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05-03-1983 - Workshop ~ Q o ~ CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP MAY 3, 1983 MINUTES This workshop was called for 10:30 A.M., to review drainage in the Wildwood area. Mayor Ledbetter called the meeting to order in the Community Center building. ROLL CALL Mayor David Ledbetter Councilwoman Gigi Bennington Councilman Neil Asting Councilman Jack Spencer City Attorney Jose' Alvarez City Clerk Nancy Blazi Police Chief Earl Baugh Present Present Present Arrived Late Excused Present Present Also present were Councilman Mann, Mr. Cross from Briley, Wild Engin- eers, Earl Copeland, Public Works Superintendent, a representative from mosquito control, and Mr. Tom McClelland, County Public Works Director. Mayor David Ledbetter stated that this meeting was a continuation of the meeting that was held by General Mann, Mr. McClelland, Mr. Copeland, and a representative from mosquito control on drainage and what we could do to alleviate the problem in Wildwood. Mr. McClelland stated that the situation existing in the Wildwood Sub- division area is that it is sort of lying in the bottom of a saucer. The canal that surrounds the property is within the city limits. The canal is supposed to drain through pipes that are controlled by the county, to run underneath the park and join up with the canal that runs eastward, and then passes where the railroad bends to the north. There are five pipes that go underneath the railroad track. One of those pipes carried water at all times. The other four only move water when there is a flood stage. They were designed that way. After checking with the railroad, there is no problem with resetting those pipes, provided all of the involved parties pay the expenses for same. The cost for putting in the correct size pipes and resetting them is ~pprox- imately $30,000 plus, if the changes are made while the canal is filled with water, as it is now, it must be copper dammed, which is sealing it off, pumping it dry, and resetting those pipes, an additional cost of approximately as high as $20,000 could be added. He added that not all the cost would be lost in that the sheet piling needed to put it in is reuseable and reclaimable. Mr. McClelland also advised that they are doing some work to the west of Wildwood in cleaning it at the present time. Due to the fact that there are some complaints concerning this matter, Mr. McClelland explained that they first did not do this properly. They cannot haul wet material across state and federal roads. The material has to be brought out to the side of the road, allow it to dry, and then move it to the land fill. It was piled poorly and thus impeded traffic. He will be cleaning up the area within the next couple of days. He will also, along the Edgewater Canal Road that runs north and south off of Park, be replacing two culverts that have a driveway going into private property because it . acts as a dam effect when there is high water. They may go in with one large single pipe or bridge it, whichever way will be best economically. Also, where Edgewater Canal Road turns north of Park and runs east and west, there are two p~pes there that will be replaced, which will drain the Mission Road area better and move the water faster. Mr. McClelland stated that this canal does not pick up Wildwood. Wild- wood is not well drained and there is no cost feasible way of insuring that Wildwood is going to be dry. The canal that surrounds Wildwood was designed by the developer to accommodate their stormwater management ordinance. This ordinance says that the developer must retain all of the water that originally fell on that piece of ground and cannot put anymore water out on anybody else. o o As an example of the costs that m~y possibly be involved in this project, Mr. McClelland gave an example of Riviera Oaks where they just spent over a year and a half and over $100,000 alleviating their problem, which is similar to Wildwood. They were fortunate in this Riviera Oaks area in that they did provide some relief for their water problems, which caused water retention so deep that only four wheel drive vehicles that were set very high could navigate the road. Mr. McClelland advised that the only way to assure that no flooding would occur in an area such as Wildwood, would be to install a collection and pumping system and then you need a place to pump it to, requiring structures to carry the water to its ultimate destination. Mr. McClelland advised that the National Weather Service reports that we are now 11.373 inches over and above the average annual rain fall and the water tables are higher in the county now than they have been for over 20 years. He stated there were going to be a lot of problems in the county when the rainy season begins. Mr. McClelland stated that the subdivision of Wildwood lies within the city limits of Edgewater and not the county, and therefore, it is not within his jurisdiction. The canal also lies within the city of Edge- water. The money that it would take to correct the situation in Wildwood is not in the county budget at this time, or the city budget. The county.s position is that they are not harmed. They are willing to consider some cost-sharing venture, if it could be worked out. He also advised that the proposed corrections could possibly reduce the problem but it will not eliminate the problem. Mr. Bill Cross of Briley, Wild Engineers asked whether anyone was going to backwater curb on that point, when the elevations were run. Mr. McClelland advised no. Mr. Cross suggested that someone run a backwater curb, wherein you take the highest elevation at the railroad crossing and then you take all the water that is to be dumped in the canal back to Wildwood, and back that up until you get what the elevation of the water could get in Wildwood if you lowered these pipes. He stated he felt lowering these pipes would not be that much benefit to the citizens of Wildwood and, in fact, cleaning these pipes might be a better and more economically feasible method of dealing with the situation. Mr. McClelland agreed with Mr. Cross' suggestion. Councilman Neil Asting asked about the situation in Wildwood concerning county property draining into the city ditch. Mr. McClelland advised that that was private property located within the county, not county property. Councilman Asting asked who controls the drainage of that property. Mr. McClelland advised that the only thing they could do was to issue the property owner a permit to do something on his property. Councilman Asting advised that there is a problem where the owner of the property has dug ditches, draining into the ditch which is in the city limits. Mr. McClelland stated that he has spoken to the city attorney and if the city can show that that has done harm to the city or any part of the city, it becomes a matter between the city and the property owner, not the county. Or if a property owner can show that he has been damaged, he can bring a private suit against the city. However, the county is not