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12-04-2001 - Workshop '-" ...., CITY COUNCIL OF EDGEWATER WORKSHOP DECEMBER 4, 2001 7:00 P.M. COMMUNITY CENTER MINUTES CALL TO ORDER Mayor Schmidt called the Workshop to order at 6:00 p.m. in the Community Center. ROLL CALL Mayor Donald Schmidt Councilman James Brown Councilman Dennis Vincenzi Councilwoman Harriet Rhodes Councilwoman Judith Lichter City Manager Kenneth Hooper City Attorney Scott Cookson City Clerk Susan Wadsworth Deputy City Clerk Lisa Bloomer Legal Assistant Robin Matusick Present Present Present Present Present Present Present Excused Present Present INVOCATION, PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE There was a silent invocation and pledge of allegiance to the Flag. MEETING PURPOSE The purpose of the meeting is to discuss issues related to Noise and Special Activities and Stormwater. Mayor Schmidt informed the audience there would be no public input to make it fair to both sides. They will be doing a lot of discussion between the City Attorney, City Manager and the Council. He asked everyone not to take it as if they don't want to hear from them. There will be plenty of opportunities with possibly another workshop and public hearings on this. This is going to be a hot topic and they need to make sure what they are doing, they are doing it right. They want to be fair to not only the residents but the businesses and any future growth we have. City Manager Hooper commended Mayor Schmidt for that. He feels it is their work session. They had several nights of citizen comments and public input from both sides. It is their turn and staff's turn to try and interpret what the Council wants to do. city Manager Hooper explained to the Council that what they talk about will cover the whole city. They want to come up with a system that works city-wide. We are going for grant opportunities for ampi-theaters and other issues that are City functions that will also have implications. Staff has worked on gathering a large bit of information. They have information regarding noise, zoning, and special activity permits from other cities such as Daytona, Port Orange, Ormond, and New Smyrna, cities that are in our are of Volusia County that go through this the same time we do. They also have Hillsborough and Seminole Counties, which are more urbanized and have faced some of these problems. city Manager Hooper informed Council they would see a list of questions that he put together as well as a summary of the ordinances the Council has from other cities and trying to highlight the best points. He then went through his presentation. (Attached) '-' ...." City Manager Hooper stated at this point it is up to staff to hear back from Council. He feels it starts with the very basic question of special activity permits with regard to should they be issued on an annual basis or a per event basis, and who issues them. They will get input tonight from Council. They will draft something to bring back during a Council meeting where they can have public input. They will be presenting back to Council here is what staff thought they said and what they are interested in wanting. The public will get to talk about the impacts of that. They bless that and send them away to finalize an ordinance which will become part of the Land Development Code, the Code of Ordinances or the occupational license requirements depending on what they describe, how they implement that. Councilwoman Lichter feels it seems to her what is in the Code Book is pretty good and pretty tight and is similar to other cities. No one is allowing music outside all the time. The second thing is no amplification. She has picked that up on everyone she has read and on ours. It is not amplified music when it is allowed. She feels that is important. It seems like generally managers and staff make decisions but they seemed very specific in what they wrote that they wanted to be the legislative body. Other cities say they don't want the commercial to go into the residential and be louder than what the residential is. Manufactured limit may be higher in noise but it can't go into the commercial or residential and be higher than those. She feels that seems common denominator in all of them. She feels what they have, except for the few mixups legally, the intent is there. She feels their problem is they have it in two places and not just one. City Manager Hooper stated there have been times when it was effective. When they adopted the Land Development Code in July 2000, those conditions that Councilwoman Lichter described came out of the Land Development Code and were conditioned in the Code of Ordinances. For a period of time, there were not the restraints of having a permitted condition in the B-3 that would allow outdoor entertainment that prohibited those. From July 2000 to August 2001, those were fine. In August 2001, when they updated chapter by chapter which they are going through now, put back in what had been taken out of the Land Development Code. For an eleven month period, there was not a requirement to come back for special activity permits and that they could do some of the things that were prohibited in other parts of the Code. Councilwoman Lichter asked if the tighter limitations are legal at this moment. City Manager Hooper stated yes it is and cautioned that those type limitations are throughout most cities. Most cities are just like us. They are not enforcing unless complaint driven. Councilman Vincenzi feels the codes need modification but are pretty solid. Where the confusion sets in is when noise is allowed, not so much how loud it is. The way the codes are right now it says that outside entertainment is not allowed. City Manager Hooper stated our Code today, as modified in August, outside entertainment is not allowed unless you get a special conditional permit. Councilman vincenzi stated right now noise is not a problem. However, when the special events do occur, that is when they need a good noise ordinance that is reasonable that residents and businesses can live with. He spoke about a lot of restrictions on the special event permits when they are issued. He feels for the most part our codes are fairly good. There are a few places where they could be polished up and tightened up and made a little more clearer as far as intent and interpretation. Councilwoman Rhodes feels our codes are adequate, it is the enforcement at the special events. Page -2- Council Workshop December 4, 2001 '-" ,." Councilwoman Lichter feels if you end up with a code problem and you have a legal problem and people not abiding by what is written, she thinks it is more tangible to have a machine of some type, even if you don't always use it, then for some one to have to make a judgement call standing a certain distance away. Everybody hears a little different and is bothered a little differently. She spoke about having a mechanism now in our codes. She feels that should be put in there. Councilwoman Rhodes feels it is too subjective when you could have anyone of ten people standing there listening to the noise and deciding whether it is a nuisance or not. She feels it needs to be specific. City