01-23-2006 - Regular
CITY COUNCIL OF EDGEWATER
REGULAR MEETING
JANUARY 23, 2006
7:00 P.M.
COMMUNITY CENTER
MINUTES
1.CALL TO ORDER
Mayor Thomas called the Regular Meeting to order at 7:00
p.m. in the Community Center.
ROLL CALL
MayorMichaelThomas Present
Councilwoman Debra Rogers Present
Councilman Dennis Vincenzi Present
Councilwoman Harriet Rhodes Present
Councilwoman Judith Lichter Present
City Manager Kenneth Hooper Present
City Clerk Susan Wadsworth Present
Paralegal Robin MatusickPresent
INVOCATION, PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
There was a silent invocation and pledge of allegiance to
the Flag.
2.APPROVAL OF MINUTES
There were no minutes to be approved at this time.
3. PRESENTATIONS/PROCLAMATIONS/PLAQUES/CERTIFICATES/DON
ATIONS
A.Edgewater Police Department recognizing Bob and
Bertha Morin, Citizens Assisting Police members,
as “Volunteers of the Quarter”.
Chief Ignasiak commented on what the Citizens Assisting
Police members assist with.
Officer Ball presented plaques to Bob and Bertha Morin for
serving as Citizens Assisting Police members since
September 2004. He commented on what they have done to
help with the CAPS program.
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Ms. Morin thanked Councilwoman Lichter for referring them
to this program. This is the first time she has been able
to work with the public and do something that is of value.
She thanked Chief Ignasiak and Officer Ball. It has been a
valuable asset to their lives.
Mayor Thomas thanked Mr. and Mrs. Morin on behalf of the
Council. He further commented on being a reserve officer
for a year and a half and the time involved.
4.CITY COUNCIL REPORTS
Councilwoman Rhodes had nothing at this time.
Councilwoman Lichter stated next month the Water Authority
will be voting on the plan that will provide water and
start some of the projects that need to be started so we
will have a project accomplished by 2010. She presented
Council with a copy of the Water Authority Master Plan.
She also referred to an executive summary from Dr. Bruce
Mowry and an excellent map of all the cities.
Councilwoman Lichter stated Daytona Beach decided to pull
out of the WAV Group. We were in negotiations with them
for one meeting. Now they want formal negotiations and it
will probably end up in court. They want the small cities
to have less votes. They originally signed the packet and
legally they are still in it and owe us for a year’s dues.
She mentioned Kirby Green, Executive Director of St. John’s
coming to the WAV meeting last Wednesday. Several cities
that buy water from Daytona Beach were concerned. She
asked if there is a way to make the cities that are not
involved a part of it because of the projects planned. His
exact words were don’t let Daytona Beach hold anybody
hostage. They don’t have to be in the Water Authority for
them to get the water that is sitting there waiting for
them as long as they put their plan into execution and get
going on the plan. The money will be going to any cities
that are willing to work together.
Councilwoman Lichter informed the Council there would be a
st
Halifax/Indian River Cleanup on April 1. They will get
more information about that.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on the new program that was
started by Deborah Green. So far Ormond Beach, South
Daytona and New Smyrna Beach have joined. The City is to
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set an example for the rest of the citizens in
conservation. Councilwoman Lichter mentioned the Leisure
Services Director watering one time and getting cited by
the Environmental Services Department. They are going to
look seriously at if the City can improve its water
conservation.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on Councilwoman Rogers and
Mayor Thomas attending the year County review. The only
thing she was pleased about was when they did the
Industrial part and our entrance to ParkTowne was the lead
in to that article.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on the Craft Show this
weekend being excellent. She also mentioned Mr. and Mrs.
Morin directing traffic there.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on clean up of the City.
She spoke of having bumper stickers that have the Police
Department’s phone number to report people littering.
There are no signs on SR 442 or U.S. #1 that say there will
be a penalty for littering. She commented on the money
being spent having City employees clean up these roads.
She feels if it becomes publicized it might stop the
problem. The medians are gorgeous and it is a shame to
have stuff dumped on them.
Councilwoman Rogers commented on the State of the County
address being very informative. She also spoke of
ParkTowne being mentioned.
Councilwoman Rogers informed Council she would be attending
her first MPO meeting tomorrow morning. She commented on
having a lot of concerns in the City about transportation
and the future of these roads and the congestion they can
see coming. She encouraged anyone with concerns or input
on how they would like to see these roads fixed as far as a
north-south road or east-west road to e-mail her or contact
her. Her name and number are posted on the website.
Councilman Vincenzi stated he didn’t have anything to
report but he had two things he wanted the Council to
consider. The first one was Item 9C, which had a
discussion later on in the meeting, talking about voluntary
impact fees. He wanted to be able to discuss that before
they talk about any of the public hearings and ordinances
and resolutions because the discussion of those impact fees
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could potentially affect some of those items that we are
discussing.
Councilman Vincenzi felt that the workshop on Saturday was
going to result in some significant changes to the Land
Development Code. Things like height restrictions, lot
sizes, things of that nature. He stated he knows there’s a
lot of ideas that everybody has that they would like to
throw out on the table for discussion. He stated before we
talk about public hearings, ordinances and resolutions,
Item 6, he was going to request that a number of the items
under rezonings be postponed and that they don’t have to
talk about that right now. He was just letting people on
the Council know he was going to request that before they
start talking about it.
Councilman Vincenzi then asked if anyone wanted to talk
about the voluntary impact fees. He felt they should talk
about it before Item 6.
Councilwoman Lichter questioned Councilman Vincenzi wanting
to change the order of the agenda.
Mayor Thomas felt they should talk about it now before they
got into the land issue because some of them are written
into the ordinances. He asked if they had any open
discussion from Councilmembers.
Councilwoman Lichter stated she was trying to anticipate
why anyone would turn away volunteer money. It’s not like
it’s an under the table type of ride. It’s not like we
profit from something. She stated that certainly should
have no affect at all how you vote. Your voting for other
standardized reasons so that if someone after the fact,
after you change what they want, after you finally go
through weeks of things and all, if that particular project
passes, she sees nothing wrong. She felt they shouldn’t
look a gift horse in the mouth and say thank you very much.
It’s not an under the table thing. She stated it’s an on
the table type of thing in terms of things that City
Manager Hooper worked out and they are willing to do and
they don’t have to by any means.
Councilman Vincenzi asked if he could express his point of
view. Mayor Thomas informed him he could.
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Councilman Vincenzi stated first of all not too many people
know what impact fees are. Impact fees are fees that
developers are required to pay, legal impact fees, as a
result to attempt to pay for the affect that their
development has on the community as a result of more people
moving in, the need for more Police, more Fire, more water,
more sewer, etc. Legal impact fees are ones that are
discussed in public. They are voted on. They are enacted
and every developer has to pay for them and has to pay the
same fees. Voluntary impact fees are fees that the City
asks the developer for. Now all of this happens typically
before any discussion occurs about the development and
developers are more than happy to pay the extra amount.
They look at it as a cost of doing business. They will
write a check out for $100 more per unit or whatever the
impact fee might be. They will tack it onto the price at
the end so it doesn’t cost them anything anyway. They will
just go ahead and say okay we’ll be good neighbors and do
it. He believes developers have good intentions. He also
believes there are some that probably wouldn’t want to pay
for the voluntary impact fees if they weren’t asked unless
their development came under some criticism and the
possibility of not getting approved came up, then they
might offer. He feels if the City asks developers for
voluntary impact fees that’s sending a signal to them that
they should think about paying this because their
development is not approved yet. Alright now some people
don’t look at it that way and he is sure the city doesn’t
mean to put it forth that way but that is the way he looks
at it. Now, the fact that developers do pay these
voluntary impact fees willingly can be construed by the
public as whatever you want to call it, a bribe, buying
your vote, whatever and he doesn’t want anybody thinking
that he is doing that.
Councilman Vincenzi feels that the City should not be
asking developers for any type of voluntary impact fees.
He feels if the City needs more impact fees they need to
announce it in public, they need to discuss it in public
and they need to pass it legally and then every developer
has to pay the same fee. Then there is no question if the
City is asking for extra fees. Then the question of, if we
don’t pay it, maybe our development is not going to get
approved or developers buying someone’s vote, is not in
question anymore. It’s a legal impact fee that has been
discussed in public.
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Councilman Vincenzi informed the Council he was against
voluntary impact fees and after the discussion he is going
to ask the Council to direct City Manager Hooper to not ask
for voluntary impact fees from anybody anymore. He feels
if the City is interested in obtaining voluntary impact
fees it needs to be requested from the developer after it
has gone through the discussion. Whether it has been
approved or disapproved. Obviously if it’s been
disapproved they’re not going to want to give anything but
that’s alright. He feels it should be done after the fact
and that they don’t need the additional perception of
dishonesty up here.
Councilwoman Rhodes agreed with both of them. She also
feels there can be no perception of behind closed doors
things going on. She agreed with Councilwoman Lichter that
you don’t look a gift horse in the mouth. She mentioned
accepting developers that will donate land for schools or
they had one developer that wanted to donate land for City
Hall and they will accept that.
Councilman Vincenzi informed her that is going to come
under the same type of thing. When he was talking about
voluntary impact fees he was talking about impact fees or
offers to donate land, anything extra, over and above.
Councilwoman Rhodes agreed it needs to be in the open but
she also sees no reason why these developers can not help
lift the tax burden off the taxpayers of this City. She
doesn’t want to ask them for it but if they want to donate
it, after the fact, she agreed with Councilman Vincenzi.
If they want to donate it after the fact, then she has no
problem with it as long as everybody knows they are doing
it and not asking for favors in return for votes. As long
as it is done in the Sunshine and it can relieve some of
the burden of the citizens of this City, she doesn’t have a
problem with it.
Councilman Vincenzi agreed but stated some of these
agreements right now under rezonings have voluntary impact
fees built into the RPUD’s. They are in there already. He
feels they are saying to the developers they have to pay
those legal impact fees plus the City wants them to
voluntarily donate money.
Councilwoman Rhodes suggested they take it out.
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Councilman Vincenzi informed her that’s not enough. He
wanted the perception eliminated.
Councilwoman Rogers agreed that what both Councilwoman
Lichter and Councilman Vincenzi said was pretty clear. She
expressed concern with the donation of land. She didn’t
know if she would categorize the voluntary impact fees and
the donation of land as exactly the same. One is monetary,
one is a piece of real estate. She commented on the need
for a new City Hall and it probably not being in this
location. As far as the impact fees go, she feels if they
were to make certain impact fees not be voluntary but
suggested they increase the road impact fees so it could
help offset some of our road issues that we will be having
with the larger population that is going to be forecasted
in the City. She believes they definitely need to look at
this. She doesn’t want people to have the feeling that
they are allowing a developer to do what he is proposing to
do because he is going to give us money for this or for
that. She again mentioned they definitely needed to look
at this and increase the road impact fee.
Councilwoman Lichter questioned the impact fees we have,
such as roads, that are established being the same as other
cities and looking to other cities to compare prices. She
asked if they are they ones that most people do?
