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09-03-1975 - Special ---......... , ~ ..., CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF EDGEWATER, FLORIDA SPECIAL MEE'l'ING SEPTEMBER 3, 1975 The special meeting of the City Council of the City of Edgewater, Florida was called to order September 3, 1975, by Mayor David C. Severance. ROLL CALL Mayor David C. Severance Councilman Jacob Lodico Councilman William H. Cairnie Councilman Walter B. Sikes Councilman Calvin R. Dietz City Manager Dale N. Bryant City Attorney Joseph E. Weaver City Clerk Sue Blackwell Present Present Present Present Present Present Present Present Mayor Severance explained the procedure which will be followed during the meeting tonight. He asked that everyone cooperate and conduct themselves in proper manner, if anyone gets out of order or disturbs the meeting, they will be escorted from the hall. Each charge will be read, the City Manager will then have the floor to make comments on that particular charge, then the members of the Council will ask questions of the manager to that item only, then Chief Katez and his counsel will have an opportunity to rebut and questions will be asked by the Counci~ when all of this is concluded questions from the floor may be asked if they pertain to that item only, not statements of support or non support. Every- one with a question is asked to come to the front and speak into the microphone. Chief Katez spoke to the audience asking them please to conduct them- selves as law abiding citizens and accept the decision of the Council. Tape 1 Side A 5 min. Councilman Sikes was given the floor, he stated that he has talked to Chief Katez and his Counsel, and like a lot of people present, it is not the desire of the Council to hurt Mr. Katez as an individual. The problem goes back some time, it was stated in the meeting of July, 1974 which was open for the public, that he has no objection to this except that he feels that there are certain places that you should laundry your dirty linen and the public is not one of them. Chief Katez stated at this meeting that he knows the Police Depart- ment has problems. Councilman Sikes stated that we could leave this meeting tonight and there will be a lot of them that will be hurt other than possibly George, and we might have to make a decision that will be an unpopular decision, based on certain things. Council- man Sikes states that he spoke to Mr. Katez and he mentioned that he had planned on possibly retiring, and that in October he will reach the age of 62 and if the harrassment continues he plans to retire, so, we talked along these lines and he has agreed along this bases however he wants 10 minutes of this groups time to talk it over with his attorney and because of the Sunshine Law we need to talk it among the Council that we accept his resignation as of October 30 that we pay him up to that time, that we grant him a leave of absence with pay and with all the rights of insurance and hospitalization and that all the charges be dropped and the hearing be dismissed. Mr. Sikes stated that Chief Katez's attorney has asked that the Council vote on this before we go further with this meeting, and Mr. Sikes stated that he would like to add that subject to the resignation that as of November 1st Mr. Katez will retire. Mr. Sikes made this in the form of a motion, being seconded by Councilman Cairnie. Mrs. Woodard asked if a new Chief would be hired and also paid at this time. 'w' ...", Mayor Severance stated that this will have to be discussed, however a new Chief could not be found in thirty days. Mr. Walter Gross spoke asking the City Manager to withdraw his charges. Mayor Severance stated that we have a motion and a second on the floor, after this we can hear other motions. Councilman Sikes stated that if this is accepted the meeting will immediately adjuurn and no other motions be heard or business taken care of. Mr. Wharton asked if the Council would rescind the suspension? Mayor Severance stated that the suspension would automatically be rescinded if the motion carries. Councilman Lodico asked if this would mean that the Chief would still work until he retires? Mayor Severance explained that a leave of absence would be given to the Chief. Marge Andrews asked why this was not put in the paper? 10 min. Mayor Severance stated that it was not known about until now. , Bill Anders spoke to the Council that he was at the meeting the other night and he left early, but he does remember that it was said that nothing could be done except set a time for this hearing, he would like to know how the Chief could be suspended? Mayor Severance stated that we are getting out of order and we are not on the question at hand. Mr. Anders stated that he would like to ask the Chief if this will be a long term thing? Chief Katez stated that he could save the ten minutes by saying right now that his answer will be no. Mayor Severance stated that there is a motion and a second on the floor. Upon roll call vote said motion CARRIED. All Councilmen voting YES. Mayor Severance stated that now we need an answer from the Chief as to whether he will acc~pt the motion. Chief Katez stated that he will not accept the recommendation. Mayor Severance stated that we will begin with the charges. Mayor Severance read the memorandum from the City Manager to the City Council recommending the termination of the Chief of Police. #1. The charge was read in full by Mayor Severance. 15 min. Mr. Bryant was given the floor, he stated that the memorandum was self explanatory. He stated that the Council was made aware of this procedure and the procedure was followed for a two to three month period of time and then it just stopped. Mr. Bryant added that he received no questions or suggestions concerning this procedure therefore we proceeded with the procedure as he had outlined. Councilman Lodico - Was this carried out? Mr. Bryant - Yes, for two or three months. -2- ....., 'WII' Chief Katez - We did have a departmental request forms and we made those out for about three months. Mrs. Leclair said there were no more in the safe. I asked Mr Bryant about the things and he said keep on reporting. OUr dispatchers wrote the location of the street and everything on a sheet of paper and put this slip of paper on Mr. Martine's spindle, Mr. Martine's man would come in the next morning and pick up all messages on his spindle and go out and take care of the work. The work was done, and I went to Mr. Bryant about it, and this is where I possibily made my mistake by not getting the answer in writing. 20 min. Mr. Woods - This is beauro~cy at its best. The paperwork involved in reporting simple potholes in the street requires complete reports, three copies, whereas a note would have done the same thing. Joe Martine - Stated that he is the person in charge of repairing potholes and washouts in the streets of Edgewater. - We pick up the slips in City Hall and I send the boys out to fix it. Mr. Woods - Is it true that you have a man that circulates throughout the City of Edgewater looking for potholes and washouts. Joe Martine - Not every day, but about once a week we do. Mr. Woods - All of this paper work, when a telephone call to Mr. Martine accomplishes the same thing. Councilman Sikes - Mr. Martine has anyone reported a pothole on Indian River Boulevard east of U.S. 1? Mr. Martine - Yes, and we haven't had time to get to it, because we just got it last week. Councilman Sikes - Have you been getting these reports weekly or daily from the spindle on the Clerk's desk? Mr. Martine - Yes, and we got them there before too. Councilman Sikes - Did you ever give a report back to the City Manager that you had attempted to fill certain pot holes on certain streets? Mr. Martine - We keep track of them ourself, anything you want to know we will tell you. Councilman Lodico - These potholes that you are talking about are they reported to you by the Police Department or citizens or you find them yourselves? 25 min. Mr. Martine - Some by the police, some by the public and some we find ourselves. Mayor Severance - Have you received any of those forms from the Police Department in the last six months? Mr. Martine - No, no form, but the slips of paper are received from the Police Department. Mayor Severance - So, you are still receiving communications on paper in writing from the Police Department personnel in regards to pot holes and street conditions at the present time. 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The charge was read in full by Mayor Severance. Mr. Bryant - After coming to Edgewater and talking to certain members of the Police department it appeared to me that there was almost a total lack of, if you will, training outside of the required training required by the State in order to serve the capacity of a police officer. I felt that in presenting a training program to our police department that it would make better officers out of them, to better serve the public in a capacity other than strictly patrolling as my memorandum indicates I did have some discussion with the Chief on the matter and he apparently concurred with me and consequently I wrote the memo- randum to the Chief. Mr. Woods - Mr. Bryant, exactly what type of training program did you have in mind for the officers? And you said that you were going to give him some direction, did you do this? Mr. Bryant - I asked the Chief to establish, if you will, a training program, he very obviously did not Prepare the training courses and decide to communicate because I received no answer of it. Mr. Woods - Your answer is unresponsive, Mr. Bryant, what direction did you give him and what type of training program did you have in mind? Mr. Bryant - The mayor just got through reading the memorandum Mr. Woods - I asked you, not the mayor. 15 min. Mr. Bryant - And I will add, I asked the Chief Mr. Woods - Isn't it true that all of the officers have received some training, that was brought about by work scheduling by Chief Katez, so that these men could receive the training? Mr. Woods listed the following men under training programs: Officer Kelley, Officer Tillotson, Officer Page, Officer Realmuto, all officers except McCall, Westfall and Page have had 40 hours of the breathalizer training. Chief - Officer Rickelman is going through a correspondence course of Institute of Applied Science. Mr. Bryant - I would like to ask each of the officers if they were taking any of these classes through the suggestion of the Chief or by his assistance or if any arrangements were being made by the Chief or did they arrange these extra curricular activities on their own. Mayor Severance - Each officer may answer yes or no to that question, or you may reserve the right to answer no comment. Officer Rickelman - The Council was approached by Chief Katez about my course. Officer Westfall - The Chief assisted me in essence of working my schedule around so that I could attend school. Officer Realmuto - The Chief did assist me, I was encouraged to go to this school by the Chief. 20 min. Officer Page - The Chief is assisting me in the scheduling so that I can attend school. Officer Tillotson - I am now attending Daytona Beach Junior College and my schedule was worked so that I could attend school. Mr. Bryant - During the month of March was there some confusion on your part because of the lack of long-term scheduling, if you will, for shift work to the point that you did not know if you could attend school? -6- W' ..,; Councilman Lodico - It is not the citizens decision as to whether the Chief is to be fired, they did not hire Mr. Katez, we are the responsible party. Mayor Severance - There will be no further statements made from the Councilor the floor in regard to the procedures of the City Council. Les Coals - Asked the Chief if he could cover all the streets in Edgewater, and still have men patroling? Chief Katez - No. Councilman Lodico - We never intended the Chief to go out and look for pot holes, that is what he has men for, while they are out patrolling this is when they are to report these conditions. Ruth Yule - Asked the City Manager if he doesn't think that our Police Department has more important things to do than to look for potholes in the City of Edgewater. Mr. Bryant - It was not my intent for Police Officers to fill out this report, they would, while they are patrolling, they could radio the dispatcher, and the dispatcher could fill out the reports. Chief Katez - I would like to point out to the Council that the job was done, it just wasn't done in the manner that the City Manager wanted it done. We were out of the forms, I went to him with the situation, there was nothing done, so we continued doing it the best way we could. Mr. Bryant - I submit, that we are in the City Clerk just went over to City that we are talking about right here. ask the daytime dispatcher, as a matter forward and answer yes or no if she did out of the forms. fact, not out of the forms, Hall and here are the forms I would further like to of fact, if she would come tell the Chief that we were Mayor Severance - I would like to ask the daytime dispatcher to come forward please. Mrs. Woodard asked if she would be under oath. Mayor Severance - Mr. Martine was not under oath, This is a question and you can answer yes or no and you reserve the right to answer no comment if you so desire. Mrs. Leclair - No. At this time Mr. BRyant repeated the question for Mr. Lodico. Mr. Woods - Another words she did not tell the Chief that we were out of forms. 10 min. Mr. Bryant - She didn't tell him that we were out of forms, he just got finished saying that we were out of forms and he came in and told me that we were out o~ ~orms. Mr. Woods - Mr. Bryant, and Council members, I think that this is so petty that it doesn't even bear decision. Mrs. Opel - Why did she ask if she had to take an oath, i~ she had to take an oath, she would answer the question, so she is lying. Mayor Severance - She did not ask if she had to take an oath, Mrs. Woodard did. -5- '-" ..."" Mr. Woods - That is irrelevant Mr. Bryant - I say it is relevant, because I am the one who insisted upon the long-term schedule in order to allow this type of training. The mayor will verify the fact because he and I had several discussions on the matter. Mayor Severance - I want no question left unanswered or unasked, because if we are going to open this up we are going to open it up all the way. Officer Tillotson - I did have a conversation with the City Manager and I made it known that I desired to go to school, Mr. Bryant did recommend that I put it in writing and follow the correct channels and write a memo to the Chief. I did this, and my schedule was arranged so that I could attend school. Chief Katez - Officer Tillotson, when the work schedule came out, is it true that I said to you that it would be arranged so that you could attend school? Officer Tillotson - Yes, Chief Katez did say that regardless of how the shift was set up I would be able to attend school. Chief Katez - Mayor, did you come up with the idea of a watts list of a year in advance before Mr. Bryant came here? Mayor Severance - Yes I did Mr. Bryant - Mayor, is it not true that you and I had a discussion on this year's worth of scheduling, and did not I indicate to you that I was having some trouble in receiving this schedule and if we gave the Chief a deadline for which to submit a schedule? Mayor Severance - Yes, I discussed this with the Chief in the past and I have discussed it with Mr. Bryant and had it put in memorandum form as a matter of a morale factor that the schedule be made up one year in advance, however I believe I told the Chief six months in advance so that the officers would be able to know ahead of time when they would be working. Chief Katez - Mr. Bryant did I not ask you for an extension on that deadline because it was almost utterly impossible with the other memorandums you had given me, and you refused that extension? Mr. Bryant - No sir I did not, it was discussed with the Mayor, and you were, in fact, given the extension on that deadline. Tape 2 Side A Mayor Severance - I can not say what developed between you and the Chief in regards to the extension, however I did aproach you and I did approach the Chief because of another assignment he had in allowing him to have an extension of time to prepare the watts list so that the other item could be taken care of. Mr. Bryant - Officer Tillotson, I believe you indicated to me that you had approached the Chief prior to your letter to me requesting a watts schedule to allow you to go to school, and this is why I told you that we would go to the chain of command, give the Chief a request which will come to me and then we would go back down through the channels. Officer Tillotson - Yes, at that time the schedule of the shifts was debatable and it was all tied up in the air. Chief Katez - Officer Tillotson, did I know that you had been to the City Manager when I promised you that we would work out the watts list so that you could go to school? -7- '-' ..,,; Officer Tillotson - I don't remember, however I mentioned it in the letter. Chief Katez - You told me verbally before I got the letter though, is that right? Officer Tillotson - Yes Mr. Bryant - I still say that it boils down to the fact that I had asked for a progressive training program, I asked for a program to be laid out, following the development of the program I asked that it be coordinated with myself and that we would then develop recommendations to go to the Merit Board for all of the persons such as the City Council and I submit sir, that this has not been accomplished. Mayor Severance - What you are saying, Mr. Bryant, is that you have not received in writing from the Chief the request you had in re- gards to a program being developed for subsequent Merit Board presentation, is that correct? Mr. Bryant - Yes. Councilman Lodico - How long ago was it that you asked this to be done, one month, or what, I am speaking of the scheduling. Mr. Bryant - This memorandum is dated October 2, 1974, and I believe I received a schedule for one year in advance in April, 1975. Mr. Woods - What kind of training program are you talking about? These officers have attended Daytona Beach Community College and are receiving professional training without costing the City of Edgewater the payment of any over time, how do you respond to that? Mr. Bryant - This is exactly why we have a PoliceChief, and I would think that as the head of that department he, being in police work, if you will, could administer those courses that might be helpful in carrying out their jobs. Mr. Mayor, I still maintain that I made the request and it was not carried out, and if in fact, the Chief felt that we did not need the training program he should have answered my memorandum in writing, stating why, and in fact if he did have one why didn't he report to me in fact that we did have one. Chief - I will answer Mr. Bryant, if he didn't know it, who signed the devise for me to get the money that the men had to go to the breathalizer test, it had to be okayed by Mr. Bryant, and I went to Mr. Bryant and asked him for them to go. Chief - Mr. Weaver, how long have I been trying to get you and Jud~on Woods to hold a training for court procedures in my Police office. Mr. Weaver - Yes, we did discuss that, about the time that Mr. Woods came on as Municipal Judge. Chief - Why was it never carried out. Mr. Weaver - Because of pressing matters, we just never got around to it. Mr. Taylor - As I remember, Mr. Bryant did not have control over the Police Department at this time. Mr. Bryant - Reading from the Ordinance which gave him authority over the Police Department, it was dated the 30th day of September, 1974. -8- '-' """"'" Jim Nichols - I would like to know what specific training was to be established by the Police Chief if the City Manager was in charge of the Police Department. Mayor Severance - The City Manager is in charge of the departments administratively, in regard to any type of education, training, etc, I would even myself assume that the Department Heads would know what of training those particular people under him should have. Mr. Nichols - What about the pay raises for these men who received the training. Mayor Severance - This would have to be suggested by the Chief, and the Merit Board.' Mr. Odell - Based on your past administration of Police Departments, is the training, scheduling, not usually set up by a training officer and not by the Chief of Police? Mr. Bryant - In this case, since the Police Department did not have specified officer with that duty, then it fell on the Police Chief. Mr. Odell - Would that have not been more in order than the Chief of Police to do? Mr. Bryant - If the Chief thought that it was advisable to have a training officer he should have advised me that he was appointing one. Mr. Odell - With a City which has had no training program what would be a normal time limit for setting up a full training program? Mr. Bryant - A month is ample time to at least draw up an outline and call some people and coordinate some activities. Chief -Lt. Snell is the training officer for New Smyrna Beach and I did attempt to set up a program for the next time New Smyrna Beach P.D. had a training program that my officer would be allowed to attend. Mrs. Katez - If the City Manager did not specify what type of training program he was talking about, and these officers have testified that they are receiving training, doesn't that answer the questions? Mr. Bryant - What I asked for the development of a program and coordination with myself which was never made. I suggest requesting a recommendation from the Merit Board for presentation to the City Council and it has not been done. 15 min. #3. The charge was read in full by Mayor Severance. Mr. Bryant - Shortly after I came here I noticed that the flag was being flown 24 hours a day, I brought this to the attention to the City Council. I did quite a bit of research on the proper display of the American flag, it is a Federal Law that the flag be displayed properly, and I was instructed by the City Council, if you will, to see that the flag was properly displayed and handled in a proper manner and in my reports to the City Council I indicated that because the Police Department did serve three shifts a day around the clock that it is my opinion that it would be most practical, if you would, that this duty be assigned to officers while they were on patrol to handle the matter. I received no objections to this procedure and accordingly wrote the memorandum as is attachment #3. 