Manager Hooper stated that sounds good but in reality it doesn't work nearly that well. You still have the problems that come up with who reads, are they certified and when was it calibrated. But it does become easier because you have a number in front of you. City Attorney Cookson stated one of the other issues with a decibel meter is is each Police Officer going to have one, is each Code Enforcement Officer going to have one. If there is a complaint does the Police Officer have to track down the decibel meter. If that was removed, then it would be easier to enforce the standards rather than having to find the piece of equipment. You want to be able to enforce it without that piece of equipment. Councilwoman Rhodes spoke about doing it like radar. When Police Officers run radar they have to visually determine that car is over the speed limit and then they can point the radar at it. Why can't you have an officer, or whoever is going to enforce this, audibly decide if the music is too loud and get the decibel meter from the police station, where it stays all the time, and test it. city Attorney Cookson stated he thinks that is the way it would have to be but without that meter the Police Officer couldn't do anything right there on the spot. It is certainly less subjective than anyone listening to the noise but it doesn't remove all subjectivity. Police Officers are challenged all the time on the radar guns. Councilwoman Lichter feels when you have Police Officers outside directing traffic and they are hired by any establishment, they aren't there for that purpose. They are there to direct the traffic and are paid by the business establishment. There has to be a clearly defined method of knowing who to call and who is going to respond. She feels they need something. City Manager Hooper asked if the majority of the Council is interested in a number methodology, that is a start. That at least tells him what he is looking at. He feels they need to look at what others have done. By the time it gets to the point you are ready to shut down a business, some of the top management officials of the City will be there when that occurs. Mayor Schmidt stated our Chief has a pretty extensive history with noise meters to know how they work. If they were to do a meter, do they have to go by OSHA's rules or are they able to set their own parameters. City Attorney Cookson stated absolutely. In other cities that use the meter, they each have their own levels and own standards in testing that noise. City Manager Hooper stated they can adopt ranges. They are setting community standards when you do that. The OSHA standards really only apply to the work force that works there. The meters aren't horribly expensive. They cost $500. You would send someone to a class to learn how to use the meter and they become certified. Page -3- Council Workshop December 4, 2001 '-" 'WI' City Manager Hooper stated when they issue permits, it says it can be revoked because of certain issues. All of those are methods that are in place and have been used. If that is a comfort for Council to do, they can certainly do that. They have gotten price quotes on them and Fire Chief Barlow has investigated quite a bit of detail as to ordering one and they have stopped short waiting on the outcome of tonight. Councilwoman Rhodes feels when they provide Special Event Permits, they should supply a copy of the Codes that pertain to that event. City Manager Hooper stated generally they are. Mayor Schmidt asked if they all agreed to look into the meter issue. Council agreed. Councilwoman Lichter stated she would like to be able to agree that outside music because she wants to see what B-3 is. She wants to be very clear that the way it is now, outdoor music can be only by special permit. City Manager Hooper stated the Land Development Code today says any outside entertainment in a restaurant or a bar has to have a special conditional permit. That went into effect in August of this year. To him that is a special exception. They would have to make application and go through the process and wind up in front of the Planning and Zoning Board who grants special application. To him that is a year long permit that says you are entitled to and then you fill in the blanks. You can have so many events with an outside entertainment. It is not done as one time and then you come back each time. Councilwoman Lichter asked why it is Planning and Zoning when in the past there was a terminology that in this City they felt the Council should decide and she thought they decided that staff should decide but it wasn't Planning and Zoning. Councilwoman Rhodes stated they have to have a special permit as opposed to a conditional use permit. Councilwoman Lichter stated if there is no outside music and you are granting it, isn't that a special exception. City Manager Hooper stated a special exception is a conditional use that the Planning & Zoning Board grants. Council grants special activity permits. He spoke about instances when a special activity permit is issued. He thinks, once the parameter they can be issued is defined, they don't need to come back to Council every time. He strongly recommends they don't do that. Councilman Vincenzi stated he didn't agree. He would like to see any special event. Under Conditional Use Permits in Article IX, they are talking about that now as far as who gets the application and who does the final approval. The same with the Special Event Permits. He feels those types of things have to come back to Council. The Conditional Use Permits don't occur that often. The Council can look at each one individually. He feels ultimately they should make the decision because they represent the people of the city. Special Event Permits should be the same way. The Code spells out exactly what a Special Event is, how long it can be, and how many times a year it can be. There is not specifications as far as noise level but that should be covered under one of the other codes that they have to develop. He feels they should come back before the Council too and that is where they have to face public opinion. City Manager Hooper stated when he is advising the Council that he doesn't think that is in their best interest, what he is describing is that they set down the conditions in which those are issued. Once the conditions are met, they become pretty standard. Page -4- Council Workshop December 4, 2001 ~ ~ Councilman Vincenzi feels if they meet the conditions in the codes that is fine. Some businesses want special events more than twice a year. As long as staff sticks to the codes, he would consider not having it come back to Council but he would have to know that whatever the codes say, that is what is going to be abided by. city Manager Hooper stated once you list all those conditions, those are in place. Councilman Brown feels they need to come up with a specific number of days and a specific number of hours that they can be there. He feels they can work that out amongst them. Councilman Vincenzi stated they have that now but it's not working. City Manager Hooper commented on why he feels it isn't working. City Manager Hooper informed Council how he envisions this