special
assessment for the treatment portion if someone has 4 lots and 1 house because
12 Council Workshop/Special Meeting
January 23, 1991
....,
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Ohcussion and possible action on tIP design to include phasing/downsizing.
financial options/cost saving options (Continued) now 2 lots are buildable and
every 2 lots get assessed. He said those with 4 lots won't necessarily be
subdividing their lot, but do they charge 1 or 2 assessments. He said those
issues have to be resolved and there have to be ordinance changes to accommodate
special assessments for treatment in lieu of impact fees. He said they need
special rules for the special assessment district. He said they have all Florida
Shores and one contractor can build it all at one price and he can hire other
contractors or use his own forces to build, or they can put it in pieces and have
10 contractors working at the same time and they'll all have different prices.
Councilman Hays asked who oversees the construction project from an engineering
point of view. Mr. Ferland repl ied they have a contract for construction
management that they'll oversee that portion in the program originally as they
designed it long ago and they would need resident inspections every day with the
contractor. Councilman Hays asked if they'd be overseeing the construction of
their plans and they put it out to bids and contractors are coming in and they
reach a point where there's a problem, isn't it a conflict there as to whether
it's the plan or the construction. Mr. Ferland agreed and said he cannot
guarantee there won't be any problems with construction. He noted the man could
be laying the line and he hits coquina or shell rock they didn't know was there
and when he bid it he thought it was a 11 sand. He added under construct i on
management they can say it's unforseen occurrences and they will have those.
He explained construction management insures the work is performed in accordance
with the contract document as best as they can define what field conditions are
and that the contractor is operating in conformance with the general conditions
he's required to operate on. He pointed out because they have a SRF loan and
a grant, there are certain requirements he has to meet with so much work done
by minority or women only and other Federal guidelines. He said that will be
a construction management function. He explained day to day monitoring is
resident inspections and that program is not in the contract but they'd be happy
to do it. He said originally to save the City money because they'll have to take
on staff to operate the treatment plant 24 hours a day, during construction the
resident inspection could be done by hiring their own people and the City staff
do it. He noted when there's a conflict between the plan and field conditions,
he calls the engineer to resolve the conflict and issue a field change order to
keep the job going. He said there's no conflict of interest but not all things
can be foreseen. Mayor Wessler said $227,835 is for construction management
and resident inspection for the water main, and asked if that is something on
top of that. Mr. Ferland replied no, he estimated that cost in there to show
the total project cost, but resident inspection is not part of their design
contract and construction management is. He said if they want them to do it at
the plant site where it's more complex, they'll be happy to do so, and the total
cost is shown but they're not contracted at this time. Councilperson Gillespie
asked about Gates Castle doing it, except itls too much work. Mr. Ferland
agreed.
Counci lperson Gi llespie referred to an engineering student who got intern credits
who was an on site engineer at the Indian River Elementary School project. She
asked if they could do something like that to help Mr. Castle. Mr. Ferland
replied they don't even need an engineer. Mr. Johnson said they discussed hiring
a qualified operator that's licensed and understands the process and will be
working in the end and he'll be the inspector and will work with Mr. Castle and
oversee it. He added it's the plant and water lines and sewer lines. Council-
person Gillespie asked how a plant operator would know that. Mr. Johnson replied
it's part of their training and license process. Mr. Ferland pointed out most
critical in the resident inspection in a gravity collection system is to insure
the pipe is being laid in the proper manner, back filling is not with trash, and
bedding conditions and grade of the line are very important so it will flow
downhill. He stated in the future as changes are made they're noted on the plans
so record drawings are true because they have to show where lateral connections
for any home are. He said on the wastewater treatment plant it's more complex
and they have foundation work and concrete pours and equipment setting to do and
everything's lined up. He said from a construction management perspective that's
their job to review shop drawings to assure equipment and material supply is in
conformance with the design and they're getting what they're paying for. He
noted they'll want to be paid at the end of every month and someone has to make
sure that what he's getting paid for he's actually done. He stated because they
have SRF loans they'll have to obligate to hire, whether his firm or another
engineering firm, and it's in the contract, to insure that construction occurs
13 Council Workshop/Special Meeting
January 23, 1991
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Discussion and ossible action on CIP desi n to include hasin downsizin
financial options/cost savina options Continued) in accordance with the contract
documents which is a requirement of SRF.
