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11-14-2005 - Workshop i'" . o o CITY COUNCIL OF EDGEWATER WORKSHOP NOVEMBER 14, 2005 6:00 P.M. COMMUNITY CENTER VERBATIM MINUTES Thomas: The City Council of Edgewater will hold a workshop tonight 6 p.m. Monday November 14, 2005 rescheduled from October 25, 2005 in the Community Center to discuss a condominium project located on thirty acres east of US1 and north of Jones Fish Camp Road. May I have a roll call please? Wadsworth: Mayor Michael Thomas Thomas: Here Wadsworth: shortly. Wadsworth: Vincenzi: Here Councilwoman Debra Rogers. She will be here Councilman Dennis Vincenzi Wadsworth: Councilwoman Harriet Rhodes Rhodes: Here Wadsworth: Councilwoman Judith Lichter Lichter: Here Wadsworth: Hooper: Here City Manager Ken Hooper ~ Wadsworth: City Clerk Susan Wadsworth. Here. Paralegal Robin Matusick. Matusick: Here Wadsworth: Garthwaite Garthwaite: Planning and Zoning Board Member Robert Here Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 1 of 59 '\ ~ o o Wadsworth: Sandy Jones Jones: Here Wadsworth: John Weiss Weiss: Here Wadsworth: Charlene Zeese Zeese: Here Wadsworth: Todd Fuhrmann Fuhrmann: Here Wadsworth: Pat Card Card: Here Wadsworth: Edwin Vopelak Vopelak: Here Hooper: Glenn, do you want to just go on up and get us started? Storch: Sure Gentleman: Yes sir Glenn Storch: For the record, my name, usually it's not loud enough. For the record my name is Glenn Storch with the law firm of Storch, Morris and Harris and I am pleased to represent the River Oaks Condominium and I'll tell you why. You know the reason why you are having a workshop tonight is because of the fact this is something new to the City of of of Edgewater. Uh. Your looking at a condominium tower in this particular case or actually two condominium towers in this case. It's something the City of Edgewater does not have. New Smyrna Beach has it obviously. Daytona, Daytona Beach Shores, Ormond Beach, everyone else has it along this area. Daytona or Edgewater has never done this before and before you do it you need to explore all the issues that are before you and to make sure that this is the type of use that you want to see. Uhm. I will Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 2 of 59 , ( o o tell you this that that's something you need to look at very closely because the use itself is important. Right now you have a piece of property thirty acres uh that has uhm that has a certain designation as far as the density of it. The density was on it in the City of in the County the density was placed on it in the City. You're looking at basically eight units per acre. The question is how do you want that eight units spread across this property. Uhm. Do you want townhouse units uh or multi-family in some other way or do you want something else? One of the advantages that the City of Edgewater has at this point is they have several areas that can be utilized for condominium uh development. That's really it. As a general rule in order to have condominium development you have to have an amenity to go along with that condominium development. As you can tell in the City of New Smyrna Beach for instance you have all the beach front and water front areas in which they place their condominiums. The same with Daytona Beach. The same with Daytona Beach Shores. Uh now Uhm. South Daytona is doing the same thing. They are placing their condominium areas along the riverfront because that's where the money is. But the question is for you whether that's the kind of of of uhm construction you'd like to see. Luxury condominiums verses multi-family or typical multi-family and that's really what you need to decide. The reason I ask that and the reason I pose that question is because this is how to accomplish that goal if it's luxury condominiums. The advantage to luxury condominiums I'll tell you right now is this. In the City of New Smyrna Beach, in the City and all the other cities that have condominiums like this on the waterfront what happens is that uh the condominiums require far less services than any other type of housing that can be provided in the City. The reason for this of course is because as a general rule as a general rule the condominiums are often times part time. Uh. People come in for the weekends or for vacation homes. Uh. Often times they come in for summers or for seasons. Most of the time they are not full time residences. That is something to consider. As a result of that, the people who live in these uh locations uhm do not have the advantages of homestead exemption. There is no homestead exemption on the taxes. There is also no homestead prevention of increases in taxes. As you know under Save our Homes anyone who has uh uh a homestead and aand a residence and a homestead you can only increase your appraisal by three percent per year. The people who live in the in the Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 3 of 59 ... o o condominium towers or luxury condominiums or have I'm sorry own the condominiums in the condominium towers do not have that advantage. As a general rule if you have a homestead somewhere else uh and you have this as a vacation home you cannot protect that property from increase in appraisals and increase in taxes as a result of that. So that's one of the reasons why the City of New Smyrna Beach has such an incredible uh uh tax uh value as far as the property. Right now the City of New Smyrna Beach has more taxes coming into it then any other community in this in in Volusia County. The reason for that is very simple. Because the condominium values that they have are so extraordinary in the fact they can continue to go up in value as time goes on pays for tremendous amounts of their budget. It's that simple and the services that are required of condominiums are practically nill. The reason for it is because again when you are having uhm say a typical townhouse or single-family home site, you have police, you have fire uhm you have a number of of potential services that are required. For condominiums generally the services that are required are usually only EMT. Uhm The the things that usually happen are only things like medical emergencies and that's it. You don't usually have fire issues. Uhm You don't usually have police issues. You don't have people partying or renting the place like in a hotel uh so that's one of the advantages of having this. Very low services. As a general rule you don't have school impacts. Even though they are paying school impact fees you don't have school impacts because of the fact that the people come over here, they are using them for vacation houses, their kids do not go to school here. So these are advantages uh. They may not be really a part of the residences. If that's what you are looking for If you are looking for residences to come in here and live there that's one thing. But if you are looking for income and looking for something that also works with the community I'd suggest you look at the luxury condominiums. Let me also suggest that when I am doing projects I look at a number of things. Even though you have something that's zoned for the density you have here even though it was zoned that way in the County, you want to see how something affects the community and how to work with the community and a neighborhood to make sure that it doesn't impact them in a negative fashion. I just did the Home Depot in New Smyrna a few minutes ago and one of the things we worked very hard was to work with the neighborhood and with the City and the County and the neighbors behind it and Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 4 of 59 , o o everyone to to to try and mitigate any potential impacts. I think we did a very good job in that case and hopefully you will see a Home Depot coming soon there. But more importantly here one of the things you have to look at is how this will impact the neighborhood and how this will impact the drive. This is a uhm a different use again. This is a tower. You don't have any towers in in uh Edgewater so the last thing you want is for this to stick out like a sore thumb. I know that's been mentioned before. And so I am very concerned regarding that myself. Aesthetics of something like that are very important in a case like this. But when you are starting with this or if we do this as the luxury condominium tower you are looking at thirty acres. You are looking at literally keeping eighty percent of this site as open space. And when I say open space I'm saying green space. That's important. And that's where we are looking at some of the smart growth recommendations of clustering. One of the reasons for it is if you cluster the uh density you are allowed the residential units into one space, you then can leave the rest o~ it in natural vegetation. As that's one of the things we were looking at doing. This is a private gated uh access. Again, uh this cuts down on the actual uh cost of maintenance to the City considering the amount of services required. It would be three hundred and eight units. Two condominium buildings that would be further down closer to the river away from US 1. The buildings would cover less than seven percent of the property in this case. Uh and in fact just for your information I don't know if you have seen the packet but one of the things we have done as far as trying to design this in such a way where it will have little impact to the adjoining areas. It's also to minimize the amount of impervious surface or asphalt that will be placed on the site. We placed the parking on this underneath the buildings as opposed to parking lots. And again that decreases the amount of impervious surface increases the amount of green space and decreases the amount of building coverage. The highest uhm the height of the of the condominium towers is of course the issue. That's 190 feet at its highest point. That's something to look at. Especially compared to you know houses, which are three stories forty or thirty five feet and so that's something we need to look at how that height affects the adjoining property and how it affects the view from US 1. The site will have its own clubhouse, tennis courts. The horseshoes you know we'll have to see. That is sort of a luxury item. But we'll, but we'll think about Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 5 of 59 o o that. Uh there is also a possible future forty-two boat slips. As you know the City of Edgewater has recently decided to join the aggregate method of calculating boat slips. That means that that you have a bank of boat slips that can be assigned uh to uh anyone who is looking at doing that. My understanding from Mr. Hooper is that there may be some additional costs involved and benefits to the city if they decide to assign those boat slips so that is something to look at later on down the line. Let's go to the next one. We've talked about the fact that that this is a clustered uh idea and again that is in keeping with this some of the smart growth principles. The disadvantages of. Let's talk right there before we get to the next one. The disadvantages of traditional development. If this was developed traditionally as was we were in the process I'm saying as the precedence? Was in the process of doing in the county. Developing this as a townhouse development. It would utilize the vast majority of this site. The vast majority of this site would be impervious, buildings, roadways throughout it etc. That would be required. Uhm it would it would have lower height but traditional development would not allow for the preservation of the areas that we are talking about. The advantages of clustered development of course are just the opposite. By clustering this uh the number of residential units into a single area and minimizing the amount of green space that is actually impacted you are then able to preserve the vast majority of the green space. Uhm you still have the same number of people or thereabouts but you what you do is you are able to at least provide a different aesthetic and that's something to look at. If it depends on the aesthetic you are looking for and the type of use you are looking for. Again one use would be uh traditional development would be probably single it would be townhouse residential development. Those people would be residents. Uh They would be living here. Uh they would be uhm having kids in school etc etc. Clustered development in this case would be luxury condominiums and like I say I suspect your market for that will be more toward the vacationer as opposed to residents. I'm sure there will be some residents there, which is one of the reasons why they'll still have to pay all these the impact fees. School impact fees etc. But most people do not move to condominiums with kids. Most people don't move to condominiums uh especially on the river like this permanently. They go there for vacation homes so again that's what we're looking at. I will tell you this also. The difference in price between Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 6 of 59 o o those two units is staggering uh as far as the significance. You're probably looking at traditional development you're probably looking at at values of around $200,000 plus is that right Scott? Uhm the condominiums you are looking at certainly well over $300,000. I I would guess over $400,000 on a condominium I haven't seen them. Vincenzi: The average is four fifty five. Storch: Four fifty five. That's what your looking that's the difference also. Uhm the the cost is is more of course but the actual cost of each one of those condominium units you are looking in the vicinity of a half million dollars and that is a significant change as far as your taxes if your concerned uh as far as your concerned with. It also is let's face it you're bringing in people who can then afford to buy a half million-dollar condominium unit into this area and hopefully that money will spread throughout the community. That's what's happened in other locations. Preserve natural resources. We talked about the fact that by doing this you preserve vast amounts of open space. I've got a map that shows us on another slide but you need to see that because there is a huge difference. Parks and recreation. Uhm the actual impacts of to the site and to the city and to the neighbors is actually limited. But full impact fees would be paid for schools, roads, traffic, emergency services, utilities uh one of the things you saw by the way and I I've told David about this the other day was the fact that uh we had a development that came in uhm was it last week who agreed to pay for a contribution per unit for toward the animal hospital and or to the humane society. Lichter: No. Animal Rescue Facility Storch: Thank you. Lichter: Edgewater's Animal Facility Storch: Which is that's right which is in the process of being developed. David thought that was a fine idea and he would also look at the idea of doing the same thing. Uh increase tax base. Well you've talked we've talked about the fact that the increased the tax base itself could be what doubled Scott. I mean I think that's closer to what you are looking for. More than double as far as traditional development verses this development verses . Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 7 of 59 o o luxury condominium development you're looking at double the tax base and only seven percent of the actual land being uhm dealt with. Heighth of course is a difference. Uh if you're looking at townhouse developments you're probably looking at two or three story high developments. If you're looking at this one you're looking at two buildings one hundred and ninety feet high. I don't think I need a summary right now. How's this? Since it says question time, any time ya'll have a question or a comment you want to bring up during this problem I'd like to hear it so you know don't don't worry about interrupting me. If you have something you want to say Yes Lichter: I just wanted to know how high you kept talking about luxury condos in New Smyrna. What's their tallest building? Storch: They Uh most of their condos are are seven-story. . Lichter: Seven Story Storch: That's right. remember correctly. Seven to nine stories if I Lichter: And they're called luxury. Storch: All All condominiums that are developed now on the water are selling for in the vicinity of a half million dollars and up. The ones in New Smyrna Beach uh are selling for eight hundred thousand. And thereabouts. The ones in Daytona that we're doing and Daytona by the way their heights are in the twenty-story range are going for half million and up. This is what we're looking at now. I mean that's when I say luxury it's because of the actual cost. When someone starts paying that kind of money and again you know it's and up but when they start paying that kind of money for a condominium yes they are luxury. Thomas: Glenn, we're gonna be able to ask questions at the end right? Storch: to. Sure. You can ask questions any time you want Thomas: Okay then we'll do it from the Council and we'll do it from the Planning Board. Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 8 of 59 . o o Rogers: How many stories is this, is there nine stories? Storch: This is sixteen-stories is the proposal. Thomas: That's fine. Storch: That's right. Vincenzi: Sixteen each Storch: Yes each tower would be sixteen stories but I mean it's a Vincenzi: with this? So if you ask questions, you don't have a problem You mentioned the fact that they are low impact Storch: Right Vincenzi: for services and there's not as much as traditional housing. Storch: Far less. I mean and talk to Daytona Beach Shores regarding that but yes that's correct. Vincenzi: Well we need to do I need to do a lot more research as far as what's required to service these types of buildings but the fact that you are saying uh fires don't typically occur in condos of this type and that may be true but does that mean the city does not have to be prepared to handle this kind of thing? Storch: Oh no no no. Here's the difference. In a one and two story townhouse structure yeah you have potential for fires etc but in condominiums, luxury condominiums like we are talking here all those entire condominium buildings are totally uh sprinkled so in in essence that's why you don't have the problem because they are required to be sprinkled throughout the entire uh throughout the entire building. Vincenzi: Yeah but does that still mean the city does not have to be prepared to handle this if something should happen. Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 9 of 59 o o Storch: I think you should be prepared especially for EMT but there's no way you can be prepared to have a ladder that goes up sixteen stories. Vincenzi: I understand that. Storch: Okay. Vincenzi: What kind of specialized equipment is needed? Storch: Scott do you know? Tobin: There is a standpipe system throughout the building that a fire pumper truck can hook up to. It's basically a series of fire hydrants are throughout the building so on each floor there is individual places for them to hook their hoses up. Rhodes: inaudible enter the building Tobin: If they are entering through those standpipes they will. It's not'a problem. It is fully sprinkled and inspected on a regular basis. Rhodes: Okay okay what if the people What about the people in the building? How do they get out? What if the floor below them is on fire? Storch: Right I mean and obviously Rhodes: What if they're on the nineteenth floor or the eighteenth floor or part of the fifteenth floor and the fifteenth floor is on fire? Storch: Obviously we prepare for that. I mean first of all if the elevator system cannot be used there's there's uh fire stairs that go through there. Rhodes: on fire And you can't go down. If the whole building is Tobin: The stairs is a fire rated shaft with a two to four hour firewall? Storch: Right. That's why they design them in that manner. They are actually very safe because of the fact there are areas in which you that are protected from fires. Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 100[59 o o Rhodes: Tracey is that true? Barlow: That is correct. Rhodes: Okay. Barlow: The stairs are designed for emergency egress in situations like that. Storch: And here's the advantage. As we're going through this process ya'll have the right to make sure that they're designed that way because we have to meet your standards but I'm telling you right now that's uhm I don't want to say I come from a long line of firemen but I do so it's important to me that that is taken care of. Rhodes: It's not just that. Storch: I know. Rhodes: I mean you say all these things and it sounds well and good but the fact is that maybe that might be true but maybe it's not. Maybe every person in that building is a retiree. Or maybe it's a family they're the ones who live here and they live here full time. So I think as a city we need to be cognoscente of the fact of what of what the worse case scenario. Storch: Absolutely. Rhodes: We need to be able to accommodate the worse case scenario not just the best case Storch: telling City of No. And absolutely. And and that's what I'm you. This is again this is a new thing for the Edgewater. This is the first condominium tower. Rhodes: Yeah I know that. Storch: Okay. This is the first condominium tower. I want to make certain that these questions are answered for your and if fire safety is an issue for you we will provide some additional information regarding fire safety to make sure that we can accommodate the worse case scenario. Rhodes: inaudible Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 11 of 59 o o Storch: Absolutely. Absolutely. But I understand exactly where you are coming from and we will provide that additional information for you and I will work with Tracey on that. Okay uhm Thomas: Glenn you've got a question from Mr. Card. Card: Wouldn't we have considered Edgewater Harbor to be a condominium complex? Storch: built? I think you would but is Edgewater Harbor being Card: Well that's a real good question and and I would precede any question with with a couple of comments. Uhm one being that uh uh Edgewater Harbor uh appears to have temporary buildings a little clearing and a lot of talk. And Edgewater Lakes seemingly has no visible change in the last six months and my concern here is why did you determine that since the only uhm the only condominium that this group has approved. Uhm This city has approved was eight stories tall I believe. Why did you all determine that it was going to go to sixteen the first time? Is it a matter of of it was the only possible approach. Storch: Uh to to a large extent. I mean you have to look at a couple things here. You have to look at the site itself and we'll be looking at it in a second. In order to make a justifiable condominium project what you're selling is the view. I mean let's face it. That's that's that's how you make a luxury condominium. That's where you get the money and the tax base that you are looking for. You're selling the view. Unfortunately in Edgewater you only have a few small areas in which you can optimize that use. Card: All of which are right around one of the biggest employers in Volusia County. Storch: That's that's that's right so that creates another problem. In fact, one of my my understanding is one of the problems with Edgewater Landing, Edgewater Harbor is the fact let's face it Boston Whaler's right there. It creates somewhat of a conflict in use. I don't have that issue here. And especially if I 'can do it in such a way where I design around any potential adjoining Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 12 of 59 o o property owner by providing green space all around this entire site. Card: Not only that but you make that piece of property on which Boston Whaler now sits extremely valuable. Three million dollars was what Edgewater Harbor I believe paid. Uh my understanding is thirty-five to forty is what they'll flip it for if they sell it which leads me to believe that if we have sixteen stories down the road and every piece of property between Boston Whaler it appears every piece of property between Boston Whaler and uh and this property is currently for sale. Uh investment opportunity I think was the sign. Uhm it it appears to me that uh it's going to be economically appropriate for Boston Whaler to find another place real quick. Storch: I don't know. Card: And sell that piece of property because thirty or forty million dollars as the bottom line uh of even an organization the size of whaler would sure make a nice year's operation. Storch: Well you know I've I've enjoyed Boston Whaler for years. I think they're a good employer and they're a good group of people to work with. What you have to do is to look and see how you can best optimize uh the future for Edgewater and I don't know whether or not Boston Whaler's location is a good one for the City of Edgewater or not. I know they have to have water in order for testing. I will tell you that right now. So that's one question. As to whether or not a condominium tower and the luxury tax base that it creates is something that is good for Edgewater, that's something you need to look at because I mean one of the things you're going to do is if you decide to look at this particular site, this will set the standard as to how it can be done and done appropriately. One of the things that that is most appropriate about this one is that you have a thirty-acre site. You don't have many areas where you have a thirty-acre site to work with. You have a density that's already there. The density was there in the county. The density is here in the City. That's unusual and it's a thirty-acre wooded site, that's unusual. Most of the sites as you know of already have some development on them already. So that's why this may be appropriate for this particular site. But the key is how this impacts the area. How it impacts the and and and if you can create Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 13 of 59 u o that win-win where the developer will take the risk and do this and you've heard of two projects that your not, it's not working. I'm telling you right now David is here to tell you that this is going to happen if the City embraces this. That's an important issue. Fuhrmann: My question is then too like with the Edgewater Harbor problem uhm how is this how are the developers going to handle the situation that they have heavy heavy industrial business right next door to them. Storch: Well again. One of the advantages that we have is that we have a large green area around us. Edgewater Harbor doesn't have that. I mean in essence the site where Edgewater Harbor is was a former asphalt plant. That doesn't create the the best possible scenario. Uh one of the things you are going to see is some pictures later on down the line and you will see how dense that vegetation is but I want to go a little bit further. Garthwaite: I was listening to what you were saying. You said what you're selling is the view and yet in this thing here what they're saying is all you're gonna see from the river and from U S 1 side is the very tops of the buildings. Storch: That's correct. Garthwaite: What kind of view are we selling for the people on the lower floors? Storch: Well from middle of You've gotta but the lower floors green space with you've gotta see what your. we're selling a area in the access to water. Female in audience: Garden views Storch: I've been in those household roams??? But yeah I mean the bottom line is the lower floors probably will not have the same view as the higher floors but they can't. But they can still have some of the amenities of being part of a luxury condominium and that's what you can provide when you get when you get into that kind of money. The key there though is they will also have access to water. And that's important. This is one of the few areas in Edgewater where this can take place. Uhm Smart Growth we've talked about this. Minimizes impact, maximizes green Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 14 of 59 o o area, creates cluster and it's density verses impact. Again the density's there regardless. The question is how can you deal with the impact itself. Okay uh Actually that is one of the things we've been dealing with on the Smart Growth Committee is the fact that we're looking at a doubling of population in fifteen years in Volusia County. Edgewater's probably looking at more than that. We've got to figure out the best possible scenario as to where to place them. Vincenzi: Can we stop there? You said a couple of times the density's there regardless meaning what? Storch: You've got a Comp Plan your County Comp Plan or your County zoning has mostly eight units per acre. Your County Comp your City Comp Plan that was just recently I think approved as is medium density. Is that right? Vincenzi: Page 12 High density Storch: Page 12 High density Vincenzi: The intensity is there through the City Council we approved a few weeks ago. Storch: Okay but the density is there. Vincenzi: inaudible Is what your saying. Storch: That's correct. The density is there uhm and the density was based on probably mostly what the County had already. I mean let's face it part of what you were trying to do was to annex these properties. This was a lynchpin to part of that annexation. When you were annexing these properties to the south uh and to the west I believe you had to have this property as a part of that in order to have a meticulous run zone. I mean it makes sense. You weren't changing really anything. If anything you were improving it. When you're annexing a piece of property like that that already has the density in the County then what you're doing is your taking it and you're saying now if I want to be responsible and make sure this is developed the right way in a way that's consistent with Edgewater and so that's what we're presenting presenting to you as a future vision of what that right way may be. Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 15 of 59 o o Vincenzi: This is anything but this is anything but consistent with what's in Edgewater. Storch: It's new. It's different. But the question is can I make standards that would be consistent with what Edgewater is looking for. If you're looking for more upscale development as opposed to single family residential or townhouse units then I can do that. Thomas: Glenn could you speak into the microphone so the citizens can hear. Storch: I certainly will. I apologize. Card: Did I understand we had the first reading of that annexation uh with the zoning changes? Is that correct? Storch: My understanding is the Comp Plan was approved. Card: Was it just the first Hooper: No. It's been annexed both readings and the Comp Plan Amendment has had both readings. Vincenzi: The second reading will follow the workshop. Storch: What what I tried to do That's okay. What I try to do is like I say is to develop input and make this the best possible development I can and see if I'm going in the right direction. Uhm the developer here again or the landowner here is willing to do that and do it in the right way and I think that's important. This is what the what we were looking at and I'll try to stay on the microphone uh this is what we're looking at with the site in the event we do this in the traditional townhouse method. It basically takes the entire site puts townhouse units throughout it. Uhm we'll have of course buffers along the side and along the setbacks but that's about it. Uhm you will have requirements for stormwater. That's going to be provided for. The amount of impervious surface on the site as you can imagine is far more than the seven percent impervious that we are putting on the site with the luxury condominiums. As the more impervious surface is placed on the site the more uh fill you have to put in there and the more uhm stormwater retention has to be placed on the site in order to hold that. Uhm again this is traditionally to a large extent what's happening in Edgewaterwith lower Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 16 of 59 o 0- heights when uhm you're doing these rural projects. So that's in fact that's I believe Scott what you were looking at doing in the County is that right? So that's where that came from. Minimal space high impact. I think high impact. I mean that's again it's a question of what kind of impact you're looking for but this is the kind of impact that you would have on a site like this. What's the next one? This is the site with the luxury condominiums. Uh As you can see, I'm gonna have to get up and hey look at this. As you can see these are the only sites impacted that and the roadway in and the stormwater itself. The rest of it is maintained the rest of it is maintained in green uhm with uh green vegetation uhm areas toward the river but mostly and very importantly in this case because this is what I was really looking at from U S 1 because that's where your traveling public will notice whether or not this thing goes through or not. Let's go to the next one. Card: Real quickly. Do I understand that you're not going to clear and cut in that area? That it's gonna be remain that it will remain as it is today or are you going to go in and clean it up? Storch: No no. The whole concept. I'm sorry Dave. Hood: We're gonna underbrush it. It will be We're not taking trees down but it will be cleaned up so it will be Card: You're gonna leave the big stuff but you're gonna take the undercut stuff out. Hood: So that it would aesthetically look like a park. Lichter: Where was that last? Where were those last condos? Storch: Let's go back again. Go back Lichter: In the picture before where are they? Gentleman in audience: They don't exist yet. That's just a drawing. That is an artist's rendering of a design that is being done inaudible Storch: This U S 1. Lichter: How many condos are there? Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 17 of 59 o 0 Gentleman in audience: Actually three hundred and eight units. Lichter: Two buildings. That's just that's what the two buildings would look like from miles away. Storch: That's all that's all that's all that would be there. And this is and again you can't see this from US 1. That's what's critical here although we are seeing this from this aerial view to give you an idea of how much of the site is being utilized you cannot see those condominiums from US 1 because that's my question especially after talking to Commissioner Lichner. Lichter: When? About what? You've talked to me about a lot of things. Storch: I know but your question was a valid one because it was right after I guess the vote and what is this gonna look like. Lichter: Right Storch: I think that's very important. What is this gonna look like to everyone? And that's what it would look like if you were flying around in an airplane. Let's keep going. That's the site itself. These are some of the contributions that we'll be giving in the event this goes through. We'll contribute fifty six thousand dollars the first year in annual taxes to Volusia Forever and ECHO. These are just part of the part of the requirements based on the overall tax base that we are talking about. A hundred and seventy seven thousand eight hundred thirty four dollars in City recreational parks and open space and impact fees. That's just to you. That's a cash payment for you to use in acquiring additional parkland not including the area that we are setting aside. Uhm condominiums are set six hundred feet back from the river. The condominiums are over thirteen hundred feet about a quarter of a mile from US 1. And again we talked about the eighty percent open space. Almost and I need to point this out because this isn't almost all the existing trees onsite will be preserved because that gives you the buffer area that you are looking for. The only are we're talking about taking the trees out are the areas where the footprints are Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 18 of 59 o o gonna be for the site itself the amenity areas and access in and out of. Is that right? Gentleman in audience: That's correct. Storch: Okay. All the wetlands of course would be preserved entirely. Card: I must have missed something. If the wetlands are going to be preserved uhm the vegetation isn't going to be preserved from the wetlands. The only thing that is going to be preserved is tall trees. Storch: No no no that's not true. He David was talking about the area that was the upland areas that have trees on them. He was looking at at perhaps creating some uhm uhm areas in which you had some of the underbrush taken out just to make it look better from an aesthetic standpoint. Wetland areas are gonna remain totally inviolent. Card: The northeast corner of the site has a wetland area okay but all of this. Is the rest of the site that high and dry? Gentleman in audience: Yes sir Card: Okay so you won't have to do any fill to build? Gentleman in audience: It's a unique piece of property. Gentleman in audience: No fill Card: No fill. That's amazing. Storch: It is I mean Card: dune. Any place you must be on an eighteen coastal Gentleman in audience: When we get when we get to the pictures taken from the riverfront Mr. Card you will see where there is actually there is actually a shell cliff that's eight foot high and rises on the dune and the land slopes up and down. Storch: And as and as as far as as far as the underbrush is concerned if the underbrush is an issue. I mean most Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 19 of 59 o o people would like to see the underbrush removed because it does create more of a park like setting and that's the concept here. If the underbrush is an issue, you know we can discuss that. We can discuss removing part of it or all of it or whatever but the wetlands itself of course and including the buffer area around the wetlands are going to be untouched and that's the idea. That's the sort of thing you can do when you cluster these areas and put all your density in one location. You can preserve all the areas that are most important to preserve as opposed to spreading them out. If you spread these things out, it is possible that you might have to impact some of those wetland areas I don't know for a fact but that's usually what happens. Vincenzi: I just want you to know I don't mind you talking about clustering in a development like this cause this really is clustering and preserving natural areas around it. Storch: I know Vincenzi: But when you talked about clustering in other development Storch: And you know I avoided doing that very much on the other one. So alright but this but this is this is this is what I was trying to get to. The difference in that one and this one. This is clustering. This is where you take all your density and put it in one small location in order to preserve the rest of the green space. Uhm let's go to the next one. Impact, school road impact, yeah we talked about that. Oh we can talk about that. One million five hundred sixty thousand dollars seven hundred and seventy seven hundred and seventy dollars impact fees paid to the City based on the number of units that we're talking about. That's just in impact fees. A total of one million nine hundred and seventy six thousand six hundred and sixty seven dollars impact fees paid to the County. I take it mostly that's road impact fees. Is that correct? Gentleman in audience: Mostly school Storch: School. Okay. Ah school impact fees one million six hundred thousand dollars. Uh one million one hundred and fifty six thousand dollars annual school taxes generated first year. And again I use this term somewhat with some of my clients because they need to understand Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 20 of 59 o o this. In essence what this is is you have government uhm economics. Sometimes the government will corne in and they'll allow a certain development and the government actually actually costing the government money to allow that development to be there. You know because you have homestead exemptions or whatever else you have a lot of services that are required. It ends up costing the government to allow that development to take place. This is the sort of thing in which the government actually develops a profit. Develop the government makes a profit off this type of development. In this particular case for instance you have first of all school impact fees of one and a half million. You have annual school taxes of one million. Alright one million dollars school taxes per year. The fact is you will not be generating the number of students out of this development to use that one million dollars per school taxes per year. Rogers: What is that number? Storch: You mean the number of students per condominiums. We can provide you with some statistics but the bottom line is most of the condominiums. Rhodes: I just want to know where you get your statistics. Storch: A lot of experience at this point. sales are to people who buy condominiums only homes and they do not bring their and they do their kids into the school system. Most of my for vacation not enter Rhodes: I understand that's your projection I just wanted so it's experience. Gentleman in audience: FH formula The School Board actually does the Storch: There you go Gentleman in audience: in condominiums as well. Storch: And I will find that for you because I'll bet you it's am I right. Rhodes: I can get it myself thanks. I just wanted I mean you can throw out all kinds of maybes and we project and Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 21 of 59 o o everything and this is what happens here and this is what happens there but still this City must be prepared and the schools must be prepared and the roads must be prepared Storch: Absolutely Rhodes: For the fact that what we are telling them is going to happen might not happen. Storch: Absolutely. I I can provide you like I say we can provide you with some studies done showing the number of students usually in condominium projects cause I know they've done that. Uhm We can also probably provide uhm uh road impact fee studies or road impact studies because I think what you can show is these developments utilize these services far less than people who reside here on a full- time basis and I had a certain percentage of people I guarantee you am I right David? I have a certain percentage of people that do not live in these developments. A large percentage as a general rule. Rhodes: Now hearing you say that I want to see where you are getting at. Do you understand what I am saying? Has there been a study done on condominiums and the surrounding areas and do they have