working. Councilwoman Lichter asked what happens if you are bad three times. City Manager Hooper explained the permit has the ability to be revoked if the standards in the code are not being followed, which is what they have in the permits right now. Councilwoman Lichter stated that is from an established business that has been in existence for a period of time verses the carnival. City Manager Hooper stated the carnival comes in one time. He probably isn't looking for a conditional use. He is looking for a special Activity Permit. A special Exception and conditional use is not uncommon for the kinds of outdoor activities they are talking about. Councilwoman Lichter stated there are rules and regulations when the carnival comes in. city Manager Hooper stated you adopt a noise ordinance that is across the City. When he comes in for a special conditional use permit, you grant that to him with conditions. Councilwoman Lichter asked if one will automatically be given because one down the road was given even if there are different circumstances. City Manager Hooper stated they are different, that is why it is a conditional use permit. You are seeing how it impacts the area. City Attorney Cookson stated you would have to follow whatever the standards were. If they were within those standards they would almost be entitled to have the conditional use permit but certainly those standards can be drawn up and Planning & Zoning would have to look at each property as how that fits with the standards established. Councilwoman Lichter stated certain establishments of business are in now under conditions that maybe aren't ideal in their proximity to residential. It might be that if a new place was coming in, they would be more stringent. City Attorney Cookson stated they would have to be careful doing that because you run the risk of denying one here under the same circumstances as you granted one over there. If you were establishing standards that apply to one property and different standards that apply to another property but the second property had these built in barriers that cut down the noise, why would that second property come under more restrictive numbers than the first one. Councilwoman Rhodes stated she thought she was talking about a progression of ordinances over time that what happened twenty years ago does not happen anymore. Councilwoman Lichter stated a buffer was not in existence when some of these establishments were put in and they want to give them the benefit of the doubt but they can't be more stringent than what their rules call for. Page -5- Council Workshop December 4, 2001 '-" "WI City Manager Hooper stated as progress goes and they develop new rules, they will affect everybody. As long as everybody is impacted. As the city develops and they have more intensity and people are living closer together, they may want less noise at the property line. Councilman Vincenzi still disagrees with regard to who should approve it. He feels they should end up approving it and not Planning and Zoning. Mayor Schmidt stated he doesn't want to see everyone. Councilwoman Rhodes and Councilwoman Lichter didn't want to either. Councilwoman Rhodes stated conditional use permits maybe but not special event permits. Mayor Schmidt stated he feels there comes a point where you have to rely on staff a little bit. There will be special events that anybody can look at and go yeah, we need to talk about this one and think about this one a little bit. He feels to bring it in front of Council will delay the process and he doesn't feel they need it for everything. He feels they are going to learn as they go on some of them. city Manager Hooper stated all of it is appealable to the Council. Councilman Vincenzi asked how many conditional use permits are issued in a year. Mr. Lear informed him around twenty. In Article III, Table 3, they have the matrix for all uses. Councilman Vincenzi stated some are going to be controversial and some are going to be non-controversial. Councilwoman Rhodes suggested they receive copies of the initial application and if they have issues they can let Planning & Zoning know or City Manager Hooper know and he can follow up on it. Councilwoman Rhodes stated with conditional use permits, a letter is sent to everybody around that property. If anybody has any issues with it, they will come to Planning & zoning over that. City Manager Hooper stated that is correct. Councilwoman Lichter asked if once they are finished with this subject, if they should start at the beginning. In everything they were given they are only talking about Managers doing it and why is Planning & Zoning kicking in. City Manager Hooper stated when it says Managers do it, they don't do it. Staff does it. Mayor Schmidt asked to go back to the first question. Do you want Outdoor Entertainment to have to obtain a Special Permit? It was the consensus of Council that they should obtain a Special Permit. There was a discussion regarding if it should be annually, over a six month period or per event. Councilwoman Rhodes questioned if they could do both. Some people may just want one event. City Manager Hooper stated he is describing someone that wants to do a certain number per year. Councilwoman Lichter asked why the charities that exist in New Smyrna come to Edgewater to stage their affair. City Manager Hooper stated they have an ordinance that prohibits total outdoor activity. Mayor Schmidt stated he doesn't want to see a conditional permit every time but he wondered if a year long is too long especially starting in the conditions that they are. He was thinking more six months. Councilwoman Rhodes suggested six months for like three years and if everything had gone well for three years, they could go to an annual. City Manager Hooper stated there are some places that grants its special exceptions for a six month period. There is precedence is out there for the ability to do that. Page -6- Council Workshop December 4, 2001 '-" ~ Councilwoman Rhodes feels if they decided they are going to allow outdoor entertainment, it would be easier for the business to have to do it once every six months for three years and once a year thereafter. As long as they are conforming to the codes, the Council shouldn't have issue with it anyway. If they are going to allow it to happen, they should make it as easy on them as they can as far as the process goes to make it happen. City Manager Hooper stated what she is really saying is they will entertain a permit that is for a six month period. Councilman Vincenzi asked if they are talking about allowing people to have outdoor entertainment, the kind of events that attract huge crowds. City Manager Hooper stated he is talking about those that anybody wanted to do would have to come in with a conditional use permit that tells how many times and under what conditions they would have those over a six month period. Councilman Vincenzi doesn't like it. Councilwoman Rhodes asked what an alternative would be. Councilman Vincenzi felt outdoor entertainment should not be allowed except by a special permit, not a conditional use permit. City Manager Hooper stated that puts them back to each event coming before