02-16-1983 - Special
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CITY OF EDGEWATER
CITY COUNCIL SPECIAL MEETING
FEBRUARY 16, 1983
MINUTES
Mayor Richard McKillop called the Special Meeting to order at 7:00 P.M. in the Community
Center.
ROLL CALL
Mayor Richard McKillop
Councilman David Ledbetter
Councilwoman Gigi Bennington
Councilman Neil Asting
Councilman Jack Spencer
Present
Present
Present
Present
Present
City Attorney Jose' Alvarez
City Clerk Nancy Blazi
Police Chief Earl Baugh
Present
Present
Present
The first item on the agenda was the Nichols' request for' a quit claim deed. Attorney
Sam Easterbrook represented the Nichols and Ogil Reed. Attorney Easterbrook gave the
Council members a packet of information regarding the property. The packet had two deeds,
one was a statutory warranty deed from Curt Houk to a Martin Steven. He highlighted on the
papers the date, which was a 1956 conveyance, and pertinent legal descriptions. The second
deed was the one that necessitated the request. This was also from Curt ~uck dated 1966,
10 years later, and a portion of the property in the second deed had already been conveyed
to Martin Steven in the first deed. The current owner is Ogil Reed and he wants to get a
construction loan from the First Federal Savings & Loan. Before the bank will give that
construction loan it goes to the bank's attorney to review and Mr. Gillespie, the bank's
attorney, has determined there is a cloud on the title.created by the quit claim deed
given by Mr. Houk in 1966. Before the bank can lend Mr. Reed the money, Mr. Gillespie
has ordained that a quit claim deed must be received from the City of Edgewater in order
to clear the title created by the cloud by the quit claim deed. Attorney Easterbrook
explained what conveying a quit claim deed means. Surveyor Dan Cory reviewed the entire
abstract and checked it against the actual ground and it is his opinion that what Mr. Houk
was trying to convey to the City was the east 40 feet of the west 280 feet and either by
typographical error or whatever, the deed reads the east 40 feet of the west 240 feet.
lJan. Cory thinks'he's trying to deed the next eastern 40 feet to thesamestrip of property~
which would be where the present New York Avenue actually is. He said he suspects that
possibly the City built the street and then afterwards realized it never had actual title
to the street, and what Mr. Houk was trying to do was then afterwards convey title to the
right of way to the City. Councilman Spencer asked if the City Attorney had reviewed this
and felt it was in order. City Attorney Alvarez replied that it is. Councilman Spencer
noted that he voted not in favor of granting at the last meeting because he had not had
an opportunity to see where the property actually is. Councilman Asting asked Attorney
Easterbrook if he had seen the sketch by Dan Cory which is certified to be an accurate
survey. Attorney Easterbrook said he had seen it and discussion followed regarding the
survey. Councilman Ledbetter said he did not want to vote on this until he checks into
the situation. He knows there was an extension of New York Avenue and he wants the
people to have the egress, and to satisfy himself. Mayor McKillop stated that the City
Clerk, at his request, had the department heads comment. He asked about the utilities
that would be running across the property, and wouldn't we need a utility easement.
Attorney Easterbrook said yes, and they would be glad to work with the City on that.
Mayor McKillop said when this went before the Planning Commission they produced two
documents and the Planning Commission okayed the trash collection and parking places
and never questioned the fact that it was taken up in a deed restriction on New York.or
didn't clear it at that point, and this has him concerned. Attorney Easterbrook said
this property was sold a number of times since 1966. Several commercial title insurance
companies have sided with what he is telling us,that the quit claim deed conveyed nothing
and they have insured the property despite this quit claim deed remaining on record.
Mayor McKillop said they had a copy of the description which was the 40 feet you have
outlined in yellow as being City property. The Planning Commission should have caught it
then, as a building could be halfway up now. Mayor McKillop asked City Attorney Alvarez
about changing the number of parking places from 28 required to 5 spaces being acceptable.
City Attorney Alvarez said this is due to the type of business. This is a drive through
business and no parking would be required for the customers, only for the employees.
It will take flexibility in the ordinances for these new businesses such as the dry
cleaning business also. Mayor McKillop asked since this is a new type of business with
no reference to it in the Code book, can the Commission make the decision that the parking
is okay or should it go to the Board of Adjustments for approval as a variance. He ~aid
dry cleaners had to come before Council and this should also have to come before Council
for approval.
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Councilman Asting questioned if this should be a special exception if there isn't a
provision for any kind of drive through grocery store. City Attorney Alvarez said that
special exceptions are uses that are listed in the zoning ordinance and allowed there
and specifically listed. An individual or owner who applies has a legal right to that use
provided the conditions set forth in the ordinance are complied with. A variance is when
the property owner is requesting to put his property to a use that is prohibited by the
ordinance for that use. Mayor McKillop asked that this be researced by the City Clerk
before this comes before them again as to how that parking came about. Councilman
Ledbetter asked Attorney Easterbrook about the quit claim deed being signed by Elsie
Ward, former City Clerk in Edgewater, and also that the State of Florida at the bottom
is scratched out and the words New York and County of New York are scratched in. Attorney
Easterbrook said that was questioned before as to whether or not Mrs. Ward witnessed a
signature if it was signed in New York. Councilman Asting moved to TABLE this application
until our next Council meeting, Councilman Ledbetter seconded. Motion CARRIED 5-0.
