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09-26-1984 - Special/Workshop - ~ o CITY COUNCIL OF EDGEWATER SPECIAL MEETING & WORKSHOP WITH PLANNING AND ZONING BOARD SEPTEMBER 26,1984 MINUTES Mayor Ledbetter called the meeting to order at 7:00 P.M. in the Community Center. COUNCIL ROLL CALL Mayor David Ledbetter Councilman Melbourne Wargo Councilwoman Gigi Bennington Councilman Neil Asting Present Present Present Present Councilman Jack Spencer City Attorney Jose' Alvarez City Clerk Connie Kinsey Pol ice Chief Douglas Betts Excused Present Present Arrived Later PLANNING & ZONING BOARD ROLL CALL Chairman Don Bennington Jake Wheeler Lyle Chenoweth Jim Poland Present Present Present Present Ann Thomas Fred Finn George Quaggin Present Excused Absent Also present were Gerard Ferrara, City Engineer, Dennis Fischer, Building Official, and Earl Copeland, Publ ic Works Superintendent. Stormwater management ordinance appl ication and exemptions - past and future practices was the first item on the agenda. City Attorney Alvarez reviewed the discrepancies in Ordinances 80-0-66 and 82-024-A regarding the exemptions of single family and duplexes. He noted that when the subject was researched, it was learned that the practice has never been followed. He noted that he had Mrs. Mista in the Planning Department prepare a memo reviewing the past history of stormwater management ordinances. He stated that the initial ordinance was adopted in 1980 and it had specific exemptions in it but he's found no evidence that this was enforced and it appeared to lay dormant until 1982 when 82-0-24A was adopted,which amended the original ordinance. He said the 1982 ordinance removed the single family and duplex exemptions with no explanation or reason. He noted that Frank Marshall brought this to attention when he was the City Engineer. He said the minutes related to the adoption of 82-0-24A show that Wildwood Subdivision was having some problems with flooding due to obstructions in the ditches along the side of the roads. He noted that an ordinance was prepared as 82-0-24 with an alternate of 82-0-24A and only 82-0-24A was adopted. City Attorney Alvarez stated that on June 7, 1982, the City Manager reported that corrective measures were taken to correct drainage problems in Wildwood and require- ments for driveway permits were stated. He added that the ordinance covers two subjects, to maintain the ditches alongside the roads and removes the exemption from the stormwater ordinance. He said he didn't know why this provision was amended and there's a section in the Code that deals specifically with culverts and swales and flow of water and it1s Section 15. He noted that Section 3 of 82-0-24A should be under the culvert provision. He said 82-0-24, which was not adopted, required a permit from the Publ ic Works Superintendent. He said 82-0-24A seems to accompl ish the same objective but removed the exemption. Mr. Frank Opal called a point of order and asked who signed the ordinance. City Attorney Alvarez repl ied that it was signed by Robert Christy, Jacob Lodico, Wilbert Pendelton, John Wilbur, and the former City Attorney. Mayor Ledbetter noted that the ordinance was prepared by the former City Attorney but was not signed by him. City Attorney Alvarez noted that this problem became apparent when Frank Marshall began to enforce 82-0-24A, but according to the City Clerk, they never required stormwater calculations for single famil ies and it hasn't been practiced. He suggested they either amend the ordinance to comply with the practice or change the practice to comply with the ordinance. Q u City Attorney Alvarez stated that the present City Engineer made regarding the All iance Church and helll use that as an example. Planning and Zoning tried to follow the criteria and they didnlt pol icy and coverage or enforcement. a rul ing He added that ha ve a c 1 ea r Mayor Ledbetter pointed out that an ordinance is supposed to address one subject and 82-0-24A has two subjects. City Attorney Alvarez said there are two separate aspects, stormwater is to retain a certain amount of water within your property and drainage and swales and culverts and driveways are the other problems. He noted that the objectives are to have drainage and to retain water and it's two different sections of the ordinance. Mr. Don Bennington, Chairman of the Planning & Zoning Board, noted that the June 7th minutes reflect the four reasons for this ordinance and the fourth regarded back yard ponding caused by poor grading and they were concerned with more than just swales and culverts. Mayor Ledbetter reviewed the history of the problems with the home in Wildwood that had the flooding problems. Mr. Bennington suggested that was why it was in the stormwater ordinance. City Attorney Alvarez agreed but said it would belong in Section 15. Councilman Asting noted that the September 11th memo from the Building Official states that no permit is needed to pour a driveway or sidewalk and he feels this should be changed and addressed in the amendment to the ordinance. Mayor Ledbetter said if there's a drainage ditch in the front of the houses, they should contact the Publ ic Works Superintendent to see if it requires a culvert or not. Councilman Asting suggested a permit be obtained for a sidewalk and Dennis Fischer, the Building Official, said they should decide to issue it or not, depending on how it will affect drainage. Mr. Bennington said the question came up at their meeting and