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06-25-2002 - Workshop .... ....., CITY COUNCIL OF EDGEWATER WORKSHOP SESSION CITY OF OAK HILL JUNE 25, 2002 6:30 P.M. COMMUNITY CENTER MINUTES CALL TO ORDER Mayor Schmidt called the Workshop with the City of Oak Hill to order at 6:30 p.m. ROLL CALL City of Edqewater Mayor Donald Schmidt Councilman James Brown Councilman Dennis Vincenzi Councilwoman Harriet Rhodes Councilwoman Judith Lichter City Manager Kenneth Hooper City Attorney Scott Cookson City Clerk Susan Wadsworth Legal Assistant Robin Matusick Present Present Present Present Present Present Present Present Present City of Oak Hill Mayor Darry Evans Vice Mayor Susan Cook Commissioner Abraham Jackson Commissioner Ron Mercer Commissioner Robert Jackson City Attorney James Markel City Clerk Kim Cherbano Present Excused Present Present Present Present Present INVOCATION, PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE There was a silent invocation and pledge of allegiance to the Flag. MEETING PURPOSE The purpose of the meeting was to discuss City Boundaries, Annexations and Miscellaneous Issues with the City of Oak Hill. City Manager Hooper made a presentation regarding the annexation of the road right-of-way on U.S. #1 south to Ariel Road and annexation of the road right-of-way on SR 442 between our boundary and 1-95. He spoke of the City of Oak Hill being unhappy about Edgewater annexing to the south. City Attorney Cookson commented on discussion regarding whether the City of Edgewater acted legally in making the annexation. He thinks they can sit and debate amongst the Attorneys as to what is best to do to correct that issue. He thinks the larger issue is if there is any kind of middle ground that can be worked out or what the elected officials want to do with the issue. He further spoke on reaching an agreement. Mayor Schmidt informed Mayor Evans they haven't talked in a while. There are many people that would like to hear the concerns of both sides. He turned the meeting over to Oak Hill's Commission. '-" """"'" Mayor Evans turned the meeting over to Attorney Markel and Commissioner Ron Mercer. Commissioner Mercer brought everyone up to date on what happened. Initially when he found out that Edgewater put its sign down to Ariel Road and he called Edgewater to find out how they did that, City Manager Hooper informed him the City did it through a resolution. He got a copy of the resolution and spoke to City Manager Hooper how Edgewater had done this. His concern was if Edgewater could annex the road, and they have been told by three attorneys you can't annex a street, then why couldn't Oak Hill. At the same time they had a request, because they weren't trying to annex, they were just trying to get FDOT to let them move their sign southward. When he told City Manager Hooper that they wanted to go south, he informed him they couldn't. He questioned why Oak Hill couldn't if Edgewater did. He told him Oak Hill couldn't do it and that they wouldn't let them. That upset him that Edgewater as a City could do something that Oak Hill as a City couldn't do. In the meantime he got in touch with Mrs. Kern from FDOT. She called to let them know their request would be denied regarding moving their City limit signs to the south. He questioned why. She informed him Oak Hill doesn't have any property down there. He informed her Edgewater didn't have any property to Ariel Road either. He asked her why they allowed Edgewater to do that and Oak Hill couldn't do that. Mrs. Kern again said Oak Hill didn't have any property down there. He informed her neither did Edgewater. Edgewater did it and all Oak Hill wanted to do was exactly what Edgewater did. She again informed him they couldn't do that. He referred to a letter sent by City Manager Hooper. He read F.S. 171 and it didn't appear to him that you could annex a street or a road. It didn't appear to him that F.S. 171 that is in Edgewater's ordinance covered what they said it did in the ordinance. He spoke about Edgewater and Oak Hill having an agreement in 1994 that Edgewater wouldn't go past Roberts Road. Then later on Edgewater came back and said they would like to go to Clinton Cemetery Road. At that time, the City of Oak Hill agreed to let Edgewater do that because of the fact Edgewater had taken in the southern part of Florida Shores. The next thing they know Edgewater is passing an ordinance that they can't do what the ordinance says it does and you can't annex the road yet Edgewater has moved its sign down there. The City's annexation goes down to about midway of Hacienda Del Rio. That is a long way from Ariel Road. If Edgewater can help them do south what Edgewater did south, he doesn't think they have a problem. When they are denied the same thing Edgewater is afforded, something is wrong. Commissioner Mercer commented on a letter Oak Hill got from Timothy Laubach from FDOT stating that you can't annex a highway and that there are no Statutes permitting that. He is the lead legal counsel for FDOT. He would like to know where they get the authority to do what Edgewater did. Councilwoman Lichter stated she would like to find out exactly what Edgewater did. City Manager Hooper explained we annexed the DOT road right-of-way. To do that, they went through the advertising process. They got a letter from FDOT stating they didn't object to that. They talked to the County. When he and Commissioner Mercer spoke before he didn't tell him that they wouldn't let him. He tried to advise him that here is what the County is going to throw at you when you do annex further south is that you don't provide urban services. When Edgewater appeared in front of the County, we did water, we did sewer, we did Fire & Police and dispatch and they took that into account. Page -2- Council Workshop/Oak Hill June 25, 2002 '-'" ..." Councilwoman Lichter questioned not dealing with homes. People came to the Council and the people in between said they wished to stay in the County and if they had to go with either City, they would prefer to come with Edgewater. The City said they wouldn't take in anyone that didn't want to come in. We are specifically talking about a road right-of-way. Does a road right-of-way mean we actually own it or that we just have a right-of-way to use it? City Attorney Cookson stated it is in the City limits. He further explained the pavement would be within the right-of-way which is described in the legal description describing the boundaries of that road that is now within the City of Edgewater. City services are provided. Police patrol that. We are responsible for the maintenance along there. Councilwoman Lichter stated so a sign indicating Edgewater down that far might be misleading. City Manager Hooper explained it really says that is a jurisdiction because our officers issue citations and we investigate accidents starting at that point. Councilwoman Lichter asked if the people that live on both sides of the road are still in the County. City Manager Hooper informed her that is correct. Councilwoman Lichter asked about Fire and Police within those homes. City Manager Hooper explained the unincorporated area is still serviced by the County and is open to annexation by either City. The road right-of-way doesn't stop Oak Hill from annexing land. He further commented on property being contiguous to the existing City limits in order to annex. Councilwoman Lichter asked if there are other places in Vol usia County where a sign has been allowed to be placed or has turned over road right-of-way if a City takes care of all these things. City Manager Hooper explained this has been done numerous times in the past. It is probably not a practice that is done a lot recently. He referred to Port Orange doing this is in the past. Commissioner Mercer explained this started with Oak Hill wanting to annex