Council. Councilman Vincenzi stated there are other conditional uses for different businesses. They are talking about outside entertainment which has potentially different effects on a neighborhood. If they are talking about outdoor entertainment and conditional uses of that, he doesn't want to see conditional uses for that purpose. It should be a special event. Councilwoman Rhodes stated conditional use means they set the conditions for the use. Now they are deciding what kind of special permit they are going to use to allow it. Once you decide you are going to allow outdoor entertainment, what is the point of making it difficult to do it. If you don't want outdoor entertainment, they need to set that and be done. Councilman Vincenzi stated the way the codes are now it is not allowed except by a special event permit and you can get two per year. City Manager Hooper stated the language is conditional use in the Code. Councilman Vincenzi stated he understands that but doesn't want to see things get out of hand. He wants to avoid problems before they start. city Manager Hooper stated he thinks they are doing that tonight and through the development of this. They are setting the conditions on how that is going to work. Councilwoman Rhodes stated you have to jump through more hoops to get a conditional use permit than you do a Special Activity permit. Councilman Vincenzi stated he would go for conditional uses depending on the restrictions they discuss. It was the consensus of Council to go with a six month time period. Councilwoman Lichter asked if this will be more costly for them to come in for a permit twice than once. Isn't the price going to have to be adjusted? Councilwoman Lichter stated she isn't adverse to the six month limit but she feels the money has to be adjusted so they don't have to pay double. Mayor Schmidt agreed with adjusting it some. City Manager Hooper stated probably the dollar amount of the permit is an insignificant amount. He thinks the cost of the permit is the easiest part of the whole deal. Page -7- Council Workshop December 4, 2001 ~ ...." Councilwoman Lichter wants them to take the cost into consideration. Councilwoman Rhodes suggested after three years of having one every six months then it could be made annually. City Manager Hooper spoke about converting it like the water bills with regard to after so many payments on time, you get the deposit back. City Attorney Cookson stated he likes the idea of six months and then converting it to annual after three years. He thinks the real question City Manager Hooper raised is how many activities fit within a six month period. Councilwoman Rhodes asked if they need to address occupational licenses. She doesn't think they want anything with regard to this on the occupational license. Mayor Schmidt asked if everyone has certain ideas in their mind on numbers. He suggested they each give their recommendations. Councilman Brown stated he is looking at eight to ten one-day events in a six month time period. Bike Week and Biketoberfest would not included. It was determined, that per ordinance, Bike Week is ten days and Biketoberfest is ten days. Councilman Vincenzi likes the codes the way they are now, one event per six months, two per year, which includes Bike Week and Biketoberfest. Councilwoman Rhodes suggested calling it an event not to exceed two weeks and she would do it by event. If you can have two events per year, you can have two events that last no longer than two weeks each. Mayor Schmidt stated so you could have Biketoberfest and Bike Week and that would be it. Councilwoman Rhodes stated she would define an event as to be no longer than two weeks. In the conditional use permit, they have to let you know how long the event will be. Mayor Schmidt doesn't want to touch the two weeks. The two weeks are a given with the stipulations, the hours and those different things. He suggested eight for every six months. Councilwoman Rhodes suggested three events for six months not to exceed two weeks. city Manager Hooper stated Councilwoman Rhodes' suggestion is events with a time period. The rest of the Council he thought was talking of days. Councilwoman Rhodes stated if you are talking about days, then you would be talking about 24 event days per year because the rest of the Council didn't want to touch Bike Week or Biketoberfest. In days that would be 21 days every six months. Mayor Schmidt stated then you have to decide if you are going to list that as 21 days or three events. Councilwoman Rhodes stated what she is saying is you can have three events in six months and each event can not be longer than two weeks. City Manager Hooper stated so the 21 days does not include Biketoberfest and Bike Week, they are already in the 21 days. Councilwoman Rhodes stated yes. Hers is six events per year. She doesn't feel you can break it down into days for Bike Week and days for Biketoberfest because there are a lot of special events that go on in the City that have nothing to do with Bike Week or Biketoberfest. Page -8- Council Workshop December 4, 2001 "-' ....., Mayor Schmidt stated he is looking at two weeks plus eight other events. Those eight events could be a day or two days depending on the event but they aren't eight more Bike Weeks. He is conditioned that all the events that happen around here are on the weekend. City Attorney Cookson stated he thinks what Mayor Schmidt is trying to say is you can have two events each six months and each event lasts up to two weeks and you could have two two week events and then separate one day events. You could have two long events each six months and four or five one day events on top of that. Councilwoman Rhodes feels they are making it too complicated. Councilwoman Rhode suggested three weeks every six months which would be six weeks per year. Councilman Brown stated they could split it up however they want. Councilwoman Lichter stated you would know what you would be facing at the beginning of the six month period. Councilwoman Rhodes stated she would limit the number of events and limit the length of time those events could be. Councilman Vincenzi stated he is in favor of that too. Mayor Schmidt feels Councilwoman Rhodes' suggestion is cutting the businessman because they would be shorting themselves if their events are only one day events. He feels if they can only have two more events, they are going to try and milk it for as long as they can to get their two weeks out of it and then you are going to cause headaches on the other side. Councilwoman Rhodes then suggested three weeks for six months. Councilwoman Lichter feels many of these will only be one day. She suggested giving at least what they've got, those two events as a start. That would be a given and see how many two day things in six months they want to put in. Councilman Brown stated he said eight days plus Bike Week and Biketoberfest. Councilwoman Lichter stated she suggested six to eight in the beginning. Councilwoman Rhodes has a problem with all of this being around Biketoberfest and Bike Week. That isn't the only thing that goes on in this town and actually only one business is serious affected by Biketoberfest and Bike