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05-05-1983 - Special ~ ~ ~ u u CITY COUNCI~ SPECIAL MEETING May 5, 1983 MINUTES This me~ting was called for 1:30 P.M., concerning alleviation of the Wildwood drain problem. Mayor Ledbetter called the meeting to order in the Community Center building. ROLL CALL Mayor David Ledbetter Councilwoman Gigi Bennington Councilman Neil Asting Councilman Jack Spencer City Attorney Jose Alvarez City Clerk Nancy Blazi Police Chief Earl Baugh Present Present Present Present Present Present Present Also present were Bill Cross from Briley, Wild, Earl Copeland, Super- intendent of Streets and visitors in the audience. Councilman Neil Asting advised the Board that he would like to discuss the meeting he had on May 4th, 1983, with Mr. Alvarez, County Director of Public Works, County Engineer and a representative from the County Attorney's Office. The question posed was is it legal for one property owner to drain his land onto the property of another property owner. The answer was yes and no from the County. If the natural drainage of one property owners property drains on another property owners land, the answer would be yes. If, however, one property owner inter~ered with the natural drainage, by construction of digging of water passages from his property to that of another property owner's land, then this would be illegal. On April 5th, the County sent a letter to Mr. Massey, questioning his construction of drainage ditches, asking him to fill out an application for permission to do such work. Councilman Asting then passed out copies of said letters to the Board members and the visitors in the audience. Mr. Massey replied to the letter verbally, stating he was not digging new ditches, but merely cleaning out existing ditches. He has not replied by writing as a written reply to the letter. If Mr. Massey's verbal statement to the County is incorrect, Councilman Asting suggested the Wildwood residents involved, prepare affidavits concerning this matter for forwarding to the County Attorney and the County Public Works Director, stating the facts of this matter. It would mean the word of the Wildwood residents against Mr. Massey as to whether or not a new ditch had been dug leading into the ditch running along the west side of the Wildwood Subdivision. Councilman Asting stated that they brought up the fact that that water did drain from the Wildwood Subdivision from the Massey property, natur- ally, and they presented him with a topographic map showing drainage into the ditch that encompasses this on the west side. Any ditches dug there by Mr. Massey recently would be wrong. Harry Ryan of 516 Wildwood Drive stated he was one of the retired supervisors of Wildwood. He advised the Board that the ditches recently dug on the Massey property have definitely been dug to break into the canal so the water could go into it. The water on the south end of ~ Wildwood, which is natural water, lays there all the time. One builder built the property up so the natural water will run down on the land , that lays adjoining the south end of Wildwood. The water laying in the pond on the south side never broke into the canal until they dug a little break. Therefore, two drains that come across the road into the canal are completely blocked because the sand has washed from their ditch and is higher, thus blocking their canal so the water cannot even run out of the ditch. On the east side of Wildwood Frank Hall closed the canal over 500' long, filling the ditch in, causing two more drains to be be filled due to the canal being closed. Councilman Asting asked Mr. Ryan if new ditches were constructed or if the ditches actually existed. Mr. Ryan answered that every ditch was dug after the canal was there. ~ o (J Councilman Asting advised that if he did, in fact, dig ditches, that information should be included in the affidavits he previously mentioned. Councilman Asting explained to Mr. Ryan exactly what an affidavit is. Mr. Christy, a resident of the city, advised the Board that he doesn't remember seeing other ditches in Wildwood. He advisffi a plot plan would indicate all the canals dug and put in there. but he doesn't recall any at the time being in that area. The County, on the storm water management, were going to set their own rules, and they passed an ordin- ance on that. It was agreed there would be no run off from one to the other. Plus, there is another ordinance on the book that you cannot lead your property over into another person's property. Mr. Alvarez advised that concerning a ditch crossing the city boundary, for the purposes of whether or not there is a violation of the County's storm water management ordinance, it makes no difference. Councilman Asting stated that another aspect of the problem is that the drainage ditch that is behind the property calls for a 15' easement. The question of whether that ditch can be filled in or not, he does not know. Possibly it could be filled in or sandbagged. Mr. Alvarez stated that the basic question is whether it is public right- of-way or private. Bill Cross advised it is private property. It can only be used for drainage purposes, however, the city