up to the Consolidated Prestressed Concrete Plant. The Attorneys informed them they couldn't do that. They were wanting to purchase the Concrete Plant property to create a source of revenue for Oak Hill being it is so small. They were denied this two or three years ago and have been denied it every time on every turn. He commented on what he understands the law to be. He stated you can annex contiguous property and nobody is going to object to that. He referred to a letter from DOT. He read a letter to DOT from the City of Edgewater regarding annexing rights-of-way along U.S. #1 and SR 442. He further commented on DOT having no objection to the annexation process and not being able to consent to the annexing of the rights-of-way along U.S. #1 and SR 442. He feels it couldn't be clearer in the letters that they are not approving it and didn't approve it. He then read a letter dated June 20, 2002 that Oak Hill received from DOT. Commissioner Mercer commented on his discussions with the County Councilmembers. They said they had no reason to even get involved because they have nothing to do with the right-of-way on a State highway. Page -3- Council Workshop/Oak Hill June 25, 2002 "-' ..."", Councilwoman Rhodes stated let's assume we can't do it or that a court won't uphold it, how can that help Oak Hill. Commissioner Mercer stated it opens Oak Hill up for annexing northward. Councilwoman Rhodes stated at the meeting Edgewater had with Oak Hill in 2001, everyone of the Commissioners agreed that the demarkation line would be Ariel Road. There was a brief discussion regarding what Oak Hill Commissioners were on the Commission at the time of this meeting. Due to it being hard to hear, Mayor Schmidt asked the Council and Commission to pass the microphone back and forth. Commissioner Mercer stated the proper way to do annexation is to annex the property to the point and then place the sign. That is the proper way and the way the law calls for it to be done. The people can't be annexed in unless it is voluntary. They have people that do want to come into Oak Hill that is along that particular corridor. Edgewater has the right to annex the property south contiguously and if they get contiguously to Ariel Road and Oak Hill doesn't get anything north of Ariel Road before Edgewater gets there, then Edgewater has done it legally. He feels by Edgewater jumping down to Ariel Road, they have no choice as to what City they will eventually come into. Mayor Schmidt stated that is not true. We have annexed the right-of-way and are providing service in that right-of-way area. If you get contiguous and somebody north of Ariel Road wants to annex, the right-of-way is not going to stop them from coming into Oak Hill. Commissioner Mercer stated he would like to know where the authority is. James Markel, City Attorney, Oak Hill, spoke of signing the ordinance that was to annex the u.S. #1 right-of-way south to the Brevard County line being the first thing he did. Later, when people insisted that indeed what Edgewater did was legal and wouldn't give up on it, he did some research. The research shows without question that a City may not either annex a federal highway or state road nor may a municipality exercise Police jurisdiction over a federal highway and state road. He gave an opinion to his client that was buttress by an Attorney General's opinion. In order to institute a lawsuit, he had to ask the attorney general. He wrote a letter to City Attorney Scott Cookson to remove the City limit sign and place them where they lawfully should be. If not, they will be in front of a judge that will tell them to do that. That is not a threat, that is just merely a promise. Councilwoman Lichter feels the part that has griped her the most up to now, unless the newspaper has pulled things out of the air, have been some of the verbal attacks. She feels it was quite unorthodox to attach the City in some of the verbiage that Attorney Markel did. Attorney Markel stated anyone that does not follow the law when they know it and particularly a public body in the State of Florida that doesn't follow the law is an enemy of the City of Oak Hill. Councilwoman Lichter feels Edgewater and Oak Hill are neighbors but they have never considered themselves an enemy and that is an insult. Page -4- Council Workshop/Oak Hill June 25, 2002 ..... ...., Mayor Schmidt asked City Attorney Cookson to take them through the process. City Attorney Cookson explained the Florida Statutes set forth the way to annex property. There has been a lot of talk about the City not being able to annex the property. We did it. We annexed the property. That road is part of the City. We held public hearings. The public was noticed. The City of Oak Hill was on notice. The County was on notice. The DOT was on notice. DOT sent Edgewater a letter saying they had no objection to Edgewater annexing the road. We went through the process, held the hearings and adopted the ordinance. The Statute is clear that anyone having an objection to an annexation must file that objection within thirty days. If there is no objection filed, the annexation becomes official. If you are able to bring objections further than thirty days and that is why the Statute does this, then there is no certainty in the boundaries. Oak Hill had the opportunity to object as well as Volusia County, DOT and any property owner. No one objected. The ordinance was adopted and passed. Thirty days expired. The property is annexed. Mayor Schmidt asked about the letter from a DOT lawyer. Attorney Cookson stated we got the exact same letter. commented on his interpretation of the letter. City He City Attorney Cookson stated unless you bring a claim within a certain time, what is done is done. If Oak Hill's intent was to do the same thing south and that hasn't happened and they have gone through the same process, and the County has objected, that is not our issue. That is nothing we have control over. Mayor Schmidt stated even though we have the right-of-way down to Ariel Road and we provide service, that doesn't restrict them if they get contiguous land that wants to corne into Oak Hill stopping them from doing that. City Attorney Cookson stated they could annex all the way up to where the old City limits signs were as long as they have contiguous property. What we have done doesn't prevent them from annexing any property north. City Attorney Markel stated it is a fundamental principle of English common law and certainly American law that you never waive jurisdiction. You can not annex a federal highway or a state road nor can you exercise Police jurisdiction. City Attorney Cookson stated we have done it. Attorney Markel stated if they are forcing Oak Hill to go to court, they will go to court and get a judge to declare what they know the law is. Councilwoman Rhodes asked what the point of that would be. City Attorney Markel stated because this is illegal. Councilwoman Rhodes stated but it isn't stopping Oak Hill from annexing when they get contiguous property. All it does is moves our signs and it stops us from doing nothing. Why would Oak Hill waste their money doing that? Attorney Markel stated because they must follow the same law. Annexation must be done properly. The point of all of this is that you can not, may not, and should not attempt to annex a federal highway or a state road. It just can't be done. City Attorney Cookson asked why that is Oak Hill's issue. Councilwoman Rhodes stated why do you care? Attorney Markel stated because he wants people to follow the law. Page -5- Council Workshop/Oak Hill June 25, 2002 ...... ......., Councilwoman Rhodes asked Attorney Markel if he is the lone ranger going around to everyone that is not following the law. Attorney Markel stated he resents that. He feels Oak Hill is being hurt. Attorney Markel commented on running