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07-23-1990 - Workshop J . -!'" ........ ...""" CITY COUNCIL OF EDGEWATER WORKSHOP JULY 23, 1990 MINUTES Mayor Mitchum called the Workshop to order at 7:00 p.m. in the Community Center. He stated the purpose was to receive the bike path petition from Ms. Tanya Wessler and for citizen input regarding plans for the side walk on Roberts Road/30th Street. ROLL CALL Mayor David Mitchum Councilman Dan Hatfield Councilmember Gigi Bennington Councilman Russell Gold Councilman Thomas Fish City Attorney Jose' Alvarez City Manager Elly Johnson City Clerk Susan Wadsworth Chief Lawrence Schumaker Present Present Present Excused Present Excused Present Present Present Mayor Mitchum stated they'll have a brief proposal on what's planned for Roberts Road and then Ms. Wessler can present her petition and then they'll receive comments or questions from the floor. Gates Castle, City Engineer, explained the proposal is for a temporary sidewalk because within a few years Roberts Road will be widened and at that time a more permanent sidewalk will be started in conjunction with the widening. He stated the consulting engineers prepared plans indicating a sidewalk on the South side of Roberts Road extending from the West end of Roberts to where the sidewalk will be constructed in conjunction with the new elementary school to have a continuous asphalt path from the west end of Roberts Road to the school. He stated it will be 5 feet wide shell rock with asphalt emulsifier coating. He added it will be approximately 2 feet off the edge of existing pavement and near the railroad tracks it goes to 4 or 5 feet. He said he looked at guard rails as a safety alternative but the purpose of guard rails is to protect vehicular traffic from lateral hazard and it wouldn't be appropriate on a sidewalk for protecting people on the sidewalk. He pointed out the guard rail is the perfect height for children to climb up on and start walking. He added the purpose of the fence would be to prevent children from going from the sidewalk to the road but it wouldn't stop an errant vehicle from going onto the sidewalk. He pointed out for a fence to be effective it would have to be 4 to 6 feet high and when you do a sight distance analysis at each intersection, they find the fence will create a sight distance along the road and vehicles won't be able to see oncoming cars and it creates a bad traffic situation. He stated he also looked at striping and some installations don't have any separation between asphalt bike lanes, such as on Indian River Boulevard from the railroad tracks to U.S. 1. He recommended they keep a physical separation but establish the south edge line of Roberts Road one foot north of the edge of pavement wh i ch wou 1 d ach i eve another foot of separation between vehicle traffic and the sidewalk. He noted when you have a narrowing of the traffic lane the drivers tend to slow down. He said he looked at construction management and plans are available here and after the contractor lays out the sidewalk he has to get the City Engineer's approval of the layout and he'll maximize distance from the edge of the paved road to the edge of the sidewalk. He said wherever possible they'll get as much distance separation as they can. He pointed out some areas have deep drainage swales and if you move the sidewalk farther from the road, it will be unusable and will be greater than the 12% slope. He stated he'll maximize the distance between the edge of the road and the sidewalk and move the South edge line of Roberts Road one foot to the north to achieve another foot of separation. Tanya Wessler, 3109 Travelers Palm, stated they're here for safety of the children. She said she was told by Mr. Johnson the bike path will cost in excess of $100,000 and the City couldn't afford guard rails and she called for costs and a number of people said they could do it cheaper. She said a letter was sent to Jack Ascherl who replied that if the School Board declared that road hazardous to the children, then they'd have to be bussed, which in turn would cost taxpayers a lot more than a guard rail. She questioned if guard rails are good for visibility, then why can't they have a specific purpose for the children also. She stated there had been recommendations to take the trucks off Roberts 'W' ...., Tanva Wessler (Continued) Road and there's an ordinance stating east/west trucks have to go down Park Avenue, 442, or Roberts Road. She said she measured a truck and it's approximately 8 feet from one tire to another and the road is 21 feet and with two trucks going opposite directions, you leave inches on the side. She noted that doesn't include the truck mirrors. She said if they'd swerve, they'll go into the children. She reviewed how an accident could happen with horseplay. She said they'll have a big lawsuit on their hands if a child falls into the road. She said she talked with Mr. Castle and he said a lot of it is the children's responsibility and we tell our children to be careful but they can't be trusted. She referred to an earlier accident with a New Smyrna Beach Police OFficer who was injured and is in the hospital. Ms. Wessler said they have around 900 signatures from Florida Shores area people who want a safe bike path and they won't put up with a bike path that's not safe. She said they're willing to work with the City. She said Mr. Castle told her the majority of the bike path would be 2 feet off and there's no way it could be any better. Mr. Castle explained that's the way the plans are but in the field it will be on a block by block basis and in every case possible he'll try to get greater than 2 feet but won't be able to in all instances. Ms. Wessler