The next item on the agenda was the auditinq firm status. This has to do with a request
from May, Zima to be our auditors for the next fiscal year and since the Council IS tabling,
they have received a proposal from the firm of Brent Millikan who desire to be our auditors.
Councilman Spencer stated that he thinks this is one of the things the auditors criticized
was for not obtaining competitive bids arid he thinks they should ask for proposals and
select the firm that will be the most beneficial, and most economical, to the City.
Mayor McKillop said when you're dealing with engineering firms and auditing firms, it is
a proposal because the prices are pretty much regulated. Councilman Asting said he thinks
we should go out for proposals and get them in and then accept or appoint the one we feel
will do the City the most good. Councilman Spencer said if you wish to hire an attorney,
you can inquire as to prices per hour and he thinks we can do the same and request their
rates per hour so we can get an idea if we're paying one firm more than another. Council-
man Ledbetter brought up May, Zima doing our auditing and also selling us software and
programming the computer and he is not happy with this situation. Councilman Spencer said
he would like to make the motion that the City advertise for proposals for City auditors
and that they request some dollar estimate as to what their time will be charged, Councilman
Ledbetter seconded. Motion CARRIED 5-0.
The third item on the agenda was the report from Industrial Safety and Health regarding
the City Barn. A report was received from James Fuller, Safety Representative, and
Councilman Ledbetter asked that the City Clerk read the report in its entirety. The City
Clerk stated that this is a draft narrative and a formal report will be submitted at a
future date. The dates on compliance may not be the same in the formal presentation.
liThe following report is submitted in response to an employee complaint received from
the City of Edgewater. COMPLAINANT: Mary Hines, Union Representative, Public Works
Department, Edgewater, Florida. Date of Complaint: Feb. 8, 1983, Date of Investigation:
Feb. 11,1983. COMPLAINT: (1) The roof of the office building leaks badly. Water stands
on the floor in several places after each rain. During inclimate weather, electric space
heaters have been setting in water on the floor. Water stands for considerable periods
of time on the floor of the toilet. FINDINGS: The roof sags badly in several places and
rotten boards can be seen around the structure. Water spots can be seen on the floor and
on the walls near the electric panel. WORKERS COMPENSATION LAW: 440.56 Safety rules and
provisions: penalty-(l) Every employer as defined in s. 440.02 shall furnish employment
which shall be safe for the employees therein, furnish and use safety devices and safe-
guards, adopt and use methods and processes reasonably adequate to render such an employ-
ment and place of employment safe, and do every other thing reasonably necessary to protect
the life, health and safety of such employees. RECOMMENDATIONS: Employees should not be
allowed to work in these conditions. An alternate location for these employees shall be
designated. This is serious and shall be corrected immediately or not later than 3/11/83.
COMPLAINT: (2) Employees are required to work using faulty equipment. An example: The
road grader now in use does not have any brakes. FINDINGS: The road grader located at a
construction site has virtually no "brake pedal ", the pedal touched the floor. CFR 1926.602
(a)(4)Brakes. All earthmoving equipment mentioned in this section, 1910.603(a) shall have
a service breaking system capable of stopping and holding the equipment fully loaded,
as specified in Society of Automotive Engineers SAE J236, Graders-1971. RECOMMENDATIONS:
Discontinue using the grader until the defective braking system is repaired and in
compliance. Under no circumstances shall employees be permitted to use defective or unsafe
equipment. COMPLAINT: (3) Employees do not always use the restraining device when
servicing split-rim wheels. The device does not look safe. FINDINGS: The device,
constructed of four (4) steel bars spaced 16 inches apart, two (2) on each side, does not
provide adequate protection for employees. See pages 400 through 400.4 enclosed. CFR 1910.
177(d)(1)(i)Tire servicing equipment. Restraining devices shall be capable of preventing
rim components from being thrown outside or beyond the frame of the device for any wheel
positioned in the device.
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RECOMMENDATIONS: Discontinue using this device. Cage should have bars substantially
closer together, and from 4 to 6 bars on each side of the wheel. Safety devices are of
little value unless employees are required to use them. COMPLAINT: (4) Only one (1) toilet
is available for use by 22 employees, including females. FINDINGS: Facilities are inade-
quate. The one toilet does not insure privacy. CFR 1910.141(c)(1)(i)Toilet facilities.
Except as otherwise indicated in this subdivision (i) toilet facilities, in toilet rooms
separate for each sex, shall be provided in all places of employment in accordance with
table J-l of this section. RECOMMENDATION: See page 344 enclosed. Additional facilities
shall be provided. COMPLAINT: (5)The break area has insufficient space for employees.
FINDINGS: Seating is limited to seven (7) seats. RECOMMENDATIONS: Adequate facilities
shall be provided. COMPLAINT: (6) The electrical feed to the office building is "falling
down" over gas pumps and gasoline storage tanks. FINDINGS: The electrical feed, 110-120
volts power supply to the office is not secured to the building. See drawing No.2.
CFR 1910.303(b) RECOMMENDATIONS: The roof of the office is in serious need of repair.
The boards of the eaves are rotten and the pipe is pulling away from the building, only
held by the connection to the meter and what is left of the decaying boards around the
pipe. Occupancy of the office is a serious hazard and shall be discontinued immediately.