into a gentleman named Tom Crew who told him that he will be annexed into the City of Edgewater because he was told that by City Manager Hooper. That is a business they would like a chance at but they can't do it unless they do it legally. Councilwoman Lichter asked who Mr. Crew is. Attorney Markel stated he wants to put a marina in Edgewater. Councilwoman Lichter stated she thinks he wants to come into Edgewater. Attorney Markel stated it hurts all of them if the law that is set up for annexation or the law that is set up for any municipality is not followed. We must follow the same rules. If City Attorney Cookson wants to spend the City's money defending that, fine. He stated he would love to tell a Circuit Judge and later an Appellate Judge it is a pretty simple case. They tried to avoid it but say once again what the law is. Councilwoman Lichter stated we are just trying to get to the core of it and the feeling of it. Certainly we aren't going to make a judgement tonight if Edgewater is going to start our returning to go to court or not. That is a matter we will decide ourselves. She thinks our information, our background, our interpretation, and our letters do not say we can not do it. She doesn't know if moving the sign is sufficient. We started this process because we are providing water down there. City Manager Hooper stated water and sewer. Councilwoman Lichter feels it doesn't matter that much where the sign is. She doesn't think we should back down in what we believe is what we own or have the right-of-way of. City Manager Hooper spoke about the 60-acre park. If Oak Hill was contiguous, there is nothing to stop you from annexing that park if the property owner wanted to and you were contiguous. The same with us. We can't get to it by the DOT right-of-way that we have annexed. We have to get to it by it being contiguous to some other portion of the City. We are working very hard to make that occur. Commissioner Mercer commented on how Oak Hill is being hurt. We had an informal agreement back in 1998 to go to Clinton Cemetery Road. The fines and forfeitures, if they had a sign at Clinton Cemetery Road, defines the forfeitures on the speeding tickets and the traffic violations would help a little city like Oak Hill tremendously. They don't have the resources Edgewater does. If they could go to what was already agreed on, Clinton Cemetery Road, back in 1998, this gives Edgewater what they want and it also lets Oak Hill pick up some resources for the City on fines and forfeitures. Commissioner Mercer stated if Edgewater could come to Clinton Cemetery Road where there was a pre-existing agreement and the Cit of Oak Hill could come to Clinton Cemetery Road, that gives Edgewater Boston Whaler and the big Marina. It also brings them back to a prior agreement that both cities had and it also, if its legal for them to move to there, Oak Hill can move to Clinton Cemetery road and make an agreement to that affect, stop all the hassle and a little City like Oak Hill can pick up some resources from fines and forfeitures that Edgewater is picking up. Page -6- Council Workshop/Oak Hill June 25, 2002 ........ ..., Councilwoman Lichter spoke about feeling sandwiched between New Smyrna Beach and their beach and their financial their cultural centers and the grants they get. is very much in how a City perceives itself. We middle class City with the income we have and we thrown those bones. resources and She feels this are a very seem not to get Commissioner Mercer stated he didn't bring grants into the discussion. Councilwoman Lichter questioned making a fortune on tickets. Councilwoman Rhodes stated if we move our sign to Clinton Cemetery Road, Oak Hill is going to do exactly what Edgewater did, which Oak Hill is saying is illegal. It is still going to end up that whoever can annex contiguous land the fastest is going to get the point they are going to get to. That is going to happen whether Edgewater has the right-of-way or not. She can't see where the issue is here. She doesn't know why Oak Hill wants to spend money going to court to sue the City of Edgewater for something that is going to occur naturally by the citizens of the County and Edgewater and Oak Hill. Commissioner Mercer stated on the other token, you are saying it is perfectly fine for Edgewater to get the fines and forfeitures and the increased effort down through that area right now legally or illegally and that Oak Hill has no right to any of it should it be allowable by law. Councilwoman Rhodes stated the last meeting we had with Oak Hill, Oak Hill agreed with us that the sign would stop at Ariel Road. We left the meeting under those criteria and Oak Hill agreed with us. Now almost a year later, they want to come back and change it all again. Edgewater doesn't operate that way. Commissioner Mercer spoke about a comment made by Councilwoman Lichter regarding it didn't make a difference what Oak Hill was going to do. Edgewater had the votes to pass the ordinance and that is what Edgewater planned on doing. Councilwoman Rhodes made mention of a comment by Mayor Cook at the last meeting that they didn't want to annex anybody that didn't want to be annexed. The same as we don't. Councilwoman Lichter stated she would like to know when she said that we had the votes. City Attorney Cookson stated it is not the City of Oak Hill's job to police all the other cities in Volusia County and the State of Florida. Edgewater made the request for the Attorney General to do that. Certainly he is better suited for doing that and he hasn't seen the response but he understands he refused to take action on that. Attorney Markel explained he advises his clients and protects them. City Attorney Cookson explained if you don't file an objection within thirty days, the case is thrown out. He asked Attorney Markel why he is advising his client to take on an issue that has no effect on them. Attorney Markel stated any lawyer has the duty to advise his client as to what the law is and to follow the law and that is what he is doing. Page -7- Council Workshop/Oak Hill June 25, 2002 'W" ...." City Attorney Cookson stated but it has no effect on your client. Attorney Markel stated yes it does. It means the same rules will be played between Edgewater and Oak Hill. The fact is that what was done was illegal. City Attorney Cookson stated we are all playing by the same rules but what is breaks down is we have followed the same procedure, we have done the same thing, no one objected to us. When Oak Hill tried to do the same thing, someone objected. That is the difference here. It isn't anything we have done. Attorney Markel stated that isn't the issue. That is Edgewater's issue. He was asked what his issue is. He is advising his client. When they attempted to pass their ordinance, he did not know what the law was. Under voluntary annexation, you better have a petition from somebody that has a right to petition. Edgewater took the letter, which was ambiguous at best, he thought it was clear and said well that is voluntary annexation by DOT. They simply can't do that. Councilwoman Lichter stated she didn't think they were going to resolve this particular issue tonight. Maybe there is some other issues they could talk about in good faith. If this heads to court, it heads to court. She feels they have exhausted the subject. Mayor Schmidt stated if it is agreeable with the Oak Hill commission he would like to call a ten-minute recess and then he is going to open it up to the public to hear some comments from members of the County and both cities that are here. Commissioner Mercer objected to that because he doesn't think it has any variable for what they are here about. They are here about the right-of-way, not to talk about annexing those people in. Mayor Schmidt asked Commissioner Mercer if he objected to the public