facts and figures to back this up. Storch: Absolutely. Rhodes: Or are you just telling me this is experience because as much as I respect your experience Edgewater's way different I a lot of ways. Storch: This is this is I I I appreciate that and like I say this is things we can deal with. David Hood: I'm David Hood. I'm every mother's greatest shame. I'm a lawyer, politician and a developer so I'll give you that preface and get it out of the way. The reality of it is is there is scientific studies that tell you what your absorption is as it relates to. If you've got townhouses it will tell you what essentially how many you get as a family unit. What you'll find and we've developed my partner Joe and I have developed projects and are in the process of developing projects and if you go up just in Daytona I live in a condominium. There's fifty- five families. There's only three of us that have children and out of the fifty-five that are in that condominium Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 22 of 59 o o there's eleven of us that live there full-time. So in my place where I live and if you go up and down the beach and up and down the river and there's scientific stuff that will show you the absorption is much less than if you put in town homes or single family residences because people don't buy town homes and single family residences generally as vacation places or places to come over on the weekend so your point is well taken. Your point is valid in that it needs to be but we'll provide you that and but it's to be fair it's a pretty understood and generic principle and assumption within the business that that's what it is and in fact the school board acknowledges that because that's how they figure out their numbers. But your points well. And and the whole reason we did this because when we found the property, it is a unique piece of property. You've got a real pretty place right down there. The The when we looked at it it was sold to us to build a hundred and eighty six town homes and we looked at it and said it doesn't make any sense because if you put a hundred and eighty six town homes on this property I don't think it's a development you really want and when you look at the financial numbers on the ad valorem property taxes It's financially irresponsible I believe for both us as the developer and as a community to really do it because Edgewater ends up with a huge benefit just off the tax base. So we're in one of those deals I'm not gonna walk up here and tell you we're not doing this because we think we can't make a profit. We are doing it. I'm not gonna brown nose and I'm not gonna lie to ya. We can make more doing it this way but when you look at the property I gotta believe at the end of it you would like it better if I've got still somewhere close to twenty-six acres that is preserved woodland and green land then have a hundred and eighty six town homes there. And we'll be glad to answer any questions you got but that's why we did what we're doing. That's why we're here. Uh and we can get you the specific information you need. Rhodes: I just wanted to know where your facts were coming from. Storch: And David's right. I mean it's somewhat known to everybody in the industry. I have done hundreds of closings and I will tell you what most of them are for. Retirees or vacation. Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 23 of 59 o o Rhodes: And I hear the same thing. But I I this is our city and I would be irresponsible just taking the developers word and what I feel to be true. Storch: Absolutely. Rhodes: I want to be able to show proof to the people that live here and say this is why. This is why this is a good idea or this is why this is a bad idea. Hood: Well I can tell you the marketing company that will market Rhodes: And he's a politician so I'm sorry I Hood: I just want to get that off the table but the reality of it is is the marketing company and the guys that we've hired to do the marketing for us will tell ya they're not marketing it in this area. The marketing area and the people that we sell to will primarily be people buying it for vacation homes and buying it for weekend and obviously there will be some people we hope will buy it to live here. Storch: Mostly retirees. Hood: Yeah mostly retirees. So I mean you don't have to take my word for it. You can take the people who do it day in day out and they'll tell you and that's really what's selling in this particular County at this time. Yes mam Lichter: David I've worked with you in the past if you remember on various commissions in Volusia County but well it was the past and finally what we worked out through the fire uniting with other cities has eventually after what eight years or ten years come about. Do these do people often rent sublease them or rent them? Hood: Well you'll have in the declaration of covenants and restrictions the inability to do that type of thing. I mean this is an upscale Lichter: So that is not being able to be done. Hood: Well that's something that we can talk about but I can tell you when your developing an upscale product as opposed to developing a product that is a two hundred Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 24 of 59 o o thousand dollar your not gonna want the issue with tenants who sometimes are irresponsible and sometimes don't do it so Lichter: And would cause all the things in addition to all the things that you are saying aren't going to be causing. They're not full-time residents. Hood: You'll find that very few of any of these kinds of units are ever leased. Storch: That's correct. Hood: Because there is too much money. When you invest a half million dollars in a unit your not too inclined to be renting that to anyone. Lichter: Many of the townhouses in New Smyrna are subleased. That I know. Hood: Well and Glenn's point when we looked at this project when we bought it we bought it and we looked at it and they came to us saying you can build a hundred and eighty six town homes we bought it. Your gonna get rentals in that. Your not gonna get rentals in this situation. Storch: Yeah the difference is when your looking at paying half a million dollars for a condominium as opposed to the one thirty three or whatever they were paying before, that's what you do have. And I put in my kind of docks Uh I don't allow short-term rentals whatsoever. I'll allow long-term rentals but that's it because they're actually they may be living there for a long time. Hood: And it also hurts our marketing because people when they look at the condo docks and if they can be short- term rentals some people don't want to buy in that situation. Yes sir. Vincenzi: I have enough good authority to think that may be not necessarily true. I mean not that you're lying. Rhodes: That's what not true means. Vincenzi: Maybe not lying but maybe mislead quite a bit. But people that buy five hundred thousand dollar condos Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 25 of 59 . u o sometimes do rent them sometimes they buy them for investments. Hood: I didn't say they never do I'm saying that the likelihood is very much less than if you're spending two hundred thousand on a town home. Storch: Right more importantly if you put in there in the condo docks that they can't Vincenzi: Most do Storch: That's right and they prevent it. Vincenzi: I'm not telling you you have the right inaudible. Storch: And here's and I will tell you this some people especially when they speculate they will sometimes buy it and try to rent these things to make back their mortgage payments. You can't do it in a case like this. You're seeing sometimes along the beach you rarely see it along the river. Hood: And I'll give you an example. The reason why it financially makes no sense. If I'm spending five hundred grand that puts my mortgage payment my ad valorem and my insurance at four and five grand a month. There is no market to be renting anything that gets you close to that. I understand the concern about the rental but there's a practical impact that keeps it from ever really happening in this kind of situation. Fuhrmann: Uhm I have a confession to make too I do a lot of business with Boston Whaler in my business and you know I am I am really concerned about the impact that it would have. I have I have actually spent a little time with the president of Boston Whaler and asked him you know what he thought about uh uhm you know the condominiums going up next door. My question is are you going to be able to sell a five hundred thousand dollar condominium with a boat factory just to the north of it and I know there's a tree line and I see that the way it's designed that it's not facing the north but there's still gonna be I mean it's a it's a boat factory. There's going to be smells. There's going to be fiberglass dust and stuff like that. And from my uhm from my uh talking with him he told me that they have really no intention on leaving anytime in the next ten Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 26 of 59 . o o years supposedly. If they did leave I don't think they would stay in Edgewater so the economic impact would be pretty I mean I know all the guys that work in there and most of those guys that work there do reside in Edgewater and uh a lot of them are not low income jobs. They are decent paying jobs and uh so I am concerned about like I said myself included of the the economic impact if you were to. I mean is there going to be are these residents going to be complaining about having that to the north? Storch: Let me take that. Hood: Let me take the one before you get to it. I play golf with him. In fact we talk about it because when Hawk McMillan was putting his thing up that was his complaint all along is now I am gonna have people complaining and yipping and yapping on me because of the "smell. Well our problem we're we're not anywhere we're close but we're not where Hawk built his deal. I wouldn't have done that deal. And we're down and frankly from our viewpoint when the marketers because of the view and because of us keeping it pristine we'll be able I mean I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't think I could sell them and we already believe we're going to end up with an oversell because of the because one Edgewater's nice two the view that this property has is very good and yes you might be able to see the plant but if you'll notice how we designed it we minimize that fact Fuhrmann: Exactly Hood: and you know what it's our risk really more so because Boston Whaler I can tell ya he's not going anywhere and where we're going to be has no impact on his world on your plant and on your jobs because if that was true I don't blame ya I'd be up in arms and say we have we really have a choice here. Fuhrmann: Well yeah if you were selling on the contingency that Whaler was going to be gone any time in the near future I would Hood: Understand where we are is if we could get if this gets moved we're at the point we were actually putting our cell center up this month but because of the delay we obviously aren't spending the money to do that. So this thing is ready to go. Uh and clearly it's our risk because Boston Whaler I hope is going nowhere and it's our problem Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 27 of 59 . o o selling the units understanding that to the north is a Boston Whaler plant. Storch: And I want to clarify. I mean I have represented Boston Whaler and continue to represent them dealing with their permitting issues. I I do not you know the last thing I want to see is any thing that would hurt Boston Whaler. I see this as no conflict whatsoever. In fact if anything the townhouse development which would go right up along you know closer to their uhm to their manufacturing area would probably be more of an impact than the townhouses than the than the luxury condominiums. That's that's how it was designed. Hood: Plus you'll have people living in the townhouses more year round Storch: That's correct Hood: As opposed to coming down. So and then I wanted to make one point I forget there was somebody asked the question why we're high. We put the parking within the building so as to decrease the amount of of pavement and asphalt that would have to as well as the amount of trees and the amount of green space that would be taken down by putting the parking within the building which is more expensive frankly. Card: I noted that you put two floors Hood: Yes sir Card: The first two along that same line I also noted that uh you uh figured that there were going to be one point five cars per household without any guests. Hood: That's the formula that they use. Gentleman in audience: There's a city development code that we have to conform to because we don't inaudible. Card: Well something tells me that people who are making two hundred and fifty to three hundred thousand dollars a year which are the people that you are going to be dealing with here are going to own two cars. Where are they going to park them? Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 28 of 59 . '-.) o Storch: Well first of all there is there is some guest parking but more importantly if you'll look at the way the parking studies show this everyone doesn't come at the same time. You have uh you have more than enough parking available. In fact Card: Four hundred and eighty nine parking spaces for three hundred and eight units Storch: Yeah. One point five is probably generous as far as what's necessary. Hood: That's what the code is, isn't it? Storch: That's right. That's what the code is. Hood: We wanted to do what we were your code says for us to do. Storch: If you're looking at residences who probably live here then you're looking at at providing more impervious surface. Hood: I mean the reality is if you want us to do more that's not the issue. We'd be glad to pave asphalt and take trees down but I didn't think that's really what you would like us to do. Card: What Uhm well uhm what is your uhm intended what is your projected occupancy? What are you projecting that these people will obviously you're if I describe your marketing strategy properly you're going to market to retirees and vacation homeowners who will live here parts of the year who make probably in the vicinity of two hundred to two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year and are Storch Oh no Card: And own properties that are half a million to a million and a half at the high level. Is that reasonable? Hood: Not all that is. There's parts of that that was reasonable. I mean the reality of it is there's a market if you go to South Daytona if you go to Daytona Beach Shores you go to Port Orange. There's a huge market of people from Orlando and from from Ocala and from other Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 29 of 59 . o (.) . places that are buying these units. There's people frankly our last development we sold almost half to people from South Florida who are coming up now and having a place on the weekend to get away from South Florida. So so the reality of it is I'm not a marketing guy I pay a company to do the marketing and they tell us that really the market of people who are buying these type of units uh are essentially people out of the area the Orlando people the the Ocala. You've got a lot of people coming in from South Florida that I mean our last development we sold almost seventy percent of them to people from South Florida. Card: So you're basically saying that you you think that uh probably sixty percent of the time uhm or sixty percent of the units will be occupied a hundred percent of the time. Hood: No I'm not even saying that. Card: Or obviously in the in the area of sixty-percent at any given time. Otherwise your parking is still clear off. Storch: Well again if you think that we need more parking we can provide more parking but that's what your code requires. Card: Well my concern is for how many cars we're going to have. Hood: Well I'll give you I live in a condo and I have / four cars okay and it has the same ratio that you guys have. Storch: Right one point five, which is standard. Hood: parks his it is you like five And the track is I've got three spaces and my son car on the outside. Uh and so but the reality of have enough units there's enough parking there's cars they get parked outside and that's it. Card: Well then your your trips that are shown later in your presentation here are based on uhm on not having a bunch of people living there most of the time. Storch: We're all we're doing is dealing with reality. Reality is condos have less people living full time and. Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 30 of 59 o o Card: My concern is that that there One of the things about smart growth is you want to make sure you keep your shopping reasonably close. Well the shopping is gonna be either at 442 or at uhm 30th. Storch: Okay Card: Now that means they are going to be going up and down U.S. 1 period. Now how many cars are gonna be going up and down U S 1 in on a daily basis that's gonna add to the traffic. Is that in your traffic study? Storch: Yeah Yeah Our traffic study will provide that information to you and we'll certainly look at that although I think you've gotta look at the fact there's gonna be other commercial areas especially in the event this happens because this will help support the Card: I mean after you come in and build Storch: It's a chicken or egg type situation. You've gotta you've gotta have the houses to support the commercial. Card: The problem is is that the people in in communities like Edgewater Landings and Meadow Lakes and San Remo and the Indian River School and Florida Shores are going to be impacted at 30th Roberts Road or 442 by this traffic. Storch: Pat We've we've the density is there. The issue is how do we want to what how do we want to spread this density. If we want to if we want to spread it with a luxury condominium which we believe certainly generates less traffic then uh single family or townhouse residential Card: That's what I want you to tell me. traffic is this gonna generate? How much less Storch: And I can provide that information and since we're going through this process I mean obviously you can get a number of cracks at us. We're gonna go through the Planning Board hearing on this. We're gonna have uh what two City Commission hearings Gentleman in audience: Correct Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 31 of 59 o o Storch: So we will have we will have and I really appreciate this workshop because this gives us a chance to prepare to answer those questions, which are very valid questions. Hood: He appreciates it because he gets to charge us for three more meetings. Card: Big money makes fast friends. You'll notice that. Along this uh along this same line though uhm if uhm the price ranges that you're looking at are extremely high uhm five hundred and up Storch: No Hood: No. Card: No. Storch: Average of four fifty Hood: Four fifty Card: Average four fifty. Storch: Yes sir Card: Median or mean Hood: It's the average so you've got some at three fifty and some at six hundred. Card: Is that the median Vincenzi: The golf course inaudible Lichter: It depends on your view. Hood: That's exactly correct. Card: Okay okay that's the range from three to a million Hood: Obviously you get more per square foot at the top than you down on the third floor Card: Okay very good Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 32 of 59 o o Hood: Mayor Thomas: When uhm you said you were gonna protect the wetlands Hood: Yes sir Thomas: And I'm assuming the wetlands the only wetlands that I could see by the aerial photograph were adjacent to the river which is our uh filtration area Storch: Absolutely Thomas: Then I read in here there's a possible forty two boat slips uhm how are you planning on doing that is that gonna be a boat dock there or and can I direct this to Mr. Hooper how many boat slips are we allowed to give out for the city in the manatee plan uhm Storch: I can start with that. Thomas: Okay Storch: First of all that's not part of the project at this point. We would have to come into you later on and get approval for that and have to negotiate that out. Secondly if you're going to do that what we would have is probably a single pier going through those wetland areas to reach those the marina area and that's that way you have minimal. Is that right? Tobin: No we actually have an area that is not wetlands, which is a sandy beach shore, where the single pier would go on. You won't even touch the wetlands. Storch: Even better. Hood: The only wetlands are up by U S 1 .correct? Tobin: No the northeast corner along the river there is inaudible Hood: I don't know you've been to the property it's got white beach and we won't even be close to where the wetlands are. Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 33 of 59 o o Storch: And and but the concept is by doing this as a grouping as opposed to having you know a bunch of different piers there you have far less impact and but we can we can work on that later on and deal with that with you and corne back Thomas: Well I'm interested how many boat slips do we have to sell or give away Hooper: Four hundred and eighteen Thomas: Four hundred and eighteen in the manatee plan Hooper: Correct and you've committed zero? Thomas: Okay now would we charge money for these or what what would be the deal with that? Hooper: The concept is that if they were going to a public use, Edgewater Harbor, was going to have a public area for a marina for restaurants commercial. Those would be given for public access. If it's for private use only those would be leased or sold. Thomas: sold. Okay so in this area they would be leased or Hooper: Correct Thomas: Okay uhm my next question was uhm how far from the river you said six hundred feet Storch: That's right Thomas: Are we going to great extremes not to have runoff going into the river? Storch: Absolutely Thomas: Okay uhm Storch: And in fact if you look at that that site plan that we had everything is maintained on site up to at least twenty-five year storms is that correct Scott? Tobin: Yes Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 34 of 59 Storch: o (.) Okay Thomas: Alright on the green space uhm I read what percent you're gonna use alright let's say that Storch Eighty percent Thomas: Right and your gonna leave the other percent but uhm let's say in the future that this is just a fantastic deal that goes through uhm and you want to build another one is there gonna be something in the contract that says that you cannot do that. Storch: Even better what I can do is working with the landowner and with the city we can provide a conservation easement over those segments that uh that we have in green space and that will prevent ever using those sites for uh development again Thomas: contract. Storch: Thomas: and out. equipment Okay well that's we want that in there in the For sure I understand Uh and we said there was gonna be an easement in I'm sure there's gonna be some heavy heavy to construct those uhm condominiums Storch: Oh absolutely but you'll have you'll have roadways that are gonna go into the site and we'll use the same driveways that we're gonna have as our construction accesses to is that right? Hood: We're not gonna build it twice. Thomas: And uhm what they were talking about leases and this is in no way shape form or fashion going to be a timeshare right. Hood: share Thomas: Hood: No I can assure you it's not gonna be a time Pardon me Absolutely never. Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 35 of 59 o Q Thomas: that we want to Okay uhm alright what if what if uhm we decided were not gonna go along with the heighth would you build a third to get your uhm density Storch: I don't know if the project would work to be honest with you. One of the problems is if you add a third tower to it you take away the access your visual access to the water. Hood: We actually decided not to do a third tower for several reasons. One it takes up a whole lot more of the property Storch: Oh that's true. Hood: And you lose the green space. You also end up in a situation where the value of the property won't be the same and you know we actually the first design we did was with three buildings and when we worked with the city it made no sense. You're better off with the two buildings. -It gives you better visual. You take up less of the property and your tax base gets more uhm from your viewpoint has a higher return than if we do three buildings. Thomas: Okay and uhm I saw you know how much money we're gonna gain through the City. Mr. Hooper are we gonna have to hire any more employees in the city to uhm ~o for these future needs. Hooper: We probably won't. What you'll see as you expand to the south adding about a thousand units down there there's at least a little more parks kind of people for right-of-way clean up but very little and nothing that I could tell you would be specifically to this site. It is a fairly small small impact. Dave's correct. There's not a lot of impact from condominiums. Storch: And we're not even done showing you all the additional fees you're gonna be getting. All the money. Thomas: Are you uhm Storch: Let's go to the next one. Thomas: Are you about complete with your presentation or Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 36 of 59 o o Storch: Uhm let me let me finish up real quick as far as the numbers your gonna get. Thomas: Well let's hold the comments and then we'll go down and I'd like to hear from the Planning and Zoning Board and then the City Council and then if we have any comments from the citizens. Storch: Okay. Thank you. Uhm City impact fees on roads alone will be two hundred and seven thousand dollars. The County of course is three hundred thousand dollars. We should try and get the County to uh devote some of those impact fee uh credits to this segment of the County as we're doing this. Again it's a half a million dollars right there. All roadwork on the site itself will be paid for by the developer. It's private and gated. No public money will be used. No maintenance would be required. We will be maintaining everything. Uhm it has a single access on US 1 so no city roads are impacted. The original land use designation uhm generated sixteen hundred and nine trips. The approved uhm your Comp Plan approved allows for nineteen hundred and eight trips. This condominium would generate thirteen hundred and eighty five trips. That's what we were talking about before. This actually generates far less uh trips per day uh based on the studies. And that's at a hundred percent occupancy which is what we which is what we typically see in condominiums you're looking at four sixteen to six ninety three. That's almost a third less then what we would have under a residential subdivision. Card: I have a specific question to ask her. Thank you Storch: We'll get there. Uh let's go to the next one. Our police and fire impact fees that we would be paying based on your present rates are seventy two thousand dollars cash payment. The buildings of course will be protected by an automatic fire sprinklers. Uhm the stand pipe systems we talked about. We will provide more information regarding that as we go through the process because I think that's important to stress. Uh demographics of residents are typically low on emergency services. We talked about that. Occasionally we'll have some health issues uh as far as uh ambulances. Yes. Our estimated city impact fees are END OF FIRST CD - 70.16 Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 37 of 59 o o Storch: County and City taxes eleven thousand dollars per unit. Uh that means we'll pay over nine hundred thousand dollars in city taxes the first year we're open. The faster we can get open the faster can get those city taxes paid. Uh oh that's interesting. This is a six point four percent increase in the City's tax base right now. Uhm we'll pay eighty four hundred dollars annually to retire the city bond issue. We'll also pay a a total of three hundred three million three hundred and ninety three thousand eight hundred and ten dollars in annual property tax to the city and the county. Again, I've talked about this before. Historically most condominiums are not homesteaded so the tax base will increase more rapidly than other other units. Uhm at the current rate of escalation real estate values in Edgewater twenty seven percent after five years Edgewater could payor River Oaks could pay two million three hundred and forty one thousand dollars in city taxes. I think that's you know that's based on twenty- seven percent. I can't imagine that continuing to increase like that but still you will have continue to increase continue to increase especially on waterfront property. That property seems to go continue to increase much faster. The height, a hundred and ninety uh feet. The main roof I mean this is some architectural features is a hundred ninety feet. The main roof is one hundred and sixty feet. Height is required to preserve the open space we talked about. that. The buildings will not be visible from U S 1 or the intercoastal waterway shoreline due to the preservation of trees and setbacks. Do we have those helicopter? There we go. This is a helicopter at a hundred and ninety feet viewed from the riverbank. Hood: feet. You'll see that where the property rises up six Card: Yeah I noticed there was a shell wall. Storch: Because the first thing I asked is what can you see of that thing uh at those at those heights? Because I would have went over that. We did the same thing when I was doing Island Town Center. We had some computer graphics showing what this you'd actually end up seeing. There we did some balloon tests. We couldn't do balloon tests because of the fact it was too windy. The helicopter worked even better. Let's go to the next one. Tobin: Another angle. Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 38 of 59 o o Storch: Okay again this is from the riverbank. two twenty from the riverbank so obviously we are that. This is two twenty from U S 1. This is far below Tobin: If there is a helicopter. Storch: But that's that's the point. The whole idea here as you are driving past although you'll have a nice entrance feature and you'll know something's back there and it'll be gated you won't see the tower. It won't stick out like a sore thumb which is what we were worried about. It will blend in with the trees. It will blend in with the area and at the same time, work with the surrounding area. From what you're showing here you had to go up to what eight hundred feet in order to see it from US 1. That's what we're looking at and that's directly over the site. Is that correct Scott? Tobin: yes Storch: Okay. This is the view from This is the actual view from the top unit in case you're interested. Vincenzi: I'm thinking you guys are really good at your job? Storch: Uhm and it will be a beautiful view and that's the whole concept here. And go back to the last one. Is that the Boston Whaler site? All right again we've aimed everything though away from that view so that you're not looking necessarily at that even though you do have that view. What's next? Tobin: That's where you start to see U.S. 1 from the helicopter at eight hundred feet. Storch: Okay. The City will receive two million five hundred thousand on impacts and first year taxes. You'll have a nine hundred thousand city annual tax base which will increase more rapidly because most units will not be homesteaded. The project utilizes space growth or I'm sorry space growth smart growth with clustering and open space and of course we talked about the fact that it has far less impacts and generates great greater tax base than any other project that can be built on this site. This is a use question. If the use is appropriate and we've done Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 39 of 59 o o it the right way and we'll continue to work with everyone to make sure we do it the right way and it's safely done then that's what I'd like to know but from a workshop standpoint I'd love to hear any comments and and. Thomas: We're gonna do that right now Glenn. Are you complete? Storch: I think so. All right thanks. Thomas: Uhm at this time I'd like to hear from the Planning Board and I'm sorry that I don't know everybody. Mr. Card could you call on them one at a time. Do you know their names? Card: Would you like to comment? Fuhrmann: Yea I'm from the Thomas: Let me hear let me hear your comments and your concerns. Fuhrmann: My name is Todd Fuhrmann. Yea I mean uhm from the overall view it looks like a good plan and all that. I'd like to hear I mean every time we have a pro there's got to be a con. I want to know a little bit more about the con before I would make any decisions. There's got to be inaudible. And you know but I mean uh on the overall I think it is you know it looks like the best use. It's a it's a big piece of property like like they say from US 1 it is it's it's a long piece of property and so I imagine that you're not going to be able to see it very much from U S 1. Card: Sandy would you like to comment? Jones: Sure. I'm Sandy Jones. Uhm I too agree that this is a good use for this property. Uhm I like the clustering. I think it looks good aesthetically. I wouldn't agree with your real estate figures. Uhm they're pretty aggressive. I think the real estate is being (?bloodly awful over here tonight right now?) So for future dollars. Storch: This let's watch that Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 40 of 59 o o Jones: Yeah yeah a little more concerned on that and of course I think in planning it out obviously we need to pay close attention to some of the things that you mentioned to make sure that it doesn't turn into and as you said it's that kind of money most people typically do not rent those properties out. Storch: We could we could actually run the condo docks by you by you by your staff as part of this process. Jones: And I think thirdly is to make sure that we don't cover any more of that green space. I mean that's the whole point of clustering. We've all seen in Daytona, in Ormond Beach and in South Daytona where all right let's do this in the front and that went over so well okay let's do it in the back so inaudible Card: John Weiss would you like to comment? Weiss: Pat Just a couple of things. As uh Pat mentioned uhm you've got to see some negatives to this as well as a lot of positives from your perspective. I too have some concerns about the negatives that might be evolved here. Uhm I guess the biggest concern I have is even though this may seem like a great project to be creating uh you know we have New Smyrna on the ocean of high rise condominiums now are being built on those properties that comes available that's for sale. Uhm I know inaudible it's probably the difference is what we do with this property but I think overall we should be thinking about all this other property that's along the river. Are we creating something that may get out of control down the road? Storch: That's why I was looking at this as a standard because if you have this much property where you can maintain that green space then it may be appropriate somewhere else but otherwise I think that this is fairly unique. Hood: It's the same issue in Daytona Beach. The argument was we don't want to see Ocean Walk all the way down the beach and what they did was they dealt with it with setbacks and clustering. If you if you see what their Planning Board has done in the last couple of months which I think is what you're articulating and I think we tried to do it by clustering it and then you've got wide setbacks so that you don't end up with your concern. I hope that Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 41 of 59 o o Weiss: You're addressing the problem quite well. But inaudible this land but as we look at other properties uhm I may not have the same situation you have but yet if we allow this how are we going to look to the other ones to inaudible down the road Hood: Well you'd have a huge distinction. I think I don't think you cause I can tell you we looked for property up and down and I don't see too many other properties. Weiss: Thank you. Vopelak: I think John makes the point Ed Vopelak I think that's the point really when you look at the whole figure. Look we work within a fabric of codes rules and regulations. It fits right if this is what we want. You buy smart growth it fits. Do you buy protecting the environment it fits. You want to enhance the tax base it fits. And certainly everything we've heard okay it's a great thing but is this what you want in- our fine city. I think that's the best point of view. Card: Do you have? Zeese: I have one concern that they cannot build any more than two units on this particular property. If that isn't in okay as a clause in overall settlement then they could go ahead and build more then we'd be a Daytona Walk, which I don't think Edgewater wants. Vopelak: There's another one. Isn't that the purpose of a planned development? You've got a contract. Inaudible due to too many people speaking at one time. Storch: And I can I can prevent that legally and I can prevent it forever. Rhodes: Never say never Zeese: At least twenty years. Garthwaite: Bob Garthwaite uh everyone's pretty well said it. It sounds like a good idea. If you want green areas the way you felt uh I think there's some open issues that staff's gonna have to work on. We definitely want to Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 42 of 59 .' o o protect the city and the residents of the city. Otherwise it looks good. Thomas: Pat Card: Uhm I have I have some continued questions. One of them is whether we can feel that we are dealing with the end developer because as you all have probably been aware our RPUD's go with the property. Uhm uh our standard RPUD moves with the property unless they don't build within a reasonable length of time, if I understand that correctly. Is that right? Uhm which means that uh if uh this individual were to sell the property as we're seeing now at uh the uh uhm Edgewater Harbor uh the RPUD that that will come before us if we uh recommend its approval and City Council approves it it goes with the property on sale so I have uh some concerns about that. Uhm uh I really wonder uhm if and and and don't anybody uhm don't anybody uh uh feel that I'm turning green here but are there protective species on this site. Uh I don't know a thing about that uh but I would think that there are because this frankly is the headwaters for uh uhm part of the headwaters for uh the Indian River the Indian River. Uhm and I would expect Thomas: there. You're probably looking at gopher tortoises Card: If so what are you going to do with them? Thomas: The only problem the thing you would probably be affecting would be gopher tortoises and uh maybe some filiated woodpecker. Tobin: We actually had an initial environmental study done on the site. There was there was nothing seen but obviously a full environmental study would be done prior to development. Storch: And if there are gopher turtles on site that you can literally take them rescue them and place them in locations. Card: Dan I I really am uh impressed with the fact that this is dry enough that you're not gonna have to do any fill. Uhm which leaves me to wonder what you're gonna do with the uh uh with the uh additional uh stuff that your gonna have to grade out of your uh water retention area. Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 43 of 59 i:' <.) () Hood: We'll be glad to sell it if you Card: I really don't want it but uh Storch: I might. Thomas: Thank you Pat Fuhrmann: I've got one more question to add to that. What does it do to the property owners to the south. I mean how does that impact them? Woman: : Thank you thank you finally ?: I noticed there were a couple of pictures on Jones Fish Camp Road where people are living. You couldn't see the helicopter. There was a picture of a helicopter shooting out over Jones Fish Camp Road and you couldn't see the road. Fuhrmann: Well the thing is something's gonna go there. At what you know being residents there would you rather have a high class condominium or would you rather having something else? Woman: That completely shadows on our property. We're the second from the end on that road. That huge monstrosity we'd be in the shadow. Thomas: If you wait just a minute we're gonna have citizens comments and we need to get your name on record please. We'll now take comments from the uh Council. We'll start with Mrs. Lichter. Lichter: Alright I want to just make in general this comment. When Florida Shores came in there was a lot of negativity. Florida Shores obviously wasn't the most perfect project with no roads no sewers but someone had a right to sell that land and they did. There were no PUD's then. Edgewater Landing where I live came in. There were a lot of chuckles and a lot of comments from the rest of the City about manufactured homes still being called by some natives trailers. Okay very close together etc. And yet it got built and it hasn't cost the City anything. So I think we're lucky if we can take it in, the property in and the County doesn't build on it because had it be the same Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 44 of 59 ~ o o amount of traffic or more if the County had their way and built the density's the same as it was before and I think that can be controlled. I was basically concerned because I was a little shocked with the idea of two towers sticking up maybe the neighbors couldn't see the river after this presentation maybe it's gonna block the view. After this presentation I realize you can't even see it from the street. If someone wants to live thirteen stories up I would not even if I had a good view. I'm not fond of heights but if somebody really wants to make pay kind of bucks to live in that penthouse that's their privilege and and also it's known there's a factory down there. By the way Hacienda has never complained about the smell. The project that was closer to it that hasn't quite gotten off the ground made all kinds of commitments and the City agreed to make sure it was tell enough so the smell went someplace else. I don't know what happened to those things if they're still they're still working. So we kind of took care of that problem and worked with Boston Whaler uh a nice neighbor and you know there's always room for them in the industrial park if they want to come in with their subsidiary over there but meanwhile I don't think they're going anyplace. This seems like it's plenty far away. So all in all I think my problem