COMPLAINT: (7) Employees are allowed to spray paint in the main garage area in the
vicinity of a wall-mounted gas heater and general shop activity, including welding.
FINDINGS: There was no evidence that spray painting is done in this area. There is no
overspray on walls, floors or equipment. Sign painting is done in the area. Small amounts
of paint and flammable materials are stored in a metal locker in the area (less than twenty-
five gallons). RECOMMENDATIONS: Spray painting shall be prohibited in the area, and only
permitted in an approved spray booth as described in CFR 1910.107(b).See page 219 enclosed."
The City Clerk stated again that this is a draft and there were no enclosures or drawings
that were mentioned in the draft. Councilman Asting said he thinks Mrs. Bennington
suggested that Mr. Copeland look into the possibility of using a construction trailer
to meet their needs. Mr. Copeland was in the audience and came forward to talk with Council.
Mr. Copeland said all he has is a verbal agreement on the telephone that a man will send
him a brochure. Space International on Orange Blossom Trail in Orlando is the name and
they are in the rental business but he said he would sell trailers. He has in stock a 12
by 56 construction trailer which has one bedroom with a three ton heat and air conditioning
unit and enough room for four offices. This isn't a new trailer, and he wants $11,500. for
it. If Council would want to buy it, there would be a cost of $130 to move it here which
does not include setting up. Councilman Asting asked if, in his opinion, it has sufficient
floor space to provide the facilities that OSHA required. Mr. Copeland said he wasn't
clear as to what they really required. Councilman Asting stated it mentions break area
and toilet facilities, and would it meet some of these requirements. Mr. Copeland said
yes, it would be 672 square feet. Discussion followed regarding the trailer space and cost
in comparison to the building addition space and cost. Councilman Ledbetter questioned
Mr. Copeland regarding the safety problems that have existed for a long time and why
they haven't been corrected. Councilman Ledbetter said a lot of things come under preventive
maintenance. Mr. Copeland said he had checked into getting the brakes repaired on the
grader and it will be $16,000. Discussion followed regarding partitioning off :the existing
building and the need for additional seats for a break area. Councilman Ledbetter stated
he is going to call Mr. Fuller, the Safety Representative, the next morning to talk with
him. Councilman Ledbetter said there's a man capable of re-roofing the building and
Mr. Copeland said he had the man give him an estimate of the cost to fix it. He went to
see Charlie Murphy who said we have to have an architectural drawing before we can do
anything. Councilman Asting motioned to TABLE this matter until we get the formal report
since this is a draft copy. Councilman Spencer seconded the motion. Motion CARRIED 4-1.
Mayor McKillop voted NO. Mayor McKillop stated he wished all the people would be given a
turn to comment before a motion is made to table since that stops any further input.
Councilman Ledbetter wanted to remind Council that Police Chief Earl Baugh is the Safety
Officer of the City and can make a safety inspection of anything pertaining to the City.
Mel Wargo, 2 Pines Edge Court, said that Council is missing an important point and asked
where is the.grievance procedure so that this type of thing would not come to this stage.
If this is a union problem, there should be a grievance procedure to take care of it.
It should be brought up first to the local supervisors before going to OSHA or other safety
organizations.
Gary Hine, 466 Palmetto Street, stated this should have been taken care of a long time
ago,before somebody does get hurt and it costs a hundred times more than what that building
costs. He said if it's hlS wife that gets hurt, it will cost a lot more than that.
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Mrs. Opal asked how this got out of hand. and did anybody see the roof leaking or the
toilet leaking. She asked if anybody knew the grader brakes weren't working and where
were the supervisors.
Dana Armstrong, Cheetah Drive, former mayor of the City of Edgewater, said that the City
barn cost the City absolutely nothing. This was done with volunteer labor to get the
street and garbage department out from under the water tank on Park Avenue. He said he'd
hate to see it abolished even if it meant it had to be re-roofed and re-wired.
Walter Gross, 909 Lake Avenue, spoke about the windstorms and rains and flooding from
the last week and when riding through Edgewater, they saw Earl Copeland taking care of this
and that. There are problems and he suggested they not stop at Earl's building as last
year a lady fell through a hole in the pier and a little boy cut his toe off on a slide
at a park. He feels the whole city should be inspected and don't pick on one department.
Robert Christy, 1916 Evergreen, said too many people are jumping on Earl Copeland and
he isn't the one at fault, it's the Council's fault. He said he's tried to get something
done for 5 years and every time he tries everybody's been against him. He said you patch
up everything to save a dollar and you end up spending 40 times more.
Mary Hine spoke and said she was the one who made the complaint. She stated she feels the
City is being run down and pressure being applied to Earl Copeland isn't the place to
correct it. A proposal was up here and was tabled and tabled and never gets anywhere.
Robert Bates, 2816 Travelers Palm, stated that after listening tonight, it would behoove
all the people to give the City Council and Earl Copeland a vote of confidence and he
suggested that in order to resolve this problem a special meeting be set up to decide
what is best for the city and how to use the appropriated "funds.
Councilwoman Bennington stated that this pro~em on these complaints existed and _ giving
the building that Mr. Copeland had proposed would not have rectified all the complaints
on this form. It would have added a building but wouldn't have fixed the roof or the
grader. The reason she tabled the addition to the building was to save the City some
money so that we could use the money that was saved to correct the existing problems there.
