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06-08-1983 - Workshop - Q Q CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP JUNE 8, 1983 MINUTES This workshop was called for 7:00 P.M., concerning the Fire Department. Mayor Ledbetter called the meeting to order in the Community Center building. ROLL CALL Mayor David Ledbetter Present Councilwoman Gigi Bennington Present Councilman Neil Asting Arrived Late Councilman Jack Spencer Present City Attorney Josel Alvarez Excused City Clerk Nancy Blazi Excus~d Deputy City Clerk Susan Wadsworth Present Police Chief Earl Baugh Excused Jesse Walls, a member of the Fire Department, began the discussion concerning 'the training of the Fire Department members. The County is trying to, push them about officers having to have 300 hours and other members having to have 70 hours. They don't think most of them can afford this, and most of the older people have more training than what is afforded by the school classes. Mr. Walls asked the Council if they will stand behind them if the County pushes them on this issue. Mayor Ledbetter advised that they would address this situation when it is presented. He stated if the County makes this issue mandatory, the Council will have to decide whether or not to go along with it or divorce themselves from it. Councilman Spencer questioned whether or not we have County equipment that could possibly be put in jeopardy. Mayor Ledbetter advised yes, if it becomes a state law; however, he stated that the County agreement can be dissolved by notifying them within a given number of days that they wish to withdraw. Mr. Walls stated he wrote to the state Fire Marshall and there is no law on the books that volunteers are required to have this training, it is strictly up to the Fire Department. Mr. Walls questioned if they have to get out of the County, can there be an agreement or something worked up pertaining to the equipment so that they can keep same. A member of the Fire Department advised the Council that he had a meeting with the County on June 7, 1983, concerning this matter. He took a copy of the contract with him and they discussed budget negot- iations. He advised the Council that the Fire Department cannot purchase the ~quipment. Everything can be taken off, but they get the truck. They will send a copy of the agreement to Mayor Ledbetter and he will have 60 days to sign the contract. If the contract is not signed within 60 days, they will come and get the equipment. Councilman Spencer asked how much equipment is involved. The Fire Department member. advised they have a 420 pumper and a 2,000 gallon Mack tanker. The City holds the title to the Mack but the County owns it for five years. Gary Lamb, the member of the Fire Department speaking at this workshop, also advised that they are in the fifth year now and they will be done paying back the County by the 1984 fiscal budget. Councilman Spencer asked if the City handles the payment for the training. Jesse Walls advised that they had. He stated that it was quite a lot of time that had to be spent in taking 300 hour classes when all members are presently holding down other jobs. Gary Lamb advised it was three nights a week and all day Saturday. Jesse Walls stated the County wanted the officers to have 300 hours and each fireman, 70 hours. o o Councilman Spencer stated the City could not require the men to take these courses due to the fact they are so lengthy. He stated they could not advise the Fire Department one way or the other, at this point. Councilman Asting asked whether or not if some of the officers are trained, they can train others. Gary Lamb advised that they are not state certified. They are only certified as a firefighter, not as an instructor. You have to have a fire science degree, a 2 yeat program at DSCC, before you can teach. Councilman Spencer questioned whether or not this was a County Ordinance. Gary Lamb advised the County fire districts voted on it; the Chiefs of all County fire districts held a meeting and decided various requirements had to be met by the fire departments - all fire deparDments - volunteer and paid alike. Mayor Le~better advised that this matter would be going before the legislature in Tallahassee for determination. Jesse Walls then began discussion concerning the requirement in the by-laws that the firemen had to live in the City. He would like the Council to approve of allowing them to go into the County, if the need arises. A member of the fire department spoke up and stated that all they want to be allowed to do is help one of the members of the fire department, out of the City, if their individual home is on fire and they need assistance, that Edgewater Fire Department be allowed to go out in the County and help them. Jesse Walls stated they have a free hand now, a mutual aid. There is no problem now but it might become a problem. Councilman Asting asked what the mutual aid encompassed. Jesse Walls advised Turnbull, New Smyrna, anyone in Volusia County. Councilman Spencer asked that they approach Council if and when that transpires, that he understands what he is saying. Mayor Ledbetter advised that he understands the people Mr. Walls is talking about are within a half mile of the perimeter of the city limits, to which Mr. Walls agreed. Mayor Ledbetter said there