input part or the break part. He wants to be able to call a ten-minute recess and hear from some of the people that have come out of their way to come here. Councilwoman Lichter stated we always give our citizens the right to speak. Mayor Schmidt called a ten-minute recess at this time. Mayor Schmidt reconvened the meeting by opening the public hearing. He stated they want to hear from as many people as they can and asked everyone to keep it as short as they can. Patricia Smith, South Waterfront Park, 114 Lewis Street, stated her feeling is, and she speaks for a large group of people in South Waterfront Park, every time they have a ballot they find the people don't want to be anywhere but in the County. She has no problem with Edgewater keeping their City limits where they presently have it. Charles Brode, South Waterfront Park, 136 Lewis Street, stated he was here the last time they had a similar get together and this was discussed between the two Councils. They had a large contingency of their residents there who voiced opinions. The general consensus of opinion was that they receive their services from Edgewater and although they prefer not to be annexed in anywhere as it was voiced at that time, if they had to make a choice they would prefer to stay with Edgewater. Page -8- Council Workshop/Oak Hill June 25, 2002 .... ..., Mr. Brode stated they have nothing against Oak Hill but would prefer to be with the community they receive their services from. Both Councils reached an agreement at that time that Ariel Road would be considered where Edgewater should go to. With all due respect to Mr. Markel, he would imagine the Oak Hill Commission is at liberty to either take that advice or not take it. He feels out of common decency an agreement that was made a year ago should be honored. Mr. Brode asked for a show of hands of the people that agree with that. Sherman Babcock, 270 Navajo Drive, agreed that agreements that are made should be honored. He referred to September 27, 1999 when a meeting was held with Edgewater and Oak Hill. At that time, Edgewater and Oak Hill agreed to Clinton Cemetery Road and Jones Fish Camp Road as being the north south boundary and agreed Oak Hill would not annex property north of that line and Edgewater would not annex property south of that line. He further commented on voluntary annexation. He would like to see the agreement made at the September 27, 1999 meeting should be honored. He then spoke about an agreement being changed by the Oak Hill Commission. He spoke about another meeting held a few years later. There were no common people on the Commission except for Kim Cherbano. Mr. Babcock feels the Edgewater sign hurts Oak Hill because when you are driving north and you see a sign that says entering Edgewater, by God you ought to be in Edgewater and you're not. You don't get to Edgewater for another three and half miles. It does Oak Hill harm because people think they are out of Oak Hill and they aren't out of Oak Hill. They aren't in Edgewater either. They are in the County. Clare Jomp, Vice President, Homeowners Association, South Waterfront Park, 148 Douglas Street, informed Mr. Mercer they don't want to be in Oak Hill. They want to stay just as they are. If it works, don't fix it. If they want to go some place, they are going to go to Edgewater. They are not going to go to Oak Hill. She questioned why Oak Hill wants a part of them, is it taxes? She feels it is a rhetorical question. Tom Capetter, 191 Lewis Street, South Waterfront Park, stated he is with the County and he intends to stay with the County. He is neither interested in Edgewater or Oak Hill. They are happy the way they are. The County has treated him very well. He could care less if they move the sign to China. Billy Young, 195 Douglas Street, South Waterfront Park, stated she doesn't want any of their homeowners to become upset. They all have friends in Oak Hill and it is nothing personal against Oak Hill. It may eventually come to the point where they do have to annex one way or the other. She feels people need to keep a cool head, think about the options but she feels everyone is of a consensus that if they do have to annex they prefer to go to a City that is established and has a sound government and that would be Edgewater. Dominic Capria, 606 Topside Circle, stated it is amazing that with all this halabaloo that both cities still can annex from Ariel Road up anyway so he doesn't know what the big squabble is. He feels there should be some compromise. He suggested if it makes them happy maybe they should take the sign down. He asked for a show of hands of the people from South Waterfront Park. Page -9- Council Workshop/Oak Hill June 25, 2002 ...... ..." Jean Pasley, 4569 Lake James Circle, Shady Oaks Subdivision, off of Ariel Road, stated they are a community of 25 - 30 homes in there. We are an unrecorded subdivision and get no services from the County for their roads. They don't get any kind of services from anyone. She can not see where it would behoove them to go anywhere except where they are. She questioned if Mr. Markel is right. If he is right or if he is wrong, what difference does it make. It doesn't affect the people themselves. Councilwoman Lichter asked if they decide to take down the signs would that solve any problems legally or would the problem still exist. Mr. Markel stated it depends upon the advice the City gets from the Attorney. Taking down the sign shows they aren't illegally asserting jurisdiction over a place that they can't, which is the State road. He believes they should clarify the ordinance bu the is not Edgewater's attorney. He promised it would be clarified. He would like the Council to ask City Attorney Cookson for one case, one statute or one Attorney General's opinion that supports the annexation Edgewater did which is voluntary, apparently a voluntary petition by the State Road Department. There was a brief discussion regarding who would issue citations on that road. Mayor Schmidt feels they got out in the open the feelings in general of both sides. They will pass the microphone all the way around and if there are other issues we are going to move it on. He thinks this ultimately is going to be an Attorney, Attorney, City Manager issue. We have our beliefs and obviously we have to trust our counsel and our City Manager. In the end this won't hurt the relationships of the cities. This is a bump. We are still there for each other. Mayor Schmidt asked City Manager Hooper to give them an opinion regarding the citation portion of this. City Manager Hooper explained currently we are issuing the citations. We didn't just take that on. We have gotten the County to describe to our Police Chief and sign off that that is proper. The Highway Patrol has done the same, which to him indicates the State has agreed that is a proper annexation. We do all the accident investigations signed off on the County and State. When there are any accidents, we are the ones that respond. Fire and Police. He thinks we are fine with that. There isn't a lot of money to be made from that. City Manager Hooper explained DOT knew we were annexing and in exchange for that annexation we were taking over some of the duties that go with the ownership or the rights to do citations and the same thing with general maintenance. The City is also cutting that grass the maintaining it. This property has been annexed and if there is a move to be made it needs to be made by the City of Oak Hill. He feels at this point it is over. Councilman Brown stated most of the people out there were at the meeting where they discussed Ariel Road verses Clinton Cemetery Road. At the time they came to a decision, they said Ariel Road. The Oak Hill Commission did not disagree at that time and the people stated they didn't want to be in Oak Hill or Edgewater but if they