City Manager Hooper informed her no, not really, we have
mandatory impact fees that the City has adopted by
ordinance, based on the study. There are several court
cases that say how you do the study, how quick the money
has to be spent and what it can be spent for.
Councilwoman Lichter questioned adopting volunteer impact
fees and they either volunteer or not. City Manager Hooper
informed her sometimes you can, sometimes you can’t. The
difficulty is some of these things are not quantifiable.
Road impact fees, there is a methodology. Fire/Police
there is a methodology.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on Mayor Thomas working a
deal with the developer for Oak Leaf Preserve who was
willing to try to help fix the problem in Mission Oaks with
their terrible water problems. They were willing to cut
the amount of houses they were going to have and a deal was
settled.
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Councilman Vincenzi stated he didn’t cut a deal. He talked
to developers to modify their RPUD and bring it up here in
front of the Council. That is what he did. He did not
make a deal with any developer. Councilwoman Rhodes didn’t
think he did that. Councilwoman Lichter felt he just had a
good discussion with them, laid out a few points, they
agreed and then it came to us and we all agreed.
Councilman Vincenzi informed her that is right.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated he brokered a consensus, which
is what he is supposed to do. Mayor Thomas stated what he
did was tried to make a compromise. He also informed him
he couldn’t tell him how the Council was going to vote.
Councilwoman Lichter felt the same thing could be said with
voluntary fees. She stated every city might have different
voluntary fees. We pick the ones that are affecting us
directly. Certainly every one of those are going to cost
taxpayers money to get accomplished. She feels if they are
established before the fact she sees nothing wrong with it.
She feels if a development is good for this city and meets
the PUD we put out for, it’s going to bring in whatever we
want it too, different types of housing, affordable
housing. There are many things that are needed for people
that you do with housing. She again mentioned they
shouldn’t look a gift horse in the mouth and they could
even volunteer on their own to do it. She wasn’t sure who
mentioned it first but it’s not hidden and she thinks that
is what a bribe is.
Mayor Thomas stated he didn’t want to look a gift horse in
the mouth either but one of his goals is to bring back some
honesty to the people’s perception of government. He
feels it’s not right. He doesn’t want the perception they
made a deal and they are swaying their vote. He had no
problem with them wanting to give us something after the
fact.
Councilman Vincenzi doesn’t want anybody in the public
accusing him of being dishonest. He stated if he has done
everything he can to prevent it then he is happy after
that.
Mayor Thomas feels they need to set some type of standards.
They couldn’t expect a developer that developed eight
houses on 2 ½ acres to give as much as $100,000,000
condominium so you need to take a percentage or whatever.
If they want to donate something after we vote on
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something, then that is fine. Another thing you have to
look at is what if one developer has several things coming
up and if he gives so much he might think they would vote
yes the next time. He can only give a certain percentage
if he wants to.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated what if you have a developer
that is putting in a subdivision and they want to put a
park in there and have it be open to the public. Do you
let them do it or don’t you?
Councilman Vincenzi stated if it is part of their agreement
and they want to do something for the entire town, like
have public access like Edgewater Harbor. He isn’t going
to gain anything from it.
Councilwoman Rhodes questioned why is that different and
why would you gain anything if they gave a donation?
Councilman Vincenzi stated because they aren’t giving us
anything. Councilwoman Rhodes then asked if they gave a
donation, why would you gain anything from that?
Councilman Vincenzi feels if they are giving a donation, a
monetary donation and depending on the cause and what it is
for, it could be construed as buying someone’s vote.
Councilwoman Rogers stated but if the donation is done
before an agenda item comes to them for approval. If
somebody comes in here and wants to give us $50,000 to do a
park, I am going to say take it. But if we are in the
process of looking at a development and then we’ve got
these voluntary impact fees then she would have a problem
with that.
Councilwoman Rhodes didn’t see a huge difference there only
because a park has financial monetary value. She didn’t
see why that is different than money.
Mayor Thomas again stated they needed to set a standard.
City Manager Hooper informed the Council they have
standards. He commented on the school sites that they
heard at the Smart Growth that is coming. School
concurrency is around the corner. There is a County school
impact fee that they are looking at, a dollar amount above
and beyond. Some of those, until there is a true adopted
fee, are going to be requested with either school sites,
which we have done or in dollars. They have the same thing
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in drainage. He commented on the drainage issues with the
Oak Leaf Preserve and he has asked for $200 an acre. The
study costs about $200,000 and they have 1,000 acres, which
comes out to $200 an acre. The animal shelter is $100 a
household. They are not flexible numbers. It’s flexible
in yes they either say they will agree or not agree and
they have had both. This started about four months ago
with him. I’m the one that came up with this crazy idea of
asking developers for money of going and saying this is
coming before the Council. If it’s going to be approved it
needs to be in the agreement. Otherwise they don’t see it.
He commented on the property trading hands. If it’s not
recorded there is no commitment. If the Council is after
those types of fees, they have to be recognized and placed
in the developer agreement. He commented on Edgewater
having most and the highest impact fees in Volusia County.
The road impact fees are higher than any other city and you
have a combination of local roads plus county roads. You
have gone and been advanced a long way in having the full
compliment of what you can for impact fees. These are more
geared towards operation, a drainage study.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated there are some things impact
fees don’t cover. City Manager Hooper informed her that’s
correct, if it’s not a capital item. The shelter is to
offset some of the operations of the shelter. It’s not to
build a shelter. You have a voter-approved referendum, an
adopted plan and a site so there is some differences there.
Clearly none of you are looking at $100 per household
changing one way or the other their votes. That is just so
blatantly obvious. You are not swayed by something like
that. He commented on negotiating incentives as trades.
Those are things that go into contract zonings, PUD
zonings, one in the same. Those are negotiated. When it
comes to Council they have the option of saying yes or no.
If they don’t want to accept the fees, they can adopt or
modify the PUD agreement at any time.
Councilman Vincenzi feels they should not even be asked for
it to begin with. City Manager Hooper disagreed with
Councilman Vincenzi. He informed Councilman Vincenzi his
job is to maximize the benefit of any development.
Councilman Vincenzi stated right, we can talk about
development. We can approve it or disapprove it and
everybody is free to go and ask the developer whatever they
want.
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City Manager Hooper stated you only see the document and
the agreement. If it’s not in there you don’t. Councilman
Vincenzi asked him to tell me why. City Manager Hooper
told him he has tried to. Councilman Vincenzi stated
because they might not do it. City Manager Hooper informed
him it’s not binding. Councilwoman Lichter stated because
they change ownership of the land.
Councilman Vincenzi stated so basically what you are saying
is you want to lock that developer in and make them commit
to it otherwise the City might not approve your
development. City Manager Hooper informed him that’s not
at all what he was saying. Councilman Vincenzi stated that
is what he hears people in the public potentially saying to
him. City Manager Hooper informed him that was not the
case. You have had some that have said no. The whole idea
is they are approving development. Development causes
impacts into the City and you are trying to mitigate those
in any way shape or form. You’ve got taxes that come in.
Councilman Vincenzi stated you have legal impact fees to
cover that. City Manager Hooper replied by stating and you
have impact fees that come in and you ask for other fees.
Councilman Vincenzi feels if they need more impact fees
they need to discuss it in public and legally pass them.
City Manager Hooper informed him some of these things are
not true impact fees and you couldn’t because they are not
capital.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated impact fees don’t cover it.
They can’t by law. Councilman Vincenzi stated then it’s up
to negotiation after you have talked about the development
and approved or disapproved it. To him it’s a bargaining
chip and he isn’t going to have it sitting in front of him
while deciding whether to approve a sixteen-story condo.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated I have never seen anything as a
bargaining chip like that. Councilman Vincenzi stated well
I see people seeing it that way and I’m sorry that is the
way I feel. Councilwoman Rhodes stated well I don’t.
Councilman Vincenzi stated and if we are done discussing it
I am going to ask for a roll call if the Mayor approves to
get an opinion from the City Council to direct City Manager
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Hooper as to whether to ask for voluntary impact fees or
not in the future.
Councilman Vincenzi made a motion to direct City Manager
Hooper not to ask for voluntary impact fees from developers
in the future.
Chris Balmer asked if they get to make comments?
Councilwoman Lichter stated it wasn’t on any agenda and
they didn’t know it was going to be voted on. Mr. Balmer
felt they were totally off the agenda. Donna Wagner
agreed.
Councilman Vincenzi stated he requested it be moved up and
Councilwoman Lichter started talking about it now so they
are talking about it.
City Manager Hooper informed Mayor Thomas it was on the
agenda so he could take some public input. It has been
agendaed and it has been advertised.
Mayor Thomas opened the public hearing.
The following citizens spoke:
Chris Balmer
, 148 William Street, didn’t see the difference
between the City asking for a specific amount of money for
a specific project whatever that may be verses things we
have done in the past like Mission where we have been able
to talk to the developer which he thinks was done correctly
to fix the drainage problems in the areas. Edgewater
Harbor comes to mind. It is a great development. He knew
that the City negotiated the fact that the riverfront could
be accessed by the public for not only shopping, marina,
and parks. His expectations of the Council were to look at
a development and not just say yes or no to 450 units.
It’s to say okay you know your zoned for this and we can
look at these units but we’d also like the public to have
access to that riverfront. Is that possible? We’d like to
have a park in there for the public. He feels that is part
of the Council’s job. He doesn’t see it as buying votes.
He hoped the Council wasn’t influenced by those things but
he trusted that they’re not. He hasn’t seen that in the
past. He commented on three of the Councilmembers serving
on Council the last six years. He doesn’t think that has
been a problem in the past and he feels they have an
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obligation to the public, especially in projects that are
riverfront, to ask the developer to give part of that
riverfront back to the community. To let the public have
access to that. Yes, develop it but give other folks
access also. He thinks that’s the right thing to do. The
Council makes the decisions and he hoped they would make
the right one.
Carol Ann Stoughton
, 2740 Evergreen Drive, congratulated
Mayor Thomas and Councilman Rogers on their victory. She
also extended this to Councilwoman Rhodes as to her re-
election as Councilwoman and Dennis Vincenzi as Vice Mayor.
She knows that they all will work together for the
taxpayers and the voters of Edgewater.
Ms. Stoughton stated feels voluntary impact fees kind of
look like a bribe. It’s I’ll pay this so I don’t have to
pay that. She feels the Council knows the best way in
which to handle this matter whether or not they want to
donate or how they want to donate after the fact, as long
as they pay what it takes for whatever they bring in as to
the costs involved for the taxpayers and residents.
Robert Lott
, 2112 South Riverside Drive, feels Edgewater at
a very critical stage of our development. He commented on
the hard and tough decisions the Council has to make.
Public office is difficult. He applauded everybody sitting
up there for their efforts. He keeps hearing the word
perception. There is no way you are going to make a
blanket statement or a blanket ordinance that makes
everybody up there perceive the honest joe. You just have
to be honest joe. What he expects out of Council is to get
the best deal for the City because we are gong to grow and
we cannot stop the growth. We want to look to the future.