Councilperson Gillespie asked if they're putting a revamped sewer plant except
for sludge beds where the other one is and how they do that. Mr. Ferland replied
when they try to add onto or replace or upgrade an existing plant, they still
have to deal with flow on a daily basis. He said the existing plant is all in
that circular concrete basin and its future use is for reclaimed water storage
and they'll keep that plant in operation and build the other plant. Council-
person Gillespie noted it's a small area for heavy equipment. Mr. Ferland said
it's to the North and it's tricky because of sub soil conditions. He explained
they'll build the new plant and keep the old one in service and when the new
plant is ready for service, they'll flip the flow to the new plant and complete
the piping and pumping to incorporate the old plant tank and then use it for the
reclaimed water system.
Mayor Wessler asked if they feel a committee should look at some of the issues
with the special assessment hearings. Councilperson Gillespie said she'd like
briefings from another City that's gone through it. Mayor Wessler said she's
talking about decisions this City has to make and asked if they want to form a
committee to deal with roadways or other things. Counci lperson Gi 11espie
suggested Council go with it since they promised to go forward with it.
Mayor Wessler said she thinks the City Engineer should be more in on these
issues. Councilperson Gillespie agreed. Mayor Wessler noted he's not here for
this discussion. Mr. Johnson disagreed, saying Mr. Castle is part of his staff
and is involved in every part of it. Mayor Wessler said she'd like him to be
here. Mr. Johnson said he didn't design the system and is not a design engineer.
Mayor Wessler said Mr. Ferland's a design engineer and his firm is making money
'out of it and Mr. Castle is not going to make any money from the CIP and his view
point would be for the City. Mr. Ferland agreed Mr. Castle is involved. Mr.
Johnson stated he was hired later and is involved since then and is involved in
meetings, but he doesn't require staff to come to every Council meeting. Mayor
Wessler said once they get into this she'd like Mr. Castle to be more involved.
Mr. Johnson said held like to discuss it with her. Mayor Wessler said it's
administrative and it's asking a lot from him but when Mr. Ferland says
something, she'd like to ask the City Engineer for his opinion since he has the
interests of Edgewater. She asked if Council objects. Councilperson Gillespie
agreed, and said she has great faith and trust in Gates. Mayor Wessler explained
it doesn't have to be every meeting, but she wants him to be involved when it's
the different things Mr. Ferland discusses, and if it takes forming a special
committee of Council members and Ron and Gates Castle, so be it. Councilperson
Martin said she doesn't have a problem. Councilman Jones said they pay Ron
Ferland to keep them informed and Gates Castle is busy with other things but if
it doesn't interfere with his normal functions he doesn't see any problems with
him sitting in. Mayor Wessler said she's asking him to sit in as City Engineer.
Mr. Johnson stated Gates Castle was not hired primarily for CIP but to perform
engineering functions for day to day activities for the City. Mayor Wessler
stated after this is put into effect, he'll take care of the CIP and deal with
any problems. Mr. Ferland explained the Utilities Department will handle the
problems that occur. Mayor Wessler asked if they have to go back to Mr. Castle
after it's constructed. Mr. Johnson rep 1 i ed no, he'll ass i st the Ut il it i es
Department as he does now as an advisor.
Mayor Wessler asked for 2 Council members and some kind of committee so they
don't have to sit for such long meetings. Councilperson Gillespie volunteered
because she's already worked with Mr. Castle. Mayor Wessler said she doesn't
like the way the last CIP committee was run and wants another committee set up
to expedite things. Councilperson Gillespie said she has background paper work
on the original CIP task force and this last one was the 5th and she'll put the
information in the Mayor's mail box. Mayor Wessler said they'll bring it back
on the 4th. Mr. Johnson asked what they want from the committee and suggested
a member of Council and a staff committee with Gates Castle and him and a person
from finance to respond to their concerns. Mayor Wessler stated the majority
of people will pay for the system and they should have citizens. Mr. Johnson
said the problem with the last committee was people not showing up for meetings
and a lot was done. He said they'll go through the whole process and respond
when they go through the hearing process anyhow. Mayor Wessler asked if he's
14 Council Workshop/Special Meeting
January 23, 1991
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Dhcuss;on and poss;ble acHon on tIP des;an to ;nclude phas;na/downs;z;na.
f;nanc;al opt;ons/cost sav;na opt;ons (Continued) suggesting no committee. Mr.
Johnson replied time is the factor and what the committee will do between now
and March 12th.
Councilperson Gillespie moved to adjourn. Councilman Hays seconded the emotion.
Meeting was adjourned at 9:38 p.m.
Minutes submitted by:
Lura Sue Koser
y/-~
ATTEST:
~ IlLJ~--
CITY CLERK I
A~ved this 13 day of
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MAyOR .
15 Council Workshop/Special Meeting
January 23, 1991