Week. This needs to be across the board for every entity in this town. City Manager Hooper asked the Council to keep in mind they are defining the upper limits. Councilwoman Rhodes doesn't feel they are going to ask for two weeks if they don't need two weeks. Councilwoman Lichter stated they won't want to pay the money. City Manager Hooper stated what he thinks he is hearing the Council say is a number of days. They are sounding like they are saying two to three weeks every six months except for Councilman Vincenzi. Somewhere between 14 and 21 days. Mayor Schmidt stated he could handle the three weeks every six months but he can't handle saying three events in six months. Councilman Brown doesn't see how that will work for the City when we get the ampitheater. We will be under the same restrictions. Councilwoman Lichter stated the City might impose different requirements on public property. Page -9- Council Workshop December 4, 2001 '-" ,..,., City Manager Hooper stated months is what four of the Vincenzi asked if they are of seven days each or they Councilman Vincenzi stated 21 days of outdoor activity for six Council is saying. Councilman saying someone can have three events can have 21 events at one day a piece. he couldn't do that. Councilwoman Rhodes stated she doesn't know that she likes the concept either. 21 special events. city Manager Hooper stated 21 days of operation. It could be one event 21 days long. Councilwoman Rhodes stated or it could be somebody with an outdoor band 21 Saturday's in a row. city Manager Hooper stated that is what he is trying to put into perspective. That is what they are saying but he isn't sure that is what they mean. Councilman Vincenzi stated he still likes the concept of an event. You have stated how long the event can be and how many events they can have in six months, not how many days they can do events. Right now it is one event every six months up to ten days. Councilman Brown stated eight events gives them one a month plus two to cover Bike Week and Biketoberfest. City Attorney Cookson stated if you had events two of those events could be up to a week long or ten days long. Councilwoman Rhodes asked if they could make it six events instead of eight, which is one a month. Councilman Brown stated he was covering Bike Week and Biketoberfest. Councilwoman Rhodes stated that is five more than they have now. Councilman Brown stated he would agree with six. Mayor Schmidt stated he had eight. City Manager Hooper stated six to eight events for a six month period. An event is what? Councilwoman Lichter stated two of them can be of certain duration. The rest are one day events. Councilman Brown stated an event could be no more than two days. Councilwoman Rhodes suggested having one event of a two week's duration and the rest have to be no longer than two days. Councilman vincenzi asked how many in six months. Councilwoman Rhodes stated six or eight. City Manager Hooper likes the idea of days. Councilwoman Rhodes suggested 21 days. City Manager Hooper stated 21 days can be given and they can use that during Bike Week and can break it up and they have to come in and tell you that in order to get the six month permit. The six month permit keeps them from coming back every time. If they aren't going to want to come back every time, they will have to break it up according to days for a six month period. Councilwoman Rhodes suggested 21 days with no event longer than 10 days. Mayor Schmidt stated not two consecutive ten day events. Councilwoman Lichter stated not twenty altogether. Councilwoman Rhodes stated they can't do ten days and then ten days. Councilman Vincenzi stated you have 21 days in six months. He is looking at the worse possible case. In six months, twenty-four weeks, potentially someone can have one event a week just about. If they wanted to have outdoor entertainment every Saturday night for six months they could do that. Councilwoman Rhodes stated yes but they would have to get the permit. Councilwoman Lichter stated and they will set conditions. Page -10- Council Workshop December 4, 2001 ~ ...." Councilman vincenzi stated he wants to see what those conditions are. City Manager Hooper stated they are going to make those as they go through. If they are talking of 21 days with no event longer than ten days, the only missing piece is the Council needs to tell him between those ten days what is the closest gap they will allow. Councilwoman Lichter feels there should be a week between at least. Councilwoman Rhodes suggested 21 days with no more than two weeks a month. Mayor Schmidt suggested 21 days with no more than two or three events a month. City Attorney Cookson stated they could still run consecutively if one was at the end of the month and the other was at the beginning of the month. Mayor Schmidt suggested no longer than 10 days and no closer together than ten days. Councilman Vincenzi asked City Manager Hooper to repeat it back. City Manager Hooper stated a total of 21 days for every six months, no event over 10 days and no two events closer than ten days. Councilman Vincenzi stated he doesn't like it but if everybody is in agreement, he will compromise. He asked if they are going to talk about noise levels. City Manager Hooper informed him yes. There was a fifteen minute recess at this time. The meeting recessed at 7:45 and reconvened at 8:00 p.m. Councilwoman Rhodes felt 42 days of events is too much. Councilman Vincenzi stated that is what they have been talking about and that is what he has been saying is it is way too much but nobody wants to listen. Mayor Schmidt stated someone said they can't just think about Bike Week and Biketoberfest, which is what brought them here. He feels if they try to word this and produce it to where it is not addressing those two periods, they have nothing. Councilwoman Rhodes stated right now they have 17 day permits at this point in time. One for ten days and one for seven days. They have now more than doubled that. Why does it need to be more than double to accommodate Bike Week and Biketoberfest? That is 42 days a year. Right now, under the codes they are allowing 17 days a year. Councilwoman Lichter stated they are interpreting the codes different because there is music going on outside much more often than that. There is music going on because of a particular interpretation of the codes. City Manager Hooper stated he thinks they have had a couple of complaints about united We Stand and the other events. Councilwoman Lichter asked why she is getting called over at Pelican Cove West. It wasn't either one of those weekends. city Manager Hooper stated but it is not every weekend. The two bike events have occurred and then they had a United We Stand event and then a concert. He knows of those events. Councilwoman Rhodes stated the codes allow for two. They are discussing at this point whether the codes are enforced or not. What we are saying is this is what the codes allow. They are intending to rewrite the codes to make it forty-two days when right now it is twenty. Page -11- Council Workshop December 4, 2001 '-" ...", Councilman Vincenzi stated the difference now is it is twenty days split up into two