What do we want our town to look like? How are we going to
pay for that? He wants the Council to negotiate that and
make those deals. He doesn’t perceive them as bribes. He
perceives them as the Council negotiating on his behalf as
a citizen. He doesn’t want to vote on it every single
thing that comes down the road because he can’t take the
time to educate himself on everyone of those issues. He
feels that is Council’s job. That is what he expects the
Council to do and he knows they can do it. Everybody up
there is capable of it. They expect them to look at the
facts. Look at what is in the best interest of the
majority of this City, not the vocal minority but the
majority of this City and make the right decision for us.
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Glenn Storch
, Storch, Morris & Harris, commented on not
seeing a lot of other voluntary impact fees around the
area. But you do see people negotiating out and dealing
with mitigating the impacts of development. He stated
growth should pay its own way and he knows that his clients
believe that. Roads should pay its own way. How do you
get to that point where they pay their own way and make
sure that they deal with that? You look at each
development especially as far as a PUD is concerned. You
see how it is impacting the area and then you deal with the
things you need to deal with to make sure those impacts are
mitigated. That is how you deal with it. The term
voluntary impact fee if applied over and over again may
have a problem. I mean at that point what you do is you
may have to go out and do a determination as to whether it
is a legitimate impact fee or not if you are doing it over
and over again. But if you are taking a single project and
say this project may have an impact on these areas because
of its use and therefore we need to mitigate those impacts
because of this particular project then I think under a PUD
you can do that. If someone comes in under an existing
zoning and they are going under your Land Development Code
then there is no basis for you to then ask for additional
impact fees.
Councilman Vincenzi asked Attorney Storch why they are
paying so much in impact fees for the River Oaks condo
project? Attorney Storch stated again in that case
whatever we negotiate out is final. We would give you
impact fees if the Council thinks that is appropriate under
the approved development agreement. If the Council thinks
no impact fees are appropriate under that existing
development agreement that is fine too. Again it really
should have some rational nexus to the project itself and
if the proposed impact fee does not have a rational nexus
to the project itself and to the impacts of that project
there may be a problem. As far as negotiating out and
saying this project may have something that has an impact
on an adjoining piece of property, for instance like the
Oak Leaf project did, where we dealt with the stormwater
for the adjoining project. That is a logical thing to do.
The same thing can be applied in other projects depending
on how you do it. He feels the term voluntary impact fees,
are something that you are negotiating out as part of an
overall agreement. I think that is not necessarily a great
term but I think the idea of providing for mitigation of
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impacts based on existing impacts for existing specific
projects is a logical thing to do.
Councilman Vincenzi feels if you haven’t studied the
problem in public and you don’t know what impact your
project is going to have, how can you set a fee?
Councilwoman Rhodes feels impact is the wrong word. It
should be a voluntary donation to the City. It should not
have the word impact in it at all because your voluntary
donation may be to something that maybe you have no impact
on but would help the taxpayers not have to pay so much for
another project.
Attorney Storch stated and you can do that. He understood
where Councilman Vincenzi was coming from as far as
requesting that voluntary donation because then there is a
point where it doesn’t become voluntary and I think that is
the issue. But as far as developers paying their own way,
they have to and they should and they have volunteered to
do that. That part we will deal with. As far as all the
stuff we have looked at, as far as roads, Fire, and Safety
any of those issues those are logical things to ask for as
part of your negotiation.
Dominic Capria
, 606 Topside Circle, doesn’t believe
voluntary impact fees help the residents of the City of
Edgewater. The developer puts it on the price of what he
is building so therefore the taxes go up. Back in 1988 or
1989 they paid impact fees and then impact fees paid for
the roads where they live. But did it help us no. All it
did is when the rest of the roads had to be paved it was
1/3, 1/3 and 1/3 our taxes went up. Not down, but up.
Councilwoman Lichter stated because we paid for the rest of
the City.
Mr. Capria stated he didn’t know what the answer was as far
as impact fees to reduce taxes because he feels it’s not
going to. We keep saying impact fees and smart growth are
going to reduce our taxes because we’ve got more money
coming in. He hasn’t seen it yet. If we have to raise
taxes for them to keep the prices down on the developers he
would rather see that. I’d rather see that because the
prices of the houses are not going to go up so therefore
maybe it’s a break even deal but the end result is let’s
tighten our belts if necessary to do these things.
Page 15 of 52
Andy Anderson
, Pine Tree Drive, feels the concept of impact
fees is an excellent idea. They never use to exist to his
knowledge years ago. The reason for them is very
understandable. He feels they should see a result of these
impact fees on the people that are living in the City now.
Mayor Thomas asked Mr. Anderson if we was referring to the
voluntary impact fees or the ones that are in affect now.
Mr. Anderson informed him impact fees in general. He
thinks they should see the result of these impact fees on
their taxes and the concept is great in his view.
Mike Visconti
, 316 Pine Breeze Drive, asked if the impact
fees that we collect now are a percentage of whatever the
project is worth or a percentage of the house.
City Manager Hooper informed him they are based on impacts,
meaning if it’s road, it’s the number of trips generated.
If it’s water, it’s the gallons consumed of water. If its
wastewater, it’s based on gallons the wastewater generates.
So they are based on a unit or component of how they will
impact the community. Part of what is being described is
this thing is to lower taxes and clearly that is not the
case. Impact fees are to offset the cost it takes to
provide the services to the developing new community.
Existing community isn’t going to have the lowering of
taxes to it. It’s to add new projects but it’s not in
place of existing tax dollars.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated no but what it does do is when
those impact fees are paid that means that we don’t pay it.
That means the people coming in here pay it.
Mr. Visconti stated it cost him $5,000 for impact fees when
he built his house so that was a percentage of what his
house is worth. If the person or the developer pays the
impact fees and he wants to donate a park or a house or
some kind of a public building, why can’t he donate that to
the City if he wants to? Councilman Vincenzi stated he
could.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated this City Hall is on land that
was donated to the City and it can’t be used for anything
else.
Page 16 of 52
Councilman Vincenzi believed if it is done before the fact
then it has the perception and the possibility of
corrupting the vote that is up here.
Councilwoman Rhodes feels they need to get every penny out
of every developer that comes into this City.
Mayor Thomas again suggested setting a standard on how they
are going to get it.
Councilwoman Rhodes suggested they get as much as they will
give.
Pat Card
, 3019 Willow Oak Drive, feels these people want
something the City has. It’s an opportunity to build in
this community. He also feels the Council should get
whatever they can out of them, they should get it in
writing and they should get it in the Sunshine for this
City because they want to build here. He objected to the
City Council does not ask a developer to do something
special. All you have to do is say you want them to build
this and they will do it.
A woman in the audience asked Mr. Card if he is on the
Planning and Zoning Board.
Mr. Card informed the public he is on a board but he is
also a citizen. Mr. Card feels perception is only good for
re-election. What you have to do is make tough decisions.
John Cordeiro
, 1515 Pine Tree Drive stated in Edgewater the
meaning of the word bribery has been changed to voluntary
impact fee. He wondered what meaning the state attorney
would use when he hears about it. Builders are donating
money to the pet society and pet shelter and calling it a
voluntary impact fee.
Mr. Cordeiro stated there is a member of this Council who
is the biggest advocate of the pet projects and that person
also votes on building projects these donors have before
the Council to be voted on. What do you call this? He
calls it bribery and corruption.
Donna Wagner
, 2922 Unity Tree Drive, stated she is one of
the Chairpersons for the Pet Society and as far as any
impact volunteer or any other type of fee this City has
requested, asked for or donated, the Pet Society has not
Page 17 of 52
received one red cent. All they do are fundraisers. She
has a solicitation with the State of Florida. She is
registered non-profit with the IRS and she takes offense to
people saying that we have been given money that we haven’t
been. If the City requests a voluntary impact fee for
drainage, for landscaping, for the pets because the houses
they sell may have pets in them and they are now going to
provide a facility for those homeless animals when people
move into apartments and can’t keep them and they just drop
them out on the streets. This City at least has finally
taken a stand and said they are going to do something about
it. Every shelter in this County is over run with animals
and they have to euthanize thousands of them a week. We
finally decided and got the citizens of this City to make
an effort to try to help alleviate that problem. If the
pets are the problem here, fine don’t ask for it for the
pets. Don’t even say anything about it. Then the Pet
Society will take the donations and I will give them a tax
deduction for it.
Mayor Thomas entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Rhodes informed him there is a motion on the
floor.
Mayor Thomas asked Councilman Vincenzi to make his motion
again. Councilman Vincenzi stated the motion that was made
before was to direct City Manager Hooper not to ask for
voluntary impact fees from developers.
Mayor Thomas asked for a second. Due to not hearing one,
he seconded it
.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if he could second it without
passing the gavel?
Mayor Thomas then passed the gavel and seconded the motion.
The MOTION CARRIED 3-2. Councilwoman Rhodes and
Councilwoman Lichter voted NO
.
There was a ten-minute recess at this time. The meeting
recessed at 8:03 p.m. and reconvened at 8:12 p.m.
Councilman Vincenzi asked if everyone on the Council wanted
to discuss the workshop on Saturday regarding the Land
Development Code at this time. He wanted to get permission
from the Council to discuss this at this time. This would
Page 18 of 52
be a request to postpone Items 6D, 6C and 6F on the agenda
because they are about to enter lengthy workshops about the
Land Development Codes which would affect these rezonings.
City Manager Hooper encouraged caution at this point. Some
of these are what he calls vested and they made application
under the current Land Development Code conditions. He
mentioned things like this leading to lawsuits. He
compared an existing application to something that is
coming through after the Code has been modified
Councilwoman Rhodes asked Councilman Vincenzi if what he
wanted to do was put these off until after the Land
Development Code changes are made and then have those
changes apply.
Councilman Vincenzi stated that is what he is asking the
Council to consider.
Mayor Thomas asked if on the first reading they could do
that but under the second reading they would come under the
old code. City Manager Hooper informed him they are all
under the old code. All applications are consistent with
the code. He further explained in order to stop here, they
would have to declare an emergency. They would have to put
those into effect for a period of time and say the
moratorium word and vote on it. He feels they would be
challenged strongly. He thinks the City Attorney, who he
has talked to about that, would tell them that is the
course of action that it would lead to.
Councilman Vincenzi agreed it could cause problems however
when these items do come up the other alternative is
negotiating an RPUD agreement. City Manager Hooper
informed him that is correct and that they have one in
front of them tonight. Councilman Vincenzi stated everyone
on the Council has the RPUD in their packet and they have
read it. They might have some ideas on how to negotiate it
or what they want to see out of it but a lot of the issues
are important and he feels needs further consideration,
such as Item 6F the condo project and height restrictions.
IF they can negotiate a height restriction or a height
lowering of these buildings, he would just be inclined to
vote no on it. City Manager Hooper stated they are
entitled to negotiate height restrictions. They can do
that. It is not part of the Code. PUD’s offer you the
ability to negotiate height.