would be no problems with that. Councilman Asting advised that he would approve of them going outside of the city limits to take care of any kind of fire. Mayor Ledbetter stated he would not want to penalize the people outside the limits of Edgewater if they were to withdraw from the mutual aid assistance, in light of the contrib- utions they make towards the City. However, he stated it would have to be put in writing for future protection in this area. Jesse Walls brought up the subject of fire calls, stating the police have been notified before the fire department and they are out before the fire department has been contacted. He feels the fire department should be notified and at the scene of the fire whether or not they are needed - that determination should be judged by the fire department and not the police department. Mayor Ledbetter stated he felt the police department should stick with their own business and the fire department likewise. He also stated the fire department should be called, whether the matter is minor or major, and they should go out and check on the situation, regardless. Councilman Asting suggested that the City Clerk send an administrative letter to the police department, advising them that all fire calls be directed to the fire department. The Mayor will sign the letter. Regarding the matter of the City paying for a man to attend the 300 hour classes, Jesse Walls stated that he felt that person should give the City at least two active years of firefighting and not leave and go to another city. Mayor Ledbetter agreed with Mr. Walls. Councilwoman Gigi Bennington questioned how they could enforce this, with a volunteer fire department. Mr. Walls suggested that he be required" to sign a contract to that effect. Mayor Ledbetter suggested that if he were to stay only a year, he would be required to reimburse the City part of the money that was spent on the training and studies. Councilman Spencer suggested that Council ask the City Attorney to draft up such a statement. Coun- cilman Asting stated that the same should be drafted for any other department that sends people to classes for training. -2- City Council Workshop Minutes June 8, 1983 Q Q In reference to building permits, et cetera, wherein the fire department must review and make recommendations, Mr. Walls advised that this takes up a lot of time and the recommendations are never abided by anyway. He doesn't feel they should be required to comply with these requests. Councilwoman Bennington asked if he were referring to the site plans. He advised that he was. Mayor Ledbetter agreed with Mr. Walls. statement. Mr. Walls advised that the project FEC is working on, concerning the fire department's involvement, on the west end of this property there is no possible chance of the fire department getting out if fire gets between them and the entrance. Mayor Ledbetter advised that the Council was not informed of the department head meeting concerning this matter a few weeks ago. A member of the fire department stated that when these site plans come in, they are only given a few days to review the project and give a report back to the department. He feels they should be given a week or longer in order to check the situation out, in that they all have jobs and not enough time to research these requests. Councilman Asting asked if there was a person or persons who was designated to answer these requests. A member of the fire department advised that the Fire Chief was the one who reviewed these plans, or his designated representative. Councilwoman Bennington advised that when the site plans come in, they have at least a week, possibly two, before they go before the Planning Commission and this would be an administrative matter. John Reilly, Fire Chief, advised that he was the one who had to come to City Hall and pick up the site plans, sometimes he has only a day or even less, to come in and review them. He stated that he works and is not always available to comply with these requests. He asked that something be done to allow them two weeks time for answering the site plan proposals. Mayor Ledbetter said that was not an unreasonable request. Councilman Spencer asked what the minimum time would be needed to answer the site plan requests. Mr. Reilly advised that five days would be sufficient. A member of the fire department stated that all they can do is make recommendations. The only way that the fire department can be sure that their recommendations are abided by is to have a state,~certified fire inspector to follow through - it is up to the building or planning department to see that they are done now. Mr. Walls advised that on the FEC plans they contradict themselves on the plans that were submitted. Councilman Spencer requested that the fire department inform the Council if their recommendations on these site plans are not followed through. He stated that he knew the Council wanted things to be done correctly. Mr. Walls advised that some of the areas that have been built do not allow sufficient space for the fire department to get in and out of. He stated there should be an egress in and out when building is completed. Jack Bevel, a member of the fire department, suggested that the mini warehouses be looked at, in that some of them were long buildings which could create problems