had to decide they would prefer to be in Edgewater. He thought at that time they had come to an agreement without any problems between the cities. Page -10- Council Workshop/Oak Hill June 25, 2002 ..... .... Councilman Brown stated he doesn't want Edgewater and Oak Hill to be having problems. There must be a way to work this out without going to litigation. But if it is necessary, he is assuming the City will do so. He is hoping they can sit down like we are right now and come up with a solution to this in some fashion that is equitable to everybody. We don't want to have enemies. We are sister cities. Councilman Vincenzi stated he doesn't see any problem with the sign where it is. Oak Hill obviously has some contention about that. One question that nobody answered was when the County said they object to Oak Hill annexing south, did they give any reason? If they refused, Oak Hill should be going back to the County and asking why. We have our interests to protect and look out for and that is what we are doing. Commissioner Mercer stated it was not the County, it was DOT. Mayor Schmidt stated they have said at several meetings that the Edgewater Council wants to square out the City for the future's sake and determine where the City is going to go. Being blocked on the north with New Smyrna, obviously we have to come to an agreement on the south. He thought Ariel Road was a pretty comfortable decision that was made. He spoke of there being nine miles south of Oak Hill that will probably one day be Oak Hill. We are in a position to offer services such as Police, Fire, water and sewer. He hopes this doesn't have to go to a court issue. He informed the citizens south of Edgewater that we don't want them in the City unless they want to come into the City. It needs to be voluntary. If you are living in the County and happy with what you are getting, you should stay there. If there comes a point where they would like to come into Edgewater or Oak Hill, he is sure either City would be happy to get them. Councilwoman Rhodes stated hopefully there won't be any more issues like this. She understand their feeling as a point of law. Personally, she thinks whether they have the annexation or they don't, it changes nothing. She appreciated Oak Hill coming and talking with Edgewater. She feels that is the first step in any issue. Whatever way this is resolved, she hopes they work together to protect both of our towns, our County, our State, our river and our environment, that is going to be so very important and it will be up to everyone working together to take care of it. She hopes this doesn't hurt that in any manner. Councilwoman Lichter feels there has been a precedent set already for Edgewater, the County and the State to cooperate. This is not something new, our maintaining the roads, etc. within our community. We now have agreements with the County and the State and we help maintain U.S. #1 within the Edgewater boundaries. As far as enemies go, no. We have been sister and brother in Southeast Volusia. She spoke about Edgewater helping Oak Hill with dispatch and sending City Manager Hooper down to Oak Hill to give some advice when that was needed. Our City Clerk came and helped when there was a new City Clerk. Councilwoman Lichter feels we did nothing wrong and nothing illegal from the correspondence we have received. She has the greatest faith in our lawyer and she thinks the ball is legally in Oak Hill's hands. She thanked Oak Hill for visiting us. Page -11- Council Workshop/Oak Hill June 25, 2002 ~ ...., Commissioner Robert Jackson stated he guessed the whole crux of this thing as he has been listening is they want to move to Cemetery Road and they wanted it to Ariel Road. It seems like they could come to some agreement. They certainly don't want to go to court. This is ridiculous. You are not our enemy. You have always been our friend. He often calls City Manager Hooper for problems he has and he solves them. The only way this can be solved is to solve it. Somebody is going to have to back up and somebody is going to have to move forward or the lawyers are going to make a bunch of money. He doesn't see any reason in the world why they should be at each other's throats and talk about each other except in nice terms. He wants to continue that way forever. Edgewater is Oak Hill's sister city as far as he is concerned and everybody here is a friend of his. He agreed the last time he was here that Ariel Road would be the dividing line and he stands by it. Commissioner Mercer stated the only analogous he can use to what City Attorney Cookson said earlier is if a person robs a bank and they get away with it, did that make it legal. The answer to that is no. The Clinton Cemetery Road was the thing for a long time, that is what Oak Hill wanted. He referred to a letter from City Manager Hooper regarding there being a consensus of everybody to move the sign to Ariel Road. There wasn't much consensus to it when the Edgewater Council tells the other Commissioners they had the votes to pass the ordinance and we are going to do that. That is not much of a consensus or much choice to the Commissioners so did they not object, no. What could they object to, you were going to do it anyhow. He thinks the answer to this whole situation and what he would recommend is exactly what Mr. Babcock said. To work out something to Clinton Cemetery Road. He doesn't like to see things go to court but he doesn't like to see the law broken either. Mayor Evans stated he wasn't able to attend the meeting a year ago between Edgewater and Oak Hill. He feels they as a City will and must do what is in the best interest of the City of Oak Hill, the residents of Oak Hill and the Commission and whatever direction their lawyer leads them in and just do the best they possibly can. Without a doubt they will continue to move forward with their growth management as well as the City of Edgewater. When you come to a stand still you do not want to backup and neither does Oak Hill. If they can not sit down and come down to a logical agreement, then both sides must pursue any endeavor anyway they have to try to resolve the issue. Commissioner Abraham Jackson stated he was at the meeting a year ago and it was said that the Commissioners agreed upon the location of Ariel Road. It was stated. There was no vote. There was no ballot written or implied. It was stated that Edgewater was going to go ahead move to Ariel Road regardless of what they wanted because the people from Terra Mar Village and South Waterfront park was more or less going to decide to stay where they were or if they had a choice, they were going to go into the City of Edgewater. He feels they have to come to some kind of agreement. He commented on things that have occurred in the past. He feels they need to come to an agreement and a mutual medium so they are all comfortable so they can go ahead and move on. He stated one of them is wrong here and he doesn't know right off hand which one is truly wrong. He will let the facts speak for themselves. Page -12- Council Workshop/Oak Hill June 25, 2002 "-' ....", Mayor Schmidt asked if there were any miscellaneous issues to be discussed. City Manager Hooper commented on dispatch and the City of Oak Hill going with the Sheriff's Department for dispatch. He stated there needs to be a definitive date that that occurs. City Clerk Cherbano agreed to get back with him on that. City Manager Hooper stated we cease doing dispatch September 30th and the Consolidated Dispatch occurs at that point. City Clerk Cherbano agreed to give chief Beckstrom the information. Mayor Schmidt read a note. If annexations proceed in a checkerboard fashion contiguous property, how will emergencies be responded to. By the time they explain what area they are in, it will probably be too late. Mayor Schmidt stated if