Carmen Montesano, Florida Shores, said we all know that is a block building and the
blocks are not rotted. We could be saving the City a lot of money by having somebody
go out there and tear the roof off and put another roof on but his understanding is the
people out there want a lounge. He stated we don't have a contract with anybody and if
they don't like the conditions there they are welcome to leave, and just because there
are one or two out there the City is going to spend the taxpayers money of $3o-to $40,000
to suit them. He stated he feels the roof could be fixed for $3,000. and if that can't
be fixed, partition off. Councilman Ledbetter asked Mr. Montesano who built the building
on his property. Mr. Montesano said the building is 40 x 40 and cost about $9,000.
Mayor McKillop asked the name of the company. Mr. Montesano said it's out of Jacksonville
and if he'll stop down by helll give them the brochures on it.
Jacob Lodico, Riverside Drive, spoke regarding Earl Copeland fighting against odds
against somebody wanting to stop the transfer station, which saves us several thousands
of dollars every month. He spoke about the process of getting the building and how
they worked there before with inadequate facilities. He said we should give him some credit.
The next item was the request for Council approval of invitations to the Jim Hogan
Dedication. Council had been given a list of the names. Councilman Asting moved to
approve the list, Councilwoman Bennington seconded. Motion CARRIED 5-0.
The next item was the petition calling for a referendum. Mayor McKillop asked the City
Clerk to read the cert""ffYlng- letl.ec from Mrs. Kathetlne Odham. The City
Clerk read: "I, Katherine S. Odham, Supervisor/Director of the Department of Elections
in and for Volusia County, Florida, do hereby certify that I have examined the attached,
to wit: 'PETITION TO THE CITY COUNCIL OF EDGEWATER, FLA. We, the undersigned, registered
voters of Edgewater, do hereby petition that the position of City Manager in the City of
Edgewater be dissolved, deleting all references to this position in the City Charter in
conflict with this dissolution. We earnestly petition the City Council to put forth a
referendum to be voted on immediately so that the voters of this city can cast their
ballots FOR or AGAINST this dissolution.'I do further certify that the attached contains
575 signatures, of which number 544 are registered voters whose signatures compare with
those on the voting registration records in and for the City of Edgewater, Florida. I do
further certify that there were 4,341 registered voters in the City of Edgewater, Florida
as of January 9, 1983, the date the attached was received in the Elections office. /s/
Katherine Odham. II
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Mayor McKillop asked that another letter be read also. The City Clerk read: "Mayor
Richard McKillop and City Council. Dear Mayor and Council Members: We understand that
you are arranging to have a special council meeting to discuss the straw ballot which
you propose to mail to the people throughout the city, indicating a choice from three
types of governments. In view of the fact that C.O.E. has already submitted a petition
for a referendum signed by more than the required number of citizens, and each signature
has been certified by the Board of Elections to be a bona fide, registered voter in our
city precincts, we are requesting to be included in your special meeting agenda in order
that one of our representatives can speak during this meeting. The people of Edgewater
desire to know who authorized City Attorney Alvarez to go to Mrs. Odham, County Supervisor
of Elections, requesting her to draw up a straw ballot. Mr. Alvarez was asked by three
people on the council to work on and bring to the council his recommendations on the pro-
posed ballot. Why did Mr. Alvarez proceed to have the ballot forms printed and under
whose authority were they distributed? We understand that the cost of this procedure
will be in excess of $2,000. and we are firmly opposed to this ballot and cost. Sincerely
yours, Walter Gross, President, Citizens of Edgewater." "Mayor McKillop said he placed this
item on the agenda pursuant to a letter from Katherine Odham, Supervisor of Elections,
dated 2/8/83 which stated in part that straw ballots will be mailed no later than 2/15/83
to each registered voter in the City of Edgewater. As this was not part of Councilman
Spencer's motion at the Council meeting of February 7th netook action with the City Clerk to
communicate with Mrs. Odham's office to stop any further work on her part that would
have allowed this petition to move forward and advised Council there would be a special
meeting called to discuss this paper ballot. Councilman Spencer noted that there was a
request from C.O.E. to have a representative speak.
Mr. Walter Gross, 909 Lake Avenue, President of C.O.E., stated he is representing 544
registered voters in the City of Edgewater. He said that in approximately October, 1980
another organization in the City produced a petition for a charter change and they were
required to go to Judge Hutcheson for a decision. Judge Hutcheson ruled that the City of
Edgewater must promptly recognize that petition and promptly refer it on a referendum to
be voted on by the people of Edgewater. That was done and the regulation was that if it
was not done the City would be in contempt. On February 7th they presented a petition to
the City Council and it was voted on and accepted by the City Council and it was stated
that it would be immediately sent to Katherine Odham for certification. On the same
night a councilman made a motion to Council to send the paper straw ballot to the people.
There was no consideration that it was going to cost in excess of $2,000. He stated he
asked the City Attorney at that time which comes first, the petition or the straw ballot.