said they need more than 2 feet in every case. She stated they'll have 661 children coming down one road and some parents won't be able to drive their children to school. She suggested maybe they could take the trucks off the road 45 minutes in the morning and afternoon. She said it seems when they figured the amount of money for the school, they would have figured for a bike path, because one child's life should be worth something. Ms. Wessler stated painting the street won't keep the children safe and they need to put up a fence or something. She noted they're spending $10,000 for the boat ramps and parking spaces and they can use that $10,000 for guard rails. She stated parents are willing to put 50 cents on their water bills to help pay for the bike path. She asked about those who have to cross U.S. 1. She pointed out there's only one crossing guard at the school, and asked how they'll get there safely. Mayor Mitchum said general consensus seems to be a guard rail to be put there. Ms. Wessler said that's down 30th, but some are in Pelican Cove and have to cross U.S. 1 and they need a bike path there, plus some live in the 2500 block and cars don't go 30 to 35 miles per hour, they go 50. Mayor Mitchum suggested perhaps lowering the speed limit to 25 miles per hour. Ms. Wessler said it may help but they need everything the day children start to school. She suggested they rearrange the budget because children are most important. Councilman Hatfield asked if Mrs. Dyett is present. Mrs. Wessler replied there was an illness in the family. Councilman Hatfield suggested the PTA might look into this as the City can't put a policeman on every corner and it might be advantageous, along with other plans, to have a parent group at every block that watches the children. He noted his children go to the old school and they have to cross Park Avenue and Old County Road and go over the railroad tracks and his wife has to escort them and they have to ma inta in the safety for their own children. He suggested through the PTA the group have a safety monitoring system. He agreed with Mr. Castle's comments about the fence creating a blind area when coming onto the road. Ms. Wessler said not if using a chain link fence. Mayor Mitchum stated it would blur the vision if you were at the right angle. Councilman Hatfield stated parents have to take responsibility for their own children. Ms. Wessler pointed out a lot of parents can't do that and she knows it's the children's responsibility but you can't chain them to the side of the road and another child may push them into the road. Ms. Wessler presented the petition to Mayor Mitchum, noting the 900 signatures mean they have 900 people who will walk down Roberts Road and block traffic the first day of school if it's unsafe. Mayor Mitchum stated they can't make a decision tonight and will have to go back to a regular advertised meeting to make a decision. He suggested the audience limit their time so everyone will have a chance to speak that wishes to do so. Kennv Yarborouah, 2518 Sabal Palm, stated he's a volunteer coordinator for the school and theyJre trying to get advisory and safety committees to work on the corners and he's rearranging his work schedule to be on one of the corners in the mornings. 2 Council Workshop Minutes Ju ly 23, 1990 v ..., Frank Roe, 2732 Juniper Drive, said held told them never to put a school there in the first place. He asked if a fence or guard rail is placed to keep the children safe, how do children go to the park, and do they climb over the fence. He asked about the development there and how they'll get to the school from the north side. He stated parents need to notify children of safety. He said the side walk and bike path are admirable to have there. He asked if there will be openings every so many feet for children to go to the park or to the north side. Al Keaton, 3029 Kumquat, asked what's been budgeted for this project. Mr. Johnson replied nothing, and Council agreed once we get the bids in to appropriate funds to do it. Mr. Keaton asked if it's about $100,000. Mr. Johnson replied they estimated the bike path and guard rails over $100,000, with guard rails estimated at $81,600, but there's no firm price. Mr. Keaton asked about black top. Mr. Castle said it will be about $40,000. Mr. Johnson noted it will be bid. Norm Billups, 1860 Pine Tree Drive, asked Council and the audience if they can put a value in dollar signs on a child's life and can they confine a child to a wheelchair for life because of dollar signs. He suggested every bicycle rider be mandated to attend a course on bike riding safety given by the City and that all bikes be licensed for a nominal fee to cover handling and paper work. He said they can talk to children but they don't heed us. He suggested appearance of one or two policemen during and after school who might check to see if bikes are licensed or not and if the child has a card that he attended a safety course by the City. He said the City can protect itself by doing this. He stated parents, as well as the Police Department, have to ride herd on the youngsters. Henrv Dardinski, 2704 Sabal Palm, asked if Council's input was requested before they picked the site of the school. Mayor Mitchum stated that's the School Board and the City has no power to do anything. Mr. Oardinski asked if it was possible to give Council's input to recognize the danger when they chose the site and to request a contribution from them to widen the street or put in the bike path for the children. Mayor Mitchum pointed out they're providing it in front of the school. Mr. Johnson stated they'd told us they didn't have funds available. Mayor Mitchum stated this bike path is from