there is an emergency and whoever the dispatch may be, when it comes down to it, whoever is there, whoever can respond the fastest will be there. He doesn't want citizens to think that little things like this are going to affect Police and Fire Service. If the County needs help we are there. We have agreements for that. This is not and never will be an issue. ADJOURNMENT There being no further business to discuss, Mayor Schmidt adjourned the meeting at 8:25 p.m. Minutes submitted by: Lisa Bloomer Page -13- Council Workshop/Oak Hill June 25, 2002 '-' ...., There was a brief discussion regarding the mailing of occupational license renewals. They are looking to cut down on the number of renewals being sent out by only sending out one renewal. City Manager Hooper agreed to review this. There was also a discussion regarding penalties accruing starting October 1 st. Mr. Lear continued to explain his budget. There was a discussion regarding studies being done in-house. Mr. Lear stated they don't have the staff or the time to take away from every day things they have to do in the department. Councilwoman Rhodes expressed concern with a budgeted amount being lower than the estimated amount. She doesn't feel they should be going over the budgeted amount. City Manager Hooper explained why sometimes there isn't an option. Councilwoman Rhodes suggested doing a better job of anticipating. She feels when you cut the budget to nothing and you come back and you have over spent your budget that looks just as bad as cutting the budget to make it look good. She feels they all need to prepare better than they are. She feels it is the Council's fault because they approve this. City Manager Hooper then went over the Economic Development Board budget. Everything has been cut from this budget except the Chamber of Commerce. There was further discussion regarding the function of the Economic Development Board. Councilwoman Lichter commented on small businesses having a problem existing. She has received calls and they don't necessarily think the City is supportive of them. She suggested turning their attention to the small businessman and see if he needs some help. She feels this idea may fit under the domain of the Economic Development Board. City Manager Hooper briefly commented on programs that exist. He also commented on the small business expo done by the Economic Development Board. Steve Dennis, Chamber of Commerce, commented on seminars that are provided for all types of businesses. There was a ten-minute recess at this time. City Manager Hooper asked Personnel Director Debby Sigler to go over her budget, which she did at this time. City Manager Hooper spoke about the safety incentive program. There was further discussion regarding the expense the City pays for health benefits being negotiated in the union contracts every year. City Manager Hooper commented on the employees amount increases. As we get a new quote each year, the percentage is what is fairly constant. Those employees that have family benefit coverage actually pay a higher per month rate. Councilwoman Lichter asked if the employees have a choice whether they want to be in the dental or not. Ms. Sigler explained 100% of the employees are covered. They don't have to cover their dependents. They have a choice there. Page -7- Council Workshop/Budget July 8, 2002 ..... ..."" City Clerk Wadsworth went over the City Clerk Department budget. Mayor Schmidt suggested doing the newsletter quarterly. Councilman Vincenzi feels it is a good thing and if they could afford it they should do it monthly. It is really the only way the City communicates with everybody. Councilwoman Lichter has a problem with the newsletter going to the owner of the property and not renters. City Clerk Wadsworth informed her if someone notifies us that they would like a newsletter, they are added to our mailing list. City Manager Hooper went over the Other Governmental Services budget. Councilwoman Rhodes asked about Misc. Personal Costs being budgeted in 2002 and none of the money being spent but for 2003 there is 219,921 budgeted. If we budgeted in 2002 an didn't spend it why are we budgeted in 2003. Ms. Goins-Murphy explained this is the line code for the 5% raises across the board. The Misc. Personal Burdened Costs are the costs for benefits that are associated with the increase in salary. When everybody gets their 5% and it goes into the accounting system it actually hits each individual departments line codes for salaries. City Manager Hooper explained this isn't an expenditure that comes out of here. This helps them keep track of it. The line items in each department do not show the increase. Ms. Goins-Murphy explained what they could do and they have not done because of this being a tracking mechanism is they could break the amount down into each department. She further commented on other issues that are taken into consideration when they budget for salaries. City Manager Hooper explained they do it this way for tracking purposes and we used to do all the union contracts annually and they didn't come to Council until after the budget was done so they couldn't describe exactly how much was going to be there because they didn't negotiate the union contract until the last item on the agenda. That has changed. They could probably blend this in and show it but this is the way they have done it the past three years. Councilwoman Rhodes feels in order to get a fairer picture of what is going on it needs to be included in the 2003 so you are comparing the same thing to the same thing. City Manager Hooper stated they could get rid of that and show the current with the 5% as long as they show this elsewhere in some kind of a track mechanism. Mayor Schmidt asked if insurance really took that much of a jump from 2000. Ms. Goins-Murphy elaborated on having money in the self-insurance fund, which the City has since done away with. There was a brief discussion regarding the increase from 2001 to 2002 for insurance. City Manager Hooper explained part of this is looking at the assets the City has and update of ownership. City Manager Hooper went over the Capital Outlays under Other Governmental Services. There was further discussion regarding purchasing a bucket truck due to being in violation of OSHA standards. Page -8- Council Workshop/Budget July 8, 2002 .~ ...,., City Manager Hooper explained there were other capital cuts and this is one he initially cut and it went back to Public Works and came back that they could live without some other things. This is the one piece of equipment they had to have. Mayor Schmidt asked about vehicles for the Police Department. City Manager Hooper explained they are budgeted out of the impact fees so they aren't seen in the General Fund. It is five vehicles that are replaced. Mayor Schmidt asked if they are thinking about expanding the motorcycles as opposed to putting more cars on the road. Councilman Vincenzi asked about the figure for books and publications. He questioned if $11,400 is necessary. Ms. Goins- Murphy commented on there being quite a few memberships included in that. City Manager Hooper agreed to get them a breakdown on that. Police Chief Ignasiak commented on there being one vacancy in the Police Department and that is the fourth traffic officer they were looking at filling. They were going to freeze that position through this fiscal year to help generate some funds. They can maintain the same level of service without the fourth officer. The idea of bringing the fourth officer on was to go back and request that be a motorcycle officer. The lease itself would add up to about $2,300 a year which is a significant savings over a regular vehicle which costs about $22,000 a year. Mayor Schmidt asked how the Bike Program is doing. Chief Ignasiak stated the bike program is doing very, very