He continued that the City attorney said the petition was voted on, and it will be considered
first. Mr. Gross referred to Mrs. Bennington's earlier statement regarding the City
Manager. He stated that the City Attorney, after being seriously ill, went over to
Katherine Odham's office at 9:30 the following morning. Councilman Spencer requested
that .he refrain from making caustic remarks. Mr. Gross apologized and continued with
his conversation with Katherine Odham regarding the paper ballot. He then said about
1:00 that afternoon he started getting telephone calls saying that they had copies of a
ballot. Mr. Gross asked the hourly salary of the City Attorney. Mayor McKillop said he
didn't know the hourly salary, he has a contract with the City. Mr. Gross said he feels
it is a complete waste of the people's money, when 543 certified people say we want to
vote on a referendum and that is ignored by one councilman and then certified by two more.
He asked the City to be fair and recommended that the petition go on a referendum and give
the people a chance to speak their piece.
Councilman Ledbetter stated there are 544 signatures on this petition out of the 576 and
he respects every signature. He moved that the petition be turned over to the City
Attorney to comply with State Statutes at the earliest point that the election can be
be held. Councilman Asting seconded the motion. City Attorney Alvarez said he will
have to go w the Supervisor of Elections as the procedures have to be followed and she'll
have to supervise the election, plus the advertisements, etc. Councilman Spencer said he
felt the information presented by Mr. Gross was a little bit in error in saying what Mrs.
Bennington's motion was. What form of government was discussed and on that basis the
Council had proceeded to wind up a point where we believe that the letter ballot that we
wished to send out does give the people the choice of three different kinds of City
government. He said he feels it is very appropriate and the City Council should recognize
the petition which has a different purpose since it requires a change in the City Charter.
Councilman Asting said he thinks that the only thing the people of Edgewater want to know
is shall we or shall we not have a city manager. Councilwoman Bennington said she feels
Mr. Gross misunderstood her and you can't always believe what you read in the newspaper.
She read from her verbatim motion. She also said she had talked with Katherine Odham and
the maximum cost would be $1,500 for the straw ballot. She thinks we would be denyiny
the other 3,000 voters the right to choose because 544 want one question on the ballot
and it isn't fair to the rest of the voters. She said her motion was to form of govern-
ment and there is more than one form. She respects the petition and agrees it should be
considered.
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Councilman Ledbetter said the copy of Ms. Odham's letter to Mr. Alvarez was received
by him about 5:00 in the afternoon. Mr. Alvarez has a client living on the corner and
the stopped by my house on the way to his client's and said he was going to the post
office to give the Mayor a copy. Councilman Asting said he got his copy between 4:00
and 4:30, and Attorney Alvarez said that he was the first one. Mayor McKillop said he
was last and the City Clerk called the next morning and he had no idea. Mayor McKillop
asked where the position of City Clerk as supervisor of elections fit into the scheme
of things and what part does she play. In the Charter she's supervisor of elections.
Is she going to supervise this election orwill it be handled by the county. Councilman
Ledbetter said he thinks the letter from Katherine Odham is self-explanatory and their
office will handle and supervise all necessary details. Mayor McKillop said that was
the straw ballot, now welre back on referendum. Councilman Ledbetter said the referendum
will be a regular election the same as the election last November with the exception that
it is a special election.
Mayor McKillop said Ms. Odham informed him that it has to be advertised three times to
have a election and you1re looking at a 40 to 45 day period. City Attorney Alvarez said
he would like a representative from the Council and a representative from C.O.E. sit in
at the meetings so they can appreciate what is involved in the processes. He said you
are looking more at 90 days minimum. Councilman Ledbetter suggested he set up a meeting
with Walter Gross and Katherine Odham and sit down and work it out. Mayor McKillop stated
the City Clerk is the supervisor of elections and he would like her there to go through it.
The City Clerk stated if you're going to have a special election we have to choose the
poll workers and let the county know how many machines welre going to need. Mayor McKillop
said he didn't want to preclude the invitation to Mr. Gross, just that held like the City
Clerk there also. Councilman Ledbetter stated he expected the City Clerk to fulfill her
job to participate in the meeting. Mayor McKillop said he didn't think she was at the last
meeting and he wanted it to be clear that she would be at this one.
Jacob Lodico, Riverside Drive, said he would like a correction as there was no such thing
as a petition signed a few years ago and they held a meeting right away and referendum.
It went before this Council and at the last minute the judge said you either put it
on the election of November or else you1re in contempt. This was in April or May. He
then suggested that they not put too many things on it and to keep it simple. The election
was held on election day and was stalled from May until November.
John Siburn, Connecticut Avenue, spoke to Mrs. Bennington and said there was no mention
of a motion by her, it was a statement. He read from the clipping.
Mrs. Siburn stated that it was a workshop meeting and asked Mrs. Bennington if she recalled
it. Councilwoman Bennington said she remembered and she had made the statement to Pat
Lamee in an interview. Mrs. Siburn said she did not mention Mr. Alvarez make the three
different kinds of government and you said the question here is do we or do we not want
a city manager.
Mrs. Opal stated that Mr. Alvarez still did not answer the question. Who gave him the
authority to go to see Mrs. Odham. He was supposed to come to Council. She asked the
Council members individually if they sent him over there.
Councilman Spencer said the City Attorney is hired by the City Council and if the Council
is dissatisfied with his service they can dispense with those services. He said we do
not direct Mr. Alvarez in everything he does, we direct general activity. He does many
things for the various commissions. He added he was very pleased that he would go to
Mrs. Odham because there had been comments here that elections carried on by letter ballot
within the City of Edgewater were suspect and he was pleased when told that there was an
alternative in doing it through Mrs. Odham's office. Mayor McKillop said that what Mr.