Page 19 of 52
Councilman Vincenzi stated unfortunately PUD’s don’t
typically get negotiated.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if they are going to talk about
is it over with voluntary impacts or will that be discussed
at a different time.
Mayor Thomas stated the motion’s been made and passed that
City Manager Hooper is going to draft something.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated they voted they couldn’t ask for
it.
Mayor Thomas stated but the second part of Councilman
Vincenzi’s report was to discuss the Land Development Code.
Councilman Vincenzi confirmed Items 6C, 6D, and 6F and
whether to postpone it or not. He guessed it would
probably be better if they discussed it on schedule instead
of just flat out postponing it.
Councilwoman Lichter stated at a different point, because
she doesn’t think it was the total intent, but maybe it
was, to say absolutely no for voluntary. She thought he
wanted some type of structure to it. Because of the late
hour, she felt it should be brought up again at a different
time. She spoke of not having a definition and
terminology. She feels it needs more clarification. She
feels they shouldn’t be through with the matter if someone
wants to take it further.
Mayor Thomas asked Councilwoman Lichter if she was making
another motion.
Councilwoman Lichter asked City Clerk Wadsworth to read the
exact verbiage of the no vote, which she did at this time.
Councilwoman Lichter moved to put a halt on asking for
voluntary impact fees for the present and perhaps City
manager Hooper could work out some kind of compromise that
would meet all of their desires with the exception of being
evil or taking a bribe as well as perhaps a way to
encourage the occurrence of some money coming into the
coffers. Perhaps it can still go on a bit further meeting
the desires of getting more money in but also wiping out
the perception of taking a bribe.
Page 20 of 52
Mayor Thomas apologized and stated he was lost.
Councilwoman Lichter stated right now the matter of
voluntary impact fees is totally dead. She wasn’t sure if
they wanted more discussion on it or if they wanted it to
be totally dead.
Mayor Thomas informed Councilwoman Lichter it was up to her
if she wanted to make a motion to set some type of
standards.
Mayor Thomas mentioned comments made by the public on
having an easement to the river, which the public could use
or to set aside a public park.
Councilwoman Lichter stated she was going to halt on that
right now but it would be on the next agenda. She would
like to give it some thought.
Mayor Thomas stated the motion he understood that was
passed was they were talking about money.
Several people mentioned that’s not what was voted on.
Councilman Vincenzi asked what it said again. City Clerk
Wadsworth read the motion.
Councilwoman Lichter suggested they let it go now and she
will think about it.
Mayor Thomas reported on the meetings he has been to this
month. He wasn’t sure how someone with a full-time job
encountered this position. At the last meeting he voted on
a $199,000 design for the new pet shelter and the Police
and Fire facility on the south part of town. He assumed
they had money already set aside for the Police and Fire
Facility down there. The public has informed him we didn’t
and they voted against it on the last ballot.
City Manager Hooper informed him that was correct. What
they voted on and what he proposed to Council was to do the
design. Once they have the design done they can seek grant
opportunities and match funds. The dollars for the design
come from impact fees. The property was donated by the
hospital.
Page 21 of 52
Mayor Thomas questioned not having money for the Pet
Shelter and the Police and Fire Facility and not having
money set aside for the Police and Fire Facility. City
Manager Hooper informed him they didn’t have the money to
build it. They have money to design it.
Mayor Thomas stated he would ask more questions in the
future.
Mayor Thomas stated when he was on the campaign trail and
since has taken office, he feels there have been a lot of
allegations, accusations and disruptive comments about City
Manager Hooper. He has done some investigating and he has
talked to him and had several meetings with him to tell him
how he felt. He commented on the agreement the City has
with PEC and City Manager Hooper being part owner. He
feels they need to clear the air tonight. He asked if they
were all familiar with the contract. City Manager Hooper
presented a copy to Council. He further commented on the
contract the City has with PEC. He also commented on
having four continuing engineering contracts right now.
Mayor Thomas asked if it is possible for them to just
negotiate a contract with City Manager Hooper. City
Manager Hooper informed him no.
Mayor Thomas commented on the perception of the public.
Mayor Thomas questioned City Manager Hooper being asked to
leave Seminole County. City Manager Hooper stated in 1989
he served as their County Manager. He was a County
employee for about fifteen years, seven of that as County
Manager. He was asked to resign. He resigned and left
under a severance agreement of a year’s contract and came
back and did consulting for the County for that twelve-
month period. He further explained the clearest objection
was the County Commission at the time undergoing major
growth Their goals weren’t the same as his goals on how
to implement. He then spoke of City Council and County
Councils having to get a long with their Manager because if
there’s not trust, there’s not faith and there’s not
understanding. They were moving faster than he was
comfortable with.
Mayor Thomas then mentioned the ParkTowne Center. It looks
to him like it is a good idea. He feels City Manager
Hooper is a very intelligent person and feels they would be
Page 22 of 52
foolish to get rid of him at this point in time. He is
tired of the cutting and the slashing. He wants to go
forward and wants to get out the perception of City
government is all corrupt. He wants to go forward. He did
this to help cleanse the situation.
Mayor Thomas asked if there were any comments.
The following citizens spoke:
Dave Ross
, 2803 Needle Palm Drive, applauded Mayor Thomas
for his comments and informed him he is right on.
Chris Balmer
, 148 William Street, stated for the last five
or six years he has had the privilege of working with
individual Councilmembers as well as City Manager Hooper.
He has found him outstanding as a City Manager and he is
very well respected in the community. He mentioned City
Manager Hooper doing so much for this City. He spoke of
the business community supporting and liking City Manager
Hooper and they appreciates his leadership that he brings
to this City.
Robert Lott
, 2112 S. Riverside Drive, stated he has the
opportunity to work with many different City Managers. He
stated we have one of the best City Managers in the State
of Florida. He was glad Mayor Thomas cleared the air.
James Brown
, 141 Oak Ridge Avenue, stated it was his
pleasure to be on the Council and have City Manager Hooper
as the City Manager. You could not ask for a better person
and if they try to get rid of them that is the worse thing
they could possibly do. He is proud of the Council for not
doing so. The man has made this City a great place to
live.
Mike Visconti
, 316 Pine Breeze Drive, wished Mayor Thomas,
the Council, City Manager Hooper and City Attorney
Rosenthal a very best and healthy New Year and encouraged
them to do what they can for the best of the City.
Carol Ann Stoughton
, 2740 Evergreen Drive, asked Mayor
Thomas if the City is still in debt for $1,500,000 as she
heard the last time she came to a Council Meeting. She
asked what the City’s current debt is, especially from
FEMA.
Page 23 of 52
City Manager Hooper informed her we have no debt from FEMA.
Reimbursements have been completed. Our reserves are up to
about $1.2 million.
Ms. Stoughton asked how come we don’t have an animal
shelter started. City Manager Hooper stated they do have
one started. Tonight they are gong to be talking about the
annexation of the property. That isn’t out of those kind
of dollars. There is a special referendum fund created for
that. Just last week they approved the design of it.
Ms. Stoughton informed City Manager Hooper she has nothing
against him. She suggested City Manager Hooper concur with
the City Manager of Lake Helen because of the things he
gets accomplished. Their City is in great financial shape.
City Manager Hooper informed her he used to work for him in
Seminole County. Ms. Stoughton stated he is doing a great
job over there. She mentioned him getting insurance
through PEC. She asked City Manager Hooper if he benefits
and if there is any project that he has been behind or
benefited from by that company and how much money is that.
City Manager Hooper stated from the City of Edgewater, very
little. He informed Ms. Stoughton he would be glad to show
her invoices paid to PEC.
Ms. Stoughton asked if the land he owns in River Edge Acres
is near the 16-story planned unit. City Manager Hooper
informed her the property is at the corner of Riverside and
Lincoln. Councilwoman Rhodes and Councilwoman Lichter
stated that is where he lives.
Ms. Stoughton stated she just wanted to question it as a
taxpayer.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated the buck stops here. In the six
years she has been on this Council, City Manager Hooper has
never done anything this Council did not direct him to do.
Dominic Capria
, 606 Topside Circle, asked how much money
the City received from FEMA. City Manager Hooper informed
him in round terms $5.5 million.
Jeanne DelNigro
, 3130 Tamarind Drive, stated City Manager
Hooper and her go back a long way. He’s pretty good. He’s
very intelligent. He knows what he’s doing. Give him a
chance. He’s not going to put Edgewater under.
Page 24 of 52
Andy Anderson
, Pine Tree Drive, stated he has known City
Manager Hooper since he joined the City and he feels he is
an honorable man.
Councilwoman Rogers stated before she decided to run she
went in and met with City Manager Hooper. She commented on
the time City Manager Hooper spent with her explaining and
going over things. She spoke of the time he took to meet
with her or talk to her on the phone. He treated her like
a human being. The position he has with the City as well
as his company, the man has a lot of class and she doesn’t
say that about everybody. What Mayor Thomas has heard, she
has also heard negative things too. When you’re new and
you’re not familiar with a lot of stuff you tend to listen
but in the end you ultimately go back to your first
impression of somebody. She feels if someone has a problem
with City Manager Hooper, they should show her where he has
done something wrong. Otherwise, she doesn’t’ want to hear
it anymore.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on being in politics and
being involved in government for fifty-two years. During
that time, she was on many Charter committees and didn’t
even want a City Manager. She believed in a strong mayor
form of government. Things have changed. She spoke of how
lucky they are to have an engineer as our City Manager.
She feels he is the best manager in Volusia County. She
spoke of City Managers and County Managers generally not
lasting more than five years. We are so lucky that he
loves the river, likes to fish and wants to live here. She
thanked City Manager Hooper for being a good City Manager.
Mayor Thomas stated Councilwoman Rhodes is correct. We are
the checks and balances. Councilwoman Rogers is correct.
He is also tired of hearing it. Mayor Thomas questioned
how he could do a good job wondering if the Council is
going to fire him. He stated they all gave him a shot in
the arm and he knows what direction to go now and he
appreciated that.
5. CITIZEN COMMENTS
The following citizens spoke:
Andy Anderson
, Pine Tree Drive, stated he has already
mentioned this to some of the City leadership about grants
to the City. He talked with Mayor Thomas about it and he
Page 25 of 52
concurs with his suggestion. He mentioned the money Lynne
Plaskett has been getting for the City of New Smyrna Beach.
He also mentioned grants that are being obtained in Oak
Hill. He feels they need to zero in on getting money for
the City from the State and Federal. He stated the more
they can get from these grants the more things they can get
for the City without taxpayers having to fork over all this
money. He feels this has to be done in an expertise kind
of way. He feels we need to find out what Ms. Plaskett and
Oak Hill are doing and get some of that money for this
City. He commented on all the money they have in
Washington.
Mayor Thomas asked if there is anyone getting grants.
Councilwoman Lichter informed him Lynne Plaskett is the
City’s grant writer. Mayor Thomas asked if there are any
departments not trying to get them. City Manager Hooper
informed him no. Mr. Anderson stated he would like to see
some results now.