well. Complaints they have been receiving regarding speeding issues and personal safety are now dropping off. He is now getting complaints from people that are receiving tickets. Mayor Schmidt stated he has spoken with both officers and they love it. There was a brief discussion regarding the schedule for the motorcycle officers. Mayor Schmidt asked about cross training other officers for the motorcycles. Chief Ignasiak stated that is an option he is looking at but would like to get more comfortable with the two motorcycle officers in place. Mayor Schmidt mentioned the fuel savings using the motorcycles as opposed to using the patrol cars. Councilwoman Lichter asked Chief Ignasiak about how much the City is making off of the tickets being issued in the recently annexed right-of-way down to Ariel Road. Chief Ignasiak stated he didn't know the figures exactly. He commented on phone calls he has received from residents down there thanking the City for doing traffic enforcement in those areas. Councilwoman Rhodes asked if they can go one more year to replace the 1990 pickup truck. City Manager Hooper spoke about increasing the fees in the Building Department to be able to buy that vehicle. Page -9- Council Workshop/Budget July 8, 2002 ~ ..", City Manager Hooper went over the Police Department budget. He asked Chief Ignasiak to talk about Educational Development, which he did at this time. He feels they have done more training in the last year than they have done in the previous five years. He also feels education is key for the department to move it along. He commented on the professionalism in the department and the recognition many of our officers are getting. Councilwoman Lichter asked Chief Ignasiak how he cut his budget by $500,000. City Manager Hooper commented on this being a result of the Consolidated Dispatch. He further commented on the 2003 proposed estimate for Consolidated Dispatch. Councilwoman Lichter asked if physical activity training factor into any place in the budget. Chief Ignasiak commented on there being no State mandate for Police Officers to undergo physical tests or skills once they have passed the Police Academy. They encourage their officers to work with themselves to improve themselves health wise, stronger physical condition and to stay in shape. He commented on some physical training that is involved when they attend some schools as part of the requirement. Councilwoman Lichter asked if there is some coordination with the YMCA. Chief Ignasiak asked if she was referring to working out while on duty. It is something that had been discussed with the Union and they were looking at that. His main concern right now is they have enough personnel to cover all their obligations out on the street at this time. He thinks it is something in the future as the department begins to expand they might come back and revisit. Councilwoman Rhodes asked if they could have some kind of incentive program where the City pays for memberships. City Manager Hooper stated part of what she is talking about he thinks is the next round of Union negotiations. Councilwoman Rhodes asked if the departments can set policies about weight and physical condition parameters. City Manager Hooper stated yes, through a Union contract. Councilwoman Lichter asked if other cities generally have parameters of weight and physical condition. Chief Ignasiak stated in the policing profession it is rare. Councilman Brown asked about other cities talking about possibly joining the Consolidated Dispatch and this lowering the cost for us. City Manager Hooper explained it might. The overall total budget may lower. It is probably a second year option. The first year is to get it up and running and then bringing somebody on in the second year. City Manager Hooper briefly went over the increases from the 1999 budget to the 2003 budget with regard to Retirement, Workers Compensation and Life and Health Insurance. Fire Chief Tracey Barlow then went over the Fire Department budget. Councilwoman Lichter made mention of response times and not being within the parameters. Chief Barlow stated they have a four minute response time. He further commented on using volunteers and further explained the 2 in-2 out. Page -10- Council Workshop/Budget July 8, 2002 -...,. ..."". Councilwoman Lichter then asked if the four minute response is well within what it's supposed to be. Chief Barlow stated national average, yes it is. Councilwoman Lichter asked if it reflects on the homeowner's insurance. Chief Barlow stated that is one issue that ISO does look at. He further commented on issues that ISO looks at. Over time they will start to see Councilwoman Lichter asked if we are the same insurance rating as we have been over the past few years. Chief Barlow stated in 1998 they did an ISO review. We went from a 7 to a 5. At that time, we only had one station staffed. Councilwoman Lichter asked when they will come back and look again. Chief Barlow stated that is the first one they have done in better than fifteen years. After they get the Consolidated Dispatch up and running he is going to ask for another review to see if they can shave a couple more points. City Manager Hooper asked Chief Barlow to speak to Council about changing the 56-hour work week in lieu of staffing additional staff, which he did at this time. Councilwoman Lichter asked the status of the golf course community. City Manager Hooper stated the gentleman has finished his zoning. He had a car accident and has been out for a while. He has told Mr. Lear he will be submitting his Water Management plan and other plans and bring them forward but we haven't seen those come through the system yet. Councilwoman Lichter stated if we are going to have new homes all the way down on u.S. #1 and some on Roberts Road are we still going to have this four-minute response time. City Manager Hooper stated long term they are looking for another station to the south. City Manager Hooper went over major cuts that were made to the Civil Defense budget. Mayor Schmidt feels the YMCA needs a weather radio inside the Y with them being a shelter and now with the pool. Chief Barlow stated the radios are relatively inexpensive. You can find them as cheap as $65. Before they make an investment, he agreed to take his personal weather radio over there to see if it functions in the Y first. Leisure Services Director Jack Corder spoke about two systems in town for lightning predictions. City Manager Hooper then went over the Code Enforcement/Animal Control budget. Councilman Vincenzi asked about $2,000 for overtime. City Manager Hooper commented on this being for weekend callout. Councilwoman Rhodes asked about Other Contractual Services. Chief Barlow stated that is currently the contract we had with the Humane Society. We don't have a definite plan for next year so there is money in the budget in case we end up with another contract with a Humane Society or other organization. City Manager Hooper informed the Council he is working with New Smyrna Beach over options dealing with Humane Societies. Councilwoman Lichter asked when there will be a determination of the animals that were confiscated. City Manager Hooper informed her next Monday. Page -11- Council Workshop/Budget July 8, 2002 '-' ..""" City Manager Hooper then went over the Building Department budget. They will be increasing user fees to balance the budget. He spoke about looking for a Plans Examiner and using consultants for plans review in the interim. Councilwoman Lichter asked if someone physically goes out and make sure a particular lot conforms to the requirements that the City has. City Manager Hooper informed her yes, Frank Conrey is a licensed Building Inspector. When they get behind on inspections, the developer will pay for the consultant to come out, catch up on permits and get those permits