the western most end to the railroad tracks. Councilman Hatfield explained the land was approved and purchased prior to this Council coming on and when they ran for office, one of the big issues they tried to bring up is they have a school being planned and should start so the bike path would be available at the same time the school is. He said he talked with them at the elementary school and Mr. Ross from the School Board made clear to him they had no funds for a bike path other than right in front of the school and that it would be the City's responsibility. He added the City's not shirking that responsibility and are making it as safe as possible and aren't sure if the best way is to go with a fence, a guard rail, or striping, or whatever. Mr. Oardinski said it's inconceivable the School Board picked this site and Council didn't push the school system or County to recognize problems weld be faced with and ask them to finance it. Mayor Mitchum stated they did, and at that time there was indication they would, and they were working on a bike path for 442 and looking at easements and rights of way and then Council switched from 442 to Roberts as their priority because of the school, but they didn't abandon the 442 bike path. John Lee, 2948 Needle Palm, stated held discussed this with Ron Austin from Tarmac and he indicated for 1.9 miles of 5 foot road way needed, if the City does the survey and ground work, they could pour it for $46,000, and not knowing the price of the guard rails, they estimated it shouldn't exceed cost of labor, cement, and pour and should come within the $100,000 Mr. Johnson mentioned. He said as elected officials, with 900 people on a petition, they have the right to get just about anything they'd like, and especially if it works within figures indicated. Mr. Johnson pointed out no money was appropriated, that was a rough estimate, and there won't be a firm price until bids come in and at that time they'll ask it be appropriated. Don Kastner, 124 Hardin Place, stated he's a registered nurse in the operating room at the hospital. He reviewed an incident regarding a child in a traffic accident. He asked they do everything in their power to get Edgewater underway for bike paths and anything they can do about traffic. He said you judge a community by the library, hospital, and recreational facilities. He said he has a health problem and it's recommended he ride a bike, so it's not just for children but also for wellbeing of the community, and the community will be known for recreational facilities and traffic plans. 3 Council Workshop Minutes Ju ly 23, 1990 .., ...." Art Lloyd, 3130 Victory Palm, reiterated John Lee's statement. He asked if the $81,000 is a two rail guard rail. Mr. Johnson replied it's a type DOT requires, 60 Type IV, and it has to meet standards or they don't get State aid. Mr. Lloyd asked minimum height chain link fence that wouldn't obscure vision from the side roads. Mr. Johnson replied said about 1 to 1-1/2 foot not to obscure vision but that wouldn't be any good because the problem is line of sight when you pull up or come down that road coming into the intersection. Mr. Castle stated the standard for height eyesight is 3011. Mr. Lloyd asked about a cost for 3011 chain link fence. Mayor Mitchum stated that would be inadequate and he'd support the guard rail before he'd waste money on a 2-1/2 foot chain link fence which would obstruct nothing and he could kick it over. Mr. Lloyd noted Volusia County said they'll provide a walk area in the immediate frontage of the school, but do people know that in the past the County said Roberts Road from U.S. 1 west to the tracks was theirs and now they notified the City that it's our road. Mayor Mitchum stated the City didn't officially accept it and they're looking into it because of maintenance. He pointed out there are two different entities, the County and the School Board. He said until a few weeks ago it was the County's road and their responsibility and now they say it's ours, and after this is done, perhaps they need to take this delegation to the County. Mr. Lloyd asked if Council put the County Council on notice they weren't going to accept the decree. Mayor Mitchum replied they have not but they will do so in a future meeting. Mr. Castle said he talked to the County Engineer this afternoon who assured him they're going to leave the bike path installation from U.S. 1 to the school in their program for the 5-year County Road Plan starting in 1990-91 but he doesn't know where it is in that plan. Kathy Feindt, 2910 Vista Palm, stated last year they had 30 or 40 bus stops on Roberts Road and no supervision along the road and they moved the bus stops into 28th or 31st Street and now they're back on Roberts Road and guard rails will give the ch~ldren a guideline to get to school. She said if you don't give them a structure they'll be running around. Susan Hager, 3032 Mango Tree, stated they moved the bus stop to 31st, so why can't they put the bike path on 29th or 31st and get rid of major traffic on Roberts and take truck traffic off. She added children don't follow our rules and if you put the bike path on the South side, they'll ride in the road. Mr. Johnson replied there was discussion about putting the bike path a block off 30th but those aren't normal blocks and the problem would still be getting them across with two sets of traffic and they felt this was the more practical way. Robert Bonney, Meadow Lake, stated they have to educate drivers as well as children. He referred to people avoiding the intersection coming around by the light and cutting across to hit Roberts Road and there's a no passing sign on one side. He suggested a no passing zone all the way up