events. Councilwoman Rhodes stated twenty days per year, it doesn't matter how many events. Mayor Schmidt stated it is addressed as two ten-day events. City Manager Hooper stated that is what you have right now. Councilman Vincenzi stated he doesn't want to move backwards. He wants to leave it the way it is but improve upon it. Councilwoman Lichter stated if you look at it as helping businesses to exist and prosper then they aren't looking backwards. If they are thinking in terms of neighbors being bothered they have to make conditions so that doesn't happen. She feels if they pull things tight enough and give them more opportunity for things they could at least exist. Councilman vincenzi doesn't think it is right to increase the number of events that can potentially occur. Mayor Schmidt stated the trouble they are having and half the reason they are here is because of extra events that are wanting to be done and going on now that are causing people to be upset. They have to find the room between the two weeks that they can theoretically have now and the ability for them to do a few more events. Councilman Vincenzi stated with two events a year, people, even though they don't like it can accept it. If it is 42 times a year, people aren't going to accept it. Councilman Brown suggested they have six days every six months. One ten day event and 5 one day events. Councilman Vincenzi feels the problem they are running into is they have business interest which are a true concern and they have residential interest which is another true concern and they have to find some balance between the two. He feels increasing the number of events leaves the door open for too many problems. Councilman Brown and Mayor Schmidt stated one event per month. Councilwoman Lichter stated if you have the qualifications in place properly, the music from a commercial enterprise can not exceed what is accepted decibel points in a residential. Councilwoman Rhodes stated music isn't the only issue in a special event. You have traffic, trash and other things. The more events you have the more of that you are going to have. She stated she couldn't even see a business wanting to have 42days of events in a year. Councilwoman Lichter stated in some of the other cities they found two other blocks of time other than Bike Week and Biketoberfest. Ms. Landreville stated Race Week and Spring Break. Councilwoman Rhodes suggested every six months, 1 ten-day event and no more than 3 two-day events, which would be 2 ten-day events a year and 6 two-day events which is 32 days a year. Mayor Schmidt stated he liked Councilman Brown's. Councilman Brown stated 1 ten-day event and five one-day events. City Manager Hooper stated that is a reasonable compromise to start. He suggested they work through the rest. Councilwoman Rhodes asked if the five day events could be consecutive so if somebody wanted to have a weekend event, so that could occur. Councilman Brown stated you could combine two of the five days together to make a weekend. Page -12- Council Workshop December 4, 2001 '-' ...., Councilman Brown asked if it would be possible to write it in that way. City Manager Hooper stated sure. Councilman Vincenzi stated he does not agree with that. Councilwoman Rhodes stated now they are at 30 days as opposed to twenty before so they have added ten more days and she feels that is a reasonable compromise. Councilman Vincenzi stated the most he will go for is two events in a six month period. Four a year. Right now it is two a year so four a year is doubling it. The Council moved on to Hours of Events. Councilwoman Lichter liked the general standards for Port Orange such as the volume of the noise, the intensity of the noise, whether the nature of the noise is unusual. City Manager Hooper asked if there is consensus that the Council likes that and asked if they want him to study that and come back with a modification of that that he thinks fits us pretty good. From a staff point they think that is the most reliable and answers the questions the best. Mayor Schmidt asked who had times in mind. He suggested 10 p.m. on Friday and Saturdays. Councilman Brown suggested no later than 8 p.m. on Sundays. Mayor Schmidt stated he had 6 p.m. on Sundays, which he feels is more than reasonable. Councilman Brown stated he would go for 6 p.m. on Sundays. Mayor Schmidt stated he didn't have anything written for weekdays. Councilwoman Lichter stated you are talking commercial and questioned if they really want to go from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. City Manager Hooper stated he is talking about an outdoor activity closing down, ceasing to operate. Councilwoman Lichter stated she wanted to know when they can start. Councilwoman Rhodes stated 7 a.m. Councilwoman Lichter doesn't think anybody will start that early. Mayor Schmidt stated isn't 7 a.m. the standard of noise in life. City Manager Hooper stated what the Council is describing is going to be helpful. They are telling him what time they want outdoor noise activity. He thinks they can deal with the rest of the stuff. Councilman Vincenzi stated when you issue a special permit right now what is it. city Manager Hooper stated they have been 8 o'clock and ten o'clock depending on the day of the week. Councilwoman Rhodes suggested 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. every day. Mayor Schmidt asked if that goes back and limits the guy that drives a lawn mower. City Manager Hooper stated those kinds of things they can deal with off of the chart. Councilwoman Rhodes stated she would do 10 a.m. to 6 p.m. on Sunday. City Manager Hooper stated so close down at 10 p.m. on Friday and Saturday and 6 p.m. on Sunday and 8 p.m. on weekdays for outdoor entertainment. It was the consensus of Council to go with these hours. The Council then discussed if events are to be held only on certain days. Mayor Schmidt feels they don't need to do that since they limited Sunday to 6 p.m. Councilwoman Rhodes agreed. Mayor Schmidt asked about outdoor cooking, outdoor eating and outdoor vending. City Manager Hooper informed him that is not their issue. Page -13- Council Workshop December 4, 2001 -.. ...., Mayor Schmidt asked if vending is our issue. When it comes to certain things the Health Department will step in but is it in their occupational license where they clarify it and say yes, they have outdoor capabilities or is it just strictly here is your license, now it is up to the Health Department. City Manager Hooper suggested that has not been a problem and they haven't had a single complaint. Councilwoman Rhodes asked if they should address it before it is a problem. Councilwoman Lichter stated it said it should be related to the business inside in all of those cities. Mayor Schmidt stated they have heard from one person that brought up the topic of eating outside when their license doesn't say they can. He asked if that is something they need to clarify in the occupational application to make sure the Health Department clarifies that. His occupational license doesn't say inside or outside but he has tables with room for 32 people to sit outside. City Manager Hooper stated generally that is part of zoning for