20 min. Councilman Sikes - We might mention that we had numerous calls from people complaining that the flag was being flown at half mass and so on. -9- ~ ..., Councilman Lodico - Was their order obeyed or was it disobeyed very often? Mr. Bryant - I have on several occasions when I just happened to be down here in the evenings and one morning I came to work early about 5:30 and the flag was up at that time. I can't commemorate by date a condition under which the flag was improperly displayed. Councilman Cairnie - Was there any system set up so that the dis- patcher would remind an officer that the flag was still up? Mr. Bryant - If there was, it was not to my knowledge. Chief - The dispatchers weren't notified by me to notify the officers, a lot of times the officer would get busy, not just forget to do it. Mr. Bryant, what illegal way was that flag flying, and what time? Mr. Bryant - The most recent occasion was August 26, as a matter of fact it was on a Tuesday evening when we had bingo here and the flag was still flying at 10:30 P.M. and wet. Chief - This is the point I am getting at, the officer was probably busy and couldn't get to it. As far as the flag flying illegally, are you talking about the time that you came in and it was down at half mass? Mr. Bryant - I didn't say anything about that, I know how that happened. Chief - You didn't want to say anything, but it is in my charges and I would like to tell the Council, why and the attitude you had on it. I have an offense report made out by an officer. Mr. Byrant - Yes, I walked out of City Hall one day and the flag was flying at half mass, I went back into City Hall and I asked if someone died that I am not aware of? The answer was, the rope slipped and what the answer was to me was lets get a longer rope. 25 min. Chief - What reply did you make to the officer? The point that I am trying to bring out here Councilmen, that this is just, assinine, I would like to read Mr. Bryant's comment to the officer. Mr. Bryant - Mayor, before Chief reads that, I am very well aware of it, and I want to tell you the tenure of the situation and the officer involved was Officer Page. I was simply asking why the flag was flying at half mass and the next thing I know I have a written report on my desk. I thought it was something of a facetious nature, if you will, so I answered it in a facetious tone, if you will, and then here comes another one, so I walked in the clerk's office and I said wait a minute, this has got to stop, I considered this to be in a facetious tone and I answered you in the same tone. 'rape 2 Side B Chief - It just so happens Mr. Bryant that you just happened to get a copy of all the men's reports that I get from my officers. Your answer to him was if the Edgewater P.D. has trouble stretching rope in order to prevent same from slipping, the City Manager will be glad to give individual or group instructions on how to accomplish such a difficult task. Now I ask you is that how a grown man as head of a department is to answer a police officer? Mr. Bryant - As a matter of fact I indicated before Chief Katez read that the tenure in which I wrote it because I didn't feel like that when I came back into City Hall and asked why the flag was flying at half mass that I needed a written report, if you will. -10- W' .."" Mr. Woods - Mr. Bryant, who furnished you with the code of citations on flag raising? Mr. Bryant - As a matter of fact, my wife did, she got it from the library in Daytona Beach. Mr. Woods - Is it illegal to fly the flag at night? Mr. Bryant - Yes. Mr. Woods - Why is the flag flying over the capital day and night with a light on it? Mr. Bryant - By presidential proclamation, and no where in all the instances that they spell out where the flag can be flown at night with a light, I might add, does it say in there in front of the Edgewater Community Center, or in front of the volunteer fire depart- ment of Edgewater. Mr. Woods - Mr. Bryant before you came here we had a flag displayed out front with a light on it, and it was removed, is this correct? Mr. Bryant - REading from the flag code: The flag should be flown only from sunrise to sunset upon special o~casions, however it may be displayed at night to produce the patriotic effect. Mr. Woods - That answers the question Mr. Bryant - Another words, at sports events, and it enumerous certain events. Mr. Woods - If you are such an expert about flag raising, why don't you raise it when you come here in the morning and lower it when you leave in the evening, or have the custodian do it instead of having a police officer do it and take him off of duty. Mr. Bryant - Because I asked the police department to do it and that ought to be sufficient, until my bosses tell me that I shouldn't do it. Mr. Woods - That is the indication that you could direct Mr. Katez to draw hopscotch lines down the front of Community Center and he would have to do it? Mr. Bryant - If that's what the City Council directed me to have done that is exactly what I would do. Mr. Woods - I think every tax payer here would revolt. Martha Rich - I have two grandsons who are in the service, and my son flies his flag in front of his home day and night and he will until they come home. Mayor Severance - That is a private home, I argued the question myself, the law does spell it out, and you must receive permission from the U.S. Congress to do so. Councilman Lodico - We are missing the entire point, as I see it, this Council has directed the City Manager, and he does what we say or else. Mayor Severance - Chief, did you at any time, once you received this memo from the City Manager in regard to the flag raising, did you at any time in writing or verbally instruct your police officers to carry out this order? Chief - It was done verbally, they are all well aware of it. Mayor Severance - Did you say earlier that you in fact did instruct the dispatchers to remind or contact the officers and tell them the flag was still up. -11- '-" ...., Chief - I said that I did not tell them. Tape 2 Side B 5 min. Betty Bosse - Chief Katez, do I have to wait for an officer to take the flag down when there is a prowler outside of my house? Chief Katez - No mam. Betty Bosse - Have you or any of your men ever been disrespectful to the American flag? Chief - No mam. Mr. Clinton - Mr. Bryant, you stated that when you were hired you noticed the way the flag had been flown around here and you took it on yourself to do the checking up. Mr. Bryant - I brought it to the attention of the City Council and then I made a report on it. Mr. Clinton - When did you take office, Mayor? Mayor Severance - Late January or early February, 1974. Mr. Clinton - The flag was flown at half mass when Mr. Dimm died, is that correct? Mayor Severance - That is correct. Mr. Clinton - Mr. Bevel brought it up to the City Council about the flag because he had people complaining about it,when Mr. Bryant got to this job he has right now did not the City Council tell him, did Mr. Bevel bring encyclopedias and did everybody concerned look at encyclopedias, and we did not know anything about the flag, and when he made the statement a while ago that he was the one who saw how the flag was being flown in Edgewater and that he is the one who brought it to the Council is an untrue statement, and you people know it. Mr. Bryant - I submit that apparently when these other occasions were brought to the City Council that I was not here and wasn't aware that it had been brought to the Council, if in fact, it had. I simply brought it up, I was directed by the Council to take care of it. I might like to add, in regard to any disrespect was shown to the flag bv members of the Police Department, and I sub- mit sir, that I would like to ask Mr. Weaver if he was in the Police Department in the early hours of Sunday morning and what conditions in which he found the two flags in the Police Department. Mr. Weaver - Yes I was there with Mr. Bryant and I found the two flags wadded up on top of the fili~g cabinet. Mrs. Murphy - With all of this talking and arguing that is going on, I wonder if there is a job description sheet of the duties, responsibilities and procedures of the Police Chief of the City of Edgewater? Mayor Severance - I have never seen a writen job description of any of the department heads of the City. Mrs. Murphy - Who determines these responsibilities? Mayor Severance - Should be determined by the City Council and the City Manager? Mrs. Murphy - And this is on a day to day basis; any day you can see something else that you feel should be the responsibility of the Chief? -12- 'W' .."", Mayor Severance - At the present time, yes. Mrs. Murphy - Who places the priority on the duties,responsibilites and procedures of the Chief? Mayor Severance - It would be up to the Chief of Police, I might add that the City Charter does in fact give in my opinion,generaliza- tion not in specifics as to the duties of the department heads, but it is not a specific job description. Mr. Nichols - I would like to know if any of these Councilmen has seen a uniformed officer in any City do the daily raising and lowering of the flag, outside of the military? Mayor Severance - Yes sir Councilman Dietz - Orlando Mayor Severance - New Smyrna Beach, Daytona Beach, the custodian for Edgewater is a part time employee. #4. The charge was read in full by Mayor Severance. Mr. Bryant - In connection with this memorandum, it was indicated to me that the Chief was to be a working chief, and he was to patrol a certain number of hours a day, it was also indicated to me by members of this City Council that prior to coming to Edge- water, the Chief had been directed by the City Council, in fact, to patrol four hours a day. Is this true Mayor? Mayor Severance - Yes sir, by motion, second and the unanimous vote of the Council he was instructed to patrol four hours of each day. Mr. Bryant - Reletive to that,with the administrative duties that I placed on the Chief I felt that a minimum of two hours a day would be sufficient, with the administrative duties that I placed on him to carry out certain instructions for which the City Council had directed me to do or that I had discussed with individual mem- bers of the Council as to what some of my plans were for, if you will, carrying out certain administrative programs. If you will recall the memorandum concerning the report that I requested in order to keep informed on all of these things that I had aaked the Chief to take care of, some of them would take a few hours, some of them would take a few d~ys to set up, but I realized that there might be a conflict, if you will, in order to accomplish some of these administrative duties with his patrolling, so there- fore I did say that I realize that there would be days that he can't and to please report this, not a day to day activity, but to report by exception when this directive could not be carried out. 15 min. Chief - I did patrol, sometimes I was out 45 minutes a day and some- times I was out three hours a day. This was not done in order from 9 to 12, sometimes it was cut in half because I would be called back into the City Hall, however if the radio log was kept accurately, it is on the radio log. I asked Mrs. Leclair to put it on the radio log every time I was in that car whether it was 10 minutes or an hour.to If it was accurately kept, it is on that radio log. Mr. Bryant - As a matter of fact, I submit, that the radio log will show that he in fact did not patrol for two hours a day or anywhere near it. Mr. Woods - We would like to see the induction of that evidence. Mr. Bryant - That is a matter of public record in the City Hall -13- ... ..., Mr. Woods - I think the records could verify what you are saying, but I think you would be waisting everybody's time here trying to go throught. Mr. Bryant - Mr. Katez was the one who entered into evidence the radio log. Mr. Woods - Mr. Bryant, you have a statement in here that you are of the opinion that there is a direct corrilation between patrolling and the issuance of traffic violations. Did you ever make the state- ment to Mr. Katez that you were dissatisfied with the amount of fines and forfeitures that are collected by the City of Edgewater, Florida? Mr. Bryant - No sir, I don't recall making that statement. Mr. Woods - But you said a direct corrilation is that correct? Mr. Bryant - Yes sir, I say if you don't patrol, you can't write tickets. Mr. Woods - Which is more important, writing traffic tickets or patrolling for crime? Mr. Bryant - The question that you ask Mr. Woods, is very obvious, however, I am not going to answer the kind of question, I am just not going to do it. Mr. Woods - This is what you expect Chief Katez to do, besides serving as the one man Chamber of Commerce for the City of Edgewater to go around and checking businesses to see how they are doing? Mayor Severan ce - I directed the City Manager to instruct the Chief of Police and as I remember I told George in many discussions that I thought that it was proper in a community of this size for the businesses to get to know the Chief of Police and for him to verbally to have conversations with them while out on patrol, now as far as traffic tickets go I dont think it was the feeling on the City Managers part that the Chief of Police should patrol and see whether you can write a ticket. However, if a patrolman is out patrolling he is going to write a ticket. It is my opinion that it is impor- tant that the businesses learn and know and have the respect of the Chief of Police and his department. Mr. Woods - Have you had any complaints from the businesses about the Chief of Police? Mayor Severance - I have had none from the businesses. 20 miIJ.. Councilman Lodico - I have had people ask me why there is no patrol- man on the school crossing on Ocean and the Highway? Chief - The County has taken over the school zoning on all County road and State Roads, however the City Manager did ask me to take the school zone at Ocean and Old County Road, which I did do until the end of school last year. Councilman Sikes - Chief, you stated a minute ago that if the log was kept correctly it would show that you patrolled two hours a day. Who keeps that log? Chief - Mrs. Leclair, the daytime dispatcher. Mrs. Leclair was not in the audience so that she could be questioned. Mr. Woods - Do all the department heads make a monthly report to you? -14- 'W' ."., Mr. Bryant - I receive a report from the Water and Sewer Departments by subject, if you will, concerning the matters of the respective departments. 25 min. Mr. Woods - Through a memorandum on December 16, 1974 to Chief Katez: Please advise me at your earliest convenience a status report of those projects you have been assigned. I would like this report in writing and submitted to me by the 15th of each month until the items have been concluded. Once one item has been completed and reported complet~, drop it from the report. Also there is a list of the various items. December 30, 1974 the Chief wrote a memorandum back to you which read that : In order to carry out subject pursuant to the list in the memorandum dated December16, 1974, this will be carried out as soon as pos- sible. Is this not correct? Mr. Bryant - Do you have the list of items there? Mr. Woods - read the 13 items which were listed on the memorandum dated December 16, 1975. Mr. Woods read from the memorandum of the Chief in regard to each of these items. Tape 3 Side A Mr. Bryant - I maintain that there has never been a schedule of the police vehicles to certain officers while on duty, and that in fact an additional personnel safety program was initiated and in fact, died, and that the automobile safety program was initiated and that died. In other words they aren't being done today, and these three items particularly are to be carried on. Mr. Woods - I think that the Chief has answered your question about patrolling and the memorandums we can get to later, there is another memorandum: To the City Manager, there are no memorandums from you on record for me to report on. Pursuant to your instructions I have placed Pete putting up signs on Juniper and Royal Palm Streets, Mr. Woods read the entire memorandum mentioning other activities, and stating that if there are any parts you have mentioned today that I have not completed please refresh my memory and I will be glad to attend to them. Mr. Bryant - I submit that that is a report received February 15th and of course we are speaking on the item here #5 on my memorandum and I submit that there is no report for August, July or June. Mayor - What we are reporting of is the monthly reports. Mr. Woods - You said that you wanted the reports by exception, is that not correct? Mr. Bryant - Yes sir, I can still maintain that the radio log will show that the patrolling of two hours a day was not done. Mr. Woods - You do not have the radio log to prove your statement. Mr. Bryant - As a matter of fact it was the Chief who brought the radio log in in the first place, and I submit that if he brought them in you should produce them to verify your clients statement. Chief - I did say that if the radio log was accurately kept by the day dispatcher. Mr. Woods - One clarification, Mr. Bryant, certain proof is upon you, you have made the charges, and proof has not been made. Mr. Bryant - I did not speak to the radio logs in any of my memor- andums. Councilman Cairnie - It says on the memorandum that the reports are to be received by the 15th of the month, did you receive that report? Mr. Bryant - I did through the month of May. -15- '-' ...., Mayor - You have not received a monthly report since May from the Chief? Mr. Bryant - No. Counse~man Sikes - Chief, did you at any time get any of your officers to help you with any of these duties you had to do? Chief - Not that I recall. Councilman Sikes - Why not? Chief - Because I had orders from the City Mangger to do it myself. I might bring up a point on the occupational license checks; I got some static from the business people about coming and asking for these licenses. They said that this has never been done before, the copies are in City Hall. I did ask Mr. Bryant for assistance from myofficers to do this, and he said do it yourself. Councilman Sikes - Of course anything pertaining to the Police Department would have had to be through direction by you, now wouldnt it have been easier for you to ask some of the patrolmen to help you out on some of these items? Chief - Yes, but it seems that Mr. Bryant is trying to put my men on the spot about not reporting, I did not ask them because I was directed by Mr. Bryant to do things myself. They were instructed on the flag and on the potholes. Councilman Sikes - You would not have felt at ease if he had directed these duties to any other officer, the only way he could direct it to the police officers is to direct it to you, not necessarily for you to do all of the work, but for you to see that it was done. Chief - Mr. Sikes, the situation was that the way that it was directed to me, I understood that I had to do it. 5 min. Mayor - Lets clarify something, you did in fact come to me and request that I talk to the City Manager to allow you or to ask him the question could you assign the duty of occupational license check to an officer in your department, and the reason for your request to do so was because.you at the same time were instructed by myself and the City Manager to come up with a watts list for one year in advance. These two items overlapped each other and you could not work on the watts list and complete the occupational license check at the same time and meet the dead line, therefore your request was that you utilize an officer to do the occupational license check so that you could devote full time on the watts list. However, you were in essence given an extension on the occupational license check. Chief - This is the point I was trying to make, I was denied a request of another month on the watts list. I was given the ex- tension on the occupational license, not the watts list. Mayor - That is right. Mr. Armenio - The Chief has stopped several times to talk to me during business hours. Paul Walls - I would like to ask the size of the administrative staff of the Police Department? Mayor - I would say one and a half. Paul Walls - If the Chief is the administrative staff,where did he find the time to answer all of the City Manager's memos and still have time to go out and patrol for two hours? -16- ~ ~ Mr~. Katez - Getting back to where you said about the memos you requested on the 15th of the month and they stopped off in May. Did you not say that you did not request a daily report on activities, did you not say that he wanted a report on an exception bases, in fact, when certain things did not happen or when a routine or schedule was broken or when certain activities occur? Mayor - There was a memo to that effect, what brought that memo about was a discussion between me and the Police Chief in regards to preparing a detailed drawing of what he does, this is not the intent, the intent was as you read, by exception, if he didn't patrol, why, for example he was in court on Tuesday morning. Mrs. Katez - Then if those things didn't occur he was to report? Mayor - That is correct. Mrs. Katez - Mr. Bryant, did you request Mr. Katez to gather up all of his memos because you didn't have yours, and make you a copy of them in the City hall on the xerox machine so that you would know what you had given him and what he had to answer. 