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08-12-1991 ...., ...... CITY OF EDGEW A TER FIREMEN'S PENSION BOARD REGULAR MEET I NG AUGUST 12, 1991 CITY HALL CONFERENCE ROOM Chairman Ben Wagner called the Regular Meeting of the Firemen's Pension Board to Order at 6:30 P.M. in the Conference Room of City Hall. Roll call was taken. Members present were: Lt. Larry Carson, Firefighter William Finch, Mr. Robert Morin, Mr. Al Gllbert, and Chairman Wi 11 iam "Ben" Wagner. Also present was Firefighter James Erdman and Board Secretary Lisa R. Warren. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: The Minutes of the May 20, 1991 Regular Meeting of the Firemen's Pension Board were submitted for approval. Lt. Carson moved to accept the Minutes as submitted. Firefighter Finch seconded. Motion CARRIED 5-0. The Minutes of the June 21, Special Meeting of the Firemen's Pension Board were submitted for approval. Firefighter Finch moved to approve the Minutes as presented. Mr. Morin seconded. Motion CARRIED 3-0. Lt. Carson and Chairman Wagner abstained as they were not present at that meeting. Mr. Al Gilbert gave a report regarding the Florida Publ1c Pension Trustees Association Seminar he attended in St. Petersburg on June 24th, 25th, and 26th. Mr. Gilbert gave a brief rundown on the costs of the trip. He stated the amount he paid out was $61.87 more than he received to cover the costs and that included mileage. Mr. Gl1bert stated at the Seminar he had spoken with Sgt. Westphal of the Pol1ce Pension Board. Sgt. Westphal had told Mr. Gilbert the City provided him with per diem. Mr. Gilbert stated he had checked with the Board Secretary and she told him the City didn't pay it. Mr. Gilbert stated in other places $25.00 a day is given over and above what you would ordinarily get to help offset what you would get if you were staying home doing a job and the Board is a Volunteer Job. He stated this needs to be addressed in the future as there needs to be something to keep people's interest. Mr. Gilbert stated the mlleage is about the same as everybody pays and the hote I room costs are pretty much the going rate. He stated the allocation for the meals was not bad. Mr. Gilbert stated the Seminar was very informative and there were three things that need to get done. He stated the first item was the Board Members need to be bonded as the Seminar dealt extensively with this topic saying if someone gets hurt on the Fire Department now in the position the Board is in without a full benefit plan in place, the individual that is hurt can turn around and sue each of the Board Members individually to get his money. He added the Bonding would put them in the position they could not be sued individually. He stated this needed to be checked into immediately. I ~ ..., Mr. Gllbert stated the second item he wanted to dlscuss was gett lng an Attorney of the Board's cholce to represent the Board. He stated there isn't a Board in the State that has a City Attorney representing the Board as it ls a confllct of lnterest. Mr. Gllbert stated the thlrd item was the F.R.S. monles. He stated the subject of gett1ng the checks out on time was brought up at the semlnar and the people from the State were very helpful. Lt. Carson moved to relmburse Mr. Al Gllbert ln the amount of $61.87 for monles spent at the semlnar he attended 1n St. Petersburg. Mr. Morln seconded. Mot10n CARRIED 5-0. Cha1rman Wagner stated the Board needed to set up po11c1es on how they were g01ng to do expenses s1nce more semlnars would be com1ng up 1n the future. He stated most places do pay a per d1em and he felt the Board should look 1nto so much a day to cover expenses and lodglng and travel. He asked 1f it was the pleasure of the Board to set some guldel1nes for expenses. Mr. Gllbert stated lt might be aga1nst C1ty pol1cy to do lt. Lt. Carson stated the City pays a per dlem now. Ms. Warren, Board Secretary stated the clerk at City Hall told her no. Lt. Carson stated he recelved per dlem for a class he had taken. Ms. Warren stated the clerk had told her only meals, 10dg1ng, and mlleage were pa1d for and Mr. Gllbert was asklng for somethlng other than that. Mr. Gllbert stated he was ask1ng about a per dlem to take care of the Board Member for the day whlle he was away from hls job, etc. Chalrman Wagner stated what "we" call a per d1em 1s to cover what lt takes you to live on, food, drinks, etc. and most places pay $20-$30 per day. He stated he d1dn't know what else they call lt 1f 1t ls over and above that. Mr. Gllbert stated Sargent Westphal told hlm he got lt. Ms. Warren stated 1f Mr. Gllbert asked Sargent Westphal lf he rece1ved per d1em he would have sald yes, because the City d1d wrlte Sargent Westphal a check for h1s meals and 10dg1ng. Lt. Carson stated what the City cons1ders per d1em 1s food and travel. Cha1rman Wagner stated lf Mr. Gllbert was g1ven a flat rate for food, then he d1dn't need to produce recelpts. Lt. Carson stated the way the City has lt set up now they pay $20 some per day and you don't have to turn ln recelpts or $30 per day and you have to brlng back