fast food and part of zoning for a restaurant. He hasn't seen this as an issue. with an occupational license we require they submit their permit to us from the Health Department. If there is an issue, they are the ones to enforce it. Mayor Schmidt stated he wants to make sure they are all comfortable. He feels if they satisfy one portion of something that something else is going to come up. city Manager Hooper stated he is worried about them taking on an issue that somebody else has the authority to do. city Manager Hooper agreed to look at that some more with Attorney Cookson. City Attorney Cookson stated he thinks outdoor cooking and eating outside is not the City's responsibility to regulate. The only issue would be setting up tables and chairs on public right-of-way. their own private property, that is between them and Department. City that are we If it is on the Health Councilwoman Rhodes feels they should set it up prior to getting a complaint. Councilwoman Lichter stated they are saying whatever is sold outside for vendors must be related to the business one way or the other. City Manager Hooper explained this was originally started in Daytona Beach and others dealing more with tattoos. Councilwoman Rhodes spoke about transient vendors that come in that compete with the businesses that are paying taxes all year long. City Attorney Cookson stated this will apply to everything, not just bars and restaurants. city Manager Hooper feels on the noise they have described they are interested in a blend between what is plainly audible and what with the decibel meter would back that up. city Manager Hooper feels they have adopted rules. This now will follow how they are enforced. They have told him the hours of operation, the number of events, this table, and the hours in which they must shut down. At that point they have all the parameters and conditions to issue a permit that would be for a period of time and have a number of events and would tell anybody coming in here is what to expect. Councilwoman Lichter feels in terms of enforcement, they should make a statement in terms of Police or a designated Police and Code Enforcement and whether you need one or two on the premises or the backup. City Manager Hooper stated there will be. Page -14- Council Workshop December 4, 2001 ~ ..." Mayor Schmidt spoke about the cultural events and the ampitheater and if now is the time they are putting it all together to talk to Mr. Corder. He's got to have thoughts. Councilwoman Lichter feels maybe they should pullout of the cities those things that are related to city events. She thinks she needs a time to go back and look through each one and what it said about city events. Generally cities can break their own codes. She doesn't want to do that but she wants the City to be a special entity. There is a certain broadness to a city having an activity. She is going to go back and pullout what pertains to the city. Councilwoman Rhodes stated maybe they could make a policy that the City should follow the same rules as everybody else. city Attorney Cookson stated they are talking about a conditional use permit and the City would not apply for a conditional use permit. He feels what they have discussed only applies to private individuals. Councilwoman Rhodes stated the conditional use permit does not get rid of the special event permit. City Manager Hooper informed her that is correct. Councilwoman Rhodes asked if there is going to be criteria for who has to have the conditional use permit or can you apply for a special event or conditional use, whichever happens to suit your needs at the time. City Manager Hooper explained the way they are going to work it, divide it up and define it is that special activity permits are when you are having the activity that exceeds your ability to do parking and the other things they have described. The conditional use permit is geared around noise as it has been defined tonight. An outdoor entertainment event would have a conditional use permit. City Attorney Cookson stated so you may have a conditional use permit but you are putting on an event that also requires a special activity permit because you don't have adequate parking or facilities. Legal Assistant Matusick stated and Bike Week will be one of those. Councilwoman Rhodes asked if they have to have both. City Manager Hooper stated no. Legal Assistant Matusick stated they have to comply with all the requirements of this special activity permit along with the conditional use permit. Councilwoman Rhodes feels once they have set up the criteria, they should make it as easy and convenient as possible for businesses to acquire these permits. As long as they are following the criteria, they shouldn't be a nuisance to anybody else. There should be no reason that we are impeding their ability to do business in a timely fashion. City Manager Hooper explained he thinks that is what they are headed for by trying it for six months to see how it works. Councilman Vincenzi stated people are more than irritated, they are mad. They are disturbing their peace and sometimes their health and they have rights just like anybody else. city Manager Hooper stated they are trying to find that balance. City Manager Hooper stated Council has outlined something that staff is going to put together. He would like to do another work session. He would like to have this put together and bring it back in January. He feels they should have one more input session with just Council to look at it and give them time to see it before they talk about it that night. Have one more touch up and put it in ordinance format and look for adoption in late January. Page -15- Council Workshop December 4, 2001 ..... .", City Manager Hooper made a staff presentation regarding stormwater. We have had a 100 year storm event. It is supposed to happen once every 100 years. We have had three of those in the last four years. We have had a tremendous amount of water. There have also been some droughts that have been equally as bad. We have had some tough weather and a lot of problems. In Florida Shores it was retrofit, do the best you can with what you've got. with the retention ponds, the storm system is geared to handle about a ten year storm event. When it exceeds that ten year event, there is going to be street and yard flooding and it gets into the 25 and 100 year storm event where you have structure flooding. All of our levels of service we have tried to adopt have been protection of property. He is not here to tell the Council we can afford to do anything that is going to keep street flooding from occurring or even some yard flooding to occur. They geared their money towards taking care of structures. The last storm event eight families had to be moved out of houses. Before that they were in the three to four family range. We have done a Master Plan that is supposed to be done in a month that has stormwater improvements throughout the city and that will help. There are three properties that have been identified that have had chronic flooding that can't be fixed without spending four to five times the value of the property. Sometimes it is easier to buy the property than fix the