Mike Schmitt
, Mission Oaks, stated they haven’t made a deal
with anyone on the drainage problem yet. He hasn’t seen
any proposals from anyone and hasn’t received any phone
calls. He has nothing to tell the people and he doesn’t
know what is going on. They found out the first seventy
feet from Mission Road back on that canal was given away
ten years ago, which might have been illegal. They have a
long way to go before Mission Oaks approves anything.
John Cordeiro
, 1515 Pine Tree Drive, commented on attending
the Smart Growth Meeting last Tuesday night. All it was
was more smoke and mirrors. Everyone agreed with all the
growth in Volusia County, a big problem is coming with
regards to schools, roads, water and sewer. The County
won’t even fix the problems they have now, such as the
flooding in west Volusia. He commented on them letting
builders build in low lands not caring about the people who
get flooded out. He feels money comes first, not people.
He commented on the County causing the flooding problem in
Mission Oaks. He commented on the change in some of the
Council people because the taxpayers were not happy how the
City was being run. They still are not happy. He feels
City Manager Hooper’s top priority should be to protect our
City and do what the taxpayers want. This is not
happening. It seems like he is working for the developers.
If he can’t change and work for the people who pay his
paycheck, he should design. It is up to the Mayor and
Page 26 of 52
Council to hire someone that will work for the good of
Edgewater and it’s citizens, not for millionaire
developers. He feels the lives of the people who live on
Jones Fish Camp Road will be ruined if they let the two
twin towers go through. He feels money is the root of all
evil.
Mike Visconti
, 316 Pine Breeze Drive, disagreed with Mr.
Cordeiro. He feels Edgewater is one of the finest cities
in Volusia County. He spoke of Edgewater growing. He
feels we have a beautiful City. He feels our City Manager
is one of the best in the State of Florida and he told City
Manager Hooper not to let anyone take him down because he
is doing a great job.
Carol Ann Stoughton
, 2740 Evergreen Drive, stated two years
ago she was paying $1,400 a year in taxes. Because of
growth, she is now paying $2,600 in taxes. She moved from
one location to another with smaller square footage and a
smaller piece of property. She feels her taxes are
horrendous. She commented on the For Sale signs going up.
She commented on paying County fees and questioned why they
have to pay these if they live in the City. If she would
have known that, she would have lived in the County. She
spoke of one of her neighbor’s taxes being $5,000. She
spoke of the County reassessing their properties, which is
mandated every so many years. Before you know it, you’re
not going to have young or old people in this town. She
commented on a house on Riverside Drive that has been sold
over and over again. She feels something has to stop.
They have to give something back to the poor residents. If
we are in such a good financial standings, why can’t they
get, stead of taxes being raised, taxes being reduced.
Something has to give. It’s a sin. Edgewater was the
lowest. She commented on the growth in Port St. Lucy. She
got out because of taxes. If it keeps on going, she is
going to have to move out. She will make a profit on her
house but she will not pay anymore than she is paying now.
She has two exemptions and she is paying $2,600.
Mayor Thomas compared the gas prices from a year ago and
what they are now. They live in Edgewater too and are
going to do everything they can to cut the budget and lower
the taxes. We are in a contract with the County on certain
things.
Page 27 of 52
City Manager Hooper commented on the County having two
types of millage. Our tax rate has not gone up. Our
value, there’s no doubt, has gone up.
Ms. Stoughton feels something has to be done to lower taxes
for people. She isn’t getting any more for services. Any
growth the City’s gets does not lower her taxes. She
informed Mayor Thomas he is doing a good job. She was his
campaign treasurer and she is proud he is in office as well
as everyone else.
Councilwoman Rogers commented on the three percent tax
increase per year, Amendment 10. From year to year, your
taxable value should not increase more than 3% and if it
does they need to alert Volusia County. She commented on
all the taxes that are on your tax bill and suggested
people go to each of the governing agencies and fight them
too. We are just one piece of the millage.
Andy Anderson
, Pine Tree Drive, stated he understands there
are 67 counties in the State. Out of the 67, he
understands there are only about seven or eight counties
that have to fork over money for the local hospitals. City
Manager Hooper explained there are several districts
created by the legislature. There are many more than seven
or eight.
Mr. Anderson asked how many. City Manager Hooper estimated
forty or fifty districts and informed Mr. Anderson they are
districts, not counties. Mr. Anderson questioned a
district overlapping into another county. City Manager
Hooper informed him that was correct.
Mr. Anderson questioned if some people are taxes that way,
why isn’t the whole State taxed like that. Why should only
a select few districts be charged for the local hospital
and other areas of the State are not? City Manager Hooper
explained some are public hospitals and some are private
hospitals. They are set up totally different.
6.PUBLIC HEARINGS, ORDINANCES AND RESOLUTIONS
A.Public Hearing, Dr. David Chess appealing the
City Manager’s interpretation of Section 21-17
“Non-Conforming Uses” of the City of Edgewater
Land Development Code for property located at 930
S. Ridgewood Avenue
Page 28 of 52
Dr. David Chess stated he has been working with City
Manager Hooper for a year and it’s been challenging but he
has been nothing but professional. He is extremely
knowledgeable. He thanked City Manager Hooper.
Dr. Chess brought the Council up to date. He is trying to
put to use a pre-Edgewater building. There are two
remaining on U.S. #1 that pre-date the City. This building
was built in 1920 and the church was built in 1914. He
read from a letter he submitted to the Council into the
record. He stated this building because of its historic
nature is not going to conform to the City uses. He would
like to do some things to clean it up. He feels it should
be maintained in as much of its architectural style as
possible. He put in for some permits a year ago to enclose
the porch. He feels it should remain in its natural state.
He has had to use this as a second home for a year and it
has been kind of expensive because that wasn’t his plan
initially. He is attempting to get the Council to give him
an exemption on this building and allow it to be
economically viable so he can maintain it and so the future
of this building is secure.
City Manager Hooper made a staff presentation.
Dr. Chess stated he wants to maintain it in its original
shape. He doesn’t want to pave it and he doesn’t want to
concrete it. He agreed to put some shellrock over it but
felt it should maintain. It should be one of the two
buildings that has the look just like the church at the
other end of the cemetery. There are at least twelve
businesses in the City that have been grandfathered in with
similar parking lots that are not historical buildings.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated but when those buildings change
hands they will have to be brought up to code. Dr. Chess
stated this is a historical building and bringing it up to
Code will detract from it tremendously. Councilwoman
Rhodes stated what they are asking him to do or what the
Code is asking him to do doesn’t change that building at
all. By conforming to the code, it doesn’t change the look
of that building at all. Dr. Chess felt it would change a
tremendous amount of the architectural picture of what you
are seeing.
Page 29 of 52
Councilwoman Lichter feels it should be designated as
historical. Dr. Chess feels this is the most backward city
in Florida regarding its historical sites.
Councilwoman Lichter questioned if there is an official way
to designated the building as being historical. City
Manager Hooper explained there is an official way and the
Land Development Code describes that. With the help of
Development Services Director Darren Lear, they explained
how this is done. Councilwoman Lichter asked if their
requirements may or may not be different if it is a
designated historic building. She imagined safety would
have to apply. Councilwoman Rhodes stated if it was
declared historical you wouldn’t be able to close in the
front porch. Councilwoman Lichter stated they keep saying
it is historical but she didn’t now that. Dr. Chess stated
it was built in 1920 and has importance to this City
because it pre-dates the City.
Councilwoman Lichter asked Dr. Chess if it would behoove
him to have it declared a historical building. Dr. Chess
stated he wasn’t sure. The problem he has had in Edgewater
is there is one person who declares whatever it is, it is
and she says she didn’t have documentation. The City has
almost nothing left making considerations for the future
for people to see what Hawks Park looked like. This will
become quite valuable to them in the future. He commented
on the old hospital not being used and being torn down.
Councilwoman Lichter asked City Manager Hooper if there are
different requirements if is building is declared historic.
City Manager Hooper stated not really. They would be
protecting the structure and the archeological view of the
outside and the architectural view of the structure itself.
If you are going to have the public go into a commercial
facility, you need handicapped parking and paved parking.
Councilwoman Lichter mentioned needing certain things.
Mayor Thomas stated if he is going to use it as a business
he needs to have it up to code. Councilwoman Rhodes
mentioned it needed to be safe. Dr. Chess mentioned there
are twelve businesses minimum on U.S. #1 that have
shellrock driveways and parking lots. Councilwoman Rhodes
informed him they were talking about the inside. Dr. Chess
informed her yes it should be up to code inside. City
Manager Hooper commented on the Fire Marshal doing an
inspection and those things in general having been done.
Page 30 of 52
Councilwoman Lichter asked who ordered the site plan to be
done by Mr. Geil. Dr. Chess informed her he did. AS he
went through this long cycle of what this building should
be and it became more apparent to him what it should be he
was moving forward in the drainage and making this into
something it isn’t. At one point, he decided to change
this forever to what it is not. It is much better as what
it is. As far as he is concerned the shellrock is the
original parking and that is what was in this City. He
commented on there only being two possibilities on the
whole corridor that would be exempt.
Councilwoman Lichter mentioned Mr. Geil including in the
site plan concrete paving with curbing. Dr. Chess stated
that is what the City has asked for. He feels it is a
mistake. There is no drainage issue because there is
natural percolation. When you start concreting and
asphalting everything, that is where the runoff and all of
the problems have occurred.
Councilwoman Rogers asked about the properties on U.S. #1
and when they change hands they have to comply with the
Land Development Code as it is now. Dr. Chess stated not
if it’s had an occupational licensed and a business and
questioned if it transfers. City Manager Hooper informed
him not necessarily. It depends on the use. If the use
changes, then it has to be brought up to code. This was a
residential that went to commercial and that is a major
change in use.
Councilwoman Rogers commented on this being a medical
facility. She doesn’t know of another medical facility on
U.S. #1 that does not have pavement and handicapped
parking. Dr. Chess stated there are no other buildings
other than the church that are like this. Councilwoman
Rhodes expressed concern with people getting hurt. Dr.
Chess feels soft ground is a much more natural ground than
asphalt. Your chances of getting hurt on asphalt and
concrete are much greater. Councilwoman Rhodes
respectfully disagreed.
Councilwoman Lichter feels if it is historical building it
could get a proper designation and that might change some
of her perception. Dr. Chess stated it is still a
residence because he has been occupying it and that is his
other option to continue occupying it as a residence or
Page 31 of 52
rent it. He feels moving forward into a commercial
designation might be pretty smart as they advance forward.
He also feels turning it into something that it isn’t might
be a mistake in the future.
Councilwoman Rogers informed Dr. Chess he has, the house.
Historical preservation is for a structure not a driveway.
If you get the historical designation for the property then
that will protect the building and has nothing to do with
the parking lot.
Mayor Thomas opened the public hearing.
The following citizens spoke:
Mike Visconti
, 316 Pine Breeze Drive, asked if there is a
used car lot next to him. Mayor Thomas informed him that
was correct. Mr. Visconti believed Mr. Mitchell owned the
property and was in the process of going before Planning
and Zoning to tear that building down and put a new
building there.