involved because no county structure has been affected by what he has done. Councilman Asting asked if there would be any problems if the people who own the property and the ditch were to have pipes installed themselves, covering it over with soil. Mr. McClelland answered that he would have to contact the city, however, the most cost effective means would be that open ditch. Councilman Asting also advised that as the water passes through the ditch it is causing erosion. Mr. Earl Copeland advised that 30" pipe would be needed to install in that ditch. Mr. McClelland suggested alternatives to correct this problem - one being sandbagging. -2- City Counci 1 Workshop -Minutes May 3, 1983 -- ------- o o Councilman Asting asked if the property to the west of the city of Edgewater limits could have a ditch dug to drain its land into one of the county canals, rather than into the city ditch. Mr. McClelland advised that they would determine whether it could be done if the property owner were to present same to the county. He advised that it is the city structure being affected, not the county structure. Councilman Asting again suggested that the area be sandbagged to prevent further erosion to private property owners; that being up to the owners, themselves, to install same. Mayor Ledbetter stated that they could not sandbag in Wildwood as they would start a precedent for Florida Shores, and they could not do that. Mr. McClelland stated that they would be stretching it to correct the situation for $50,000 as they cannot do it while the water is high. They have to seal it off and pump it dry. He cannot state what the real benefit in doing this will be. It is highly questionable as to whether this project would be worth $50,000. Bill Cross suggested that one of the things the city needs to do is to clean all the drainage pipes out within the subdivision. Mayor Ledbetter asked a question of Mr. Bill Cross regarding the catch basins in Wildwood. All the sand and debris is going right through the grates on the catch basin, filling them up, impeding the flow of the water. Can the catch basin be built up at least three or four inches so that the sand and debris could settle on the outside? Mr. McClelland advised that these are allover the county and are a traffic hazard, especially if they are within the recovery area of the roadway. Should you build one and someone strikes it, you have a liability potential. Bill Cross advised that the burden should be put on the home builders. According to the Planning Board, there are certain things the contractors should do to prevent this problem. He added the first thing to do is clean the pipes out, second to put some control where you could get the developers or home builders to not put so much sand down there. Councilman Asting asked that he be given a list of requirements to give to the builders. A member of the audience and resident of Wildwood suggested that some of the drains be brought up. He stated his drain is about a foot and a half below street level. On the west side the drains are very low and when the road is covered with water, if anyone slipped down into the drains, they would have to be towed out. He suggested the drains be raised a little bit so if you fell in there would be a way to get out. Mr. Copeland agreed that that was a good point - to bring them up to where they're sloping. Mr. McClelland advised that one of the things they do within the county is to require a performance bond and a maintenance agreement for one year where the developer is still responsible. The developer is required to post bond which is deposited in an escrow account. When he advised that they spent over $100,000 in this Wildwood area, they hope to recover about $45,000 of that from the original developer. At least they had s9me recourse for recovering some of the money spent on the project, which forced the developer to return to the site and correct some of the problems. Mr. McClelland stated that when some of the earlier subdivisions were put in, what was approved was based on the then known information. Therefore, some of those developments are being affected now by the things being built more recently. What is really needed is studies to be made of the whole area that is affected. Surveys need to be done. Present building projects may be affecting previous developments; we feel certain that is the case, however, we need very definitive studies to show what should be done. - 3- City Council Workshop Minutes May 3, 1983 o o Mr. McClelland stated that if they had these studies in hand today the price of a home would be much higher. The consumer would ultimately p~y. A home priced at $60,000 or $70,000 today could become a $90,000 or $100,000 home. The developer would argue that the things we have mentioned here today are not in the best interest of the people due to the costs involved. Councilwoman Gigi Bennington stated that she felt it would do no good to clean out the pipes at this point as it would not help Wildwood until all the construction is completed west of Wildwood. The ditch was cleaned out and is now filling up again with the muck and sand from the property west of Wildwood. Mr. Cross agreed with Councilwoman Bennington stating it was a constant maintenance problem. Mayor Ledbetter stated that if the council desired they could call a special meeting with the engineering firm and if the money is available, they will take care of the Wildwood problem. He is willing to move forward if the council does. The representative from mosquito control advised that last year the problems were determined, survey crews were involved, and Mr. Copeland went out there. The problems have been identified for two years but nothing has been done about it. Councilwoman Gigi Bennington suggested a special meeting be held Thursday afternoon, May 5, 1983, concerning this matter. After discussion among the members concerning the date, it was agreed that a meeting be held Thursday, May 5, 1983, at 1:30 p.m., notifying the city attorney and consulting engineers of same. Mayor Ledbetter asked that the finance director be contacted concerning how much money there is that can be used without using unappropriated funds. The problem will be solved one way or the other or funds will be reappropriated, if needed. Councilman Neil Asting asked that Earl Copeland be prepared to advise the cost of 30" concrete pipe, the cost of sandbagging the banks of the ditch for 600 feet, if that is the amount needed. Mr. Copeland stated that it would take roughly 10,000 bags for 600 feet. Mayor Ledbetter stated that most of the council have been out to the Wildwood area and are aware of the situation that occurs. They are aware that the building sites to the south end are filling up the drain pipes. The Mayor agreed that the problem is up to -the city council and not the county. Councilman Neil Asting moved to adjourn the meeting, Councilman Jack Spencer seconded. Meeting adjourned at 11:50 A.M. Minutes submitted by: Susan Misja - ~ --- ~ ~ -4- City Council Workshop Minutes May 3, 1983