10 min. Mr. Bryant - In the first place, on some occasions when I give a memorandum out I don't necessarily need a copy of it, so therefore I did not retain a copy, I didn't even have a copy made. Secondly, Mrs. Katez - Doesn't that give an indication that the Chief of Police was pretty up on his job that he had all your memos, and all the answers to them? Mr. Bryant - I maintain, that he didn't have them all, as a matter of fact ~ou claim that you have a copy of all the memorandums and all of the answers, and I maintain that if this is so the Chief again has not followed orders by giving me everything he had, because I have memorandas that he did not give me copies of. Mrs. Katez - You asked for all the memorandas that were pertaining to the charges being brought here tonight. Mr. Bryant - No, I asked for all of them period, as a matter of fact, if again I might add, he gave me a whole tassle of memorandas and as a matter of fact in some cases three and four copies of the same memorandum that didn't even pertain to this subject matter, and for your information I have them right here. Mrs. Katez - Can you say that the Chief of Police hasn't worked 14 to 16 hours a day for the three years that he has been chief of this City. Mr. Bryant - I can't say that he has. Mrs. Katez - You can't say that he hasn't. Mr. Bryant - The radio log will show when he goes la-54. Mrs. Katez - If Mrs. Leclair kept the radio log correctly, it will prove that he did. It will also prove that he answered your memos up to the time that you told him that if he did not complete a project, then report to you that you did not require a report unless the project was not finished. Mr. Bryant - I have already stated that I asked for a report on the occasions when these things did not occur. Councilman Sikes - Mr. Katez, why did Mr. Bryant not get copies of these memorandas to begin with rather than make them and leave them lying on your desk, I mean the ones from you. Why did you make several copies and not give him one. Chief - He got a copy of every memoranda that I had. Mr. Bryant - I maintain that these are the memorandas that were brought to me and I maintain that there are several copies of the same memorandum in that bunch right there. -17- -- ..." Chief - I can answer that, Mr. Sikes on this xerox machine there is a dial for the number of copies, and at times I forgot to check the dial and instead of getting one copy I got several, and I imagine that the girls in the City Hall have done the same thing many times, is that right Mrs. Blackwell? City Clerk - Yes sir. #6,#7, and #8 - The items were read in full by Mayor Severance. 15 min. Councilman Sikes - Mr. Katez did you establish a vehicle inspection program? Chief - I have what you call a discrepancy sheet, at Mr. Bryant's request, he and I thought it out and I brought a copy to Mr. Bryant and he said put it into effect, and I did, I have them here now. Councilman Sikes - Do the patrolmen have the cars checked before they take them out? Chief - The officer who drives that vehicle inspects it and if there are any discrepancies he leaves a note and it is taken care of the next morning at the City garage. Mayor - It states in the paragraph that the program was initially started however no discrepancies have been posted in the last four months which has led to a passive approach in correcting any discrepancies on vehicles and equipment. Will you give me an answer to this please. Chief - I have a discrepancy sheet for all City yard vehicles, Water Department, Sewer Depatment and the City yard. I have very few discrepancies and they have Mr. Martine's name on most of them and they have been corrected and the sheet is in my office. 20 min. Mayor - This means that it was taken care of immediately? Chief - Yes. The sheets are in my office and I will be glad to show them to you. Mayor - If the vehicle is not repaired in a particular time, depending on the seriousness of it, it would be put out of service until it is maintained. Chief - I might bring out the fact that it took me 15 days to get a tire for the Water Depa~tment truck because it took Mr. Bryant 15 days to issue an order to buy a tire. Mr. Bryant - When a request for a purchase order is filled out and the reason for the purchase is stated it doesn't take any 15 days to decide whether I am going to sign it or not, most particularly if it is pertaining to a safety element. Chief - I hate to put the City employees in the middle, but the superintendent of the Water Department can veri~y this, and I wrote Mr. Bryant several memos on this tire. Mr. Woods - Mr. Martine is there vehicle inspection made on a daily bases? Mr. Martine - Yes, every day, the drivers come in at nights and make a report, we get the reports and fix them. 25 min. Mr. Woods - Mr. Martine, while you are up here, there has been some complaint also that Mr. Katez has failed to initiate a per- sonnel safety program. Did you, in fact, attend a safety program that was conducted by Florida Department of Commerce at New Smyrna Beach? -18- '-" ...." Mr. Woods read a memorandum from the Chief of Police to the City Manager in regard to the men who attended this program. Mr. Woods - Mr. Martine you did attend this program? Mr. Martine - Yes Mr. Woods - In your own department did you stress safety? Mr. Martine - Yes, we instruct the men to wear their safety jackets, to use their flags when they are mowing. Tape 3 Side B Mr. Woods How many employees do you have in the Street Department? Mr. Martine - Right now we have about 16. Mr. Woods - Have you received safety posters from George Katez to be posted in your department, and have they been posted? Mr. Martine - Yes. Mr. Woods - There is another charge here about workmens compo How many employees have you had out over the past year on workmens compensation claims, that were serious, that is an accident which requires time off. Mr. Martine - About ten. Mr. Woods - What was the serious accident? Mr. Martine - Some of them had poison ivey, one of them had driven a fork in his hand. Mr. Woods - Werent there quite a few cases of the poison this past year? Mr. Martine - I had quite a few men with that. Mr. Woods - I am trying to pinpoint if you had any real serious workmens compensation claims. Mr. Martine - You got me there. Mr. Woods - I would like to read a letter from Mr. A. J. Wells, Insurance Company North America, the letter is from Mr. Bryant dated October 31, 1974, thanking Mr. Wells for his assistance in inspection our City operation and his recommendations. By this letter I am instructing Mr. Martine to implement the inspec- tion report to be made on a daily bases and on each vehicle. The letter also stated that Chief Katez had been appointed Safety Director. Mr. Woods stated that he personally came down and in- spected the workmen compensation file and I failed to find any serious claims, there were accidents of which George Katez had no control over, such as poison ivey. I submit to the Council that again that you are trying to place a burden on Chief Katez to accomplish too much, and the City Manager has taken it upon himself to put such burden upon Mr. Katez that he could not possibly be done. Now the Chief is being used as a scapegoat for all of these charges against Mr. Katez and he cannot verify these charges. Mr. Bryant - The letter Mr. Woods read to Mr. Wells was dated October 21st. As a matter of fact I have another letter from the INA Company, dated June 18, 1975, which was written by Richard Watkins, he is a Safety Engineer. I would like to read this letter to you: "Thank you for meeting with me on June 10, 1975 to discuss to City of Edgewater's workmen compensation losses over the past five years. It gave us both a chance to see how severe the losses have become this year and what action might help revert the trend. I would make two suggestions and would like to be provided with information on several employees who have had several injuries. You can verify this information -19- W' "f/tIIIII from the list of losses on page 2. Rather than read the entire list.. Mr. Woods - I would like you to read the entire list. 5 min. Mr. Bryant - This goes over the last five years. It is making a comparison of the cost of the claims to see how severe the losses have become this year. Mr. Bryant read the entire list which was attached to the letter. Mr. Bryant - Still reading "The purpose is to get these people to work in a safe manner to reduce injuries and costs. I will meet again with you in October to see'-how your training is going. I am mailing you some Safety Posters to use in your program." I maintain that going back to the first paragraph of his letter that he was concerned about the severe losses this past year. Mr. Woods - There seems to be one very serious claim here and it is a reserve which is set up on Cal Dalrymple. The reserve is not based on the workmens compensation claim or any other claim it is a reserve set up by the insurance company as they are required to do. However, let's finish this letter. "The injuries of the City covering the period from 12-1970 to 5-5-75 shows a total of nine back injuries, improper lifting, which costs $8,097, this cost represents 22% of the total amount paid. Mr. Woods continued reading the letter. I submit to you that I don't think that there are very many qualified people in this room to show you how to lift something, and I don't think Chief Katez can stay on every vehicle while a man is stepping down from it to make sure he doesn't slip. Mr. Bryant - I submit that the training films made by INA could be shown to city employees and I also maintain that it is not a requirement of the Chief of Police of this City to following the Sanitation Department around to see how they are lifting; I simply stated that I wanted a safety program started and I might add that the reason for involving the Chief, if you will, the Chief came to me shortly after I came here asking to have his title changed if you will from Police Chief to Safety Director. My remark to him was that George if you show me that you can institute the safety program in order to become a Safety Director, I will then take it to the City Council for their consideration. Mr. Woods - I would like to have Mr. Bryant respond to number 8. Mr. Bryant - Read the charge in full in regard to vehicle use schedules. To me Mr. Woods that is self explanatory. Mr. Woods - Mr. Bryant it seems like a conclusion on your part as far as different driving habits of individuals. Chief - We did this, we assigned men to certain vehicles. We got away from assigning a man to a car because that would put two men 10 min. on the same shift driving the same automobile. You can ask any of the police officers if we didn't do that. With three police automobiles, it is almost impossible to put 8 or 9 men driving, you would have to have at least 7 automobiles. Mr. Bryant and I discussed,this, we tried and it did not work. Mayor - Did you institute a rotating bases to where every police vehicle in a week's time be on the road an equal amount or as close to an equal amount as possible? Chief - I did, all except my own car, because it is the oldest car we have. I would like to ask Officer Jones - Did I not have a plan that you people drove the same vehicle, you didn't have to drive only when a few men a few men were assigned to the same shift. Officer Jones - Yes sir. -20- ~ ...., Mayor - Did you in fact respond to the memorandum from the City Manager pertaining to rotating the vehicles in a memorandum form? Did you tell him verbally or in memo form? Chief - I told him in one of my memoranda to him Mayor - As I can see so far, Chief the problem in regards to each one of these charges, tells me that there is a lack of communica- tion back to the City Manager in memorandum form, and those that require monthly reports from you have not been carried out over the past few months. Councilman Cairnie - As I understood, Chief Katez was appointed Safety Officer is that correct? Mr. Bryant - Yes sir. Councilman Cairnie - Was that approved by the Council? Mr. Bryant - No sir, I don't believe it was. It was an appointment by myself with regard to the conversation that the Chief and I had regard to ultimately changing his title to Safety Director, if you 15 min. will, opposed to Chief of Police. Councilman Cairnie - He has been acting as Safety Director? Mr. Bryant - Yes sir. Councilman Cairnie - Mr. Martine, out at the garage, has a safety program been established by Mr. Katez at any time? Mr. Martine - When we inspect all of the vehicles, we turn the reports into him. Mayor - I think what Councilman Cairnie means is, has Chief Katez as Safety Director approached you and given you any assistance in setting up a safety program for your employees, such as classes, posters, etc.? Mr. Martine - He did. Chief - Mr. Bryant stated a while ago, that I came to him and asked to change my title, it is true, however what Mr. Bryant failed to say is that I said" If I am going to have to do all of this, Mr. Bryant, why aren't I a Safety Director." He said, well we will have it changed to Safety Director. Mr. Bryant did put these things on me to do, but I have never gone to the City yard in my uniform and climbed under a truck to check them, I figured Mr. Martine was more experienced in that job and he has done a good job because I have seen the reports on it. Mayor - I agree that your job as Safety Director will be strictly as administrative capacity. Councilman Sikes - Mr. Martine, do you get these cars on a regular bases or do you not get them until they break down and you have to fix them? Do you look at them and say everything is all right? Mr. Martine - We check the oil, deisel and lights all the time. When they break down, they come in and we fix them. Chief - The officer who drives the automobile inspects it, anything wrong with the horn, the lights, or the car is running bad, the car 20 min. is taken to the shop the next morning and it is fixed. Councilman Sikes - It seems like to me that the cars should be in- spected and ready to go when the patrolman checks into duty rather than him having to check over the car to see then if it is o.k. -21- .., ""'" Mr. Bryant - I would like to ask the Chief if the daily inspection forms have been made out every day on every car? Chief - I think so sir. Mr. Bryant - May I ask any of the officers if recently any of these forms have been made out on a regular bases? Officer Jones - Yes sir, I have. Mr. Bryant - Now, if this is so, the board that I had placed in your office and the board that I had placed in Mr. Martine's office has not had any discrepancies whatsoever in the last several months and I maintain that we have had an unusually amount of maintenance on all of our vehicles, most particularly those of the police depart- ment. 25 min. Mr. Woods - Read a letter dated Feb. 20, 1975 to all department heads from the Chief of Police. This spoke of discrepancies which were found and that they must be corrected so that a report can be sent off. Mr. Woods also read a letter dated March 4, 1974 to Industrial Safety Office in regard to the discrepancies. Mr. Woods read a letter to Mr. J.E. Tumblin, from Mr. Bryant stating that he has appointed Chief Katez as Safety Director and that by this letter he is re- questing that Mr. Katez appoint a safety committee in the effort of a safety program. Tape 4 Side A Mr. Jim Nichols - I was employed as a mechanic for this City. When the new police shift came on if there was any item of discrepancy it was repaired then if it was at all feasible. I have had patrolmen come by my house and I have repaired the cars on my own time. I am wondering why that since this was brought up that all depart- ment heads did not hold a meeting with the City Manager and dis- cuss this out and see if there was any way that they could schedule their employees to do this, if you are going to go to the Chief he has to go to each individual department head and it is a waste of time. Mr. Bryant - I maintain that since the Chief had been appointed, if you will, Safety Director, the Chief could have handled the matter and had this arranged. I maintain that I directed the Chief to establish a safety program, and I maintain that it has not successfully been carried forward. Mr. Gross - I wonder if the City Manager ever set down with all of these things that he asked the Chief to do and said there is just not enough hours in the day for the Chief. Did the City Manager think that the Chief could carry out these items? Mr. Bryant - Yes, for the most part these items could have been carried out right in his office by memoranda, if you will to the different department heads, making contact with organizations that provide safety films and coordinating those efforts with the depart- ment heads. #9. Mayor Severance read the charge in full. Tape 4 5 min. Mr. Bryant read from the 1974 audit report, comments and suggestions in regard to the handling of the bonds and bond money. Mr. Woods - The answer we have for this was that it was done, it just was not posted, and I guess he means by posting he means putting it on the board. -22- -- .""" Chief - Each officer knew the bond as I mentioned in my memorandum to Mr. Bryant, the bond is on the ticket, and that I did not put it on the bulletin board. Mr. Bryant - I would like to ask any of the police officers if in fact they ever saw the list of bonds developed by the Chief. Officer Westfall - I saw a white slip which has the list of bonds. I saw it on the Chief's desk. Mr. Bryant - I would like to ask Mr. Kelley if he has ever seen this information? Officer Kelley - No Officer Rickelman - No Officer Jones - No Officer Tillo~son - No Lt. McCall - No Chief - I readily admit that I did not post the bonds, I did make one up, the bonds were on the tickets. Mayor - Are you stating that the same list that you have is also on the tickets? Chief - Yes. Mr. Woods - The police officers are well aware of the minimum and maximum fines on the traffic violations. Mayor - However, Mr. Woods I think that it was very important that also they be supplied with written information for their brief cases or what have you so that they can readily be acceptable to anyone. I realize that this is in the statutes book, however if a patrolman is out in the field it would be a lot easier if he had a piece of paper handy., rather than having to call in and have a dispatcher look it up in the Florida Statutes. Chief - The traffic fines are on that ticket. City Attorney Weaver - There was some statement made that the schedule of bonds is on the ticket, there is a number of citations listed on the ticket, the bond is written on the ticket by the officer. Mayor Severance - The amount of the bond is written on the ticket, however we don't have any information on the ticket as to what the amount of that bond is, am I following you correctly? City Attorney Weaver - That is correct. Mr. Woods - May we ask any of the officers are they not familar themselves with the bond structures for the City Ordinances, you do know what the bond is set at to memory? 10 min. Lt. Mc Call - Yes sir. Mr. Bryant - I submit that whether everyone of the officers know them by heart is not what the auditors requested. The auditors requested that they be posted. #10 Mayor Severance read the charge in full. Mr. Bryant - I think the charge, if you will, and the memorandum speak directly and very specifically to the instance of the viola- tion and the fact that I did bring it to the Chief's attention and asked him to take care of it and it has not been taken care of, and furthermore I think the City Attorney will verify this because -23- "r .., questions concerning this subject came up in Council meeting and he came into my office not more than ten days ago asking why Pappy was still displaying goods outside the building. Chief - I did go down and took with me a copy of the ordinance. I showed it to Pappy and he took his things in at that time. I received a memo from the Zoning Board to the City Council, which I acted on. Mr. Woods - Read the memorandum, stating that they were giving Pappy permission to display his articles outside of his building on the ledge. He also read a copy of the minutes at which it was stated that the Ordinance would be amended to allow this. City Attorney Weaver - We also agreed in that meeting that the ordinance would be enforced until such time that the amendment was made. 15 min. Mayor - Irregardless to what the Zoning Board, they do not have the authority to allow anyone to continue in violation of the ordinance. The Chief of Police takes his orders from the City Manager and the City Council, not the Zoning Board. Chief - We did discuss this and I was told that he had to remove his things. Pappy is here. He can verify that he did talk to various councilmen. Mr. Bryant and I did discuss this and he did not tell me to remove the things, until we wait and see what the Council is going to do. Mayor - In other words what you are saying, Chief, is that Mr. Bryant instructed you not to have Pappy remove his merchandise from outside his business. Chief - effect of to do and ledge and I can't remember his exact Cool it until we see what it was brought up that as not on the sidewalk. words, but something to the the City Council is going long as he had it on that Mr. Bryant - I don't recall giving such instructions because I made it very plain in my memorandum that in fact it was a violation of the ordinance to display these items in this particular zoning. It did come to the City Council, and the Council said that in fact the ordinance would be enforced and as late as Monday the violation still existed. Chief - If this is still in violation, why hasn't it been taken care of? Mayor - The question is Chief, what action did you take when you were confronted with the situation to begin with? Chief - I asked him to remove his stuff. Then it came back and this is when I had the conversation with the City Manager on the recommendation of the Zoning Board. Councilman Sikes - When we discussed this I brought out the question about A-I Rental and although their merchandise being displayed out- side is a violation of the ordinance, however it is on their own property, and the Attorney came back with that it was in violation Bnd it would have to be enforced. Mrs. Leo Turner - My husband and I both attended the meetings at which this was discussed and my understanding was that although A-I Rental was in violation and also Pappys was in violation. As 20 min. long as he kept his merchandise on his own property he would be permitted to display it outdoors. And I also understood that A-I Rental was not goi~g to be bothered until you got this straightened out. I at no time heard anyone instruct the Police Chief to arrest anyone. -24- 'w' -...I Mayor - It was discussed and it was said that it was still a violation of the ordinance and that action should be taken according to the ordinance. Mr~. Turner But didn't you say that he would be permitted to display on his own property? Mayor - If the amendment went through, it would allow this area to display outside of their businesses with a permit. Mr. John Gross - Was the Chief of Police authorized by the 25 min. City Manager to enforce this law, or was the law interpretted by the proper authority and then the Chief authorized to enforce? Mayor - The law is interpretted when it is written,and it is the Chief of Police's duty to enforce the ordinances. 