the engineer said a project compl ies with stormwater management and they had a shell parking lot, whether a permit is required to pave that parking lot later, and the answer was that no permit is required. Councilman Asting said back yard ponding is getting worse in Florida Shores due to more building and the lots are below the road bed and they have to come up to the ordinance requirements. He noted this ponding could be a health hazard and breeding place for mosquitoes. Councilwoman Bennington distributed pictures of a home in Florida Shores on Travelers Palm. Councilman Asting noted that 29th and Needle Palm is also a bad spot and he called the Building Official's attention to it and he acted on it. Mr. Bennington asked how they can straighten out this problem and Mayor Ledbetter noted that it IS at least 18" to 20" higher than floor level at her house and it throws all the water down to her back yard. Councilman Asting noted that ponding is occurring on the easements between the properties. Councilman Wargo said they discussed this before that whoever builds the house that high is responsible for swal ing the back end of the property, and it's the same for driveways with one contractor building a swale and the next one not building one. Mr. Bennington stated that passing an ordinance won't do any good if it's not enforced. Councilwoman Bennington noted that 82-0-24A is already covered under Section 15 which addresses driveways and swales. Mr. Bennington stated that it was passed for back yard ponding also. There was a discussion about the All iance Church needing corrective measures for their addition and the C/O being issued without the corrections made. Mr. Bennington noted that he was told by the former City Engineer that the parking lot of the All iance Church is what is causing all of Mr. Armstrong's problems. Councilman Wargo said he was called by the minister of the All iance Church and he agreed to whatever is necessary and the Church is buying the lot behind the parking lot and making a retention pond to alleviate the problem. Mr. Bennington again stated that ~e ordinances aren1t being enforced and he asked who authorized the people to change their site plans as they violated their plans and only Planning and Zoning can modify it. He asked how they got final approval and Councilwoman Bennington repl ied that the Building Official approved it. Mr. Fischer stated that there was correspondence from the engineer of record that it was okay. Mr. Ferrara noted that the engineer of record certified that it compl ied with the site plan. Mr. Bennington said he saw the letter but the engineer hadn't looked at it. Councilwoman Bennington noted that Planning and Zoning can put any condition on a site plan and it has to be adhered to for the C/O. City Council/Planning & Zoning Board Special Heeting & Workshop Minutes September 26,1984 -2- ~ Q Mr. Fischer stated that he asked the engineer of record to certify the storm- water program and when those letters are received, that completes the initial requirements and when inspections are done of the basic structure, then power is called and the C/O is written. Councilwoman Bennington noted that in Mr. Ferrara's letter it said no work was done on the existing parking lot as plans are shown approved by the City and she read an excerpt from the letter. She said there's nothing in stormwater regulations but in site plan approval and Mr. Ferrara wasn't informed that conditions can be placed by the Planning and Zoning Board. Mr. Bennington read from the Code, page 757, regarding making changes and he said a driveway permit should fall into the same thing. Mr. Poland asked about a swimming pool and Councilwoman Bennington said she thought it would be also. Mr. Frank Opal, from the audience, said he was on the Planning Board when the subject came up and held suggested it go to DER to be checked out. He added that he voted against the project and he was the only one who voiced negative opinions on it and it's a violation of law. Mr. Bennington said the other board members voted based on the assumption that the people would comply with whatever they're told to do. Mayor Ledbetter said he expects people to stay with what's on the site plan and any deviation should come back to the board and the City Engineer. City Attorney Alvarez said the second item is exemptions for single family and duplexes. Councilman Wargo noted that stormwater management isn't conducive to large areas but to homes and other areas. Mr. Ferrara said on single family and duplex residences they are truly exempted from the stormwater management because they would get into too many studies to review them. He noted that there are problems with the old subdivisions where streets weren't put in to grade with no consideration for drainage. He said certain areas have standing water and possibly the ground won't perc or it's flat and they have to have ditches or swales in front or behind and swale them to the street. He said they can't do anything with an individual person because there's usually no place for the water to go. He added that they need to master plan a drainage system for those areas to get the water out. City Attorney Alvarez asked about when a shopping center is the size of a duplex and Mr. Ferrara said normally itls located downtown where it's simple to take the water away. He reviewed that a normal lot has 20% runoff, when built on it's 45% runoff, and with parking on commercial, it's 95%. Councilwoman