Carol Ann Stoughton
, 2740 Evergreen Drive, feels it is a
beautiful building and that Dr. Chess has been more than
patient with the past Mayor and Council. She sees nothing
wrong with a driveway like there is now. She commented on
breaking her hip when she fell on asphalt and feels if she
fell there she wouldn’t break anything. He has the
drainage and just wants to beautify the place. She feels
the man has extended himself and come before Council. He
wants to run a business in town. He’s a professional man.
She feels it would be a great business. She feels the
Council has the powers to give him what he wants. Let him
run a business. Let him have what he wants.
Mayor Thomas stated that’s fine as long as he brings it up
to code.
Councilwoman Rhodes questioned why everyone else has to
bring their building up to code but not him.
Ms. Stoughton stated the City has collected taxes on it and
it’s not up to code. He has paid taxes and has a non-use
now for what he wants to use it for. She stated bringing
it up to code, she thinks there are exemptions and
questioned if churches are brought up to code. They don’t
even pay taxes yet he wants to have a business there and
Page 32 of 52
she feels he can modify it and she thinks there are
exceptions for buildings made in that year. She hoped the
Council would try to help this man because no one else has.
Whether he has a shell road or not, she feels he should be
allowed to have a business. She questioned what they want
him to do with it, how much more they want him to spend and
how much more time do they want him to waste?
Karen Mason
, 1847 Coco Palm Drive, commented on people in
wheelchairs not being able to navigate in sand or in
crushed stones and she doesn’t think people on crutches or
with a cane could either.
John Cordeiro
, 1515 Pine Tree Drive, commented on what Dr.
Chess has done to fix up the inside of the house. It is
beautiful. He wants to open up a business. Maybe he could
bring a couple jobs to the area. He asked Council if this
makes a difference to them. How can you keep him from not
opening up a business? He spent all that money.
Mayor Thomas closed the public hearing.
Councilman Vincenzi asked City Manager Hooper what he wants
him to change to bring it up to code. City Manager Hooper
stated he wanted him to pave the driveway in for paved
parking and put in some drainage retention. Right now the
drainage from the roof runs off, runs to U.S. #1, there’s
no pretreatment and it runs directly into the river. They
have been looking at paving, drainage, and landscaping
which is typical of all site plans.
Mayor Thomas entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Rhodes moved not to grant an exception in this
case. She doesn’t think it affects the historical value of
the house and everybody else has to do it. Councilwoman
Rogers seconded the motion.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0
.
st
B.
1 Reading, Ord. No. 2006-O-02, the City of
Edgewater requesting annexation of 17.63+ acres
of property located at 3930 South US 1
City Manager Hooper made a staff presentation.
Paralegal Matusick read Ord. 2006-O-02 into the record.
Page 33 of 52
City Manager Hooper continued his staff presentation.
Due to there being no comments, Mayor Thomas opened and
closed the public hearing and entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Rhodes moved to approve Ord. 2006-O-02, the
City of Edgewater requesting annexation of 17.63+ acres of
property located at 3930 South US 1, second by Councilwoman
Rogers.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0.
There was a ten-minute recess at this time. The meeting
recessed at 9:28 p.m. and reconvened at 9:38 p.m.
nd
C.2 Reading, Ord. No. 2005-O-49, Glenn Storch,
Worthington Creek Investment, Inc., requesting an
amendment to the Official Zoning Map to include
155.64+ acres of land located west of US 1 and
northwest of William Street as RPUD (Residential
Planned Unit Development) and approval of
st
Reading 12/5/05,
associated RPUD Agreement (1
Item 6C)
Paralegal Matusick read Ord. 2005-O-49 into the record.
City Manager Hooper made a staff presentation. He then
went over the master plan.
Mike Evans, 1682 W. Hibiscus, Melbourne, commented on the
lot sizes and setbacks when they originally started and
what they have been changed to. He spoke of agreeing to
single story homes along the southern boundary. He further
commented on the mosquito control ditches not being
maintained. The County has begun cleaning out all of the
mosquito control ditches. He spoke of improving low areas
that are not on their property but are on the subdivision
to the south. He also commented on agreeing to a landscape
buffer/fence that will go along the southern line. They
are also installing reuse lines.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked City Manager Hooper about new
subdivisions contracting for their own refuse collection
instead of expanding the City fleet. City Manager Hooper
commented on it being difficult and explained what happens.
He spoke of areas being too small for a company to come in
Page 34 of 52
and this not being financially practical for that to
happen.
Councilwoman Rogers asked if the traffic impact study has
been started for this project. Mr. Evans informed her it
has been started.
Councilwoman Rogers then asked about the environmental
impact study that needs to be done. Mr. Evans informed her
that has been completed and is being updated again.
Councilwoman Rogers expressed concern with the lot widths.
She asked if there is a way to have more of those at sixty-
five and seventy-five feet wide instead of the majority
begin at fifty-five feet wide. Mr. Evans explained why the
most sought after size lots in the State of Florida are
fifty and fifty-five foot lots. He further spoke of large
lots having larger homes and this not being affordable.
Councilwoman Rogers mentioned some of the other
subdivisions that have fifty and fifty-five foot lots. She
explained at the Land Development Code workshop on Saturday
they are going to be talking about lot widths and wanting
to establish a minimum. City Manager Hooper explained all
of the applicable codes are the current adopted Land
Development Code. Councilwoman Rogers then asked if he
would have to comply with the new changes. City Manager
Hooper commented on them making application under the
current Land Development Code. Councilwoman Rogers then
spoke of being stuck again. Mr. Evans commented on it
having the same land use in the County that it has in the
City it just wasn’t zoned. Councilwoman Rogers again
expressed concern with smaller lot widths.
Councilwoman Lichter mentioned larger lots being
unaffordable.
Councilwoman Rogers questioned the minimum for these homes.
Mr. Evans explained it depends on the market at the time.
Councilwoman Rogers spoke of people not being able to
afford a $200,000 home based upon our average wage.
Councilwoman Lichter stated she would waive the discussion
on lot sizes for Saturday. She thinks there are legalities
involved in this. She spoke of moving forward. They can’t
keep saying what happened in the past. She spoke of the
developers having more sense on what will sell and they
Page 35 of 52
build to sell. She feels they are talking about affordable
housing. The more footage they add to that lot the more
the cost goes up. She feels they have to look at the total
project. She feels it s a good one and they have made some
compromises.
Councilman Vincenzi asked about the brown area in the lower
right having two roads going through it. Mr. Evans
explained that is a road network laid out.
Councilman Vincenzi then asked about this being property
next to the mosquito ditch. Mr. Evans commented on a
fifty-foot easement they are granting to the City to have
access to those ditches. Councilman Vincenzi commented on
the subdivision being split down the middle. Mr. Evans
explained as they go through engineering some of that stuff
will change a little bit.
Councilman Vincenzi feels there is no such thing as
affordable housing anymore. He commented on why he doesn’t
feel this is a particularly good design. Mr. Evans
commented on this having little impact on the wetlands.
Councilman Vincenzi feels Smart Growth is a good idea if
you’re into the principles. He feels developers use Smart
Growth principles to their advantage but you call it
clustering and it’s not real clustering. It’s cramming
houses together and digging out little areas and piling
dirt on where you will build so you have less that you can
build on so now your clustering houses on this filled area
where you can build on. Mr. Evans stated no. Councilman
Vincenzi feels this isn’t Smart Growth. Of all the Smart
Growth tools he doesn’t see where many apply to this one.
He again stated he doesn’t think it is a good development
and it’s not a good design.
Mayor Thomas spoke of meeting with City Manager Hooper and
Mr. Evans. He also looked at an aerial. He brought up the
same thing about bigger lots and his explanation was on the
backside they are going to be living next to a railroad
track. He questioned how they would sell $500,000 houses
next to a railroad track so he had to agree with him on
smaller lots. He commented on this being a developable
piece of property. He further spoke of the drainage
ditches that are already there. He is very familiar with
the property due to patrolling it for years. He feels this
is a pretty good development.
Page 36 of 52
Councilwoman Rogers doesn’t see where it is going to help
the City by allowing him to build on fifty-five foot wide
lots by making it economically viable for the developer.
She spoke of transportation and water not being discussed
very much last Tuesday night. She has been told the City
is fine on the water end because we have permits for wells
in the future. She expressed concern with transportation.
With all of the subdivisions coming in, she feels they are
going to have a mess before they can get it fixed.
Councilwoman Rhodes had no problem with fifty foot lots
because the older she gets the more she wants to live on a
fifty-foot lot. She can see where retired people would
want that. She pays more attention to density and would
like to see less people. She asked Mr. Evans if they said
they could only have seventy-five foot lots as a minimum
lot size, what they would do. Mr. Evans stated he would
certainly have to look at that to make it feasible. He
commented on this also being a marketing issue. Variety is
what is going to be marketed. Councilwoman Rhodes stated
we don’t care if we have variety. We don’t care if one
more person moves into this City. She feels it is every
landowners right to have reasonable use of their property.
She would rather see smaller lots and save the wetlands.
Mayor Thomas asked if this is going to be a gated
community. Mr. Evans informed him it would and they will
have a homeowners association to maintain the roads. They
will all be private.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on a place where a
homeowners association lessens the impact on City
facilities with Code Enforcement addressing them. She
spoke of the rules and regulations in Edgewater Landing
being more stringent than the City codes.
Councilwoman Rogers questioned Edgewater Landing being a
senior community. This is not going to be a senior
community so somebody could go in there, buy in there and
then eventually it becomes rental property. Councilwoman
Lichter informed her they can rent in Edgewater Landing
also. Mr. Evans stated there are very strict rules about
that through the homeowners association declarations.
Mayor Thomas opened the public hearing.
The following citizen spoke:
Page 37 of 52
Fay Levine
, 4588 Lake James Circle, pointed out on a map
where she lives. She commented on being on the northeast
corner of the lake. The community is called Shady Oaks,
which is located north of Ariel Road. When she bought this
property she was told it was all County land. A couple of
months ago she was told Edgewater was right across the road
now. She commented on the conflict between Edgewater and
Oak Hill and who stops where. She is being squeezed
between Oak Hill and Edgewater. When they heard about this
coming in all of them were concerned about drainage
problems. Mike Evans and his staff has been more helpful
listening to their concerns. They could have very easily
turned their backs but they didn’t. They have helped them
with the County people. She isn’t entirely in favor of
this project but the City is dealing with a developer that
listens and she feels this is the most important thing
here. He has reduced the density on that south side
because their property has larger lots. She owns two acres
of land there, with other lots being larger. She spoke of
still having to wait for the site plan to be approved and
her neighborhood would like to see that site plan. They
are happy to hear that they have decided to put larger lots
on the south side with single-story homes. She guessed she
was speaking in favor of this. She again mentioned the
developers listening to their concerns.
Mayor Thomas closed the public hearing and entertained a
motion.