'rape 4 Side B Mr. Barnett (Pappy) - A police officer came and made me move my things inside for two weeks. My business dropped. I saw the City Manager, and I went to the Zoning Board, and they told me that I could put my things back out. Mr. Katez came over and asked me why I moved my things back out. I explained to him that I got permission from the Zoning Board to put them back out. Mayor - You are saying that the Chief came over and told you to remove you things one time, then you went before the Zoning Board and they gave you permission to put the stuff back out. The Chief returned again and told you that you must take it back in, and you stated to him that the Zoning Board gave you approval to put it back out. Pappy - That is right. Mr. Woods - Read the memorandum from the City Manager to the City Manager Mayor - I would say that the duties were carried out prop~rly however the Zoning Board interceded without the proper authority to do so. #11. Mayor Severance read the charge in full. Mr. Bryant - The reason that I put this in there, if in fact, if Chief Katez had responded to my first memorandum and had he got the occupational licenses, it would not have at a later date become conflicting~ if you would, on his schedule to get other items done, which he was directed to do, in which he had been given additional time, if you will, to accomplish the tasks. Chief - Read the first memorandum from the City Manager, and he stated that he did misinterpretation. I did go to the City Clerk's office and ask for a list of the occupational licenses of the City. She supplied me with that list and they were all there. I assumed that this is what he wanted., and then later in another memorandum he spelled it out that I will make a check by going to each business, and then I did this. 5 min. City Manager - My first memorandum, in the last paragraph indicated please inform me by exception any problems you might encounter. If all I wanted was for someone to check the list of occupational licenses in City Hall, I certainly could have deligated this to the City Clerk and she in turn could have deligated it to a clerk that in fact takes the occupational licenses. I don't see any problem in interpretting what my instructions were, most particularly the last paragraph in the memorandum. -25- 'w' w Councilmand Sikes - Mr. Bryant after the second memorandum was given did you find any discrepancies or any violations where they did not have their licenses? Mr. Bryant - Only where they were not purchased properly, and I think that the Chief took care of that. Mr. Walter Gross - Why didn't the City Manager go to the City Clerk and get the list of these people and turn it over to the Chief instead of telling him to get the list. Mr. Bryant - We all work there in the same building and it is not that difficult for theChief to walk over and request the list. Mr. Gross - Why didn't you do it? Mr. Bryant - Because I instructed the Chief to do it. Mr. Woods - Mr. Bryant why did you feel that it was necessary to have someone go around and check the licenses, isn't it more im- portant to make sure that the businesses had purchased the licenses from the City. Mr. Bryant - I had a method to my madness, Mr. Woods. I felt if I had the Chief out there checking, at least he was out patrolling. Mayor Severance had to call order to the meeting,and remind the public that he will have the hall cleared if there are anymore outbursts. Mayor - Mr. Woods, to answer your question, it is important to see that the businesses had purchased an occupational license, however it is also required by State Law that you will post the license in an appropriate manner and place. This was my objective for having the Chief check this out. City Attorney - You can not check the licenses in the City Hall, you can only check the licenses that should be renewed. Councilman Sikes - Another thing too, the purpose of checking the licenses is to see that they have the proper licenses. Mr. Bryant - Mayor, did not we discuss also the fact that could be done while the Chief was on patrol? Mayor - That is correct. I think the Chief was aware of that also, that this was while he was out on the road, he would stop in. Chief - Is it true that you, Mayor, rode with me one night while I was patrolling and I stopped in the drive-in then because it was only open at night? Mayor - That is correct. The point is for having the licenses checked was to determine whether or not the proper licenses was being purchased and that they were posted properly? #12. Mayor Severance read the charge in full. Mr. Bryant - I had two points that I would like to speak to on this. The first being that my memorandum of April 7 directed the Chief to do certain things, such as the break-even bases and that hot chocolate and soup be provided for non-coffee drinkers, if you will. Instead of getting this done, I got a long memorandum returned to me, giving me a choice, if you will, again rather than instituting what I had directed him to do. The directions given was not again, for the Chief himself to take care of the service, he had department personnel around the clock and since it was primarily set up for their department I felt that they should be the ones to maintain the service. The second point, the reason for making coffee available, if you will, and the soup, hot choco- late or whatever else was because of a, what I considered at the time, a serious morale problem within the Police Department. This - 2 :(5- -- '" ~ can be verified through minutes of ' past meetings. Meetings have been held with the department personnel and it was an attempt, if you will to let the Police Department know that the management, the management being the Chief and myself, were concerned about their well being and we were trying to do something in the area 15 min. to provide what I considered to be a morale booster. Chief - In regard to this service being most~y for the Police Department, I might ask some of the officers and dispatchers how many of them drink coffee? Mrs. Garvey brings her own, Miss Davis brings her own, Mr. Kelley is not a coffee drinker Mr. Jones doesn't drink coffee, Lt. Mc Call doesn't drink coffee and I am the only one who drinks coffee in that department. What brings this up is the dirty coffee cups that someone has put back in the tray on the table, and Mr. Bryant said something to me about it, and I said Mr. Bryant if you want them washed, you wash them yourself, and this teed him off and from then on this coffee thing snowballed. I don't think the Chief should have to worry about washing coffee cups for anyone who walks into City Hall. Mr. Bryant - I maintain that there are other folks who drink coffee in the Police Department. Around Christmas time the Police Department received $100.00 donation. We didn't quite know how to handle the money, and I suggested that this be placed in a coffee fund, if you will, now from the 1st of January, that $100.00 had been depleted in addition to what money had been collected on the honor system, if you will, in four months time and if the Chief drinks coffee at that rate, either he drinks a lot of coffee or more people availe themselves of the service other than what he says. Chief - If Mr. Bryant is insinuating that I drink all of the coffee, I said that I am the only one in the Police Department that drank coffee. I couldn't stay there 24 hours a day to see that people put the money there. I had coffee available in the Police Department before Mr. Bryant ever thought to come to Edgewater. We had people who would donate to the coffee some- times and if it wasn't there, I bought it. 20 min. The Chief asked all the officers present if they drink coffee all but one said No. Mr. Woods - Mr. Bryant himself stated in the memorandum that he really doesn't care if the present dollar system is maintained or not. Councilman Dietz - This is irrelevant to the whole matter. Mayor Severance - There will be no questions on this matter. #13, #14 Mayor Severance read the charge in full. Mr. Bryant - In an attempt to clear some of the clutter out of our small spaces there, I did make arrangements in the west bay of the old fire station. As you and other members of the Council are aware we were trying to clean up the back room to establish an employees lounge, if you would, so that they could get away from their desks to eat lunch. In connection with this, I had the big cabinet moved to the old fire station, placed the rod between the studs so that the bicycles that were picked up could be secured and that the smaller items would in fact be stored in the cabinet which has a lock. The simple fact is that I instructed the Chief and I had a reason for it, and it has not been done. -27- .... ..."", Tape 4 Side B 25 min. Chief - When we first talked about this, was it not the bicycles that you were referring to, Mr. Bryant? Mr. Bryant - Any court evidence that had to be locked up is exactly what I had in mind. Chief - In other words, Mr. Bryant, I am suppose to put marjuana which I am holding for evidence out there where that door is open every day with kids playing in there? Mr. Bryant - I am talking about fans and T.V.s and things of that nature, and the newspaper stands that we particularly talked about are not being stored there. Chief - Where are those newspaper stands, Mr. Bryant? Mr. Bryant - They were sitting out in front of the City Hall for I don't know how many months. Chief - Six months ago. Mr. Bryant - No sir, since May they were sitting out in front of City Hall. Chief - The T.V.s and fans, you expect where that door is open all the time? dispatchers, has anyone instructed you without signing the book? me to put those over there I would like to ask the not to give anyone the key Miss Davis - They have to sign the Book. Chief - Can anyone come over there and sign any name and get the key to the fire house? Miss Davis - Yes. Tape 5 Side A Mr. Bryant - If that is his answer, I maintain that there is a lock on the cabinet and I still maintain that the Police Depart- ment has the key. If there is anything too large to fit in the cabinet and can not be secured by cable or chain or whatever, that could be an exception, but I further maintain that there are items in the Police Department that can be kept in the old fire station. Mr. Woods - In order to produce evidence in court you must show the proper means for handling the evidence. I submit that the fire house where the evidence is stored is accessable at all times there would be objection in court by a good defense attorney to knock that evidence right out. Mr. Weaver - I agree whole heartily. Everyone walks in City Hall Not everyone walks through cabinets that are locked. Mr. Bryant - I am aware of how the court evidence should be se- cured and I am also submitting that prior to establishing these arrangements, which added more security, if you would, than was used prior to that procedure, which was simply throwing it in the back room of the City Hall, which everybody had access to coming in to use the water fountain, or the coke machine, they could open the back door and walk off with a whole bunch of it. Chief - That was bicycles only. Am I right Lt. Mc Call? Lt. Me Call - Yes. Mrs. Katez - I would like to ask how police evidence could be placed in the fire station, when I came to the meeting Monday night at 6:55 P.M. both doors were open and two little boys were playing in there? And I would like to ask how you are going to be assured it is safe when one of the firemen almost -28- -- ~ ...." I threw one of these boxes out because they didn't know what they were? And the fireman is in the back and he can verify that. Mayor - Very valid question. myself. I do not have an answer for you Mr. Bryant - Like I said before, I have memoranda to show that arrangements were made with Chief Blackwell to utilize the area that was described in my memorandum and it was read for the storage for items. The cabinet, if you will, must be seven feet tall and about 2 1/2 feet deep and weighs about 250 pounds and I don't think that anyone is going to walk off with it. And in fact, if the Chief feels that that cabinet needs to be secured to the wall, he should have made arrangements to see to it that it was secured. Chief - Mr. Bryant, the lock on that cabinet would not keep anyone out who wanted to open it, if people in Florida Shores have homes out there broken into every so often. Mr. Bryant - As a matter of fact we talked about placing a security bar across those doors and I indicated to you to make arrangements with Mr. Martine's crew to have someone come over and place a bar completely around the cabinet. I maintain that these are excuses and not reasons to follow up my memorandum. # 14. Mayor Severance read the charge in full. At this time Mayor Severance left the chair, leaving Councilman Lodico acting as Mayor. Mr. Bryant - I submit that as indicated, I was directed by the Council to take action on these two areas, my memorandum speaks for itself. Like I indicated the only information I have re- ceived were some pictures that were takenof the locations and to my knowledge nothing else was done since I don't see any resulting action from the memorandum I issued. Mr. Woods - Mr. Weaver, who is the responsible person to make sure that all of the mechanical, electrical, plumbing codes of the Southern Standard Building Code are conformed with by the City? Mr. Weaver - The City Council is responsible. Mr. Woods - I would like to read Sec. 6-17 stating that the Building Inspection Department of Volusia County, Florida is the official inspection agency for the City of Edgewater, Florida on all building plumbing, electrical and mechanical work done in the City of Edge- water, and to enforce all of these ordinances. Mr. Weaver - The responsible party will remain the City Council. All charges and violations shall remain the priority of the City of Edgewater. Chief - First of all I don't know a thing about a building.Mr. Bryant gave me a memo on Pine Bluff, and I contacted Mr. Knock 10 min. and Mr. Knock has talked with Mr. Bryant about this. He gave me another memo on a house on Boston Road, and again I talked with Mr. Knock. I told Mr. Bryant that I took care of everything down there as far as I can go, and he said Mr. Knock mentioned it to me. So I don't see why I have to report to this man my memo, when he has already got the answer. Councilman Lodico - It is on the memo here, that he suggested that you coordinate with Mr. Knock, Mr. Crites and Mr. Blackwell. Did you only get ahold of Mr. Knock, or did you get ahold of all of them? -29- .......- ""' ~ ~ \ Chief - I got ahold of Mr. Knock and I have talked to Mr. Blackwell and this was way back on these other things, I got ahold of Mr. Walls because he was Chief, and it was hard to do because Mr. Walls was always in school. Mr. Walls - I don't know when Mr. Bryant's memorandum came out, but when I was the fire chief, Chief Katez approached me and the County Health Inspector and Mr. Knock to get us to go and look at these places that looked like they might be condemnable. The Chief worked and worked; the problem was getting these four people together, and I know this because I was the fire chief. Mr. Bryant - I submit that when I ask people, if you will, as I indicated in my memorandum, to carry something through, I mean for them to carry it through to the finality, not to come back and dump it in my lap and say I have taken it as far as I can. The fact is that if I wanted to do it myself, I would not have directed the Chief to coordinate this activity, I would have done it myself. It is fact that I asked the Chief to do it and I expect that when I ask people to do something that they follow through to the conclusion. Chief - Did Mr. Knock contact you on this place on Palmetto? Mr. Bryant - He said that he had been by and looked at it, that is about the only report I got. Chief - Mr. Knock told me that he had discussed this with you. Mr. Bryant - I submit that someone has to take the initiative to see to it that these things get taken care of and as a subordinate to me, if you will, as directed by the City Council, I asked the Chief to look into it because I felt that it could be a possible 15 min. violation of an ordinance. Mr. Woods - lie did look into it, aren't you familiar with the City ordinances, what about the City Attorney? Mr. Bryant - I maintain that that is beside the point, I asked the Chief to take care of it and bring it to some type of conclusion and it simply wasn't done and the building is still there. Councilman Dietz - Won't this come under the category of a public nuisance, and not a building inspection. We can't ask the building inspector to take care of that? Mr. Woods - The ordinance specifically calls for it. Councilman Dietz - Do you mean before we can condemn a building we have to get the building inspector? City Attorney Weaver - The City of Edgewater uses the County Building Inspection Department, anything that has to be done to the City buildings, the Chief should gather the information for the City to enforce, and actually the enforcement is up to the City. Councilman Lodico - I don't understand, the City Council has instructed a directive to the City Manager to have them checked, he had to do it, because we instruct and he has to carry it out and not bring it right back to us. Mr. Woods - I think thatthere must be some misinterpretation, I would submit that they go over Section 6-17 and lets determine who is actually the responsible party for taking care of a nuisance in this City. City Attorney - I can tell you who is exactly the responsible party, that is the City Council of the City of Edgewater. -30- ...., ~ John Gross - Why is this a duty for a police officer, as is the coffee dispenser, building inspector, carpenter. Councilman Lodico - Mr. Gross, when you go to your place of business and you instruct someone to do something, he'd better do it or you will fire them, believe me you will, and even if they do it you might fire them. 20 min. Mr. Gross - I don't tell the salesman to go over to the typewriter, I don't tell the typist to go out and sell. I delegate the duties where they belong. At this time, Councilman Lodico turned to gavel back over to Mayor Severance. Mayor Severance - I am sorry there can be no more questions on this matter, because once the man leaves the chair, that subject is closed. When we get to the miscellaneous section I will recognize the question. #15. Mayor Severance read the charge in full. Mr. Bryant - We had a request from the Court Clerk and some officers regarding a lack of proper and comple~record system. Accordingly, I asked the Chief to coordinate with another City if you will, about a satisfactory record system. We made arrange- ments I believe with the City of South Daytona Beach in order to to by and review these records and as I indicated in my statement here that because the Court Clerk was sick the day before they were scheduled to go, the arrangements to go were canceled and there have been to my knowledge no other arrangements made to try and keep up our records system, if you will. 25 min. Chief - As Mr. Bryant stated a while ago, all we are giving is excuses. This is another excuse: I made arrangements for Officer Rickelman and Mrs. Leclair to go up and talk to the Chief of Police in South Daytona to review the record keeping. Mrs. Leclair was sick the day before we were to go, and I notified the Chief that we would be unable to come up. I would have to pay Officer Rickelman 8 to 10 hours overtime. I tried to get this worked out and I found out that I would need about $800.00 for what I needed and according to the budget, I didn't do it. Tape 5 Side B Mrs. Katez - Mayor, Mrs. Leclair is the Court Clerk and also secretary for the Police Department, and she has been in that position a number of years? The City of Edgewater pays her salary and she has been here all this time and she doesn't know how to file, is that what you are talking about? Mayor - No mam, the filing system that we currently operate under I believe there was some discussion about the auditors statipg that we should file things in a certain manner and have a certain type of system so that items can be drawn out and copied in an orderly manner. The indication was that we should go to one of these other communities that does have a filing system that is compatible and agreeable with the auditors and that we could pick up a few things from them to set up a more efficient filing system in our Police Department. Mrs. Katez - As I understand it at the last Council meeting, the complaint was coming up about the over time pay, and the Chief has made an effort to get these people to these places, which he has, and the problem is how is he going to work it out during their working hours. Which way is he going to go? Mayor - Read from the item again to explain what exactly the Chief was asked to do. If I were the Chief and I got a memo to this effect, I would go ahead and do it by whatever means possible, even though it caused overtime. -31- ~ ~ ~ Mrs. Katez - You personally as aCouncilman do not give him the authority to do so, Mr. Bryant does. Also, Mr. Bryant gives him daily activities to do which have covered entirely every hour and minute of the day. Also on that point, again, Mr. Bryant mentioned that when he gives the department heads the memos to do these things, he expects an answer from them. How many other department heads have received this number of memos from Mr. Bryant? Mayor - I don't know? Mr. Bryant - Yes mam. I give directions a great deal of the time to Mr. Martine. Mrs. Katez Does he write you a memo in return? Mr. Bryant No mam, because the work is accomplished. Mrs. Katez Well, Mr. Katez is accomplished but you are saying that you did not get a written memo from him that he is accom- plishing this work. Mr. Bryant - I maintain that it has not been accomplished. Mrs. Katez - Well, what you maintain, is your personal opinion. Mr. Coles - Do the auditors change yearly, and each year they say no, you should do it this way. Mayor - The reason for that is that the auditors go by the State Auditors instruction as to what is required in municipalities. Chief - I can't remember any suggestions of the auditors about the filing system in the Police Department. I might go further, Officer Page got me a list from Holly Hill on their filing system, is that right Officer Page? Officer Page - that is right. Chief - That was what I was waiting on, rather than take two people 8 to 10 hours to go up to South Daytona, Mr. Page offered to get this list because he lives in that area. 5 min. Mayor - In regards to the auditors, there was a statement in the 1973-74 pertaining to the docket book, the method used, the filing of the cards on the cases and so forth. Chief - I didn't say it wasn't, I said I can't remember it. #16. Mayor Severance read the charge in full. Mr. Bryant - I indicated the number of hours of overtime required or that has been used to date, the amount which the City has paid. I have information concerning the number of sick days taken by the Police Department. From October to August 77 1/2 days of sick leave was taken by the Police Department,which because of its very nature, it requires 24 hour surveillance, seven days a week and if we try to maintain a two man police force all three shifts each day, it does require that other officers on off duty status should be brought in and paid over time. I might submit that when the officer takes sick leave he is being paid regular time and then when we bring a man in who has already worked 40 hours we are obli- gated to pay him one and a half time, so this has cost us at the rate of 2 1/2 times, if you will. Chief - I don't know how to answer the question on that, because when the men take off sick, I am no doctor. Mr. Bryant has made remarks to me that men were abusing the sick leave, and I had to -32- ~ ~ do something about it, and I don't know what to do about it. I have tried to check on them, and I have checked on them through the men and found out that they were sick. Now, I was accused one time of getting others to spy on the other men. I have worked one man on a shift, it is just on the week ends or when the traf- fic was heavy that we worked overtime. Mayor - I think it is a very difficult task to cover on overtime for an individual who is on the 3 to 11 or 11 to 7 shift, to ob- tain coverage without calling a man in, however I think Mr. Bryant is specifically aiming at is the fact that the Chief has utilized calling men in on over time to patrol for the day shift when he himself could be out patrolling. Mr. Bryant is thatthe intent of this charge? Mr. Bryant - Yes it is. Chief - Could the City Manager tell me how many days I have not worked on the day shift? 