that road. He said he measured Roberts Road and it's 18 feet across and his car is 71611 wide and he and his wife ride bikes down that road, and if there are two cars coming they won't stop. He again said it's the adult that needs educated. Roger Watkins, 2730 Mango Tree, stated there's no traffic on 31st Street and he'd suggest they move it off 30th because it's not adequate for car traffic and the telephone company has it dug up all the time and they'll be digging up the bike path about once a month. He suggested they could take some stop signs down and move them around on 31st and it would save a lot of money. Mr. Johnson asked about those on the north side of Roberts Road. Mr. Watkins replied now they'll have to cross 30th. Mr. Johnson explained the idea was to get them to a path and get a crossing to a safe path. He pointed out most of the east/west streets will be retention ponds within the next 12 to 24 months. Mr. Watkins asked if 30th Street will still be an east/west street. Mr. Johnson replied yes. Mayor Mitchum asked if there's a right of way problem on 31st. Mr. Watkins replied the City owns it and they just need to turn the stop signs around and stop auto traffic. Mayor Mitchum said the right of way isn't as wide as on 30th. Mr. Watkins said it's plenty wide enough for a bike path, and they can make it straight through from one end to the other. He said 30th Street will cost a million bucks and is a terrible potential hazard and if they do anything with 30th, it should be a third lane. He said the simple alternative with the only inconvenience crossing the street, which they'd have to do anyway to get to the bike path, is turn the stop signs around and make it straight through and everyone stops at 30th Street and put posts in the center to keep cars out. Mayor Mitchum asked if it's that simple. Mr. Castle said he's not that 4 Council Workshop Minutes July 23, 1990 . ~ . \ 'W" ...., Roger Watkins (Continued) familiar with either of the other streets and it may take him time to bring himself up to gear. Mayor Mitchum suggested they ask the City Attorney to rule on that and they'll have an answer Monday night. Mr. Watkins said they could totally eliminate 30th Street. Councilman Fish suggested regarding 29th and 31st, they completed the survey for the area for CIP and they need to check it regarding access. Mayor Mitchum agreed as there could be a problem with driveways turning into that street already. Mr. Watkins suggested they could have easements to their property. Nora Jane Gillespie, 1719 Willow Oak, stated they'll have bike rodeos at every elementary school in Volusia County in May and it IS through the County Bicycle Advisory Council but they1re only reaching about 7% of the children in the elementary schools. She said she1d talked with Jack Corder about an adult bike rodeo because the biggest death rate in Volusia County on bikes is age 38 to 60 and adults don1t follow the rules. She said the enlarging of the railroad crossing and moving of the gate is $40,000 is what they were told and they're working on the County about keeping that section but didn't get very far. Mayor Mitchum suggested they look at guard rails which seem to be the sticking point and he doesn't think a fence will do the job. He said someone mentioned a no passing zone and that would have to be clearly marked and enforced and dropping the speed limit to 25 MPH and enforce it. Councilman Hatfield suggested it be 15 MPH during school hours, the hour previous to school and one directly after school. Mayor Mitchum pointed out they can1t make a decision tonight but theylll get a consensus for Mr. Castle to work on and bring back. He stated money shouldn1t be an issue. He thanked people for coming to this workshop. Frank Roe said he's trying to help Council decide the issue and asked how the bikes will get on the bike path if there's a guard rail. Mayor Mitchum explained there will be openings at every street and Mr. Castle will hold that back to get bikes around it. Mr. Roe said that1s mostly where safety is involved and held like them open. He again said it1s the parentis duty. Charlene Thomas, 2944 Juniper, suggested rather than children walking across from Whistle Stop Park, they could have an overpass built and they wouldn't have to pay for a crossing guard. She pointed out it would be a one time cost to build. Tanya Wessler asked if a ticket will be issued if a bike goes on a sidewalk. Mayor Mitchum replied this is a bike path and they can walk on a bike path but can't ride a bike on a sidewalk, and it's for both. Mr. Johnson said you can ride a bike on a sidewalk unless it1s posted, and if you're not allowed to ride, it has to be posted before you can be given a ticket. Ms. Wessler agreed a bike course is fine and they can teach them how to ride in the parking lot at the schoo 1 but they do have to get back on the streets and wi 11 st ill have the problem. She said money is allotted for more parks, they already have 10 parks, and they can use that money. Councilman Hatfield said they'll find money for this and won't take away from other recreational facilities. Mayor Mitchum committed to finding the money somewhere. Ms. Wessler suggested switching the ordinance for the trucks on that road. She said regarding the 15 MPH at the school, there's a whole road with children all along it. Mayor Mitchum suggested a mot ion to adjourn. Counci lman Hatfield so moved. Councilman fish seconded the motion. Workshop was adjourned at 8:00 p.m. Minutes submitted by: Lura Sue Koserl C1cvsel MAYOR 5 'j -" ...." ...." ATTEST: J~ 1 J!~~~ r CITY CLERf' Approved th i s " day of , 199~. !" .. ~ ;}/ ~ .. .'tod/ c;:- :/i4 MAYOR -1I11..e.. 6 Council Workshop Minutes Ju ly 23, 1990