has the 'right to dress it up, if th~y desire. Councilman Asting stated he understood the cost of the pipe to be prohibitive. Mr. Copeland advised that the cost of the pipe would be cheaper than sandbagging. This is based on a 30" concrete pipe. A man from the audience advised that a 40" concrete pipe costs $80 per foot. Mr. Copeland gave prices he received from the County as follows: 30" diameter - 8' long is $17.07/ft.; 36" - $23.83; 48" - $40.88. Councilman Asting asked if it would take 600' to pipe the ditch. Mr. Cross advised that it would be 600' past a certain number of lots - not to the end of the street. Councilman Asting stated that from the drainage entering the ditch on the south end is 1400'. Mr. Cross advised that the price Mr. Copeland quoted is just the price delivered to the site, it would be that cost again to install it. Councilman Asting stated a 30" pipe would be approximately $34 a foot. Mr. Copeland advised that Mr. Hardaway of the County informed him that the cost of installation is about the same price as the pipe. He doesn't think this includes any backfill. It doesn't include covering the pipe. You have to level the ditch, barricaded or water pumped out before the pipe could be put in, and a catch basin would have to be installed. Councilman Spencer asked how that would alleviate the drainage problem. Councilman Asting advised it would stop erosion of the back yards. Councilwoman Bennington asked how you would clean it out. Mr. Copeland advised you would have ~o have catch basins. Bill Cross advised those would cost $900 to $1,000 each time you put one in. Mayor Ledbetter asked if you pipe the ditch, it won't alleviate the water coming from the west side. Bill Cross advised it could if you put manho~lesthere. He stated someone has to prove how much water is coming in, to see if there is a real problem before putting in pipe. You wouldn't be gaining anything for Wildwood, only helping the erosion and ditch problem. Councilman Asting advised the water problem could be alleviated if the affidavits are presented to the Council. It would be up to the judge to decide. Bill Cross asked if the Masseys gave Grank Hall who gave the city a 15' easement on their property to maintain this ditch. Councilman Asting added, providing the Massey water could drain into that ditch. A member of the audience stated that it doesn't say that in the easement. Mr. Copeland advised that Frank Hall told him it is in writing. Mayor Led- better advised that Masseys granted Frank Hall the easement. Frank Hall gave a copy of said easement to the city. Bill Cross advised that if you do not pipe this ditch, you need that easement to maintain the existing ditch. If there was an agreement -2- City Council Special-Meeting Minutes - May 5, 1983 o o between Massey and Hall that he could drain his water into there, you need to determine that he really has caused a problem. If you don1t pipe it and Massey pulls his easement back, you have no way at all to clean out the ditch. He added he felt you could clean that ditch out for a long time cheaper than you could put the pipe in. Councilwoman Bennington stated that she figured that if it was decided to pipe this property, which is private property, with 3011 pipe it will be a minimum of $100,000 to fill that in. How can that much money be justified for private property. Mrs. Cichewicz, a resident of Wildwood, asked how the city can justify what it did to the construction area. Concerning the letter, it states any future ditches being dug; what about the ditches dug before this. What about the past ditches that were dug? Councilman Asting advised that if he violated the storm water management order, he could be made to stop draining the water into the ditch. Mrs. Cichewicz stated that most of the council members were out there and they saw the water draining into the ditch. Councilman Asting advised her that all he was doing was cleaning out existing ditches. Mrs. Cichewicz said that was not true. Councilman Asting again advised that affidavits were needed, including pictures, etc., showing that no ditches existed until he dug them. Mayor Ledbetter added that at that meeting out at Wildwood, you could tell that that was fresh dug material from the indications of it dry i n g 0 nth e ban k. Mr s. C i c hew i c z s tat e d t hat m 0 red i t c h e s h a ve bee n dug since the time of the meeting there. They went north quite a distance, then east, then back to the south end, and then to our ditch. Mr. Cichewiaadvised the Board that when they first sta~ted they dug a 50. ditch, then when no one said anything about that, they took it back a little further and now it is 1,000' away. Councilman Asting advised that the topo map shows a chain of retention ponds to the point where Wildwood is and if they have connected these ponds, they are certainly draining a lot more water than should be there~ He believes they are connecting the grass ponds and draining them into the Wildwood ditch. Mayor Ledbetter advised that there is a little low pocket out by Air Park Road that comes through there, cutting across the south end of the airport into where those grass ponds start. He has seen that flooded