10 min. Mr. Bryant - No sir, I don't have the records available. I have available that there has been a total of 77 1/2 days sick leave taken, 1105.75 hours of over time utilized and the amount of $6,342.56. Chief - He is trying to say that I caused the overtime because I didn't want to go on patrol, and I have done it by myself, I had to call an officer in a couple of weeks ago because I had to take Court. Donna Johnson - I would like to ask the City Manager if he knows of any businesses that work on shifts who have someone out if the manager will pull that shift rather than call someone in. Mr. Bryant - I can't answer that question because I haven't talked to any manager's of any stores. Relative to the subject all I did was make a statement, that in my opinion there was an excess in the amount of sick leave utilized. Councilman Dietz - The management in the hospitals work when some- one is<out on sick leave. Mr. Nichols - Are these men allowed this sick leave time? Mayor - They are allowed a certain amount of days a year. Mr. Nichols - If they are out so many days, they send someone out to check on them to make sure they are sick, is that right? Mayor - Severance - No, a statement from the doctor's office is sufficient. Mr. Nichols - lias this been done? Chief - They have to be out three days. Mr. Nichols - Does anybody in the Water, Street, or Sewer Departments head of departments take over somebody's job and work overtime when he is out sick? 15 min. Mayor - We have had an occasion when a department head has had to work over time when an employee is out sick in the Water DepartmBnt. Mr. Bryant - I might add that from October 1, 1974 - August 1975, there were 0 hours of sick leave taken by members of the Water Department. Mrs. Woodard - Mr. Bryant, are you accusing the Chief because his men are sick that it is his fault? Mr. Bryant - No -33- '-" ..."", Mrs. Woodard - Mr. Bryant, have you ever been sick? Mr. Bryant - Yes Mrs. Woodard - How long have you been with our City? Mr. Bryant - One year and 2 days. Mrs. Woodard - How many days have we paid you for a sick leave? You don't get sick leave, because you are on a salary, right, may I ask how many days you have been off? Mr. Bryant - Two days Mrs. Woodard - Didn't you take a vacation and go somewhere one time? Mr. Bryant - No mam. Mrs. Woodard - Each one of these men are allowed twenty days of sick leave a year, that is 115 days, right? They have taken 77 1/2 days, right, I think that is a good percentage for a year. Mr. Bryant - With respect to the other departments, I don't feel that it is. Mrs. Woodard - We can not compare other departments with one department Mr. Bryant - From a management standpoint that is the way I have to do it. Mrs. Woodard - From a management standpoint, from what I am seeing here, you have done a lot of comparing. Mr. Turner - Do you have some line of organization drawn, and who is ahead of it? Mayor Severance - The City Council is the top dog, if you will, the City Manager is number two, number 3 in categories as 3A,B,C is the department heads. The City Charter explains this. Mr. Turner - I don't see how the Chief can be blamed, he can't help when someone is sick. Mayor - That is not the point, it is not the Chief's fault that the men are sick, the point is that it is the Chief's responsibility to look into the excessive, if you will, sick leave and to determine on his own as department where the problem is, if such a problem exists. #17. Mayor Severance read the charge in full. 20 min. Mr. Bryant - I had a list of several violations and I maintain again that the ordinance is not being enforced, obviously it was either a lack of enforcement by members of the Police Department or lack of correction by the Chief to see that this ordinance was enforced. Chief - The only thing I can say is that I have instructed the men in my department to observe any junked vehicles or vehicles with no tag, and I think that they have been on it, whether they have been on it as much as the City Manager thinks they should be, I don't know. We have had reports on junked automobiles and we have had them removed. -34- ~ ..""", Mr. Bryant - I would like to ask Officer Rickelman a question. Have you had any specific orders from Chief Katez to make any efforts to enforce this particular ordinance to any degree at all? Officer Rickelman - Yes sir. Mr. Bryant - May I ask what were the instructions and what seems to be the problem in the enforcing thereof? Officer Rickelman - I can't remember exactly what started it, but I have an idea. There seemed to be a conflict with another ordinance about the size of the vehicles, a large truck was parked in the City limits and it seemed like at that time there was a problem, people were getting special permits, so we were at the point that we had to sit back until someone got something straight. Mr. Bryant - So you claim that because of a misinterpretation, if you will, or a conflict with another ordinance, or whatever, you as a police officer felt like you were being placed in the middle? Officer Rickelman - Yes sir, so to speak. 25 min. Chief - Officer Rickelman, I don't think Mr. Bryant clarified himself on that, did you say you were put in the middle by me or by the City Council? Officer Rickelman - I would have to say the City Council. Mayor - I will have to concur with that, it was the City Council who put the police department in the middle in that particular situation. There was discussion in regard to amending the ordinance pertaining to commercial vehicles and unlicensed vehicles and the officers were instructed to carry out both of these items, yet the Council never really did make any commitment as to whether they were going to leave the ordinances as is or whether we were going to amend them to allow different types of variation in the ordinance. There was a lot of discussion about permits being issued also. Tape 6 Side A Mr. Woods - I wonder if Mr. Bryant could be be specific about the violations that presently exist. Mr. Bryant - 2014 West Park Avenue Mr. Woods - Who reported this? Mr. Bryant - I did, I saw it myself. Mr. Woods - Did you tell the police about it? Mr. Bryant _ I just went around and got these, while driving around the City, I was trying to see whether the ordinance was being enforced. 114 West Park Avenue, Old County Road, 400 Flagler, 1900 block in Travelers Palm, 3211, Needle Palm, 602 Flagler Avenue, 821 Flagler Avenue, 1820 Needle Palm, 1703 High Street, Hotel Street, one on Juniper. Mr. Woods - These are all cars who did not have current tags, is that correct? Mr. Bryant answered Yes. Mayor - Chief, did not the City Council instruct you in a couple of meetings of vehicles that were in this category of vehicles that were in this category for you to check them out? One of them being over on Hubble Street, a hunting vehicle that was not licensed, and another one, which you yourself went out and observed and you issued him a citation for driving with invalid license plates,? -35- - ""'f'"~ "r" ..." . Chief That is correct. Mayor - My point is that the Council did direct you on a couple of occasions? Chief - Yes,and back on this hunting vehicle, there seemed to be a big hassle, this is what kept the police department in the middle. I might direct Mr. Bryant a question on these .. Do they have a tag on them? Mr. Bryant - Some of them do. Chief - What year? Mr. Bryant - I didn't get that, all I can tell you is that they were not current. Chief - If you don't know what year, how do you know they are not current tags? Mr. Bryant - I can tell you that it is not a 1975 with the little sticker. Chief - There are a lot of people who have automobiles who have not been able to afford the tags, and I don't believe I have the right to take the car away if a man is waiting another week so he can buy a tag. If these cars don't have the little stickers, then I don't see how my police officers could have missed them. Mrs. Katez - The question about carrying out of ordinances - at the meeting on Monday, October 13, 1974, Mr. Dietz, himself and there is a tape made of it, made the remark that the City Ordinances were in such a mess that you could not tell heads or tails from them, and he did not know what the prior Council had done that had made such a mess out of these ordinances. If even a councilman doesn't understand the ordinances, how do you expect the men to understand them? Mayor - That is Mr. Dietz's opinion. Councilman Dietz - That is absolutely right, but what we are in question here now is a direct order given by the Council to the Chief of Police, by the City manager that weren't carried out. Mrs. Katez - It is only the City Manager's opinion that they were not carried out. Mayor - The two items that I mentioned, were in fact carried out. Councilman Dietz - When he is referred to a specific ordinance and it is explained to him, then there is no question, that is a direct order, and anything other than carrying out that direct order is insubordination. Mrs. Katez - Until somebody else comes behind him and gives him another order to counter act that one. Councilman Dietz - Did anybody do that? Mrs. Katez - Mr. Bryant does it constantly. #18. Mayor Severance read the charge in full. Mr. Bryant - We called a meetin8 in my office on June 11, 1975, and this was brought up, that one of the problems they have is ~hat they did not have a current set of ordinances which they needed pertaining to enforcement, if you will, available to them in the Police Department. Now of course we have ordinances in City Hall that are locked up in the vault on the second and third shift and on the week ends. I see no need in giving a directive to the City Clerk, if you will, to see that all ordinances are posted in the Police Department for obvious -36- '-" ..""" reasons because the Police Department does not get involved with the enforcement of certain ordinances. So therefore we talked about this and I think the members of the Police Department can verify this fact and that this was one of the complaints brought to us at that meeting. The Police Chief indicated at that meeting with the entire force that ordinances would be made available and he also spoke of the Session laws, which would be made available. Chief - The ordinances were not discussed at the meeting, the Session logs were discussed and they were in there, I just hadn't received the new copy. Officer Kelley, what is the big red book in the Police Department? Officer Kelley - It contains the City Ordinances. Chief - How long has it been there? Officer Kelley - I guess about a month or two. Chief - Mrs. Blackwell, when did you issue me that book? City Clerk Blackwell - The same time I issued everybody's. Chief - Officer Jones, what is in that red book, and how long has it been there? Officer Jones - The City ordinances. Officer Rickelman - City ordinances, I can't say more than a month or two. Chief - Mr5. Blackwell, when did you issue those books? City Clerk - I can't remember exactly, but it has been several months. I know they were issued shortly after Mr. Dietz and Mr. Cairnie came on the Council. Chief - Mr. Woods, when you were the City Judge, where did you find the book of the City Ordinances? and how long ago? Mr. Woods - In the Police Department,since I came on as City Judge. Chief - Officer Tillotson, how long have you been with the Police Department? Officer Tillotson - One year in September. Chief - How long would you say that the red book has been in the Police Department? Officer Tillotson - I will have to say I really don't know, because up until a month ago I was still using the small black book. Chief - Officer Mc Call. Officer Mc Call - I would have to say longer than a month and a half, roughly three to four months. Chief - Officer Kelley, how often have you had the use of that book? Officer Kelley - About once a week or once every two weeks. Chief - And the Florida Session laws have been in there? Officer Kelley - As far as I know they are up to date. Chief - This is the point I am trying to make, Mr. Bryant doesn't know the difference between the City Ordinances and the Florida Session laws. The Florida Session laws have been in that office ever since I got them, and the red book has been in there ever since Mrs. Blackwell issued it to me. -37- " 'w' ..., Mr. Bryant - I submit that the first book that was given to Chief Katez was taken home by Chief Katez, he was later issued a second set that went to the Police Department,and I maintain that books that carry November 1 date, I will agree that they are there, that does not include all of the current ordinances that have been passed since then. Chief - That is not so, Mr. Bryant, that is an out and out lie. The red covered book that Mrs. Blackwell gave me has never been in my house, the books that I had at home are right here, and I got that from Mrs. Blackwell after I got the red book, is that right Mrs. Blackwell. Mrs. Blackwell - Yes sir, you did get it after you got the red book. Chief - This proves that the man told a lie and he knows it. Mayor - The question is, that in the red book, if you will, which is the recognized City Charter and code of ordinances, there has been additional ordinances written that have been passed by the City Council since you received that book. The question is have you obtained copies that pertain to your duties and incorporated them into that book as they were passed? Mr. Woods - Is that his duty to do so, or is it the City Clerk's? Mayor - I would say that any ordinances pertaining to the Police Department it would be the responsibility of the Chief of Police to see to it that he gets the copies. Mr. Woods - How would he know to get the copies, if the City Clerk didn't advise him of which of the current ordinances were available? Mayor - By going to the City Clerk and asking if in fact he has any particular - at this time the Mayor had to call order to the audience and then finish his statement - - I think that it is the Chief of Police's responsibility to see to it that his department is furnished with every necessary paperwork or item in order for him to carry out his duties. If he has to go to the City Clerk 10 min. and determine if, in fact, there are any current information that pertains to his department, then he should do so. Mr. Woods - Shouldnt this be just a matter of course by the City Clerk? Mayor - It would be the responsibility of the City Clerk to see to it that the appropriate agencies receive copies, but it is also the responsibility, like me as mayor, it is my responsibility to check with the City Clerk to see if she has anything for me. I think each department head should take that much interest in their job to see to it that they are not overlooked. Councilman Lodico - Am I correct in saying that when there is a meeting, that the Chief is at every meeting and he knows exactly what ordinances are passed? Mayor - He has not been at every meeting. The point I am trying to make that it is not one persons individual responsibility, I think the responsibility is the City Clerk and the Chief of Police to see to it that his department is furnished with the appropriate legal documents in order to function properly. I think a joint effort.is needed. Mr. Woods - I would say as a final comment that when I was City Judge the ordinances were always available to me. -38- '-' ..."" Mayor - Did you say that you had requested copies? Mr. Woods - No sir, I used the copy in the Police Department. Mrs. Katez - At the beginning of this whole thing, Mr. Bryant stated that he waited ten months on this issue, in this ten months if the Chief did not get issued what they had in here is it his fault? and Mrs. Blackwell, didn't the Chief go into your office and ask you for a copy of the City budget in order that we could view it and she told him that she did not have the authority to give it to him. City Clerk - I didn't say that I didn't have the authority, I said I made copies for the Council, I made a copy for the office, if he wanted to copy it, I made a copy for the library. Mrs. Katez - But you did not give him a copy? Mrs. Blackwell - Neither did I give any other department head a copy. Mrs. Katez - But he did ask for it. Mrs. Blackwell - That is correct, and there was one there he could have copied. Mrs. Katez - So therefore, if he asked for a copy of something it wasnt necessarily so that he would get it, is that right? Mrs. Blackwell - It was made available to him if he wanted to make his own copy, the budget I am speaking of. Clair Johnson - I want to know if the Chief of Police has a secretary? Mayor - He has a day dispatcher, who is his secretary also. Mrs. Johnson - Don't you think that he should have his own secretary since he is bogged down with so much paperwork. Mayor - The Chief has requested this of the Council for the last two years, to have an additional person in his department to assistant in the various categories and functions of the Police Department. Mrs. Johnson - I think that if he had a secretary he could probably function as Police Chief and not a memo writer. # 19. Mayor Severance read the charge in full. 15 min. Mr. Bryant - I would like to call Mr. Tucker forward please, who is our property manager. Mr. Tucker, when you came to the City as property manager, one of the first things that I turned over to you was a folder relative to property and items which I had requested from various department heads, one of the items which I gave to you was amemorandum which had been given to me by the Police Chief relative to the Police Department vehicles. The Chief had given this to me and I put it in the folder and I turned it over to you. I would like to ask you that in your physical inventory of the automobiles, what were your findings? Mr. Tucker - The memorandum that you are speaking of is dated November 17, 1974, I received the document from you and I also received the same document from the Chief of Police. In the physical inventory of our City, I find upon the identification of the item which is on the list that was certified by the Chief that there are three discrepancies in regard to the memorandum versus the physical item which we had on inventory. Mr. Bryant - How many vehicles were listed on the me~orandum? -39- w "'WI Mr. Tucker - There were five. Mr. Bryant - There were three mistakes out of the five. Mr. Tucker - Yes sir, the first item on the agenda was a 1973 ford torino, which was the City Manager's vehicle, there was a 1970 plymouth fury and there was a 1970 fury plymouth, there was a 1974 plymouth and there was a 1973 matidor from American Motors. Mr. Bryant - What did you find that wasn't on the inventory? Mr. Tucker - A 1972 ford torino, instead of a 1973, a plymouth fury, 1973, a plymouth 1974 in lieu of a 1973 and a 74 and 73 as I described. These are a matter of physical inventory in the City of Edgewater that have been properly anitated, inven- toried and they meet specifications required by the State of Florida under Chapter 273 of the Florida Statutes, which is a requirement of Florida Law at the present time. Mr. Bryant - I would like to ask when you, if you will, when you went through the records of what was purchased and then you compared that against the physical inventory of actual items on sight, what did you find in regard to this matter regarding two shotguns held by the Police Department? Mr. Tucker - The City Clerk turned over to me every available record within the City and I have spent approximately 2 months going through these items and I started out with fact that there was a Remington 880 12 gauge pump gun that was bought from the gun shop on Mason Avenue, Daytona Beach, Florida. I have the document but I am not able to find the shotgun in the City of Edgewater and I have screened all of the available property within the City. Mr. Bryant - What did you find relative to the two guns that you did find? Mr. Tucker - I have found two shotguns which are not of record in the City of Edgewater. We do not find a purchase request and we have them physically on hand at the present time and they are located within the Police Department. Mr. Bryant - Do either one of these shotguns match the serial number of the one purchased by the City? 20 min. Mr. Tucker - No sir. Mr. Bryant - In your inventory you did ask Chief Katez where these two shotguns came from did you, and what was his comment? Mr. Tucker - Well, I asked him to please tell me if he had any identification of the two firearms that we had physically on hand and if he could account for the item which we were missing and he said that he didn't have the slightest idea in the world where the item was that was purchased by the City on March 26, 1969. This firearm was at the price of $190.00 and he told me that he did not know how the other shotgun appeared in the City of Edgewater. Mr. Bryant - Would you tell us please how he said we acquired one of the shotguns that we presently have? Mr. Tucker - He told me that .he stopped a driver under the in- fluence and that he saw this firearm in the back seat of the car, he proceed to take the firearm, I think his statement was "I then put it in my police rack" I know nothing further than that. -40- ~ ~ Mr. Bryant - Have you checked the regulation with regard to the compensation of firearms? 