concerning the fire department. Mayor Ledbetter advised that businesses were being operated out of these mini warehouses and they were not built for that purpose. Jesse Walls stated that people were also living in some of them. Mayor Ledbetter advised Mr. Walls to furnish the names and addresses of people living in them to City Hall and he would take care of that matter. Mayor Ledbetter advised that every member of the Council is aware that the mini warehouse concept in Edgewater is greatly abused. Mr. Walls stated he would like the authority to put up a "closed" sign on these mini warehouses when a situation such as this arises. Mr. Reilly stated they could not do that because they are volunteers - not state certified. He advised that as a fire department group they have agreed to ask the Council to hire a state certified fire inspector. Because of the growth of the City of Edgewater, a certified fire inspector is needed to enforce the fire safety requirements needed concerning new building structures. -3- City Council Workshop Minutes June 9, 1983 o o Mr. Reilly stated a certified fire inspector could stop a building from going up if the requirements were not met. He would have authority to do that. Mayor Ledbetter said that the new building inspector has the right to handle these type situations. Councilman Spencer suggested that at the workshop with the building inspector scheduled for next week, that a member of the fire department be asked to attend to discuss their position regarding the new develop- ments with him. He stated he felt hiring a state certified fip.e inspector was a pretty big step at this time. Councilwoman Bennington asked what salary would be required to hire such a person. Gary Lamb advised it would be approximately $15,000 a year, however, one could be hired on a part-time basis. Councilman Spencer stated that possibly one could be hired part-time to check on the situations that presently exist in the City where potential hazards are prevalent at this time, namely, in the mini warehouses. Gary Lamb asked the Council who they could notify to shut down the people who are operating these mini warehouses as businesses where they are not in compliance with the fire codes of the City. Susan Wadsworth advised they could notify anyone in City Hall and the building inspector or the police chief would go and investigate it. Gary Lamb said that the police chief would not be allowed to do anything about it. He stated a certified fire inspector could take care of it. Councilwoman Bennington asked if a fire inspector was allowed to go in anyplace at anytime and inspect. She was advised only in a place of business. Gary Lamb advised that once they have their occupancy license stating that they can be there, there is nothing that can be done until it changes hands. Councilwoman Bennington asked if they could go in a mini warehouse that was operating a paint and body shop business and inspect it. A member of the fire department advised that they would have to telephone them first, stating they wanted to do an inspection and schedule a time to do so. Mayor Ledbetter suggested the fire department make a list of the complaints they have regarding the mini warehouses and give it to Council and they will see what they can do. Jack Bevel suggested they ask the City Attorney who has the authority to do what, and what is the correct way of solving some of these problems - through whose authority. Mayor Ledbetter agreed with hi~ suggestion. Jesse Walls brought up the subject of the number 2 fire station and the land behind it. He asked if the fire department could lease that land and build a community center or something - what kind of lease could they get. Mayor Ledbetter advised that that would have to go to the City Attorney. A member of the fire department advised that they wanted a lease with the City concerning building a bigger and better community center, like the one the City has with the school board on the ball field. Mayor Ledbetter stated he understood his position on this matter. Councilman Spencer suggested that some consideration be given to what other uses the City may need that land for~ referring to the land outside the City. Mayor Ledbetter stated a plan should be drawn up of the amount of land, including the lake to the north by the number two firehouse, so you will know how much acreage you have, what the sewer plant covers now, and what might be needed in the future to cover expansion of the sewer plant. A member of the fire department advised that there is a print in City Hall of the land in question which should show the lay of the land and how much is involved. Mr. Walls advised Council that he was tired of the police department using the fire trucks, especially the old army trucks, taking them out in the weeds and bushes and bringing them back and not cleaning them up. Mayor Ledbetter stated it was his understanding that the County advised the police department several years ago that they would take care of the County and our police department was to take care of Edgewater. He also said there are two clowns over there, taking the vehicles and running the back woods~ looking for marijuana plants. -4- City Council Workshop Minutes June 8, 1983 o u Councilman Asting asked whether or not they take the vehicles without