Councilwoman Rhodes moved to approve Ord. 2005-O-49, Glenn
Storch, Worthington Creek Investment, Inc., requesting an
amendment to the Official Zoning Map to include 155.64+
acres of land located west of US 1 and northwest of William
Street as RPUD (Residential Planned Unit Development) and
approval of associated RPUD Agreement and the comments and
concessions made by Mr. Evans, second by Councilwoman
Lichter
.
Councilman Vincenzi asked for a summary of exactly what Mr.
Evans has done. Councilwoman Rhodes stated what he has
done is said one-story houses. Councilman Vincenzi wants
it on paper.
Mr. Evans stated the only two things he thinks are not in
the agreement are the one story houses and the building up
of the two swales that are on the south side of the ditch.
Page 38 of 52
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0
.
nd
D.2 Reading, Ord. No. 2005-O-50, Glenn Storch,
agent for John and Patricia Hickey, (Julington
Oaks) requesting an amendment to the Official
Zoning Map to include 29.20+ acres of land
located west of US1 and north of Clinton Cemetery
Road as RPUD (Residential Planned Unit
Development) and approval of associated RPUD
st
Agreement (1 Reading 12/5/05, Item 6D)
Paralegal Matusick read Ord. 2005-O-50 into the record.
City Manager Hooper made a staff presentation.
Mike Evans, 1682 W. Hibiscus, Melbourne, was available to
answer any questions on this project.
Mayor Thomas disclosed he met with Mr. Evans. He
questioned if this was adjacent to the property they just
did. Mr. Evans explained there is some property that
separates that and then you have Clinton Cemetery Road and
then this piece.
Councilwoman Rogers commented on still having the Snowden
piece of property to deal with and the McCaskill piece of
property to deal with.
Due to there being no comments, Mayor Thomas opened and
closed the public hearing.
Mayor Thomas asked the size of the lots. Mr. Evans
informed him 60 X 120.
Mayor Thomas entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Lichter moved to approve Ord. 2005-O-50, Glenn
Storch, agent for John and Patricia Hickey, (Julington
Oaks) requesting an amendment to the Official Zoning Map to
include 29.20+ acres of land located west of US1 and north
of Clinton Cemetery Road as RPUD (Residential Planned Unit
Development) and approval of associated RPUD Agreement,
second by Councilwoman Rhodes
.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0
.
Page 39 of 52
nd
E.2 Reading, Ord. No. 2005-O-57, Robert E.
Jalbert, Sr., previous owner who transferred the
property to Douglas Klein, requesting an
amendment to the Official Zoning Map to include
1.15+ acres of property located at 3208 Eels
Grove Road as RT (Rural Transitional)
Paralegal Matusick read Ord. 2005-O-57 into the record.
City Manager Hooper made a staff presentation.
Due to there being no comments, Mayor Thomas opened and
closed the public hearing and entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Lichter moved to approve Ord. 2005-O-57,
Robert E. Jalbert, Sr., previous owner who transferred the
property to Douglas Klein, requesting an amendment to the
Official Zoning Map to include 1.15+ acres of property
located at 3208 Eels Grove Road as RT (Rural Transitional),
second by Councilwoman Rhodes
.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0
.
st
F.1 Reading, Ord. No. 2006-O-01, Scott Tobin,
applicant for Mid Florida Investments, LLC,
(River Oaks) requesting an amendment to the
Official Zoning Map to include 30.01+ acres of
land located east of US1 and north of Jones Fish
Camp Road
Paralegal Matusick read Ord. 2006-O-01 into the record.
Glenn Storch
, law firm of Storch, Morris & Harris,
commented on issues that were expressed that he is trying
to deal with. He is placing a conservation easement over
15 acres of the project, which means that nothing will ever
touch that land.
Attorney Storch also informed Council they are providing
for a clubhouse, tennis, a children’s playground, and a
possible 42 boat slips.
Attorney Storch further commented on the zoning and the
density allowing up to 360 units and them only having 308
units.
Page 40 of 52
Scott Tobin
, 2970 S. Atlantic Avenue, Daytona Beach Shores,
introduced himself.
Attorney Storch went on to speak about the building
coverage, the impervious surface, the open space, and the
conservation easement. He also spoke about the uses that
will be permitted on this property. In order to change
this, they would have to go through a full scale zoning
process. He also commented on once this development
agreement goes through and is recorded in the public
records, any future owner couldn’t change it without coming
back to the City as a rezoning. He mentioned development
agreements and PUD agreements locking everything in.
Attorney Storch further commented on Smart Growth concepts
and this meeting the Smart Growth criteria of clustering
and preserving large areas of green space.
Attorney Storch then commented on comparing what they could
do as opposed to what they are proposing.
Attorney Storch then spoke about land clearing. He spoke
of with traditional development the site would have to be
wiped clean with trees being replanted on the property.
Attorney Storch informed the Council that a vast majority
of the area would be totally preserved. The only areas
they will not be preserving are the entrance road areas,
the area for the condominium buildings and the area for
stormwater retention.
Attorney Storch further commented on stormwater runoff. He
explained by minimizing the amount of impervious surface it
would also minimize the amount of pesticides and fertilizer
going into the river.
Attorney Storch spoke more about the conservation easement.
He also commented on the area that will be left open for
the towers and there being access to the river by way of a
dock and walkway down to the river through the estuary.
Attorney Storch mentioned that with River Oaks they would
have 24 acres of open space and the mature trees and
natural vegetation would be preserved.
Attorney Storch commented on with typical development you
have numerous small builders, little control by the
Page 41 of 52
developer and small crews with sporadic employment. If
they build it, they will maintain control and bring in
qualified local contractors and vendors.
Attorney Storch further spoke about sales employment with
typical development and having various realtors. They
committed that they would have a full-time local sales
force and that they would encourage local brokers to work
with them. He also commented on having a full-time staff,
including management and maintenance to utilize the
condominium building.
Attorney Storch then went on to speak about there being a
low demand on city services. He encouraged the City to
speak to Daytona Beach Shores or New Smyrna where they
already have high-rise luxury buildings.
Attorney Storch went on to speak about impact fees and the
tax revenue that would be generated in the first year by
comparing typical multi-family or typical townhouses and
the luxury condominiums.
Attorney Storch commented on the condominiums being less
dense, less services being required and there being more
taxable income to the city with the luxury condominiums.
He spoke of condominiums not being able to be homesteaded
and typical development that can be homesteaded, only
increasing three percent per year.
Attorney Storch went on to speak about school impact. He
went over statistics provided by the School Board.
Attorney Storch asked Sans Lassiter to speak to the Council
about the traffic impact.
Sans Lassiter
, Lassiter Transportation Group, 536 North
Halifax, Suite 101, Daytona Beach, presented his
credentials.
Mr. Lassiter compared the traffic impact for luxury
condominiums verses multi-family. You get a much reduced
traffic impact from luxury high-rise condos than you do
from multi-family at a hundred percent occupancy.
Attorney Storch feels this particular land use is one of
the best land uses you can have as far as minimizing the
traffic impact. Mr. Lassiter included particularly due to
Page 42 of 52
the fact that they are high-rise luxury condominiums with a
standard low occupancy
Attorney Storch went on to speak about emergency services
and the police and fire impact fees being paid under this
proposal being $72,000, which would go directly to police
and fire.
Attorney Storch then spoke about the buildings being
protected by an automatic fire sprinkler and having a
stand-pipe system, which will provide additional
firefighting ability to all floors.
Attorney Storch went on to speak about the water and sewer
impact fees being a million dollars, smaller public
infrastructure requirements and the City having sufficient
capacity with all of the existing systems.
Attorney Storch explained the height of 190 feet, including
architectural treatments, is required to preserve the open
space, allowing for the conservation, large setbacks and to
limit the environmental impact.
Councilman Vincenzi questioned the trees here being taller
than in Orlando. He took a walk at work and there’s plenty
of five, six, and seven-story office buildings. No matter
where he stood, five floors or above, he could see above
the trees. Attorney Storch informed him it depends on how
much distance there is between you and the office building.
One of the photographs showed a picture taken at
riverfront, which is 600 feet back with a helicopter at 190
feet. Councilman Vincenzi didn’t believe this to be true.
He felt there was something wrong and that it’s not a true
rendition of what’s out there. Mr. Tobin further explained
the trees they were looking at are about twenty feet from
the river’s edge. He further mentioned these trees being
in the conservation easement and always being there. Mr.
Tobin also stated the farther back you get, the more of the
buildings you will see.
There was a brief discussion regarding the view from U.S.
#1.
City Manager Hooper further commented on the view from the
river and the view from U.S. #1.
Page 43 of 52
Attorney Storch commented on dealing with the issue of the
Council not wanting to see this from the river or from U.
S. #1. They have tried to put it back as far as they could
on both sides. It is clearly buffered by these
environmental corridors and that’s how they’re dealing with
it.
Attorney Storch then commented on being very proud of this
project. He feels this project is a good thing for
Edgewater from a tax standpoint, for providing additional
types of residential structures and for providing the type
of development everyone can be proud of. He feels from an
environmental standpoint, they will not see anything else
in Edgewater where there is over 50% of the land being
totally preserved forever. He further spoke about the
density and traditional development on this site including
between forty and sixty buildings on the site at two or
three-stories. He has tried to do everything he could to
mitigate this particular development because he wanted to
make sure it is something that all of Edgewater could be
proud of.
City Manager Hooper made a staff presentation.
Councilman Vincenzi asked what happened to the negotiated
heights. Mayor Thomas informed him they could do whatever
they’d like. Councilman Vincenzi stated he liked the
project but he wasn’t going to vote for a 16-story one.
City Manager Hooper informed him if it comes down, it’s got
to sprawl out. You’re looking at 50 percent open space by
letting them go up.
Mayor Thomas asked for Council comments.
Councilwoman Lichter feels this conforms to Smart Growth
more than anything she has seen. She feels the community
needs all types of housing. She also feels this uses less
of the City’s resources than anything she has seen. She
stated she was gong to vote in favor of this project.
Councilwoman Rhodes commented on having to go for jury duty
and speaking to a lady there from Edgewater about this.
She has been trying to find one person that would tell her
sprawl is better and she has not been able to do that. She
feels this is a better use for the property. She tried to
Page 44 of 52
find a different opinion so somebody could change her mind
and she wasn’t able to do that.
Councilman Vincenzi had nothing else to say.
Councilwoman Rogers expressed concern with the height and
the fact that this piece of property isn’t going to have
any public access. She would rather see more buildings.
She spoke of this property not having the wetlands on it
that some other properties have.
Mr. Tobin informed her the property has one small area of
natural wetlands, which is part of the conservation area.
He also informed her what they are preserving is buildable
land.
Councilwoman Rogers stated she would like to see this have
more buildings at a lower height. She also commented on
having a lot of river frontage right now that the public
doesn’t have access to.
Attorney Storch informed Council one of the reasons they
have two buildings is so they can face those away from
Boston Whaler.
Councilwoman Rogers feels the bottom line is money. The
condos will bring in more money because of the view. She
questioned if her job is to help the developer make more
money or to look out for the City. Attorney Storch
informed her it is to look out for the City. He stated it
does cost a lot more money to build high-rise luxury
condominiums than to build two or three-story units.