Ledbetter is saying is that mail ballots were found in the trash cans in the post office
but he can assure you that they will be delivered by this same post office and that won't
alleviate that problem. Councilman Ledbetter said he made a motion on the referendum for
the people of the 544 signatures so he called for the question. Motion CARRIED 5-0.
Councilman Asting added that of the 4,341 voters all will get a change to vote yes or no
if they want a city manager or not. Just because 544 are certified it doesn't mean that
the 544 will decide if the City has a city manager or not. Everybody votes on it and it
will be the majority that decides the issue.
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The last item on the agenda was the straw ballot. Mayor McKillop said this item was
brought about by the letter from Katherine Odham and the accompanying sample ballots.
Councilman Spencer said he would like Council to take up specifically the actual wording
on the three forms of municipal government that we received from the City Attorney at
the Council's request. Mayor McKillop clarified they'd review the actual basic forms of
municipal government on the description sheet dated March 7, 1983.
The first to be discussed was the Mayor/Council plan. Councilman Spencer said he would
prefer reversing the two words and calling it the Council/Mayor plan and the reason is the
City Charter very strongly vests power in the City Council and gives Council authority to
delegate duties to the Mayor. Councilwoman Bennington said she would like to add:
Mayor's duties to be set by ordinance of the Council. Councilman Ledbetter said that
the present Charter under the Mayor/Council form of government plainly states that the
Mayor shall perform his duties at the direction of the City Council.and he has no
objection to it. Councilman Asting said that is the present form of government as he sees it;
Councilman Ledbetter added that he sees no reason to deviate from what the Charter says now.
Mayor McKillop stated that he finds this to be over-simplistic and misleading - the entire
paragraph. There are two basic types of Mayor-Council plans. He continued by saying
there is a strong Mayor and a weak Mayor and the duties should be spelled out in detail
to let people know the plan they vote for. He reviewed the salary needed for a strong
Mayor and said with the weak Mayor system the Mayor does only those things authorized by
the Council and is presently very limited. He's the titular head of the City, he performs
at certain ceremonial functions, and does that type of thing. He said that people should
know if there is to be a full time position with pay. Councilman Ledbetter said if that
is unsatisfactory to the Council, the Mayor-Council plan of government with the Mayor per-
forming the executive and administrative duties, then abide by the Charter. There is a
Charter provision on it which explains the duties of the Mayor which are extended to him
by the City Council. Councilman Asting read from the Charter regarding the authority of
the Council to delegate powers to the Mayor. Councilman Spencer said it is his intent
to ask the people to determine the basic form of government they want and then it's the
responsibility of the Council to follow through to set appropriate duties to the Mayor.
Mayor McKillop suggested we let the people have the chance to have a weak Mayor and an
Administrator or a strong full-time Mayor,8:30 to 5,with a salary set by Council.
Councilman Asting said he doesn't like the terms strong or weak Mayor and in lieu of
saying weak r1ayor we should say Mayor-Administrator. Mayor McKillop said we could have
a full time Mayor-Council plan and an Administrator-Council plan. That would give the
people a clear choice. Councilwoman Bennington said she felt the issue is being clouded
and is being made more complicated than it needs to be.
The next review was on the Commission Plan. Councilman Spencer suggested changing a
couple of words, from Commission to Council each place it appears, since Edgewater does
not have a Commission. He would add after the first line to be: This basic form of
government calls for a City Council and Mayor, instead of saying:This basic form of
government calls for a Board of City Commissioners. Councilman Ledbetter said that all
through the Charter it says the Mayor and City Council, listing the Mayor first.
Councilman Spencer stated he had no problem with Mayor and City Council. Discussion
followed regarding the coordinator system. Councilman Asting stated he felt the
last sentence on the Commission Plan should go into more detail as to exactly what the
functions of the councilmen would be. City Attorney Alvarez went over the three
definitions and stressed the ballot has to be simple and then an ordinance would have to
set forth specific language. Councilman Asting reminded Council that the question of
what kind of government should Edgewater have was not brought up by the people but by
a member of Council. Mayor McKillop asked the City Attorney if he felt these were
clear when he drafted them and that people would understand them. City Attorney Alvarez
replied that what he felt is not important but opinions he sought from random individuals
found no difficulty understanding the basic distribution of administrative, legislative
executive powers. Mayor McKillop read a clipping from the News & Observer regarding the
question.
Recess was called at 9:17 P.M. Meeting returned to order at 9:27 P.M.
The next review was the City Manager Plan. Councilman Ledbetter wants to change the
wording from Commissioner/Manager Plan to Council/Administrator Plan. Discussion
followed regarding the wording of professionally trained Administrator or City Manager.
The City Attorney said it would read City Administrator Plan - Under this basic form of
government, the elected or legislative body appoints a qualified Administrator to
administer and supervise the day-to-day operations of the City and implement the policies
established by the City Council. He then read the first one: Council/Mayor Plan - Under
this basic format, the elected councilmen perform the duties pertaining to the legislative
branch of government and the elected Mayor performs the executive and administrative duties
as set by the City Council. He read the second one: Council Plan - This basic form of
government calls for a Mayor and City Council, who exercise a combination of legislative,
as well as executive and administrative functions of government. The legislative powers
are executed jointly by all members of the Council. The executive and administrative duties
are divided amongst the different members.