25 min. Mr. Tucker - Yes sir. I have talked with the Federal Bureau of Investigation in Washington D.C. they have informed me that the two firearms that we are talking about are not on record with the FBI registry there. I also have gotten in touch with the alcoholic, tobacco and firearms, which is the U.S. Treasurey Department, and I have talked to the Chief Agent located in Orlando, Florida and he directed me to a gun shop located in Daytona Beach which I have a regulation at the present time which was issued by the Department of Treasurey, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms in regard to the City, and if I may Mr. City Manager, I would like to read words from its regulation. " This is a federal regulation and it says that short barreled shotguns meaning a shotgun having one or more barrels, less than 18 inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun whether by alteration, modification, if such weapon was modified and has an overall length of less than 26 inches. Section of Firearms 790.221 of this law states that possession of short barrelled rifles, short barrelled shotguns or any machine gun, 1. It is unlawful for any person to own or to have in his care, or to keep under his control any short barrelled rifle, short barrelled shotgun or machine gun, which is made comparable but this section shall otherwise prevent these firearms. Any person convicted of violating this section, if guilty of a felony, therefore shall be pun- ished by imprisonment in the State penitentury not to exceed five years." Now this is what the regulation states. I would like to read to you the requirements of having a firearm of this nature within your possession. "179.104 Registration of Firearms by Government Agencies. Any state, any political subdivision thereof, or any official police organizations of the government in any criminal investigation is required for official use a firearm will register such firearm with the Director of filing form number 10, (firearms) This section shall apply to any firearm that is being held for the use of evidence in a criminal proceeding. Upon registering the fire- arm, the director shall return the form 10 wit@ notification thereof that registration of the firearm has been made. Tape 6 Side B I have gotten in touch with the Treasury Department and they say that they are not aware of any form being filed by the State of Florida (Edgewater, Florida). Chief - He really jumped on that one didn't he. Mr. Tucker, when you get back to the vehicles, couldn't this be a typegraphical error whether it was a 73 or a 74. Did we discuss the fords? Is it true that the City Manager did not have a title to that car, the one we gave the fire chief? Mr. Tucker - Chief Katez I didn't come up here to try to divide anyone, I came up here for justice and equality and to tell the truth, and I don't have a crystal ball to tell me what happened in the past, all I can do is specifically state what I have been able to learn to read through my doctorate degree and I can not do anything but read thereof. Chief - No one is questioning your degrees or anything like that. I am here fighting for my job and you and the City Manager are sitting there, you have worked this thing out all along now on this gun business. You and I and the City Manager discussed this gun business in the office and I said I don't even know, that I remember taking a gun out of a car, and I was not Chief of Police then. This happened way back when Clyde Heath was Chief. It is not my responsibility to see whether things are, I would like to ask Lt. McCall, how long have the two shotguns been sitting there? -41- '-' ...., Lt. McCall - As long as I can remember Chief - The lieutenant has been here for over six years. I have been with the department for a little over five years. To go further, Mr. Tucker, you gave me a list, also, was I present when you made inventory of my department? Mr. Tucker - I was assisted by three or four people in the inventory of the City. Chief - I am talking about in the Police Department, was I there? Mr. Tucker - You were there on three occasions when I talked to you about Chief - No sir, you handed me a list of the things that you had inventoried, that I had in my department. How many shotguns did you have me listed for? Mr. Tucker - There are three... Chief - That is not what I asked you Mr. Tucker, you had written one shotgun, I went to your office, in there with Mr. Bry.ant, and I said that you have made a mistake here, I have two shotguns, not one. This was discussed, you showed me the ticket which was pur- chased by Clyde Heath. Mr. Tucker - We are not talking about either of the shotguns that are physically located in the Police Department of Edgewater, we are talking about a document for a shotgun that does not exist. I have no record of it existing, but the taxpayers that I am speaking to tonight have paid $109.00 for this gun and I think that they deserve the right to know where it is. Chief - Mr. Tucker, I am not running for office, all I want is my job. Mr. Tucker - I didn't say you were. Chief - Let's go back to the question, you have me listed with one shotgun, and I've got two, where did I get the other one? Mr. Tucker - My crystal ball isn't working. Chief - Well, mine isn't either. I told you and Mr. Bryant in order to settle that thing, and you said that it is all right, everything is o.k.,it is the same model, same gauge, everything, same shotgun. I don't lie to anybody. Mr. Tucker - I haven't accused you of lying, I am telling you the truth, and the fact of what I have on inventory and the fact of what has been purchased by the City of Edgewater. I am not saying who is responsible and I think I made it clear that I am not up here to slice or cut anybody, I am only to tell you that the inventory of the accountability of the City of Edgewater, it is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. 5 min. Chief - Mr. Mayor, I have no further questions on the matter, the man is sitting up there, I don't understand anything that he is saying. He is trying to say that I have a shotgun that I shouldn't have, is this the point. Mayor - Yes, what Mr. Tucker is saying is the City according to records has a shotgun exhibit A, if you will, however the two shotguns we have, which may be the same calibur, same gauge, etc. but the serial numbers that are on the two we have do not match the one that is on record. -42- 'W' ...." Chief - That is true and we discussed that. Mr. Tucker and Mr. Bryant were both there at the same time. Mayor - Mr. Tucker, did you find any other parts of the City that in fact there were problems in properly accounting in the same instance as in the Police Department for instance we are charged with a shotgun that we don't have, is there any other department that has equipment on record that we do not have? Mr. Tucker - The Police Department has the only sensitive item Mayor - I realize that, I mean any other item? Mr. Tucker - All of our inventory and all of our records equal out; we have had several small items that we haye had and the regulations say that you can pick them up and write it in, make a document and certify it by a control number and enter it into your records and certify it and sign it my the property manager and it is legal. Mayor - The question though that I am asking, is did you find in our records currently in the City any items for instance, a particular vehicle, lets say a truck that our records show that we have at the City garage, but in fact when you made the physical inventory, that particular vehicle was not in the City garage? Mr. Tucker - We have documentation on vehicles that I have on record over there that,we have a title for every vehicle bought now, I assume that the inventory that was taken by the City Clerk and the City manager in the past which would allow an older vehicle to be traded in on a newer vehicle, I have still some documentation that do not have the titles attached, but there are no variations on the facts that the items are except with the documentation. Mr. Coles - Does not that law that you just read speak of short shotguns or short rifles? Mr. Tucker - I am told by the Alcoho~and Tobacco tax that it has to be registered, the agent in charge assured me that it would be registered because he would come to the City of Edgewater and personally register both items. Mr. Coles - Have you ever measured that shotgun? Mr. Tucker - I don't have to. Mr. Coles - You read that law again, it says if it's a shotgun less that 18 inches in barrel length or 26 inches in over all. Mr. Tucker - I can gaurantee you that it is less than 26 inches. I am talking about the barrel. Mr. Cole - No sir, I beg to differ with you, overall length is from the but to the tip of the barrel. 10 min. City Attorney - The form that we are talking about is form 10 which is for use by the police in case any weapon is held for evidence. Mr. Woods - Charge 19 is talking about inventorying property. Mayor - The fact remains, that in fact the two weapons that are on hand at the Police Department are not documented properly. -43- 'w' ,...., Mr. Coles - Has anybody actually signed for this shotgun? Have you got a list of the Chief's after this Chief Heath who signed for it? Chief - Clyde Heath was the one who signed for it. The gun that is over there now is not one of the guns that I took out of the vehicle. Mr~. Katez - Did I understand you correctly to say that the shotgun was bought in 1969 which is not on record? Do you have the check where that shotgun was purchased? Mayor - The gun was purchased in 1969, and I believe Mr. Heath purchased it at the gunshop. This particular weapon is n~t in the possession of the Police Department. Mrs. Katez - Is it not correct that you have had four Chiefs since then. My point is this, you have just hired a man to do inventory, what is so wrong about my husband being in there at this point when he makes his inventory and something is a little improper, and all of these other people (chiefs) have come here and they weren't brought up for it? Why wasn't the City Council aware that there was a shotgun that was not regis- tered to this City before now, my husband only became the Chief of Police in 1972. Mayor - I can only answer this way, that we have never had an inventory within this City. Mrs. Katez - That is the point I'm trying to make, how can he be more responsible for it than any other department ahead that has stuff that cannot be documented for, or any other man that has been in his position before. How can the Council hold him more responsible than themselves, or a City Manager or any other man in this City? Mayor - I personally don't know myself. Mrs. Katez - I would like to ask Mr. Bryant if he feels that the Chief should be more responsible for the possessions of the City than the City Manager? 15 min. Mr. Bryant - In my opinion, where it is a sensitive type item, it is encumbant upon whoever received it, if you will, that it be properly accounted for and it should have, after the turning over of whoever Chief Katez took over from, it should have been accounted for in the proper manner. Councilman Sikes - Do all of the patrolmen have their own weapons? Chief - That is correct, they have their own side arms and some of them have their own shotguns. Councilman Sikes -And we have no other weapons in the City hall, except these guns? Chief - Those two shotguns, Mr. Sikes, have been there since I have been there, they have been there since the lieutenant has been there, now I don't know how those guns got there, they were there when I got here. Councilman Sikes - We are required by law that the Police Depart- ment to register all those guns, regardless of the size of the barrel, right? Chief - No sir, just on the short barrel, and they are not called shotguns. Councilman Sikes - Are we making an effort to comply and registering them? Are we getting them registered? -44- '-' 'W Mr. Tucker - There is a requirement by every gun shop owner in the world that a gun in which he sells to a customer must have a serial number and that serial number must be on record with the Alcohol and Tobacco and Firearms in Washington, D.C. The reason for this is if there is a gun that is used in a felony they have a record of its manufacture, the serial number of it and the purchaser of that item. I am told by .. Councilman Sikes - The main item is that we have two guns and we can't determine hO\oT we got them, we are missing one, but are getting our house in order to where that we are complying with the laws, are we making an effort to register these two shotguns. Mr. Tucker - Yes sir, I am in process now of having a man come down so that we can get them on the firearms registration list, to find out the present identity of who owns them. As I am not blaming anybodY in this house for how they got here and I don't want to cause any impression that I am accusing anybody of any- thing, but I will work with the Alcohol and Tobacco and Firearm place and they have asked me to register that number of the serial number so that if there is a theft from Edgewater and it is used in a violation where that gun is picked up that they will know who the owner is. We want the firearms division in Washington, 20 min. D.C. and they are working out of Orlando, Florida, they will be here the first of the week, and I will pick the two, in accordance of the regulations, if I may quote you officially, Chapter 273 of the Florida Statutes says that if I find something on installation that I must pick it up and I will pick up both of these firearms and I will properly put them into our inventory and they will be accounted for, however I want the Council to know that there is nothing that I can do about the firearm that is now missing that we have on our record as being purchased, and I am not blaming anybo~y for it, all I am doing is telling you what property accountability is. Chief - This is the same line that Mr. Bryant and Mr. Tucker and I discussed in their office, now they have brought this thing out to make me look like maybe I have done away with a shotgun. The same thing Mr. Tucker just got through saying, is the same line he used, that he would get it straightened out, and they brought this thing out to make it look bad on me, and I want you to look at it long and hard because I think right now you can see what is in the wind, because those two right there have brought this thing up to make me look bad, now I am guilty of not doing my job, but I am a man and human... Mr. Tucker - May I say something. Mayor Severance had to call order to the audience, and he stated that it was the last warning,and that the officers will clear the halls. Mr. Tucker - There is only one reason that I bring this to you because I am under the supervision of the City Manager. I wear two hats in this City, and I think that everybody here knows that I am the City Judge, and I answer to the City Council for this, and I want my bosses that I am facing here to know that we are going to handle this in accordance with regulations and it will meet the regulations when we are through and that is my promise to you. # 20. Mayor Severance read this charge in full. -45- ...,. ...." Mr. Bryant - I talked with the Chief some time ago, it was bpought to my attention by some of the officers in the department, I can not recall names, concerning the situation that I think was brought out in item #20, the fact that we do have two shotguns that were sitting in the squad room unsecured with ammunition in the guns which would have required simply someone to pick it up, pump it one time and you have a deadly weapon in someone's hands. I have pictures of the guns in an unsecured fashion and the pictures will show that there are in fact shells in these guns at all hours of the day, unsecured. 25 min. Chief - Mr. Bryant has never discussed locking those guns with me. The only time that this was ever brought up about the shot- guns, the lock, and I think I can verify this by the men,he said last week that he had discussed locking the guns at the meeting that he had with us, now tonight he says that it was brought to his attention by some of the men in the department. This is not so, he mentioned it a week before he showed me the letter that I was suspended. I would like to ask Officer Rickelman what was discussed at the meeting about the shotguns, what type of locks were we talking about? Officer Rickelman - The only locks that were discussed were the locks in the vehicles. Chief - That is true, this was discussed, when I brought up the $32.00 and something, Mr. Bryant said, We can't spend anymore money. Officer Kelley - That is the only thing I remember. Tape 7 Side A Lt. Mc Call - The locks in vehicles. Chief - This proves my point, Mr. Bryant, never discussed this with me, except the other day, when he said he had reports from the officers. Mayor - Are the shotguns that we currently have in the Police Department, kept in an unsafe manner, in your opinion? Chief - In my opinion, they are behind the door, I will say that they are not locked, lets go back to the statement that Mr. Tucker made the other day about those shotguns. Mr. Tucker mentioned that to Mr. ~yant, also, he mentioned it in front of Mrs. Woodard. Mrs. Woodard - I was in Mr. Bryant's office with the Chief, and it came up about the shotguns. The Chief said to Mr. Tucker that Mr. Bryant had never discusses it with him. Mr. Bryant said I verbally might have said something to you but I don't remember. Chief - Mr. Tucker made the remark that day that Chief Ferriera keeps his shotguns locked in his office and he is the only one with a key. Now what if an officer needs a shotgun in the middle of the night. Mayor - My question is the fact that you admit that the shotguns are not stored in the proper place, they could be in a more secure place, they are in the position now where anyone could go in and utilize them. Chief - They are not locked, but the shotguns are behind the door. Mayor - Are you aware of the fact that the shotguns have been put back there in a loaded condition? Chief - I have issued orders, and I have chewed a few men out if they leave one in the chamber. Those guns are loaded, but there are no shells in the chamber. Mayor - I know as a matter of fact that there is a shotgun over there that did have a shell in the chamber. The photograph shows it very plainly, this is why I asked the question were you aware and did you give orders verbal or written that shotguns were not to be left in that condition? -46 '-' ..",; Chief - No, I was not aware of recently that there was a shell in the chamber, and I did give the officers orders not to do this. Mrs. Katez - Do you agree that we do have a condition in the Police Department that does not have adequate security measures for storing things of this type? Mayor - I would say that we do have a condition in the Police Department which does not have presently adequate security measures to put shotguns in, if you will, but they can be obtained. # 21. Mayor Severance read the charge in full 5 min. Mr. Bryant - We talked about this morale problem that I speak of here. I think it is something that most of the folks here in Edgewater are well aware of. I bring your attention to the minutes of the meeting July 1, 1914,where apparently problems have preceded that particular date, therefore it was brought to the Council's attention. You have, Mayor and Council members been aware of the morale problem which has existed in the Police Department, which were existing when I got here. Some of the items we talked about in the June 11, 1915 meeting of this was the situation which existed prior to my coming here wherein a change in the work schedule was made while a man was on vacation and he came back, he was called in to report in early. The man had traveled most of the day and was tired and felt that he would be operating in an unsafe situation, and subsequently was docked a day's pay because he did not come in early. This was due to the fact that the schedule was changed while he was on vacation. An item brought up at this meeting was the Chief, in fact was not receiving complaints from the citizens who would come and while he was in fact in his office. There was little or no communications, if you will, from the Chief with members of his department, which can be verified by the fact that since I have been here there have been no group meetings of the Police Department, which I consider most particularly in dangerous situations, important for coordination, if you will. I feel group meetings are necessary in order to fill in the entire Police Department on the fact that the ordinances were not available. Pay checks in some cases did not receive over time which had been worked. I have memoranda which have been issued to state that this has happened. It was also talked of in this meeting about the lack training for the record personnel. These items were apparently brought up and I assume that these were matters concerning various members of the department which in effect had a result on the overall morale in that department. Councilman Sikes - When I came on the Council in March some- time thereafter, I remember there being problems that we had in the Police Department. I have a copy of the July 1st minutes and at that time Councilman Clinton was the coordinator for the Police Department and he had had several meetings up to that point. At this regular meeting on Monday, Chief of Police and quite a few members of the Police Department were present at that meeting and I am going to read from these minutes, and perhaps if Mr. Clinton is present he could tell us the purpose of their having these