in and out the door. Councilwoman Lichter mentioned Habitat for Humanity homes meeting the same requirements as other homes in the neighborhood. City Manager Hooper stated Building Official Dennis Fischer has assured him that after the last issue that is being checked. City Manager Hooper made a presentation regarding the Public Works budget. He commented on Other Contractual Services. That is where they have placed the dollars that they would have put in for street resurfacing. They have taken it down to zero. He heard Council by consensus tell him to look for some more money to put at least something in there. Mayor Schmidt feels they need to have $100,000 in there. He commented on some of the roads hitting ten years. He spoke about the potholes on some of the streets. There are going to be some streets they are going to need to do something to. Councilwoman Rhodes stated if you don't maintain it, in the long run it is going to cost more. Councilwoman Lichter spoke about the priority list of streets. Maybe instead of tackling three or five of them, they need to look at one and two. She also commented on the potholes. City Manager Hooper agreed to look at the resurfacing. Director of Environmental Services Terry Wadsworth further commented on the Public Works Department budget. There was a brief discussion regarding the City of New Smyrna performing a lot of the mechanical duties for us. There is one mechanic in the garage for quick turnover type repairs. Councilwoman Rhodes asked what happened to the two mechanics. City Manager Hooper stated they are vacant, they are not existing positions. Mr. Wadsworth stated they left to seek employment elsewhere. There was a discussion regarding street lighting now being handled out of Public Works instead of Parks and Recreation. Councilwoman Lichter stated in the order of necessity, there is a big sum in street lights. She doesn't see that as being as vital as putting it into the road resurfacing. Mr. Corder stated that is only for existing street lights. Mr. Wadsworth spoke about the roof at the Public Works Facility needing to be replaced. They have received estimates from $25,000 to $35,000. The balance of that money is for repairs to the bUilding. Councilwoman Rhodes asked if it can wait a year. Mr. Wadsworth stated they could certainly try to do that. Councilwoman Rhodes asked if there is water dripping like City Hall. Mr. Wadsworth stated there is water dripping on the equipment inside. It is also a slip and fall hazard. Page -12- Council Workshop/Budget July 8, 2002 "-" ..., Councilwoman Rhodes asked how much a mower costs with the arms. She commented on the condition of some of the swales. City Manager Hooper stated they are also looking to get operators that are trained to do the herbicide so they can spray instead of cutting some of that. Councilwoman Rhodes expressed concern with what it will do to the water. City Manager Hooper explained there are herbicides that aren't environmentally toxic. There was a discussion regarding maintaining the canals. Mr. Wadsworth explained they are done on a specific schedule. Councilwoman Lichter asked if they are finding a lot of tires and debris in the canals. She suggested placing signs around them. Mr. Wadsworth stated they can add some signage but he doesn't know how effective it will be. City Manager Hooper also suggested putting something in the newsletter. Councilwoman Lichter would like to see it placed in the newsletter but to also have some signs. There was a five-minute recess at this time. Mayor Schmidt asked how much playground equipment they are planning on replacing. Mr. Corder informed him they are looking to replace the playground equipment at Whistle Stop Park. Councilwoman Lichter asked if the Rotary is going to supply some new equipment. Mr. Corder stated they put a small fitness trail in out there but they didn't want to do playground equipment. He is looking to schedule playground equipment for Rotary Park next year. He is ordering small playground equipment for toddlers for Menard this year and for Whistle stop also that will be in place within the next four to six weeks. They are after a large playground system for Whistle Stop in next year's budget. Mayor Schmidt asked if this is coming out of impact fees. Mr. Corder stated what he ordered today is. The new stuff is General Fund. Councilwoman Lichter asked what the material is on what he is ordering. Mr. Corder stated a lot of it is metal coated with plastic. Councilwoman Lichter mentioned the playground equipment at Manatee Park. Mr. Corder commented on their equipment having a high maintenance factor. Councilwoman Rhodes asked what the PVC pipe is for. Mr. Corder stated that is for the underground pipe for the water on Indian River Boulevard as construction progresses for sprinkler system in the future because we aren't able to get the grant money that the State has offered us until the end of the project and they can't see going in after the project is done to put pipe in the ground. Councilwoman Lichter asked if he will get the money from the State when the whole project is over and apply it to what was put in before the fact. Mr. Corder stated he doesn't know if they can apply it to what they put in at this time. They have informed us the $100,000 they are giving us won't be available until the end of the project. Page -13- Council Workshop/Budget July 8, 2002 ~ "'" Councilwoman Lichter questioned if they have to designate where the money is going or if it goes into the General Fund. Mr. Corder stated it would have to be used for Indian River Blvd. beautification. City Manager Hooper commented on this not being a lot of money for landscaping or irrigation. That will be a small fraction of what the Council wants to spend but it is a start. City Manager Hooper further commented on the Parks and Recreation budget with regard to additional personnel. Mr. Corder further explained his budget looks very large but a large portion of it is grant funding. He also commented on areas of higher cost. Councilwoman Lichter mentioned getting contributions for the medians. Mr. Corder stated they are working on a program to have donations done by businesses for maintenance of the medians. His department does the maintenance but they put up the funding to help offset the cost. Mayor Schmidt mentioned stop signs around the City that are becoming hard to read. Mr. Corder stated they were a little lax because they were so far behind on the other but they have gotten to the point where they are caught up and his new sign person has been going out and either replacing or cleaning the signs. Councilwoman Lichter asked if the City gets anything out of the billboards along U.S. #1. Mr. Corder informed her no. City Manager Hooper explained they are all on private property. He further commented on the policy adopted by the City regarding not allowing any new billboards. Councilman Vincenzi asked City Manager Hooper if he is going to go through the budget now and look at items the Council has asked questions about and he will come back with further recommendations for cuts. City Manager Hooper stated he is going to look to try and create some revenue or some money that can fund some portion of the resurfacing as well as get facts over what the Council has asked questions of tonight. Councilman Vincenzi asked if they are looking at already a $380,000 deficit. City Manager Hooper stated if there is a one mill increase it is not $300,000. City Manager Hooper stated on July 15th he is going to ask the Council to authorize him to advertise the highest number. They can go down but they can't go up. ADJOURNMENT There being no further business to discuss, Mayor Schmidt adjourned the Workshop. The meeting adjourned at 9:40 p.m. Minutes submitted by: Lisa Bloomer Page -14- Council Workshop/Budget July 8, 2002