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Special Council Meeting Minutes
February 16, 1983
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Councilman Spencer suggested instead of calling it the City Administrator Plan that it
be called the Council/Administrator Plan.
Mayor McKillop said that the straw ballot going out the Council is not going to give
those people in the community that were for the City Manager form of government an
opportunity to say that they are, they'll have to adopt the Council/Administrator plan.
Discussion followed. Councilman Spencer stated he wanted to convey that it would be a
City Manager or Administrator, and that he is in favor of getting this mailed out as soon
as possible so that weIll have the option of proceeding to get the form of government the
people want. Councilman Asting said if we wait on this the referendum will tell us
whether or not the people want a City Manager type of government, and if it comes back and
the majority want the City Manager form then we send this out with City Manager on it.
Mayor McKillop said if the majority comes back that they want the City Manager form of
government there would be no need to go through the expense of the straw ballot. Council-
man Spencer stated he believed there is a strong need for a straw ballot because the
Council has been dragging its feet for 2t months and the Council has been trying to arrive
at what form of government the people want. By doing the straw ballot we can get that
information in a relatively short period of time. He reviewed the responsibilities first
given to the Mayor and then to Nancy Blazi and her 90 days is up March 20th. Discussion
followed between Councilmen Asting and Spencer regarding the platforms and the different
types of government. Mayor McKillop stated he did not think the straw ballot was right
in the beginning.
Councilman Ledbetter made a motion to have the City Clerk advertise for a City Manager.
Councilwoman Bennington seconded the motion. Mayor McKillop stated he saw nothing wrong
with starting to advertise for a City Manager, by the time we get into the hiring process
weill have our referendum and will be that much further toward hiring, but he would not go
along with hiring a City Manager before the final results of the referendum. Motion
CARRIED 4-1. Councilman Asting voted NO.
Carmen Montesano said you have a referendum to vote on and the City Attorney said it
takes three months to get it. He suggested the Countil start doing some work for the City.
He said the Council is three months ahead of time now and will be three years behind time
when they finish.
John Wharton said they have had enough of the City Manager business and it has been
proven time and again. All theylre asking for is to dissolve that job, not to change
anything else in the Charter.
Dana Armstrong strongly urged Council to get the Charter out and read it from the first
page to the last page and all its amendments. He said it is quite apparent that some
members of Council don't know what the Charter says. He noted that the Mayor's position
is a very lonely one. He stated the City Clerk, the City Attorney, and Council have duties
spelled out in the Charter.
Walter Gross, Lake Avenue, President of C.O.E., asked Mr. Ledbetter how much money he
wants to pay for a City Manager and do we have that money and what are the requirements.
Councilman Ledbetter said he hadn't supported the last City Manager with the salary of
$25,000. anai,that we always have money for everything else. Mr~ Gross then directed his
question to the Mayor and asked if we have money to hire a City Manager. Mayor McKillop
said the advertisement should have the applicant state his salary requirements. 'He
then reportea salaries of City Managers in other cities. There was a discussion between
Mr. Gross and Councilman Ledbetter regarding the hiring of a City Manager. Mr. Gross
stated we have a referendum in action and he thinks it is unfair to the people who live
in Edgewater to advertise for a City Manager and in three months time weill have a refer-
endum asking the people if they want a City Manager. "
Mrs. Helen Siburn asked Councilman Ledbetter what made him change his mind. There was
a discussion between Mrs. Siburn and Councilman Ledbetter regarding the petition. Mrs.
Siburn then asked the'City' Attorney how to start a recall.
Frank Opal, Florida Shores, said what amazed him most is advertising for a City Manager
when you have the same thing on the ballot. He feels it is circumventing the real issue
and it is going to be on the referendum and he will work that much harder to see there is
no City Manager here.
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February 16, 1983
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Mrs. Opal asked the City Attorney if we still have a Sunshine Law because it is being
broken. She said if she sees more bf it, she'll see the Governor.
Carmen Montesano said he wanted to clear something up and he feels the way Councilman
Ledbetter does because it's been two hours talking about this and the only way to stop
it was to throw the City Manager in there.
The City Clerk asked for Council directive on the advertisement as to when they want the
resumes back, when to set up meetings, and what is to go in the advertisement itself.
Councilman Ledbetter said to use the same procedures used before.
Councilwoman Bennington said we voted to go ahead and gave the people the referendum that
will be according to State Statutes. We were told it would take approximately 90 days
If the City Manager passes, we would have lost 90 days when we could have been advertising,
and if it fails all we lose will be the advertising costs.
Councilman Asting said we voted on putting the petition on a referendum and then we dis-
cussed the paper ballot and he doesn't think we came to any conclusion as to what action
to take on that. He said now we vote to advertise for a City Manager and are going out
on the ballot whether or not to have a City Manager.
Mayor McKillop stated he is in total agreement to what appears to be audience sampling.
If we advertise it is a small cost to advertise for a City Manager, and if the City
Manager passes we're that far ahead, and in either case we will have advanced to that
point.
Councilman Ledbetter pointed out that just because he made the motion doesn't mean he has
to vote that way on the Council floor.