first asking the fire department for permission. He was advised they were not supposed to. A member of the fire department stated that he allowed a police officer to use one of the vehicles to go somewhere in the City to check, he felt they should help each other out and he saw no reason why he should not be allowed to use the vehicle. Another member of the fire department stated they have a blue pick-up truck that can be used by the rescue department, if they have any break downs, and they don't have to have permission to use it. All they have to do is call dispatch and advise them that they are using the truck. Gary Lamb asked Council how much money is available to put toward a new fire truck at this time. He stated that so much money was to have been set aside for that purpose last year. Councilman Spencer and Councilman Asting stated it was not budgeted last year. A member of the fire department stated it came before the Council, they requested Council to set up an escrow account. Councilman Spencer said they will be addressing the budget in the next few weeks and it will be brought up at that time. Gary Lamb stated that is why they suggested the part-time fire inspector be considered now, so that it could be brought up when the budget is discussed. Gary Lamb advised that from what he has learned, that this time next year when the new budget comes up, the County fire districts, as they are now, will no longer be. They will be one district - one County. Just as Orange County is - all under one fire district. He said that they will lose about $49,000 a year. A member of the fire department asked what would happen to the new pumper they just purchased six months ago if this does go through. Mr. Lamb advised that they would lose it. He stated he asked the County and they advised that the City cannot purchase the vehicles that they bought with County funds - they belong to the people in the district that they have been supplying. He stated he told the County that they have been supplying this service for a fee, what do they get back out of it. He was told, nothing, they got the use of the vehicles while the service was being supplied. He advised they have one class A pumper if the County takes the vehicles away from them. They have all the equipment, all they will need is the pumper. Councilman Spencer asked if the $49,000 was paid annually and for what purpose was the money used. Gary Lamb stated it was paid annually and the money was used for equipment; $42,000 is paid for the trucks that they already have. Jack Bevel advised that they have a certain amount of property that has an assessed value - 1.28 millage rate. You multiply 1.28 times the land assessed value and you come up with how much monies will come in this year for that taxed district. He said it should not be over $33,000 to $34,000, but there will be a carryover of monies to put it up to that $42,000. Gary Lamb advised there is a carryover of $8,700; $1500 will go to administrative fees. Jack Bevel advised that they negotiated with the County, for going into the County fighting fires, up front money of $180,000 to buy equipment with. They had non interest loans from the insurance fund of the County for $73,000 - $15,000 of it went into fire station number two, and once its in there they cannot recover it. Then they bought the big Mack 2,000 gallon tanker for $60,000+, which is paid for but it belongs to the fire district, not the City of Edgewater. The new pumper they just bought for $73,135 - the income from that district will retire that loan from the insurance fund. Some of the money is used for maintenance for the trucks. It is all paper work. They have to account for the money that is used. They are asking for more money for maintenance due to the rise in gasoline and the other necessary expenditures that have raised. If the contract is terminated by either side, the County will take the equipment back. If they go to the County-wide fire district, they will take back their equipment, the trucks. Councilman Asting asked if the County does take back the equipment, what will be needed to maintain protection for the City. Mr. Bevel said the first thing would be a class A pumper. They now have a 414 but it only has a 500 gallon capacity. -5- City Council Workshop Minutes June 8, 1983 o o Jack Bevel advised they could take the army vehicles and use them as tankers. Councilwoman Bennington asked how much water it takes to put out a house fire. Mr. Bevel stated that 2~" lines, you're talking 2~ minutes and you're out of water - 500 gallons of water. A member of the fire department gave an example of the trailer that caught fire a month ago where their 414 pumper got to the fire first, then he came along with 15, which belongs to the County and is 2,000 gallons of water. There was a minute difference between the time he left and the 414 left and when he got there, the 414 was out of water. Councilwoman Bennington asked what was used to fight a chemical fire where water wasn't used. She was advised that they use foam and dry chemicals. There are 30 gallons of foam on each truck. A member of the fire department stated that they wer.e at the mercy of the County at this time. He felt they do not need to buy another class A pumper at this time, however, if the County takes the truck he