Councilwoman Rogers feels if they had a few more buildings
and the height was lowered, they would still have great
dollars coming into the City.
Attorney Storch informed her if you do not have the views
of the river, then you cannot sell this as luxury
condominiums. He also commented on there being an
industrial area close to this.
Mr. Tobin explained with a PUD agreement, each project is
its own project. There is no precedent. He didn’t know of
any other project where a developer is going to come in and
offer to put 15 acres of prime riverfront property in a
permanent conservation easement.
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Councilwoman Rogers informed him if they had more
buildings, then they’re going to have more non-pervious
surfaces and they are gong to be required to have some of
it left open and green for drainage.
Mr. Tobin informed her if they have to spread out, they
would have a lot more impervious surface. Their green
areas would be landscaped areas that would be treated with
pesticides and fertilizer. To spread it out would change
everything they talked about as far as the impacts of
traffic and the impacts to schools increasing while the tax
base would decrease. He mentioned by putting an easement
on this site, they are making sure that none of these
precedents that people are worried about would ever happen.
He commented on the positives to the height issue such as
being able to conserve all this land and not having the
negative impacts that spreading this out would have to both
the environment and the City, both economically and
socially.
Attorney Storch feels although sixteen stories sounds like
a lot, in this particular case, it will literally have no
impact.
There was a brief discussion regarding New Smyrna Beach
having condos this tall on the ocean side.
Mayor Thomas asked Attorney Storch if you could stand at
the corner of SR 442 and US 1 and see this. Attorney
Storch informed him he didn’t know. Mayor Thomas stated
I’ll bet you can.
Councilwoman Rhodes commented on sprawling out houses or
two or three stories buildings and being able to see them
because all of the vegetation would be gone. She would
rather stand at SR 442 and US 1 and see the top of the
building than drive down US 1 and see the total area
decimated.
David Hood informed Council he is part of the same company
that’s doing the Port Orange development that was mentioned
and complimented. He further commented on if he were to
build several three-story buildings they would be seen
fifty feet off the river and fifty feet off of U.S. #1. He
also commented on using a great deal more of the City’s
services and the City getting a whole lot less of income.
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Attorney Hood informed Mayor Thomas he didn’t doubt if you
were far enough away that you would be able to see the
tops. But they aren’t talking about flat-topped roofs,
they are talking about expensive architectural relief
towers.
Councilman Vincenzi commented on being able to see the ones
in Port Orange from U. S. #1. Attorney Hood commented on
being able to see them from his office on Seabreeze. He
feels the thing is to make sure it is something they are
proud of and that it’s first-rate architectural relief that
doesn’t impose use on the City’s services. Attorney Hood
also informed Councilman Vincenzi they went out and checked
and if you’re sitting in a boat on the river you cannot see
it.
Attorney Hood commented on going through this time and time
again when he served as the Mayor of Ormond Beach.
Attorney Hood informed the Council if they don’t approve
this, they are going to put in three-story flat-roofed
buildings and tear down all of the trees. He didn’t
believe this is what they really wanted to do.
Attorney Storch mentioned looking at all the issues that
have been mentioned. He feels in this particular case they
have a win-win-win situation for the City, the landowner
and the environment.
Mayor Thomas opened up the public hearing.
The following citizens spoke:
John Russell
, 3045 Woodland Drive, feels the developer’s
proposal is the wisest thing for our community. He would
hate to see another Coral Trace. He spoke of this proposal
saving about 80 percent of the natural vegetation. He
feels this seems like the clear decision to make for our
community. It will bring in additional tax revenue, less
density and protect the environment. He feels it would be
less of an eyesore to have these two buildings than a ton
of buildings back-to-back right up on the river to U.S. #1.
He hoped the Council would do the right thing.
Councilwoman Rhodes commented on Coral Trace not being
finished and it looking a lot better than it does when it’s
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finished. An audience member mentioned all of the trees
being down. Councilwoman Rhodes stated they would replant.
Dave Ross
, 2803 Needle Palm Drive, commented on doing many
high-rise balloon tests and guaranteed that these people
are right about the visibility of that building.
Mr. Ross then commented on not having much of a choice
unless they want to get into a legal battle and just say
no. He questioned if the City can afford that.
Pat Card
, 3019 Willow Oak Drive, announced he serves on the
Planning and Zoning Board. He was the only one who voted
against this. He informed the Council they had a tough
decision to make. They must choose between two
alternatives that on the surface appear to be easy to
choose between. He feels it is a no-brainer and that they
should say no to growth. He further commented on not
wanting to see any condominiums off of Roberts Road.
Mr. Card also commented on the approved RPUD that is about
a thousand feet north of this site. There is an RPUD for
the condos on the old cement plant site that goes with the
sale of the land. He commented on the inconvenience to
Boston Whaler if 35-foot homes and townhouses are built
next to Boston Whaler. He hopes they build the condos or
nothing at all. He would be a fool not to begin
st
construction by June 21. He feels it is not likely that
the developer would throw that much money away.
Mr. Card further commented on the likelihood of having
condominiums a thousand feet to the north. He feels with
more people you have more problems with City services and
traffic.
Mr. Card only wants responsible growth. He suggested they
make it known they will build no more condos south of Jones
Fish Camp Road and that they look for responsible
development north of Jones Fish Camp Road. He then
commented on how much property will have to be saved for
wildlife and plants and how much traffic would be
generated. He also commented on more cars, more people and
it being more difficult to provide City services.
Mr. Card then spoke on the cost of these condos and whether
they will sell. He mentioned the rest of the land still
having a conservation easement on it for perpetuity and
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that easement going with the land. He spoke of the
investors being from Volusia County and having a stake in
the community because they will have to live with the
future of this building. They’re not running away like the
Melbourne developer or a developer from another part of the
state.
Mr. Card suggested that Council approve this with
conditions for conservation easement immediately and a
pledge of support for future transportation and
conservation proposals.
Robert Lott
, 2112 S. Riverside Drive, asked Mr. Card for
the record if he was for it. Mr. Card informed him yes.
Mr. Lott informed Council he paid particular attention to
tonight’s presentation because a majority of his family
lives in Edgewater. He commented on why he feels this is
the best use of this land. He spoke of the people who say
no to growth being the same people who want their taxes to
go down.
Mr. Lott further commented on New Smyrna having a lower
millage rate because they put more people in the same
footprint of land and getting more taxes. He spoke of
these being high-end condos and he feels the Council should
make this opportunity available in Edgewater. Don’t throw
the baby out with the bath water. He feels they should
make this piece of property on the river a showcase and a
place where they can offer high-end condos to our future
citizens.
Dot Carlson
, 1714 Edgewater Drive, asked how many units
they were allowed per acre in the County. City Manager
Hooper informed her the average would be eight units per
acre.
Ms. Carlson then asked how many units are allowed in the
City. City Manager Hooper informed her it has been
approved for high-density residential, which is a range
between eight and twelve.
Ms. Carlson then questioned a unit meaning a house. City
Manager Hooper informed her high density residential is
anticipated to be multi-family of some sort.
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Ms. Carlson then asked Mr. Russell if he worked for the
aerial photography that does this. Mr. Russell informed
her no.
Ms. Carlson informed Attorney Storch he did a terrific job.
John Cordeiro
, 1515 Pine Tree Drive, commented on listening
to this presentation three times and not hearing one thing
about the people living on Jones Fish Camp Road. He
further spoke on behalf of the residents that live on Fish
Camp Road. He feels now their lifestyles will be ruined
and nobody caring because it’s all about money.
City Manager Hooper informed Mayor Thomas Mr. Cordeiro
needed to address the Council, not the audience.
Mr. Cordeiro hoped one day they would change and work for
the people of Edgewater, the taxpayers that pay their
wages. He encouraged the Council to vote no. He stated
the people down there are devastated over this and it’s
going to ruin their privacy and their lives.
Mayor Thomas closed the public hearing.
Councilwoman Lichter moved to approve Ord. 2006-O-01, Scott
Tobin, applicant for Mid Florida Investments, LLC, (River
Oaks) requesting an amendment to the Official Zoning Map to
include 30.01+ acres of land located east of US1 and north
of Jones Fish Camp Road, second by Councilwoman Rhodes
.
The MOTION FAILED 2-3. Mayor Thomas, Councilwoman Rogers
and Councilman Vincenzi voted NO
.
Councilman Vincenzi encouraged the developer to come back
with a better plan or a different one.
7. BOARD APPOINTMENTS
A.Animal Control Board – nomination by Mayor Thomas
to fill seat due to the expired term of Elizabeth
DiMascio, who did not seek reappointment
Mayor Thomas nominated Pamela Black.
There was a roll call vote that passed 5-0.
8. CONSENT AGENDA
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There were no items to be discussed on the Consent Agenda
at this time.
9. OTHER BUSINESS
A.Public Safety Services – staff recommending
proposed “draft” ordinance establishing a program
to charge user fees to non-residents for public
safety services for motor vehicle accidents.
Due to having a lot of questions about this, Councilwoman
Rhodes asked if they could postpone this to another
meeting.
It was the consensus of Council to postpone this until the
next meeting.
B.Outdoor Amphitheater Stage Cover – staff
recommending the purchase of a custom stage cover
from BPI International using a State Contract for
a total amount of $189,655.75
City Manager Hooper made a staff presentation.
Councilwoman Rogers questioned this being paid from the
required impact fees and ECHO. City Manager Hooper
informed her those are the mandated impact fees.
Councilwoman Rogers had no problem with that.
Mayor Thomas asked which way is pointing east. Leisure
Services Director Jack Corder informed him the front faces
east. Mayor Thomas asked if it is structurally designed.
Mr. Corder informed him it would be structurally designed
to meet 130 mile an hour wind load. Mayor Thomas expressed
concern with where it is going to go if they get more than
that.
Due to there being no comments, Mayor Thomas opened and
closed the public hearing and entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Rhodes moved to approve the purchase of a
custom stage cover from BPI International using a State
Contract for a total amount of $189,655.75 for the Outdoor
Amphitheater Stage Cover, second by Councilwoman Lichter
.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0
.
Page 51 of 52
C.Voluntary Development Fee Discussion – staff has
requested voluntary development fees to offset
the cost of drainage studies, school sites,
landscaping, median improvements and maintenance,
and the animal shelter. Councilman Vincenzi
requested this item appear before Council for
discussion.
This item was discussed earlier on the agenda.
10. OFFICER REPORTS
A.City Clerk Wadsworth had nothing at this time.
B.Paralegal Matusick had nothing at this time.
C.City Manager Hooper had nothing at this time.
11. CITIZEN COMMENTS/CORRESPONDENCE
There were no citizen comments at this time.
A.Tentative Agenda Items
There were no Tentative Agenda Items to be discussed at
this time.
12. ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business to discuss, Councilwoman
Rhodes moved to adjourn. The meeting adjourned at 11:35
p.m.
Minutes submitted by:
Lisa Bloomer
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