you know I've gotta be able to adjust to new times. I'm not a spring chicken and I'm used to a certain house on a certain sized lot with a place for the kids to play and all but it is the 21st century and apparently we have only some areas that can be nicely used for this type of thing. I don't think everything on the waterfront needs to be the same everything on the river. This is a unique one that lends itself to this. Uhm Smart growth does not talk about clustering in a schoolbox for every single project." It doesn't work for very project. They have other tools but in this case it happens to work. So I'm satisfied tonight. Now this is not coming to the City Council immediately. We voted twice to take the land into the City the project but I think this is in the ballfield in your ballfield of Planning and Zoning where you will be looking it over making the decisions working it out with Darren and then it will come to us. So I'm very pleased with the amount of money coming into the City the least amount of impact on the wetlands and the green spaces and you make sure you make that check again with the animals because they're very important. Thank you. Thomas: Thank you Ms. Lichter. Councilwoman Rhodes Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 45 of 59 o o Rhodes: I voted no on the annexation because I I don't like this density. It passed your annex thing. I voted no on the density. I don't like high density. We've got enough people here I think your responsible as being common talent inaudible you already have. That means that that passed too. So those are facts. That's reality and you have to deal with it. I think since those two conditions already exist and cannot be undone that this is the best use of this property of all the things that I have seen and uh to reiterate I won't bother. Judy gave chapter and verse why it's a good idea. You've all heard here why it's a good idea. If those two conditions exist this is the best way for this property to be developed in my opinion. Thomas: Thank you Councilman Rhodes. Vincenzi. Councilman Vincenzi: First of all I want to say one more time the reason it's high density is because people approved it. I didn't necessarily vote for the high density. If it was up to me it would be lower. Second I don't agree with your assessment on. the impact on local roads. I think there's going to be more than zero impact. Even if even if there is a minimal impact the problem which you are well aware of I'm sure is that you've got a bunch of these developments and each one has a little bit of impact and before you know it there's a lot of impact on the roads. I don't expect you to go you know footing the bill for widening US 1 or anything like that but I'm just saying I don't agree with your totally your assessment on the impact of local roads. Uh I would like to see some information either from you guys or from maybe Mr. Hooper can dig it up on similar projects. I'm not talking about condos that are on the ocean in New Smyrna or anything like that but condos in other areas that are on the riverfront. Storch: Right because you're right they're different. Vincenzi: Right they're not equivalent and I think people that buy condos over on the oceanfront maybe similar but they're not the same type of people. There's a lot more people that do buy you know the oceanfront view and the top floor because they want to go there a month or two a year or whatever. You may have some that year maybe a lot of it but I want to see information on similar projects, not information comparing oceanfront and what not. But I'd like to see that. Uh things like you know the things you Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 46 of 59 " o C) talked about uh occupancy rates, number of trips, how it impacts the schools. All that sort of stuff on similar projects, not just oceanfront properties. And the other thing I'm probably gonna get yelled at afterwards but I think you guys should rethink if you want to make an additional donation to the city you should rethink where you want to send that because the City has a lot higher priorities and needs then just supporting the animal shelter. So that may be something you want to think about. Lichter: It won't? Vincenzi: No I'm not saying that you have to okay. None of this stuff is mandatory like making an animal shelter donation. I'm saying Storch: I understand. I I was trying to deal with where it seemed where you were looking for it before and so we discussed that. Vincenzi: Well Ms. Lichter loves the animal shelter. Lichter: Well I I did not ask for that. Vincenzi: I know. Lichter: The citizens voted to build that building but there are some things needed inside it and I guess that's why it was done. Storch: We will certainly look at reviewing that. Lichter: That certainly did not come from me. take that kind of inaudible I don't Vincenzi: I think you need to give input so. Storch: I appreciate that. Vincenzi: Other than that I think the project the way it's been explained the use of the land I think is about as good as it's gonna to get on that property. So I uh you know I said when I came into this workshop I had an open mind and I think you've done a decent job of explaining things. Like I said I don't agree with everything you said but I think you've done a decent job of explaining the situation and the use and other factors that are involved. My mind Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 47 of 59 .- <.) o is still open and I'm sort of leaning toward reviewing the not worth but like I said there's a lot more information that we need. Storch: This is a workshop. We're starting the process and we'll get you the additional information and I appreciate that. Vincenzi: That's all I have. Thomas: Councilwoman Rogers. Rogers: Well you've heard from Rhodes and you've heard from Vincenzi and as far as the first thing I was going to mention is this property is zoned. I mean you've got high density residential. We're stuck with it. There's gonna be a lot of properties that's gonna be coming to the Council that we're stuck. It's already been zoned. Things have already happened. This property is zoned for high density, which is eight point one to twelve units and they're going with the lower end of that, which is good. Uhm I like the idea of this particular development because there's just two buildings. I don't like the height. Uhm and the reason why I say I like it is we're stuck at this point because eight units. Do we want eight homes per acre? Is that basically what it would be like? Storch: That's correct. Tobin: This is this is actually ten ten homes per acre. Storch: But it's on the low end. It's not Rogers: It's on the low end but these are my concerns. I'm looking at these numbers uhm and what I'm hearing is these are your best guesses, these are your experiences. This is from inaudible. You've done developments before. I'm sure that you also did estimates of those developments before and they are final. If we could see those estimates uh let's say developments similar to this one in a location similar to this one. We're not on the beach so to compare us to New Smyrna Beach, I don't think that's fair because most of the condos there are on the ocean. This is going on the river. Uhm the river it's not very inaudible at this point not like it is let's say across from Menard May Park etc. We also have uhm I believe it's a no wake zone down in that area. I travel the river. When I moved here Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 48 of 59 .. ~ o o I loved to go out for boat rides. I don't like to go out very often. We're sitting in a no wake zone. Okay uhm so my concern is the people that are gonna be spending an average of four hundred and fifty five thousand dollars per unit they're gonna want to have a boat. Uhm what's gonna happen to the the boating situation? Uh I'm concerned about that. So anyways let me go back. I would like to see an example of again something that you have previously developed and I would like to see your estimated numbers and the actual numbers. Uhm I would also like to see what studies if you've done any on transportation. I'm very concerned about the transportation in the City, the impact. These people will be coming in at various times to the grocery stores and all of that is going to be impacted. Uhm I'm also concerned with the water. Have you spoken to Terry Wadsworth. Storch: Yes is that right. We've checked to see that we have capacity is that correct? Tobin: Yes. Storch: Yes Rogers: Have you spoken to him and found out. We need to find out does the City of Edgewater have the capacity to handle this. We have a lot of developments that are gonna be coming to us that guess what the property's been zoned. Again we're gonna be stuck. Are we gonna be able to handle it? My feeling is at this point we're not. So I have a lot of other concerns but again we have what two City Council meetings. There will be another P & Z meeting. I will have more questions. Storch: That's fine and like I say that give us a chance to answer these questions but you know some of the threshold questions you've asked can the city provide the services if necessary, the water and sewer services, I know we check that first because that's the first thing you do before you even buy property. Rogers: We have so much other developments that are going on now. I mean look at Edgewater Harbor. It's a mess. They came up and offered the best set of numbers and the City was gonna get all this tax money and the city approved it and it's not here. Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 49 of 59 .~ o <) Storch: And I'll be honest with you. Part of that is a design issue. I mean the key is you have to design something that's going to sell in order for you to get that tax money. Tobin: And part of it is I'm not Hawk McMillan. He's a fine American but I'm not Hawk McMillan. Rogers: That sounds good but I want to see proof. I want to see numbers. Storch: Alright That's more than fair and I appreciate that. Thomas: Thank you. Well Glenn you know how I feel about growth. So uhm but I do respect a developer's right to develop his property. That's a beautiful piece of property. Uhm gorgeous. Mr. Hooper are we are we gonna get enough money to reduce the tax millage? Hooper: Part of what occurs and part of where the goal and the reason that this is annexed is to bring in in essence non-residential and that's what you recall. That's even with the condominiums. You're looking at helping to reduce the tax burden by the commercial, industrial and this high-density type development. The answer is it comes in once it's developed it relieves the current residential tax burden. You've got we'll talk about for three seconds here on the site. People brought up that it's gonna set a precedent. That it's gonna start something and it can't stop. You've got Edgewater Harbor they've already got the high density and it's been approved. We're in the building and permit stage. Inaudible They had the building permits turned into the city for a hundred and fifty four units. Sold them all a hundred and fifty four. And I think what they're going through is refunding some of that inaudible market. This is the one we're talking about tonight and this is the inaudible third which has really been identified as potential high density on the east side of u.S. 1. All of this is low density residential over here. And a lot of this already has existing development so you don't have the opportunity to corne in to do other things. Those three spots are what you're talking about sixty acres, thirty acres and about forty acres. That's the limitation of places. This is Terra Mar. We bought the public utility there. This is a forty-acre inaudible. The current city limits are at the bottom here and here to be Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 50 of 59 .' o o annexed Inaudible At this point Ariel Road is the area we talked about. some of the complaints you heard on the drainage the other night Shady Oaks is in the unincorporated county. And you've got folks talking to us here. Inaudible Annexed on that side. Most of that is already broken up into smaller lots. Inaudible annex property once it's broken and subdivided into lots. That has canals, waterfront property, high values. This area is soon to be brought in under one PUD. So this inaudible is a townhouse. Card: Ken is the property just north of this property, that property right there. Is that one owner? Hooper: I think there's two owners. Card: That's what I thought and that and that is what separates from Boston Whaler. Hooper: This is Whaler and this is a piece of Whaler. It's purchased. That twenty-six acres is a buffer area. And they didn't have any plans at this point. This is also Card: Another thirty acres or so. Lichter: In terms of the water question uhm in a school when these developers come in do they not contact or does the city contact the Board of Ed in terms of some of these projects and get the okay and told us they were planning to put another inaudible to much and put another elementary school between us and Oak Hill. Hooper: Sure. What your talking about is exactly what the School Board does. They have a formula that says you've got a condominium inaudible and a single-family house in a residential neighborhood with children. They have that. They make a few projections. When this was sent off to the state for the land use they they make their comments and say they either have enough or don't have enough student capacity. Inaudible currently there is capacity there but there won't be in the future. Help us find a school site. You saw that at your last meeting. Same thing on the water and sewer. Everyone of these that are coming in has got to go through a process. If there's not water and sewer you've got to change the land use. I think so far we've been if there's not water capacity sewer capacity we're not bringing it to you as the Council to Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 51 of 59 ,,' o o change the land use so all those that Debby's talking about have capacity. It's out there. Either the County's sewer system or the City's water system but it's out there. It has now reached that point. So the