problem. He has three he wants to address, get an appraisal on and come back and talk to Council about. One is on Cheeta. It is a property that is a single family with two attached rentals. It is priced somewhere in the $90,000 to $100,000 range. There are two others in the $30,000 range, one on Connecticut and one on India Palm Drive. He wants to talk to the owners about an interest on their part of selling the property. There are ways the City can get money from FEMA and the Water Management District to help flood proof areas, buy property that is chronic flooding. They can get some positive grants out of being able to take some of these areas, possibly, and use them as stormwater retention. City Manager Hooper asked Council if they had any problem with looking into buying those, approaching those folks. The total sum cost is something less than $200,000 to purchase those. We would be seeking money from FEMA, the county and the Water Management District and usually those are matched. Councilwoman Rhodes asked if they would turn those into retention areas. City Manager Hooper stated yes. The best thing to do is a quality pond, meaning it treats the water before it runs off. Councilwoman Lichter asked how old the structures are. City Manager Hooper stated in the 15 year range. Councilwoman Lichter stated so fifteen years ago somebody issued a permit to build a house in the middle of Lake Erie. City Manager Hooper stated it can be that or it can be changed conditions. He spoke about other things being build and the canals rising much quicker than it ever did before. It was either built too low or other improvements around have caused some of those issues to occur. If they don't do something FEMA is going to quit paying. Councilwoman Lichter asked about moving the structures. city Manager Hooper informed her these can't. Councilman Brown asked about the piece of property on US #1 in front of McAllister's. That place was totally under water. City Manager Hooper stated he is looking for residential first. If it is a commercial issue, it is on his list but it is not first on his list. There was a brief discussion regarding Nationwide Medical on US #1. Councilwoman Lichter feels they have some maintenance problems and need to talk about preventive maintenance. Page -16- Council Workshop December 4, 2001 ....... ...",; Councilwoman Rhodes stated she doesn't think Florida Shores concerns her as much as Riverside Drive. City Manager Hooper stated on Riverside it is road flooding. Councilwoman Rhodes stated it was up in the yards too. city Manager Hooper stated he is sympathetic to yards but homes are first. Councilwoman Lichter asked if they are saying okay to looking into the concept of buying it. City Manager Hooper stated these property owners want to hear from him that the City is interested in getting them appraised and if a purchase sale agreement and price can be reached that we are interested in facilitating that. He recommended that is what they tell him to do. It was the consensus of Council for City Manager Hooper to pursue this. ADJOURNMENT There being no further business to discuss, Mayor Schmidt adjourned the meeting. The meeting adjourned at 8:42 p.m. Minutes submitted by: Lisa Bloomer Page -17- Council Workshop December 4, 2001 Do y ant Outdoor Entertaimme o have to obtain a Special • Annual • Per Event • Occupational License rmit? Limits on n ber of 0' Outdoor Entertainme events � •Per Year • Per Quarter • Per Month C Hours of--Events? • Fixed • Variable per event • Variable depending on day of week Measurem t of Impact on Adjacent erty Traffic - - number of spaces, trips • Noise - - nuisance - as heard by City official - technical - decibel meter • Others - - Outdoor cooking - Outdoor eating - Outdoor vending E n f o rc-em e n t � •Codes —Code Enforcement • Ordinances —Noise Ordinance • Zoning Overlay — Protective Residen Areas � Conditional Uses — Special Exception fro' Planning &Zoning • Occupational Licenses - Conditions waiver from noise restrictions for"" al events which occur infrequently and reasonably may not meet the noise standards. This section also requires a � minimum of 15 -day notification to registered neighborhood organizations within aone -mile radius of the event. E NOISE ORDI CE CONT'D of sight fifty or more feet, however words or phrases need not be discernible and said sound shall include bass reverberation." NOISE ORDI CE CONT'D are created upon a finding that the subs area contains a land use which is sensiti � to or subject to adverse reactions from noise. NOISE ORDI CE CONT'D � The City of New Smyrna Beac'%Wdinance � cannot be plainly audible while standing within the boundary limits of an adjacent c neighboring property zoned for residential use. NOISE ORDI CE CONT'D • The City of Ormond Beach als es the "plainly audible" terminology wit stipulation that the sound cannot be audible more than 100 feet from its so NOISE ORDI CE CONT'D sound levels. E NOISE ORDI CE CONT'D • Seminole County's ordinance specific section prohibiting intents repeated creation of a noise disturb. through the acceleration, turning or stopping of a motor vehicle. ins a R The City of Cocoa requires pe application to be made prior to any advertisement of the proposed event. SPECIA---LACTIVITIES specific requirement but refers to a "st meeting" attended by the sponsor /promo special event and the City's Event Coordin At this meeting, the event sponsor /promoter be required to provide written notification to property owners not normally impacted by speci events located within 1000 feet of where the eve is to occur. 0 SPECI PERMITS CTIVITIES • The City of Daytona Beach NT'D definitions for each of the followin private event, community event, to event and major event period. ar SPECIALACTIVITIES grant special activity permits to b ses who have been licensed and open I public at least 40 hours per week at lea days prior to the beginning of the event. S PERMITS CTIVITIES NT)D SPECIAL PERMITS CTIVITIES NT'D � display areas, barricades, special signage and other devices necessary to maintain public safety and traffic flow. " ~AND DESIGN INNOVA~ /5/ Lookout Place. Suite 200 Maitland. Florida 3275/ Phone: '107-975-/273 Fax: '107-975-/278 wwwLandbiz.com Memorandum To: Ken Hooper From: Tracy Crowe CC: Andrew Van Gaale Date: 6/18/01 Re: Kennedy Park We would like to present the following questions to the City Commission for discussion during the workshop scheduled for June 18: 1) 2) 3) 4) 5) 6) 7) 8) 9) 10) Which existing facilities are utilized the most? Should Kennedy Park continue to be an active park with recreation facilities, or should it be more passive with grills, picnic areas and landscaping? Which facilities should be located at other parks in the City? Which facilities should be replaced? Are there any additional recreation facilities that you feel are strongly needed? Should the facility be used for night time activities? Should there be lights? What is your recommendation for parking at the facility? Should the park be made special such as a memorial or City fountain/clock/tower? Should the design be native/rustic or more landscaped/memorial? Should there be theme for the park? Document12