all the way back to the Florida Power and Light plant out to 442. The flow of water was to the east or southeast across to the end of the airstrip, back to the grass ponds. Councilman Asting advised that the topo map shows the landing strip running into the grass ponds. Councilman Asting stated that there has been no written reply to the letter sent to Mr. Massey, only a verbal reply by telephone. There is not much the council can do because the property is in the County, not the city. Mayor Ledbetter stated that a copy of the easement should be included in the packet with the affidavits that will go to the City Attorney. Mr. Christy advised that there is no tie in on the back side. The easement is down the east side and west side of the subdivision. On the side of it. Mayor Ledbetter stated the affidavits should show that Mr. Hall filled a great portion of the ditch on the east side, blocking a couple of the cross-artery drainages. If the water is dammed up on the end of the existing culverts, it will cause problems on the south side. Councilman Asting stated Frank Hall should be made to open the ditch back up again. City Clerk Nancy Blazi advised that upon inspection of the property in question, she found that there is property to be developed on the east side that is under water and there is no ditch on that side to take care of that water. Councilman Asting advised the Board that a Sherlock.Homes has batter boards for a house over a drain line. Clerk Nancy Blazi advised he was not going to be doing that, according to the building official. - 3- City Council Special Meeting Minutes - May 5, 1983 o o Mr. Ryan questioned the Board concerning the affidavits and going the route they have suggested, how will they clean the canal if Mr. Massey gets angry over this move and tells them to get off his property and stay off? Mayor Ledbetter stated that one of these days the Massey property will be asked to be annexed into Edgewater. Councilman Spencer asked if sandbagging would be more expensive than piping? Mr. Copeland advised that he thought it would be. If you were to sandbag the property in Wildwood they would lose at least 2' of that yard. It will take a lot of labor, time and effort to get it just right. Another thing is you will have to clean the ditch out first. If you ever get a massive flow of water in that ditch your bags could sink and slide down the ditch. Councilman Spencer asked Mr. Cross if he had determined whether a back water curb could be made concerning the pipes being run under the FEC railroad. Mr. Cross advised he had not done that yet, he had not gotten the survey information from the County yet, but he will do it to show that it probably will not work. M~ Cichewj~ advised that near the pipe running under the house Mr. Copeland spoke about, there is a beautiful sandbagging job there, running straight up and down with no problems. He feels it could all be done that way. Councilman Asting stated that possibly prison labor could be used to help with the ditch. Councilwoman Bennington advised that to sandbag 1,200 square feet - lineal feet - on both sides, for material only is approximately $50,000. Mr. Copeland advised that was for shell, cement and sandbag. Mr. Wargo advised that the property on the north side of Park Avenue belongs to Mrs. Massey. Councilman Asting stated that if we have an easement we can get in there and clean it out. Mr. Wargo advised he did not think there was an easement. Mr. Cichewicz advised that the root of all the evil over there is the water going into the canal. If you could stop that water from going into that canal, you would solve 50% of all the problems. Mayor Ledbetter stated that they had no instant cure to the problem but they were trying to find a solution to everyone cnncerned. Mr. Cichewicz suggested that the matter be turned over to City Attorney Alvarez to determine whether or not it is legal for that water to go in there. Mayor Ledbetter suggested to the council that the matter be turned over to City Attorney Alvarez to research the legal part of it first. Councilman Asting suggested that it needs to Mr. Massey did or did not dig ditches there. Mr. Massey did dig new ditches, he feels the on the problem. Councilwoman Bennington stated that there are catch basins setting down below that need to be corrected. Mr. Copeland reported that he had a crew out there digging them out and hauling out the dirt. He stated he walked the ditch all the way around, where the main ditch runs into the canal, the sand is blocked up the the table top. The water is flowing and just waiting to get in. The ditch needs to be cleaned out there from Park Avenue all the way back, it is a solid sand bar - water cannot run. The ditch will run from 5' deep to 7' deep. There is 4" to play with and if there is 6" of sand or dirt, the water cannot run. To the best of his knowledge, the ditch has never been cleaned. He does not know if the equipment he has will do it as it is very deep. It won't alleviate all the problems, but it will help. Mosquito Control has cleaned the first 180' but it has never been cleaned the rest of the way that he knows of. His men have cleaned the main artery pipes - 11 of them. The water cannot get out if the ditch is not clean. In order to clean the ditch it has to be mowed first, on the west side. be proven whether or not If it can be proven that County will have to act -4- City Council Special t~eeting Minutes - May 5, 1983 o o Mayor Ledbetter advised Mr. Copeland to contact Mrs. Massey and advise her what you need to do to clean the ditch. The council will back you up. Mr. Christy stated that when the ditch on the east side was first put in there wasnlt an agreement made to keep it clean. It has always been a big problem. He believes it was agreed that Mosquito Control was to take care of all that. Mr. Copeland stated there have been a lot of changes in the last thnee years. This 1801 feet that they recently cleaned, this is as far as they will go. They don't want any part of the rest of the ditch. He does not know what the legal aspects of it is. Councilman Spencer stated that in addition to cleaning the ditches, some people are having problems with the swales on the side of the road and the driveways not being the right elevation. He feels the city should help grade the side of the road, if it can be done. Mr. Copeland advised that he did not have the proper equipment to fix the asphalt driveways. Mr. Ryan stated that credit needs to be given to Mr. Wargo and the city in that they fixed the interior of Wildwood. The city made the builders put the culverts in the proper way. He suggested that the builders be made to stop putting debris in the swales, make the builders clean up their messes - get tougher with the builders. Mr. Copeland agreed that he could rent a roller to correct the problems regarding the swales. Mr. Christy asked if the city could recoup the money spent on Wildwood when the builders and contractors caused some of the problems. He feels they should be made to pay the city back for straightening up the messes. Mayor Ledbetter asked that that question be directed to the City Attorney. City Attorney Alvarez asked how much money is in question. Mr. Christy stated it was thousands of dollars due to mounding up dirt which caused flooding problems. Mr. Copeland stated it was also going on in Florida Shores, the same problems. Councilman Asting advised that at the last meeting he asked Mr. Cross to bring a manual concerning what can be done to the builders, which he showed to the council. He suggested that someone study the manual, an engineer, and put it i~to an ordinance. Councilman Spencer stated that primarily, during construction, the builder be required to put in buffers or whatever so that all the silt doesnlt come down into the drain pipes. Mr. Cichewiczasked Mr. Cross if the city agreed to put in a partial line of pipe, say 300., which will drain almost all of the back area, catching all the backyard sewers, do you think that would help? Mr. Cross answered that it would definitely stop the water from the Massey property coming in. But if you put 3001 of pipe in there to stop that water, as I understand it, Mrs. Massey could pull that easement and you would have no way of cleaning out that other 9001 of ditch. Mr. Cichewia stated that that 350. pipe would solve a lot of the problems the re. Mayor Ledbetter asked the council for their pleasure regarding this situation. He stated Councilman Astingls recommendation is to get affidavits from the people affected concerning the dumping of the water into the ditch and asked the people for affidavits and pictures that the water has been dumped into the ditch that is on private property. Oouncilman Asting corrected the Mayor in saying his was a possible solution - not a recommendation. Councilman Spencer made a motion that the council accept Oouncilman Asting's report. Councilwoman Bennington seconded the motion. Motion CARRIED 4-0. -5- City Council Special Meeting. ~~nutes - May 5, 1983 o o Councilman Asting suggested that it would be good if the residents of Wildwood reported anyone throwing trash into the canal. Mr. Copeland asked the council about cleaning the ditch on the east side. up to the fill in. Mayor Ledbetter advised that it should be cleaned, also. Mr. Copeland asked about the area in Park Avenue that runs from one side of Wildwood to the other side. There is very little room there but it needs cleaning real bad. Mayor Ledbetter suggested that you have a laborer, give him a red flag and let him stop the traffic, blocking one lane. You can clean the ditch as far as the council goes - there are no objections. Councilman Spencer stated that Mr. Copeland is asked to provide grading or fill or whatever is needed to help people where their swales are not right. Mayor Ledbetter stated that would be a departmental matter. Mr. Christy asked if the motion made by Councilman Spencer included the city getting the affidavits from the people. Councilman Asting stated it was up to the people to provide the affidavits. Councilwoman Bennington made a motion to adjourn the meeting. Motion was seconded by Councilman Asting. Meeting adjourned at 2:45 P.M. Minutes submitted by: CL-:Q)tJjJa~~. . ~A\'U1R . ~ c Susan Mista ATTEST { ?/ ~ ((~h <'" :/ ~day 0 f , 1983. -6- City Council Special Meeting Minutes - May 5, 1983