meetings at that time. "Councilman Clinton brought to the Council's attention that he was informed about three or four days ago that we are having some problems in the Police Department, he stated that he had talked with the Chief about this and also talked with the members of the Police De- partment. He stated that he didn't know how to go about taking care of it, he stated that he asked the Chief if he would set up a meeting with the members of the Police Department. He set one up and canceled it due to the fact that all the members of the Police Department did not attend. He stated that he was -41- ~ ~ informed this afternoon that they felt that they would like to have a meeting before the whole Council. Mayor Severance directed the officers that were present at the meeting that if they had one person among them that would like to be a spokes- man to discuss this with the Council and the Chief. Chief Katez stated that all the members of the Police Department were not present. He stated that he had no objection to this, except that he feels that there are certain places that you should laundry your dirty linen and the public is not one of them. He said that he knows that the Police Department has problems. Mayor Severance asked the Police Department if they wanted to discuss this matter now with the Councilor did they want to have a meeting first with the coordinator and the Chief and then request a meeting with the Council if in fact the problems are not resolved. Officer Kelley stated that they have decided that they didn't want to bring this in front of the public and that they felt that it was their problem, as families have their problems. They would like to go ahead and have a meeting with the Chief and the coordinator and if that does not bring desired results then they will have to take it to the Council and the public. Mayor Severance stated that as far as this meeting that they are going to have between the Chief and the coordinator any information that is going to be released will come to the Mayor first, it is not meant to bar the press in any way, if the press wants any information they can call the Mayor and he will give them what information that has been related to him." At this point I have had one or two of the patrolmen talk to me and they indicated that if these things were not straightened out that they were going to resign and go to the New Smyrna police force. Mr. Clinton, could you come forward so that we can have some questions answered? We had this problem over a year ago. Tape 7 10 min. Mr. Clinton - This happened a long time ago and I don't remember everything that happened. Mr. Kelley was the spokesman for the Police Department. The only thing that I can tell you is that when this meeting was over with the Police Department, I thought, the problem was solved. They can tell you really more that hap- pened than I can. Mayor - MY question is this, not right after that meeting, but you were coordinator beyond that point. Any time during, after that meeting until the time that the City Manager took over, did in fact any officers come to you and state that there still was a morale problem and everything had reverted back to its original low morale category? Mr. Clinton - No sir. Because just like Mr. Sikes read, if they had not been satisfied then they were going to ask to come before the Council. Councilman Sikes - Did you say to me that we have a problem with the Chief and the entire force is about to resign? Mr. Clinton - Yes sir. Some of the problems were serious, some of them pickey. The uniforms were discussed, the cars were discussed and different items. Mr. Woods - This was over a year ago, naturally your mind fails, I don't see any objection to call on the officers to tell us about the morale problems. Councilman Lodico - Would I be out of order to ask them what the twenty items were? Chief - Mayor, after this meeting is it true that you put a 15 min. memorandum on the board and you left it up there a week for any person who has any difficulty, they were to contact you? Mayor - This is true, the memorandum stated that if in the future any of the morale problems that were discussed in the meeting reoccured and they felt that they were not solved that they were to call them to my attention. I will have to say at this time -48- ~ ~ no officer, no person from the Police Department confronted me with any problem. Councilman Sikes - Did you have a meeting with the entire force after that time? Mayor - Yes, there were two additional meetings, however they were over a long period of time, the latest one being back in the spring of this year. I had talked to the Chief and told him that there was a morale problem and I believe Chief, that you had told me that you didn't believe there was a morale problem at that time, is this correct? Chief - That is right. Mayor - However, I stated that I thought there was, so in con- junction with that I asked you to meet individually with each member of your department to discuss the morale problem, and you did in fact meet with each member, and in some cases you taped the conversation, but you asked prior to the discussion if they had any objections to their taping the conversation. Now, in addition to that I told the Chief that I personally would also be meeting with each member of the Police Department and discuss the problem of morale and then the Chief, City Manager and myself would meet and we would discuss the morale problems that were discussed with the Chief and the ones that were dis- cussed with me at my home and we would correlate these items together and we would come out in a written form explaining each morale question or complaint, if you will, in detail as to what was going to be done or what was not going to be done. A copy of the memorandum was going to be put in each Police Department personnel's pay envelope so they would know that action was taken on this complaint. However we never got that far. We got as far as the meetings with the individual depart- ment members and my meetings, the meeting between the Chief, the City Manager and myself never materialized because it was the Council's desire that I not meddle in the Police Department affairs. Therefore since that the June 11th meeting was between the City Manager and the Chief and the department members. Chief - What you have said is true, the agreement was and you told me while we were patrolling that it was on tape, I was then to meet with you at your house with the City Manager, but then I understand that a meeting was held at your residence with the City Manager present. He was not suppose to be there on your and I's meeting, but he was there. Mayor - And the reason he was there was because all the Police Department personnel stated that they would not meet unless the City Manager was present because evidently they did not have the faith that I would in fact carry out and discuss in detail the problems. As a matter of fact I received a phone call from an officer stating 'I can't get the people there, they will not attend unless the City Manager is there. Councilman Lodico - You mean to tell me that some of these people were asked to spill their hearts in tape? Mayor - Chief asked them is they had any objection to him taping their complaints rather than making long hand notes? Chief - Here we go again, Mr. Mayor. that. You suggested that I do 20 min. Mayor - That is correct. Councilman Lodico - I just wonder how many of them would tell their complaints to you or him on tape. =49- '-' ...., Mayor - I don't know but it would be the same as telling it verbally, because he was going to take notes of what was dis- cussed. The point is we didnt get together to discuss the problems within the Police Department. Chief - Mr. Bryant what date did we have that meeting in your office? Mr. Bryant - June 11th. Chief - What time? Mr. Bryant - 3:00 Chief - Why was it set for 3:00? Mr. Bryant - As a matter of fact, I didn't know that it had been arranged for 3:00. The City Clerk wrote it on my calender. Chief - O.K. that is fine, Mrs. Blackwell arranged it for 3:00. Who was there at that meeting with you and the men and I. Mr. Bryant - On this particular Wednesday afternoon, it happened to be that by Resolution the City Council authorized themselves to come into my office to discuss administrative functions and activities that we are faced with on a day to day bases. Mr. Dietz and Mr. Cairnie were there, and if you recall I don't think they had too much to say, they were there until 4:00 at which time they left. Chief - I think my point was made that they were there, and I stated that I had no objections, but I didn't thihk it was proper that we were suppose to be in a departmental meeting. I stated that I talked with each and every man and that they had no problem. I think your remark was about me being an ostrich with my head in the sand if I couldn't see that I had a problem. Is it not true that you have talked with each one of the people in my department, with the exception of three about this morale problem? and did you not tell me that I had a morale problem with every man in there with the exception of three. Mr. Bryant - I might had, I probably did. 25 min. Chief - Those three men were, Officer Westfall, Lt. McCall and John Ziers. Mr. Bryant, I have a pretty good memory that hap- pen and when they happen. I do not lie. Mr. Bryant - May I suggest that since morale is not something of a nature that you can measure by sight, that this is relative to a persons feelings, since we do have most of the members of the Police Department we might ask individuals concerning this matter. Chief - I have talked with each man, I don't know whether Mr Bryant has engineered this, but I think that you will find that two in my department have a morale problem, possibly three. Mayor - I am going to ask two questions here, the first question is Was there ever any morale problem in the Police Department? the second question is Is there a morale problem presently? You may answer yes or no or you may state no comment if you wish. Officer Kelley - I have to say yes to both questions. Officer Jones - I have to say yes to both questions. -50- '-' -..I Tape 1 Side B Officer We~tfall - I will have to say No to both questions with reasons. Lt. Mc Call - Yes to the first one, no to the second one. Officer Tillotson - I can't speak to the past, but just that we are having a meeting of this type I will hav.e to say yes to the second one. Officer Page - I don't feel like I can answer the first question. I will have to say yes to the second one. Officer Rickelman - Yes to both. Officer Realmuto - I will have to say yes to the second one, I can not answer the first one. Miss Davis - Yes there was and there still is. Mrs. Garvey - There was and there still is. Chief - I would liketo know what the morale problem is. Mayor - I think the only way to answer that is to ask a question of the people in the department Are the same morale problems in existance today that were in existance in the past? Officer Kelley - Yes, some are, not all of them. Officer Jones - Some Officer Westfall - If I may say that in some of these meetings the men have said that a spokesman has been elected to speak, I feel that I can speak for myself and I believe that I voiced that. If I have any problems with any individual I feel that I can wash it out myself. There are different individuals that would like recognition for things that they do, a pat on the back and things like this. This is all well and good, but I think if you can cope with yourself to try to satisfy the people you can get along with them you can do a whole lot more than talking about the person behind their backs, if you have something to say, be man enough to walk in front of a person and tell him. If you can't work it out that way then I don't feel that I should be wearing this uniform. I try to work things out personally without trying to involve anyone else. Lt. Mc Call - My problems in the past are over with. Officer Tillotson - I have not been here long enough. Officer Page - I am the same as Officer Tillotson. Officer Rickelman - The same, some of the problems remain some of the areas deal with the Chief and some of them deal with the City Council and the City. Officer Realmuto - Not here long enough. Miss Davis - The same problems exist, if not more so. Mrs. Garvey - May I say something, may I suggest that the tapes be played and let the City of Edgewater hear for themselves what is on those tapes, and also, would you please read the list of grievances that we all gave you and you personally hand wrote. I think the people are entitled to know. -51- ..... .."", partment and borrow things from them and they're not good enough. All we want is somebody who will go in there and fight for us. Chief - What you are trying to say is that you don't feel that I am fighting hard enough to get your equipment, is this where I am to blame? Officer Rickelman - This is part of it. Chief - This is the point I wanted brought out, I don't know how bad I can fight with the City Manager, but I believe that Mrs. Blackwell can verify that I have been in there just about every day with him and I am cut off. I was even told... well I will get to that later. Officer Kelley - My complaints were your paranoia towards the City Council, the lack of equipment, the back stabbing that was going on in the department, how we can not trust one another, the lack or the failure of proper administration; our records system is an example. Chief - Have you talked with Mr. Bryant on this, has he corrected you on this? Officer Kelley - I talked to Mr. Bryant this evening for about five minutes, he asked me one question and that was the entire conversation. Chief - Was that the only time you ever talked with him. Officer Kelley - That was the only time, I did talk to Mr. Bryant at the meeting we had with the department, about the records, for instance, Mrs. Leclair and myself personally ourselves checked into with Tallahassee the possibility of destroying some records that were not comparable at this time. We were advised that certain records could be destroyed with their permission. We were advised by you to take no further action on it because the more we had the more it would look like we needed more room. We were attempting to clear out the records cabinet, and that was another one of the things in the Police Depart- ment that I though you could have taken care of. Chief - So you are saying that the whole blame is on me? Officer Kelley - As far as the equipment is concerned that we need we feel that the City Council is not giving us the backing that we need to protect the citizens of Edgewater. Chief - Do you feel like I am fighting hard enough for you? Officer Kelley - No sir, like I said before we feel that you are super p~ranoid to fight with the City Council. Chief - Let's go back to paranoid, what is the definition of paranoid? 15 min. Officer Kelley - Scared of Chief - Scared of, or someone who is always, well would you say this is a good example of it here, of the City Manager, of the charges he made. Officer Kelley - It would be my responsibility right now to refuse to answer that, I don't know. Officer Jones - Yes sir, I still feel that there is, not back stabbing, but the favoritism still exists somewhat and that well, I can't stand up here and think of an actual instance, I still feel that there isn't fair treatment to all officers like I told you the other day. Chief - What was your biggest gripe the last time we had a meeting? -53- '-' ..." Mayor - At the time of my taking the notes,between that time and the present time I was instructed by the City Council to get out of the Police Department's business and I turned those notes over to the City Manager, because he was going to have a meeting with the Chief of Police and they were going to discuss the problem. Mrs. Garvey - May I please ask where the tapes are? Mayor - The Chief has the tapes. Mrs. Garvey - The Chief informed someone that he destroyed them all, why? Chief - Mrs. Garvey I didn't say that I had destroyed them, I said I didn't have them in my office, and that I intended to destroy them. Mrs. Garvey - Would you have any objection, to play those tapes for the City of Edgewater. Chief - No objection at all, but I would rather ask the Mayor if he would direct a question to the men if their morale problem is the fault of my own. Mayor - The question to the officers Is the morale problem a direct result of the Chief of Police? Officer Kelley - Yes sir, part of them. Officer Jones - Yes sir. Officer Westfall - No Lt. Mc Call - No. Officer Tillotson - I say whoever's shoulders it falls on, I say my problems are the lack of equipment and the ability to do the job completely, which isn't really the Chief's fault. I don't know if it is in the budgetting, or what, I feel that I have been handicapped in my job. Officer Page - I will have to ~gree with Officer Tillotson. Officer Rickelman - Exactly, word for word. Officer Realmuto - No comment Miss Davis - Yes. Mrs. Garvey - Yes. At this time the Chief tried to play the tapes for the Council Chief - This might be one of them that I attempted to erase, beeause I did intend to destroy them. The men were told that no one would hear the tapes but you and I. I would just like to ask the men what their problems are. 10 min. Chief Officer Rickelman, what is the problem Mayor - You may answer if you wish or you may reserve the right to make no comment. Officer Rickelman - It seems to me that the basic problem, which you were asked before, if you would speak out and go and fight for us. Obviously the Chief is scared for his job, some of the things that we needed according to our budget $1,000 was what we had and it would buy nothing. We have to go to the Fire De- -52- W' "WI Officer Jones - The biggest gripe was favoritism and back stabbing among the employees. Chief - Did you talk to Mr. Bryant on the watts list?' Officer Jones - Yes, one of my most important gripes was the favoritism of the watts list. I felt that two or three of the officers were getting mistreated Chief - Are you satisfied with the watts list that was put up in June? Officer Jones - Yes sir. Lt. Mc Call - Mine is allover with. Chief - May I ask you if the previous morale problem had anything to do with me? Lt. Mc Call - Before, yes, but now no. Officer Tillotson - As I said, whoever shoulders the responsibility falls on, but I will say that mostly the equipment that we need to do our jobs properly. Chief - Mr. Bryant, when was the last time that I asked you about the uniforms, and what did you tell me? 20 min. Mr. Bryant - Most of the discussion concerning uniforms; the biggest problem was in the area of the dispatchers. The fact that the uniforms that were purchased before I came to the City did not fit the dispatchers. Chief - This has been corrected? Mayor - On the uniforms, I believe. Chief - Mr. Bryant, I asked you, with one of the dispatchers in there at the time, am I going to be able to promise these people uniforms before the next budget? You said definitely. Where are the uniforms, Mr. Bryant, and how many times have I talked to you about it? Mr. Bryant - We have talked about it several times and it boils down to thepriority with the money available to spend that we have to spend. Chief - That is true, I am being blamed for the morale problem on uniforms of something that I have no control of. Chief - Officer Westfall do you feel that the morale problem was my fault? Officer Westfall - I believe that some of it may have been. The meeting did have the air to it that something may have been manufactured. Again with all due respect, I feel that as long as there is ample amount of courtesy and respect given it is always returned.I have noticed that there has been no Councilman or even the Chief talk to me on any of these issues. I feel that certain issues should be brought out in certain places and any questions about any other officer I reserve the right to keep the comments to myself. As far as the meetings, I felt that somebody was being put on the spot with all the questions were pointed directly at the Chief. Councilman Sikes - Officer Westfall have you or any of the other patrolmen been told not to talk to any of the Councilmen. 25 min. Officer Westfall - I certainly couldn't answer for any other patrolman, but I will answer for myself. In the way I do things, if it was concerned with the Police Department, my first concern would be with the Police Department. If you have a question directly for me in regards to different things, -54- '-' ..., Mr. Gross - Mr. Lodico you said before that if anyone disobeyed you they were fired, is that correct? Councilman Lodico - The first time I might not, but the second time I would. Mr. Gross - Mr. Lodico said that he would fire someone who was subordinate the second time, Mr. Bryant said that for ten months he has tolerated Mr. Katez's subordination, I say that the man on trial is there... At this time it was hard to understand the tape because of Mr. Gross's yelling into the microphone. Mr. Gross was asked several times to be seated. Mr. Clinton - The Chief's accused of not fighting for the police Department. Now, back in the winter time when all of these policemen were running around without jackets, did the Chief ask to have jackets bought for the Police Department? Mayor - Yes he did. Mr. Clinton - Was the Chief told to check Army Navy, Pennys, Wards, Sears, and allover the place? Mayor - Yes. 25 min. Mr. Clinton - I went to Orlando with the Chief, he got one and then everyone got real nice jackets. Also, one time he asked for some tires for the police cars, the Council says no, not the Council, somebody said no, you can get some more millage out of these by swapping them around,this same night, one of the policemen was driving the car and he had a blowout. There has been time after time that you have made a statement, I have made the statement, and Mr. Bevel probably made the statement, "Hey, here's George, he's going to be asking for something else again." Right? He is always asking for stuff for this Police Department. Mayor - That is right. Mr. Clinton - So what he is being accused of, all of these policemen were not at these meetings. This man has fought, and asked and begged for stuff for the Police Department. Mayor - Yes, he has, on occassion he has. One time he has requested more personnel, and since 1972 it has gone from three people to nine. 