feels they should be in a position to have a fund somewhere to go to get the money necessary to purchase one, if the need arises. Jesse Walls advised that they have outgrown their 418 truck that was purchased several years ago. He advised it was of very little use to them and they would like to purchase a larger one. There are several departments that want the one they have. He asked if the Council would consider selling it and purchasing a new one. This is the four wheel drive Dodge on Mango Tree - 250 gallon tank. Jack Bevel stated they were offered $12,000+ for it by a guy who wants it very bad. They want to use it for a rescue truck. However, he stated an escrow account should be set up if they do sell the truck because he felt the monies received would go into the general fund and they would not have it to purchase another truck. Councilman Spencer asked what the mini pumper was that they wanted to purchase. Gary Lamb stated it was a 500 gallon tank and he has all the information and pictures on it. He stated it cost $28,000 this year and $34,000 next year. Mayor Ledbetter advised that he would let the fire department decide whether,or not they do in fact want to sell the 418 truck and for them to let the Council know of their decision and they will discuss it at that time. A member of the fire department stated that it was in the budget for them to receive $4,500 for the purchase of fireworks. Councilwoman Bennington stated they just gave them $2,000 from the budget and she asked what the cost would be for the fireworks. She was advised some- where around $3,600 to $4,000. The fire department member stated there was a line item for fireworks in their budget for $2,500. Jack Bevel stated that in negotiating the budget for next year, it was his understanding that the Council would give them a package from the City to work from, offering information as to the expenditures they were working with. He suggested if one expenditure was going to increase, thereby resulting from an increase in two other items, it should be accounted for in the negotiations. Mr. Armstrong, a member of the audienGe, stated that he has been concerned about some of the apparatuses that have been installed by developers in multi-family dwellings. He gave for example, unit #1 in Village Green. If this unit were to catch on fire, the firemen would be in jeopardy attaching the hose due to the fact the hyd~ant is only 20 feet from the building. The next hydrant is 400' from there. He was questionin.g why the plan was approved to install the hydrant only 20' from a building with six units, and it~ all framed. He stated he had been quite concerned about this for some time and hoped the Council would take some action to prevent plans such as this being approved by the different Boards that they go before. A member of the Fire Department advised Mr. Armstrong that they are trying to do all they can to prevent this from happening. -6- City Council Workshop Minutes June 8, 1983 y o o . . Mr. Armstrong also mentioned the mini warehouses that a~e being built for one purpose and businesses and other uses are being operated in these buildings, whereby they are not designed for safety requirements to prevent fire hazards. Jack Bevel advised that at station one, along the highway, it looks terrible. He stated it belongs to the State, however, the Fire Depart- ment pa~ someone to cut the grass but you cannot cut the highway property. He asked if there was any way they could have the City put that property on a schedule and cut it and clean it up once in a while. A member of the Fire Department stated that when the budget is worked up, money is put in the budget to have the grass cut at both fire stations. Jack Bevel stated some of it is just weeds. Councilwoman Gigi Bennington stated she felt the City Public Works Department should be responsible for this matter, or the Parks and Recreation Department. Mayor Ledbetter said that Mr.Copeland did mow down behind the number 2 fire station. Mr. Bevel said that he would like to see some schedule set up where it is taken care of at least once a month. Mayor Ledbetter stated to make a note to discuss the matter with Mr. Copeland, and also the big field across the road. A member of the Fire Dep~rtment stated that they have a yearly contract with people to do this work at a cost of $50 a month. During the summer they mow at least once a week, in the cooler months it is less often; however, this rate is averaged throughout the year. He didn't feel it was right to have the City start doing it and take away this contract that they have now. Mr. Bevel stated it was the weeds and field he was talking about, not the grass areas. Mr. Bevel told Council he appreciated them taking the time to listen to them and consider their requests. Councilwoman Gigi Bennington thanked them for bringing these matters to their attention. Mayor Ledbetter stated this was the first time in the 7~ years he has been with the City that the Fire Department has sat down and had such a discussion, and he feels the meeting will be productive and action will be taken on their requests. Councilman Neil Asting moved to adjourn the meeting, Councilman Jack Spencer seconded. Meeting adjourned at 9:20 P.M. Minutes submitted by: Susan Mista -7- City Council Workshop Minutes June 8, 1983