land use you see in front of you and the land uses you've changed you have capacity but you don't have much for the future until we expand the water system or expand the sewer system. Thomas: So my question was to you would that possibility reduce our tax millage. Hooper: Yes Rogers: But that tax millage reduced would be five forty or five forty five. Hooper: I don't know what that would be. Rogers: I'm thinking it would be. Hooper: It's lower. Rogers: We're at six point four five so one mill doesn't do a whole lot for me. Lichter: Well I if I may it inaudible not be that Florida Shores roads and sewers are finally paid for within a year or two and that will come off because the city's paying a third of that in taxes. What happens with that bond? Hooper: there. Well you have some assessments that are out Lichter: No I mean in terms of each side of the street is paying a third in taxes and we're paying the whole city is paying a third in taxes for what had to be improved in Florida Shores that wasn't put in in the beginning. Do we pay that off soon? Hooper: Two thousand and eleven Lichter: Two thousand and eleven is when that will no longer be on our heads "Thomas: Even though I don't like the growth Glenn I think ya'll did a beautiful job of you know putting that together Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 52 of 59 <) o in the best possible package. Uhm and if you can wait I'm sure we've got some citizens Storch: Absolutely Thomas: That are chomping at their bits. I think they live near there and they want to say something so. Uhm at this time I would open it up for citizen comment and please state your name and your address please. My name is Keitha Sherman. We live at 151 Jones Fish Camp Road. Thomas: We couldn't hear you. What what's your name? Keitha Sherman: I don't know this is can you hear me? My name is Keitha Sherman. We live at 151 Jones Fish Camp Road. Uhm what is the setback for the building from Jones Fish Camp Road? Tobin: Uhm twenty-seven feet at the nearest point. Sherman: From Jones Fish Camp. Card: From the property line Tobin: Property line not the road Sherman: How far is that from the road and what is the estimated time to build? Tobin: About eighteen months to build it out and the south setback is twenty-seven feet. The development code requires twenty and that is from the road. Uhm from the nearest property line it is twenty-seven feet from the road. From the nearest property line I don't have it exactly but it's in the neighborhood of two hundred feet. Sherman From the side Tobin: From the building to the side lot line. Sherman: So we get to hear the hammering and all that goes with it for almost two years. Tobin: Uh the first tower is the one closest to Jones Fish Camp Road and that would be constructed first. Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 53 of 59 . . Q o Sherman: Is is there any way to push it further north so it's not so close because we will be in the shadow of that building. Tobin: No there's not. Right now to get the setbacks and the view and stuff we utilized the site to the best way it could be utilized. Hood: It's two hundred feet if I recall Tobin: It's two hundred feet from the property line to the first tower. Sherman: That's not that far. Hood: And twenty-seven feet from the road. Sherman: Okay seven to nine stories is the average heighth of the buildings in New Smyrna Beach, the condos so if you walk out your door and look across the water that's what you see. Now we're looking at putting something that's over double that size. That is gonna be an eyesore and whether you can see a helicopter in the photographs that they showed I think if you look at the size of those towers it's a lot bigger than a helicopter to be able to see that over the roof tops. The trees in our backyard are about fifty feet high. They're about the average size of the trees that are in the back area behind us the wooded area. There's no way that that can't be twice as high as those trees. Thomas: Thank you. Any other citizens comments? Cordeiro: John Cordeiro, 1515 Pine Tree Drive, I just think this workshop is great. I wish they would have started three years ago and a lot of things wouldn't have gone through and happened. It's too late now. I wish this is really great. I wish they would have started earlier. Thomas: Thank you John. Any other citizens comments? Carlson: I'm Dot Carlson, 1714 Edgewater Drive, and I'm not here tonight specifically representing ECARD. I do have some questions. When you said that you do not have to do fill because it is already high and you did mention some shell along the river are we gonna have to do a historical to find out if we have a mound in there somewhere. Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 54 of 59 . o 0 Hood: No ma'am. It's beach, white sand Carlson: Okay but you said it was high land Hood: Bluff Carlson: bluffs. mounds. Bluff bluff okay. Florida's not really known for Okay you're you're gonna have to check for shell The whole river is peppered with mounds. Okay Thomas: Has that been done Glenn? Has it been checked for Indian mounds? Storch: Uh I don't usually what happens. I'm sorry. Usually there is an archaeological data bank that shows where these things are and we checked those before hand and we haven't seen anything like that but we'll check again. Thomas: Yeah we need to check that out because there's a bunch that that are not on record that do exist. Storch: We don't have any problems with checking. Carlson: I think Daytona just found out they had some bones that weren't supposed to be there. Uh the other question I have is we have scrub jay in that area also so you'll be checking for that. Uh the other question is what's after this okay. You yet people once in a while that live there which to me if I'm building a building I want somebody there all the time to sell this thing however where are they gonna shop? Hood: Hopefully in Edgewater. Carlson: Well okay. Now these people are paying a lot of money for these high-end buildings right and they're going t go to the local Winn Dixie that's going bankrupt. Tobin: I know I go to Winn Dixie. Woman: Well they were at one time. Carlson: Yeah they're struggling. What I'm looking at is up and down that road are we gonna be building shops? So how much impact? You guys may not have a lot of impact. It's what comes after you. We're talking future land use. Take it easy. Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 55 of 59 ~ o o Thomas: Thank you. Any more citizens comments? Ralph Richardson, uh I've got twenty five hundred feet of border with these gentlemen so I think I have a little bit more involved then some people. I'm not diametrically opposed to the pro pro project. I'm a little disappointed when we look out forty or fifty years that I know we want to keep low growth but when we look at the population numbers the generation after us may wish we'd looked at a lot different development for an area and probably looked at shops and businesses. On the other side of that I've got industrial property. They're not two hundred and fifty feet away from industrial property. They're against industrial property. As I understand thirty-eight feet. I have a question how you do luxury condominiums against industrial property. A hundred feet of their property was industrial when they bought and assembled this. When I purchased my property buying it for aquacultural use at the time I got in between that. That was the only place basically that I could find on the east coast to do that. We have a lot of residential property on the river. We don't have property where we want to do business or aquaculture. So uhm I do have that concern. There is no sign of a burm or any fencing in their plans that I know of. I know on the north side when we was talking about Edgewater Harbor we were talking about putting the building about a hundred and fifty feet away. If this project was on the other side of their industrial property it would make a lot better sense for my piece of property. I do not know how many years or decades this property in between here where Boston Whaler as we've talked about will be industrially zoned property. Uh sometimes the highest and best use is not always the obvious. I also recognize that we like a residential development and I do agree with what has been shown here that the numbers make a lot of sense along along the riverfront, which is another reason why if you're really gonna do that I don't know if low density and I'm sorry but ten units per acre for a condo project is low density is the best way to do that forty thirty or forty years out of the road. Uh What we're doing is is taking a piece of river frontage. It's private now and certainly as private property owners we have that right. But even though you're preserving some trees it's not public-park. It's private- park. We know what trees do when a storm comes through. They can be gone in a couple of years. I've lost some just in the last couple of years. I'm sure you have too. Quite Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 56 of 59 .' o o .. frankly like I said I'd rather see higher density and have two hundred acres on the other side of Florida Shores in the wetlands preserved. A lot cheaper probably a lot better in the long run. My interest again as a private property owner is I would rather see a thirty-story tower sitting in the middle of their property. Talk about sunshine. I'm on the north side. The winter sun I'm gonna have the shading across where I want it aquaculture. Uhm when we talk about view that property will play into that. Future development as we are talking about for other buildings will come into the play of what kind of buildings can be built or should be built on that property. So there are a lot of issues that I think have to be looked at. Uhm like I said just real bluntly as a pri private property owner with twenty five hundred feet along there uhm I don't want a conflict. I know tha~ developers will flip. I'm a realtor I've got a realtors license and I want something in the contract that says I'm not gonna have an issue with whatever businesses. I'm County I'm zoned industrial that's waterfront industrial and whatever businesses or whatever the best use for that property is is what I want to continue to do which hopefully will continue to be some aquaculture. Uhm I just think we need to be considering a lot of factors there and I know you're anti-growth and you won't look a the long term and certainly they have the right to do what they want with that project but I also think as an individual to the north side we need to look at that too. Uhm there's a piece to the other side that's fourteen acres as Mr. Uhm Hooper has pointed out. You've ,got my piece is 5.7 acres. I've got a hundred foot wide piece. So I can't move off to the side of that to do a project. Uh the other piece is two hundred and fifty feet. You have to look at what these guys are gonna be able to do with their property. What I don't want to be is stuck in the middle of two big industrial you know condo projects and then have have a piece that's you're gonna tell me is too narrow to develop or have people who have purchased from them or resales from them who think they own that view quite frankly because that's what they're being sold that they've got this park like setting and yet thirty eight feet off their north side may be metal buildings, maybe fish tanks, maybe another building. Thank you Thomas: Thank you. Any more citizens comments? Do we have any comments from staff? Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 57 of 59 , \ i ., o o Hooper: The only thing I can tell you is we'll probably bring this to Planning and Zoning during the month of January. Uh it will be back to you guys at your second meeting in January maybe the first meeting in February. That's the timing that I think you're looking at. At this point there's not a formal submittal. Uh until the day the formal advertisement takes place. So I'm looking at late January early February if possible for the PUD agreement. Storch: Obviously one of the things that's important. We heard everything that was said tonight and we will provide that those answers to you as we are going through the process and we've also heard the neighbors comments as well and we'll try to address them. If we can speed this process along. It's November now, early November. We've got development agreements and plans set. If it's possible for us to get uh on earlier for Planning Board meetings that's certainly something we would we'd appreciate working with staff on because. Hooper: Glenn I think you're just the December meeting is the first one that you are gonna have an opportunity to Storch: though. That's fine. I thought you were saying January Hooper: I'm thinking it could be late as that. seen the agenda for that. I haven't Storch: If we can go into Hooper: We'll try for December if not it would be January Storch: That's all I ask if we could try I'd certainly appreciate but we're gonna answer all these questions we've talked about as we're going through the process and and one of the things I should mention and I know I know the Mayor has mentioned this I mean what this does is it does preserve a great deal of this property because the scrub jays that we've talked about if you do this under the current density with with the typical with typical development that is wiped out. If you do it in this manner with a conservation easement on this site eighty percent of that land is set aside and preserved forever and the conservation easement actually although your saying it's not public a conservation easement would actually be Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - November 142005 Workshop Page 58 of 59 ,,- , '" .. C) Q transferred to the City of Edgewater and they would own that conservation easement. So that's how I'd do it. Thomas: Remember we want that in writing. Storch: Absolutely and and recorded. Thomas: I appreciate everybody's time tonight. Do I hear a motion? Rhodes: So moved. Thomas: Thank you. The workshop adjourned at 7:50 p.m. Minutes submitted by: Lisa Bloomer Verbatim - River Oaks Condominium - Tobin property - No.vember 142005 Workshop Page 59 of 59