'Tape 8 Side B Mr. Nichols - What other departments was this decay of morale spreading to? Mr. Bryant - The personnel department. Mr. Nichols - Because I worked in the Street Department and I didn't know anything was going on. Councilman Lodico - I've heard things here tonight that I have never heard, the Chief never told us anything, Mr. Clinton didn't tell us anything. Mayor If you recall a few meetings ago I made the state- ment; when it was brought out by Mr. Dietz and yourself, that I was not to become involved in it, it was the City Manager's re- sponsibility, and at that time, I believe that I mentioned to you that it was my intention that after the meeting that I was going to make a full report to the Council as to what was discussed and what action was being taken, and a copy of the memo and answers to the complaints would be furnished also. However that never materialized. =58- '-" "wII then I would have had to reserve the right to remain on the ground that I have given. Chief - In answer to this question, I did make the remark that it should come through me and if we can't settle it we will go to the Council. Now this happened a year ago, and Mr. Bryant is bringing this out again. Chief - Officer Page would you say that the morale problem is all because of the Chief of Police? Officer Page - I dont know Chief. Chief - That is all of the officers, most of the problem is not off on me, as the signs were broughtout that it was en- gineered by Mr. Bryant, and it will come out later. Tape 8 Side A Chief - Miss Davis, do you feel like the moral problem is on the Chief of Police? Miss Davis - Yes sir Chief - In what way? Miss Davis - In every way. I would like to read the list that came out of the July, 1974 meeting. Chief - I don't think that is needed. Councilman Dietz - These points that you are bringing out now are pertaining to the present time or to the past? Miss Davis - Some of the are still existing and a few of them have been eliminated. Councilman Dietz - I would like to hear all of them, but please state which ones still exist. Mayor - Now, are these your complaints, or complaints that came out of the meeting? Miss Davis - They came out of the meeting. We were all instructed to make a list of our grievances and that we would be heard by the City Council after the council meeting was over. Officer Westfall had nothing to do with the list, he sat with the Chief. These were the feelings of allof us present at the meeting, in reference to the Chief: The Chief creates constant confusion among our men and dispatchers. He tries to keep everyone in the department hating each other. He threatens us not to discuss anything with the Councilor Sue Blackwell. He blames everything that we don't get on the Council, saying that they won't pay for it. The main thing is that he won't ask for it. He cuts down the Merit Board and Sue Blackwell. He cuts down the other officers to other officers. He gets out of paying overtime pay by saying that the Council won't accept it and tearing overtime sheets, he has done this many times. lie doesn't judge a man by his work, rather by how many favors he does for him. He doesn't appreciate his men, doesn't ever/say: Youre doing a fine job. Chief Is she saying that all of these things still exist? Mayor - Yes, Miss Davis, if you will, while you go along will you please state whether they still exist or not. Mis Davis - I'll go back to the overtime, we have time cards now. The men have been instructed not to punch the time cards when they -55- '-' "W1I work overtime, they are to write it down. In quite a few cases they are not paid their overtime because of this. 5 min. Forgets very important things after being reminded many times. By important things, I mean things like equipment, like some- thing goes wrong with a tire, we might give him a message quite a few times before he gets around to it. Mayor - Does this still exist now? Miss Davis - Yes. If you take a problem to him, it gets hashed out to entire department and you wish you hadn't taken it to him before he is finished with it, makes the problem worse than originally. He puts down any type of authority over his job, tries to make us resent it. lie tries to get men to spy on one another and bring information back to him. lie hates suggestions to improve work, indicating that we are 10 min. trying to run department for him. - Everything was locked up at one time and if we run out of something over the week end we were just out. Right now this has improved to some degree. I suggested that all of these things not be locked up and he got very angry, and he said if you don't like the way I run the department, get out. Paranoid about his job and the Council. Better self treatment than for the men. - He would ask for things for himself but the heck with the men. At one time the sergeant's powers were limited, apparently now these problems have been solved. He would also ridicule the sergeant in front of the other men. We also discussed the need for Federal funding, that he would look into it, and this was not done. I feel that there a lot more important things on the list that was compiled at the last meeting at the mayor's home. Chief - Mrs. Garvey, do you have the same feelings that Miss Davis has? Mrs. Garvey - Yes sir, and Mr. Mayor we have gone to five depart- mental meetings and have reached nowhere. Mr. Clinton was our coordinator and he admitted that he didn't know how to handle it. It was no sense taking any problems anywhere, we were frustrated we didn't know who to go to. We go to the City Clerk, Connie Kensey knows it, the Chief says this happened a year ago, sir I remind you that this goes to when you were made chief, we have had these problems for three solid years and you know it. Chief - Mr. Bryant may I ask you a question or do you want to tell me what you said some weeks ago about the certain ones in my department? Mr. Bryant - What are you referring to, Chief? Chief - I am talking about the childish complaints that Mrs. Garvey had. Mr. Bryant - No sir, because it has no relevancy here as far as I am concerned. Chief - You did, sir, make that remark. Mayor - Mr. Bryant if you will read the list of the most recent meeting and who was present at the meeting also. Mr. Bryant - Mayor, I don't have the list, I can go over some of -56- _. ~.. - - '-'-" ....,. 15 min. the thoughts discussed at your home where I was present and with you to concur the questions that were asked at that time. The problem came up about chewing out individuals, if you will, in front of other people in the department. The lack of written instructions as to what the officers and the members of the department were supposed to do. The lack of follow up on those things that the Chief apparently indicated that he was going to do for this department as a whole. The playing of one person against another person, if you will. The fact that when things didn't go in accordance with the way, or he was put on the spot, if you will, that either the Councilor myself was ridiculed and the real problem was not brought to the surface. The fact that we talked about this business of the servicing of automobiles, which I had directed, if you will, was not being done. The fact that it was generally agreed upon by members of the department that the instructions given to one person in one particular in- stance was one thing and was something else when it was given to another person. These are the general type questions, Mayor, do you refute any of the questions that I brought out as what was brought out at the meeting? Mayor - No sir, as I remember these were some of the questions that were brought out by various members of the department, I might add that there were two members who were not present; Officer Westfall and Mrs. Garvey. Mr. Bryant - All of what has been discussed for the last hour is what I speak to in this memorandum to the City Council con- cerning morale. I think that it amounts to personal feelings with respect to whatever someone is doing, and I submit that members of the department and I might add that the majority of the department feels that a morale problem did exist and still does exist. Mr. Woods - I think as you poled the officers as they got up to speak, it seemed that the main problem of morale was the disappointment with the City Council not to allow them the proper equipment to do their job. Mayor - One of the issues as I understand it was the fact that the Chief did not confront the City Council in the manner in which some of the officers felt they should in order to achieve the goal for the equipment and so forth. Chief - Mr. Bryant, did you not tell me that I was not to go to the Council for anything, that I had to go through you first? Mr. Bryant - That is basically true, yes. City Council should go through me. All requests to the Chief - Have been to you on equipment and things like that for my Police Department? 20 min. Mr. Bryant - That is right, and these items were brought up at budget time, if you will, all of the items that you submitted and because of necessary budget cuts some of these items were cut out. From time to time I have submitted whatever you have given to me to the Council for their consideration. Chief - Did you also put in there on the fire extinguishers that I was told to take care of this at the City yard a couple of months ago? Mr. Bryant - That is right, and that has been placed on the budget. I do not consider that a factor in morale. Mr. Gross - I would like to put this in a statement form, Mayor - No sir, a statement will not be allowed, you must have a question on the item. -57- '-' ...." Mr. Gross - May I ask Mr. Bryant why he didn't tell the Council for ten months? Mayor - No sir, you are out of order, it must be a question concerning morale. Mr. Walter Gross - I have a statement to make... Mayor - No sir, you are out of order. Mr. John Gross - Mr. Mayor....... Mayor - I will have to ask the Deputy Sheriff to escort Mr. John Gross from the building, please. There will be no more disturbance in this meeting, if you have a question to ask about morale I will be glad to recognize you. Mr. Walter Gross - I stood out in front of this building a week ago Tuesday, Mrs. Woodard, my wife and I. Councilman Lodico came out and in front of the three of us, now I have never known Chief Katez before except that I knew he was the Police Chief, but when Mr. Lodico got done telling us a story how two years ago he was going to sue Chief Katez for slander, he had a grudge against him and .. Mayor - You are out of order, you must have a question. Mr. Gross - I just wanted to ask if he will refrain from voting on any decision which is made here? 1'1ayor - He can not do so, State Law requires he must vote yes or no. Mrs. Katez - One of the complaints was about the men running out of materials, Chief Katez has always been available by phone to get any equipment. My question is how can he be responsible for not getting money from the Council, to provide uniforms, tires, and such? These things must be approved by the Council. Chief - Let's go back to the spotlight for the automobiles.. The City Auto fixes them I think the men, well let me ask Mr. Kelley, how many days did we send one car back out to the City yard with spotlight trouble? Officer Kelley- Three, that I remember. they didn't have the parts. They kept saying that Chief - Therefore, I am being blamed for something that was done at the City yard, that couldn't be fixed. Mrs. Woodard - At the beginning of the meeting Mr. Sikes offered Chief Katez to be paid in full up until he retires, is that right? Mayor - That is correct? Mrs. Woodard - Did you have a meeting about this? he was prejudged, and I want this clarified. It seems like 5 min. Councilman Sikes - I have over several months been contacted by several patrolmen, and so I called George up Friday morning after I talked with our attorney to see if I would be out of order talking to George, so I did talk to him and his attorney this evening, right before this meeting, and they indicated that they would like for me to do this, present this proposal. None of the other Councilmen had any knowledge of it whatsoever. If it had been accepted the meeting would have recessed. I made it in the form of a motion and we voted on it before the Chief turned it down. -59- ....., ., Mrs. Woodard - All right you just made a statement here that you made a poll. Councilman Sikes - No I did not make a poll. Mrs. Woodard - I have here I have talked to some of the officers in here about their morale problems, now I am not going to ask questions, may I make a statement? Mayor - No, it has to be a question on the item. Mrs. Woodard - Mr. Kelley, I would like to ask you, if you were Chief, would you give me your statement of what you wo~ld be if you were Mr. Katez right now? This is pertaining to his state- ment of the paranoia of the Council. Officer Kelley - In the first place, there is no way I would be Chief in this City. Chief - Why, Officer Kelley? Officer Kelley - Because I wouldn't want to go through what you have had to go through with the City Council. #22 - Mayor Severance read the charge in full. Mr. Bryant - This is really a conclusion of all the previous 21 items listed here and I think to get into it in detail would be starting allover from scratch right down the line again. Mayor - I think that we have covered all of those items. Mr. Bryant - I think that we have, and I think that they speak for themselves and the records will show that this is a fact. Mayor Severance read the conclusion of the memorandum which was submitted by City Manager Bryant. Mr. Woods - No matter how the votes go, if you vote against Chief Katez, he is not a criminal, I don't feel the man needs to be personally escorted over under police guard to remove his belongings, at least give the man the courtesy, if it is necessary, of going over there say with one of the Council members. Mayor- I would concur with that. At this time we will enter- tain the Council's pleasure on the matters that have been dis- cussed this eyening? Mr. Woods - I have a number of petitions that were at my office 10 min. signed by various citizens of Edgewater, also they are petitions that were taken around, and we would like to present them to the Council. Mayor - I would have to ask Mr. Weaver for some assistance as to whether or not action can be taken in regard to the petitions, or must they be placed on the workshop. Mayor Severance read the wording of the petitions. Mr. Weaver - Obviously the petitions were turned over to the Council to correct their decision, we have not had time to re- view the petitions in regard to the signatures, you haven't had a motion to determine whether it is necessary to recognize the petitions at this time. Mayor - At this time I will ask what is the desire of the Council in regard to the charges against the Chief of Police of the City of Edgewater. -60- '-'" ""-' Councilman Sikes made a motion that the offer be extended to Mr. Katez to resign, being seconded by Councilman Dietz. Mrs. Murphy - I wonder if the whole morale problem could be based on misconception, don't these police officers and these dispatchers realize that the people of this community respect them and their Chief? I hope that they realize that they do have a good image and the Chief has a good image. I think the problem is the shortage of money and I wonder if they realize that is the basic problem? Upon roll call vote said motion CARRIED. Mayor - Now, Chief, would you accept the motion and recommendation made by the Council? Chief - Could you give me say until 10:00 in the morning to make that decision? Mayor - No, I am afraid that we have to end this thing tonight and not have it come up again. Chief - The answer is NO. Councilman Dietz made a motion that the Chief be dismissed as per the recommendation of the City Manager, with the exception of the escorting him to his office, being seconded by Councilman Lodico. Chief - I , of course everybody knew it, Mr. Dietz knew it the other night, when he tried to shake hands with me, I refused, he made the remark that" You better shake my hand, you have a hearing coming up Wednesday" I knew I was prejudged, I could have gone on and accepted this, but I was my own man and just because, I didn't kiss every time the City Manager bent over this is what.. he came here with this in mind, and Mr. Lodico.. I want to ask Mrs. Murphy, I hate to put you in this, but what were you told by Mr. Lodico when the City Manager was hired? Mrs. Murphy - We asked Mr. Lodico why he had hired a City Manager when the people had in effect shown that they didn't want a City Manager, before we ever met Mr. Bryant, you under- stand. We just asked him why he voted for a City Manager, and Mr. Lodico said something to the effect that he was anxious to have a City Manager so that he could keep his eye on the Chief. Mr. Woods - I would like to challenge Mr. Lodico to remove him- self from the Council from voting. Councilman Lodico - I have talked to several of these people years ago, about the morale, we know, and if you put that Chief back in there tonight you are going to have a worse morale problem that you ever had. I say that these people who are working with the Chief would be miserable, you have put these people on the spot by answering questions directly to the Chief. Mr. Weaver - I think that it would be proper for Mr. Woods to reintroduce the petitions now to the Council, because a motion is on the floor. Mr. Woods - The petitions were submitted to show the Council that there are many residents in the City of Edgewater who are against firing Chief Katez. I would like to have the Council consider these petitions at this time. 20 min. Councilman Dietz - These petitions were signed prior to tonights hearing, I had no idea how this hearing was going to come out, nobody did. I heard things tonight that I didnt know about. I have only been on the Council for about ten months, I didn't know all of these things were going on. I did not base by feelings -61- ... ..."., on petitions or I have sat here my decision on. when they don't this thing. anything else, I came here with an open mind, for eight hours and that is what I have based I don't know how people can sign petitions know the facts. Personalities don't enter into Mr. Woods - I do believe the so called facts that have been brought out tonight, I believe we have refuted the main charges against Mr. Katez that have been brought forward by Mr. Bryant. The big problem seems to be a morale problem and if I am not mistaken it is a problem that goes back to the lack of equipment for the Police Department. Councilman Dietz - One of the facts that has come up is the morale problem, another thing is insubordination. There are things here that I lean toward the Chief on, there are things that I lean toward the City Manager. The one thing that changed my mind tonight was the morale thing. I don't understand how you can have nine people working for you and the majority of them don't believe in you. The point was brought out that these people blame it on him, I set in on a meeting one day and these things were not brought out. Had it been brought out before perhaps we could have worked it out, but we have never been confided in by the Chief or anybody else about these problems. Mr. Woods - Certainly if the man has been generating these charges for ten months the Council should have become aware of the morale problem. We were all shocked the other night when we were handed these charges. Councilman Dietz - I was too, it came to me as very much a surprise. Chief - This morale problem is most of it, if the City Manager turned up with a morale problem within the City, would you vote to fire him? Councilman Dietz - Now we don't have the City Manager on trial, again, I didn't know about this problem at all. I am suppose to know what is going on, but I don't. It has been a secret, and this has got to stop. You haven't controlled your depart- ment or these people wouldn't get up and testify against you. Chief - Mr. Dietz, I lost control of that Police Department when Mr. Bryant came on board. You said that you haven't known what was going on, I will guarantee you, you will know what is going on after tonight. 25 min. Chief - I do want to thank the people who are here tonight for conducting themselves in an orderly manner. We will rectify this decision and we will have a town meeting. Louis Odell - I came here with an open mind also, I still feel that this is a political football and I think that all of the people who are here tonight and signed that petition very few of them would take their names off. Mr. Opel - Could you men truthfully say that you didn't have your minds made up before you came h~re tonight? It was made up before you came here to frame the man. Mr. Johnson - Mr. Bryant, were you not told to use a hands-off policy in regards to the Police Department when you came here, and where do you get the authority to bring these charges against the Chief? -62- ..... ..., Tape 9 Side A Mayor - You are out of order, Ordinance 889 and Ordinance 912 gives him the supervision and authority to conduct himself as the supervisor over the Police Department. Mr. Clinton - This man has a little over three years before he can retire and you mean to tell me that you are going to take this man's job. lie is suppose to walk on water according to this man here. You people have known this man for years and you have known this man for ten months. The Chief has done a good job, he has made mistakes, everyone makes mistakes, but you think about taking his job away from him before you vote. Councilman Lodico called for the question. Upon roll call vote said motion CARRIED. Mayor Severance voting NO. ADJOURNMENT ----- Councilman Cairnie made a motion to adjourn, being seconded by Councilman Lodico. Upon roll call vote said motion CARRIED. MINUTES TAKEN BY: Sue Blackwell Debbie Sigler Ma YO!} ~_<'-'?A!:t'i"i'/~" ",.,;:t~,~:<" .^,,-# _>..1 C-ounc iima-;--~--~~.L_",,,","~---- )j>:)i_~f; Council ATTEST: co.un 01 ~~ ~--. ;r- ft:~ /~~/' ~.,~,/ . / ,'- ,/ -' f...4. -1:.-:;-. . ~_. .;' .- ~ Councl1man ~; id ~r: g() I~~ . '^-u ' _______ ity Clerk rT/1L/ Approved this _~";'=--_day of J~ 12- -+ , , A. D. 1975 ~/:a-_. ,/ . ___~re~ ayor #tot;m ~ JiJ-~ Azcd.J~..Q {Mlf-J ~~ 07 t/tr rn~!, (~. t/JU ~~ ~yJ .~ FYi/). ~'- -63- ---q- ----- ~- ,...,., ......... .. September 25, 1975 Councilman Sikes made a motion that the tapes of this meetinq be considered the official minutes and not this typed copy, being seconded by Councilman Cairnie. Upon roll call vote said motion CARRIED. " "\, ~