recelpts. Mr. Gllbert stated he was wrong and they should drop 1t or ra1se the amount they allow. Chalrman Wagner stated $21.00 doesn't sound l1ke enough to eat on for the day and New Smyrna Beach pays $30.00. Flrefighter Flnch stated for $21 per day you can eat pretty good. Chalrman Wagner stated th1s was true, but lf thls penslon conference had been ln a Dade County Mr. Gl1bert probably couldn't have eaten for that. Mr. Gllbert stated there are tlps to be consldered and for a week's Conference that would come up to about $25 ln tlps. Mr. Morln stated maybe they could allow $50 per day and whatever they don't use they could brlng back. Flreflghter Flnch stated lt depends on how many days they are g01ng. Mr. Gllbert stated he was not trylng to get more money for hlmself personally, he was dolng thls for future semlnars. Mr. Morln stated 1t ls dlfferent lf you go w1th a lot of people because they l1ke to go to more expenslve places as a group. Lt. Carson moved to follow the City's pol1cles on travel and per dlem and lodglng. Mr. Morln seconded. Motlon CARRIED 5-0. Chalrman Wagner stated the Fund had recelved some money from the State although lt was not as much as the F1nance Dlrector had antlclpated. 2 ........ .....,; Chairman Wagner stated the Board should approach some bonding companies and see how much it would cost to be bonded. Mr. Morin stated he didn't see why they had to be bonded. Lt. Carson stated since the City has to make the fund actuarily sound and if somebody gets hurt the City would have to kick in the money. Chairman Wagner stated the City is required to insure the fund is actuarily sound and if someone pensioned out tomorrow they would have to kick in the money. Mr. Gi lbert stated at this particular point he would have to agree as there is no Pension Plan in place. Lt. Carson stated bonding was a good idea, but they should do some research and find out about it. Mr. Gilbert stated there is a possibility the City has a bonding company. He stated the Board also did not have access to the checkbook. Mr. Gi lbert stated at the Seminar there was discussion regarding this subject with the attorneys and they didn't see any big deal with it happening to a brand new Board and that umbrellaed them. He stated if they had a couple of hundred thousand dollars then that would be a different matter. Mr. Gilbert moved to find out through the City if the City has a bonding company for a such a thing, if that is not in place then the Board look into bonding itself as he believes it is a State Statute. Lt. Carson seconded. Motion CARRIED 5-0. Chairman Wagner stated he would see Mr. Munoz about the bonding as soon as he could set up a meeting with him. Chairman Wagner stated another item Mr. Gilbert brought up was the need for an attorney. He added he highly recommends the Board have one because he spent two years on the New Smyrna Firefighters Pension Board trying to get an Attorney and there are some good Pension attorneys out there. Mr. Gi lbert stated there were four attorneys at the conference that are well known State wide. He stated two are good with pension stuff and two are good with both pensions and investments. He stated the Board needs an attorney that knows the laws the Board can operate under, to protect the Board members, and to tell the City what can be done with the Pension other than the City Attorney. He stated just because the City is putting money into the Pension it is not their Pension; it belongs to the members. Mr. Gilbert stated he would recommend Sugarman and Suskine out of Miami or Bob Clauzner out of Hollywood, Florida. He stated he had dealt with both of them and his personal opinion is that Mr. Sugarman would do best for the Board. He added Mr. Sugarman already sits on the Holly Hill Police Pension, Port Orange Police Pension, and is working on New Smyrna. Mr. Gilbert added he does represent another dozen or so Trust Funds around the State and Mr. Sugarman would like to represent everybody up in this area on an "as need" basis so he could schedule his visits to make fewer trips down and back. At 7:20 P.M. there was a tone out for a structure fire. Firefighter Finch and Firefighter Erdman left at this time and the meeting continued. Mr. Gilbert stated Mr. Clauzner represents some big cities like Miami and Jacksonville but had recently been taken off of the General Employees of the City of Hollywood as he did not have the time. Mr. Gilbert stated he is good and has helped him with questions when he needed them. He added Mr. Sugarman has been building his practice up to do this and he has done pension boards and trust funds for over 20 years. 