The City Attorney asked for clarification on the referendum as to whether there will be
one question or more than one. He also wanted to remind Council that some time ago a
resolution was approved which directed that a referendum be held and contemplated more
than one question, so that resolution has to be rescinded to some extent if that's the case.
There is pending a motion on the paper ballot. The City Attorney said he needs specific
directionon the referendum since the petition is not formulated on the basis of a question.
Councilman Spencer said the C.O.E. petition is aimed at either changing or not changing
the City Charter. City Attorney Alvarez said it is to delete it so now we have to go into
the intent. He said it could mean a Charter amendment to eliminate the option that exists
in the Charter to hire a City Manager or it could mean substitute a City Manager for a
City Administrator. Councilman Ledbetter said his interpretation is to delete the words
City Manager once and for all. City Attorney Alvarez said section 9A of the Charter contains
the "may hire a City Manager" and said if this means an amendment to the Charter there
would be no option. Mayor McKillop said the only reference in the Charter is 9A so it
comes down to deleting 9A. The City Attorney asked what the question is to be. Discussion
followed as to the possible wording to make it clear to the voters what they are voting on.
Councilman Asting asked if it could be prepared to bring to the next meeting and the City
Attorney replied he would bring a draft of the question.
Carmen Montesano asked Council if they can say 90 days from now that they are going to
agree with what they're saying today. Councilman Spencer asked what he is asking him
to agree to and Mr. Montesano replied the paper vote. Mr. Montesano said the only thing
to put on the ballot is City Manager, yes or no, and if it's no you automatically take it
out of the Charter.
City Attorney Alvarez said in order to have a Charter amendment you tell the people in the
ballot that it's going to be a Charter amendment. He read the question - Should Section
9.A. of the Charter of the City of Edgewater, which reads as follows: liThe City Council
shall have the power to appoint or remove a City Manager. The City Council shall by
ordinance prescribe the compensation, duties and powers of the City Manager. II be repealed
in its entiretyI Yes or No.
John Wharton asked if they could include all references including Section 9.A. Mayor
McKillop stated that Mr. Wharton had written the petition and would be aware of the
intent of it and could answer any questions.
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February 16, 1983
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Don Bennington asked if the majority of the citizens vote to delete all reference to
the City Manager if we are going to be right back where started, and what form of
government are we going to have. He then asked if the references to City Manager are
voted down, would there be a problem with hiring an Administrator. Mayor McKillop said
the feeling he's getting from the people is that Administrator is not objectionable, pro-
viding that the powers given to the City Manager are not given to that Administrator under
a new title, and they would like to see an Administrator responsive to Council and not
dictating to Council. Mr. Bennington asked if the people are willing to go with an
Administrator is there really a need to have the referendum and spend the money. Mayor
McKillop stated his understanding is they want the City Manager question settled once
and for all and that he had campaigned for a City Manager and wants the opportunity but
is willing to compromise later if necessary. Mr. Bennington asked if it is possible to
put it all one one ballot. Mayor McKillop said the major objection from the people who
have the petition is that they want one thing on that ballot and no confusion. He added
that in the meantime he has all the faith in Nancy and she'll be a candidate for the
position no matter which way it goes. Discussion followed between Mr. Bennington and
Mayor McKi 11 op.
John Siburn, Connecticut Avenue, said he has no trouble explaining this, if the people
want a City Manager and vote for it, they'll accept it.
Walter Gross, 909 Lake Avenue, spoke on Mr. Bennington's conclusion that weIll get a
City Administrator. He said that this ballot is do you or don't you want a City Manager,
yes or no, and he doesn't see why the question of Administrator is being brought up now.
Mr. Gross asked the problem with the form of government today with the City Council and
Administrator with a strong Council. He said he'd like to sit down with Nancy and the
City Attorney and Katherine Odham and come up with the question on the ballot and bring it
back to Council.
John Wharton said they're bringing this up because of their experience in the City and
the title of the job has caused the people to assume powers they should never have had.
They now wish that we not have the title of City Manager. City Attorney Alvarez said what
you are talking about is the title and what welre talking about is repealing the pro-
visions of the Charter pertaining to the City Manager. The petition addresses itself to
a Charter amendment to repeal the City Manager as a form of government. Mr. Wharton said
it's not the form of government, just the title. City Attorney Alvarez said if somebody
challenges the legal sufficiency of the petition or the whole process, then the question may be
is this whole process valid, is the intent confused and the way he reads the petition that
the people signed is to delete any reference to the City Manager. There was a discussion
between Mr. Wharton and City Attorney Alvarez regarding the intent of the petition.
The City Attorney stated that first thing tomorrow he'll go to Katherine Odham's office
and read the question he has read into the record tonight and if the question can be
placed on the ballot as it is, from that point on, that's it, and you'll be looking at a
proposed draft of an ordinance.
Mayor McKillop asked if Mrs. Odham says the question is fine can you have an ordinance
be prepared for Monday night. City Attorney Alvarez said with only the one question,
very possibly.
Frank Opal said he hears the issue of 9.A. and it is so simple to put the ballot on
a referendum the way it stipulates there. He said all you have to do is put 9.A. with
it, a Charter amendment.
Councilwoman Bennington moved to adjourn, Councilman Spencer seconded.
adjourned at 10:45P.M.
Minutes submitted by:
Meeting was
Lura Sue Koser
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Special Council Meeting Minutes
February 16, 1983