3 ~ ....., Mr. Morln asked what Mr. Sugarman charged for hls servlces. Mr. Gi lbert stated the fees are based on hourly rates on servlce rendered. The Attorney's rate for all servlces ln connectlon wlth the funds representat 1 on 1 s $ 1 35 per hour w 1 th no charge for trave 1 t 1 me for board meetings. Paralegal's time ls charged at the rate of $40 per hour and Research Assoclate's tlme at the rate of $75 per hour. They also blll for out of pocket costs such as photocopying, etc. Mr. Gllbert stated the practlce is State wide and thelr maln offlce ls behlnd Mlaml National Airport so there ls no problem wlth hlm catchlng a fllght. Mr. G11bert stated thls ls not an overprlced attorney. Chalrman Wagner agreed. Mr. Gllbert stated Sargent Westphal had the opportunlty to speak wlth Mr. Sugarman and Sgt. Westphal would llke to have Mr. Sugarman come and speak to hls Board and they could do them both at the same tlme. Mr. Morln and Lt. Carson agreed thls would be a good ldea. Chalrman Wagner suggested a jolnt meetlng be set up wlth the Flremen's Penslon and Pollee Penslon Boards and plck two or three days that 1t can be held on and glve Mr. Sugarman the optlon of choosing one. Mr. Gllbert stated he could call Mr. Sugarman and see when hls next trip up would be for hls other Boards. Lt. Carson stated thls was a good ldea to let hlm glve us a few dates. It was agreed upon by the Board members the next meetlng would be set up when Mr. Gllbert heard from Mr. Sugarman. Mr. Gllbert stated he had more lnformatlon to give the Board, but 1t was too early to get going on most of It. He stated the best thlng about the semlnar was the people. Chalrman Wagner thanked Mr. Gilbert for hls presentatlon. Mr. Gilbert thanked the Board for sendlng hlm to the semlnar. OLD BUS I NESS: Chalrman Wagner stated he had recelved a call from Representatlve Jack Ascherl. Chalrman Wagner stated Representatlve Ascherl asked hlm if the Board wanted hlm to give any other presentatlons and what the outcome was of hls presentation. Chalrman Wagner stated he would get back to Representatlve Ascherl and let hlm know the Board was not ready to make any commitments. He stated he had other people who are lnterested ln glvlng presentatlons to the Board. Lt. Carson stated the Board should llsten to everyone of them. Mr. Gllbert stated to save a lot of tlme the Board should see who ls taklng care of other Clty's plans and then add one or two of the other ones to the llst of people to hear. Lt. Carson stated the people wantlng to make the presentatlons should show thelr credentlals and let them flght amongst themselves to glve the Board the best package. Mr. Gllbert stated he would like to see more of the Board go to the sem i nars. Chairman Wagner called a recess at 7:42 P.M. Meeting resumed at 7:47 P.M. NEW BUSINESS: There was discussion concernlng the upcomlng Elghth Annual Trustees School to be held September 23-25, t 991. Thls School ls belng offered by the Florlda Publlc Penslon Trustees Assoclatlon. Chalrman Wagner, Mr. Gllbert, Flrefighter Flnch, and Lt. Carson all expressed a desire to attend thls semlnar. Mr. Morln moved to allow Lt. Carson, Flreflghter Flnch, Mr. Gllbert, and Chalrman Wagner to go to the semlnar September 23-25 and they be allowed to go with the standard travel and per dlem allowed. .. ~ ..., Lt. Carson seconded. Cha1rman Wagner stated 1f someone could not make It the amount would be reduced. Mot10n CARRIED 4-0. Fireflghter Finch was st 111 absent at the Rescue Ca 11. Lt. Carson stated the way the check1ng account 1s set up now, the C1ty can put in and take money out of the pension account. Mr. Mor1n requested there be a short recess. Chairman Wagner called a Recess at 7:53 P.M. Meeting was resumed at 7:54 P.M. Lt. Carson stated he would like to see the Board get the1r own check1ng account where the people on the Board were responsible for the checking account. He stated there should be one or two ma1n people with authorized signatures and maybe an alternate so they cut their own checks. Chairman Wagner agreed th1s is probably the next 10glcal step they w11l take. Mr. Gi lbert stated when the fund got larger there would be an 1nvestment group handling it. Mr. Mor1n stated they should have three s1gnatures on the account. Lt. Carson stated Chairman Wagner m1ght want to discuss this wlth Mr. Munoz when he had h1s meet1ng wlth h1m. Chairman Wagner agreed. Lt. Carson moved to check on gett1ng the check1ng account set up so that the only people that can sign the checks are the Pension Board members themselves wlth three slgnatures, two of wh1ch release. Mr. Mor1n seconded. Motion CARRIED 4-0. Mr. Gi lbert stated he had asked the secretary to flnd out 1nformat 10n on the City supply1ng business cards. He stated at the conferences business cards are very helpful as everyone wants to know where to send informat10n. He stated the secretary told h1m the City did not supply cards and he felt the Board should think about doing it. Ms. Warren asked if the Board had considered hav1ng 500 cards made up leaving the names blank and each Board Member putting their name on their cards. Mr. Morin stated the Board should also cons1der a br1ef case. Cha1rman Wagner stated the Board should check 1nto some pr1ces and bring the 1nformation back. Firefighter Finch returned at 8:02 P.M. and the Board informed him of ltems which had taken place during his absence. Lt. Carson moved to adjourn. Mr. Morin seconded. Meeting adjourned at 8:04 P.M. Minutes Respectfully Submitted By: Lisa R. Warren Board Secretary lw 5