Bennington asked if the ponding in Florida Shores is basically on the util ity easements across the back. Mr. Ferrara said they have to consider if it's a local thing or a large area with the problem, and if it's a large area they can set up a master plan and move the water along. Councilman Asting said the bonding could have a swale to take it to a canal. Councilwoman Bennington asked who would pay for it if it's on private property or a util ity easement as the City takes care of swales and culverts in the front. Councilman Asting said he feels it's the builders' problem. Mr. Ferrara noted that water sometimes stands due to the soil not being able to take it and if not, then they have to move it but an individual lot owner can't do it. Councilwoman Bennington asked about triplexes or quadruplexes and Mr. Ferrara said it's 4 or 5 buildings on a property, thatls considered a project but he doesn't classify one triplex as a multi-family. City Attorney Alvarez asked who would make the decision since each case stands on its own merits. Mr. Ferrara said it appears there are certain areas with the ponding and it might be wise to look at it and decide what can be done and recommend it to the builders in the area. He added that there might be an easy solution and he can look at it with Mr. Copeland. Councilwoman Bennington suggested when a builder comes in for single family or multi-family in one of these problem areas, either Mr. Copeland or Mr. Fischer or Planning and Zoning can recommend that the City Engineer and Publ ic Works Superintendent look at it. Mr. Bennington asked if they're required to have engineering calculations or can they say they'll swale it on a plan and the Engineer can look at it. Councilwoman Bennington asked who would enforce it and make sure it's done. Mr. Ferrara noted that when the project is completed, someone has to verify it meets the requirements, but it's expensive for an engineer to make a study for each one and it's not fair to the individual family. City Council/Planning & Zoning Board Special Meeting & Workshop Minutes September 26,1984 -3- u u Councilwoman Bennington asked who would do the inspections since our Building Official has said he doesn't feel qual ified to do it and they need to know whols responsible to enforce it. Mr. Ferrara said the Building Official could do it and if he sees something doesn't look just right, then he can call the City Engineer for assistance. Councilwoman Bennington noted that there's sometimes double expense for the builder and the City for engineering time. Mr. Ferrara stated that new subdivisions aren't a problem. Councilman Asting said in swa1 ing the back yards, it's up to the builders not to permit any debris to collect along the easement so City forces don't have to contend with moving the debris. Mr. Ferrara pointed on that it's on private property and if the City does it, it would set a precedence. Councilman Asting said they can't expect the builder to do it because he's building on an individual lot. Mr. Poland pointed out that if the City starts it then other citizens will call and ask for help. Councilman Asting said it's happening now with calls about drainage. Mr. Bennington recalled that City trucks went to Wildwood and there were a lot of complaints about them working on private property. Councilwoman Bennington suggested that when someone adds to or alters their lot, the Building Official must decide if it's in the area where the City Engineer should look at it. Mr. Poland asked where the water will go. Councilwoman Bennington said they have the problem on Pine Tree and Travelers Palm and they're putting in culverts and swales and they need to start a system and hope to hit enough to correct the problem. Mr. Ferrara said the land can be sloped in such a manner that the back lot 1 ines drain to the front of the street but it's expensive. Mr. Bennington said he was told the houses are built so high because of septic tank requirements. Mr. Ferrara said if the Health Department requires three feet of fill, the water table is at ground level. Mr. Wheeler noted that there's a problem with Pel ican Cove West because of the deep excavation. Mr. Ferrara said helll look at the problem in the pictures and see if there's a solution. Councilwoman Bennington asked who's at fault for causing that problem and Mr. Ferrara repl ied that nobody's at fault because the water would be there anyway. Councilwoman Bennington asked how they can address the problem and Mr. Ferrara said they can put it on record that anybody who buys in a particular area will have a problem with standing water. He added that the builders can fill in and the City could possibly force them to fill it in the back lot 1 ine. Councilwoman Bennington said the people didn't see standing water until the foundation was poured. Mayor Ledbetter noted that the property is low at one side. Mr. Fischer pointed out that there was not sod in the back yard of the two new homes and there's not clean fill so there's additional runoff, plus when they clear a lot they take a lot of earth with it. Mr. Ferrara agreed it's usually about 61'. Mr. Poland asked about water runoff when they build on a lot higher than the neighbor's and Mr. Ferrara said the water level stays the same. Mr. Poland said a barrier won't serve any purpose by tell ing a home owner to keep the water on his property. Mr. Ferrara said it will be at the same level it always was. City Attorney Alvarez said if they repeal Ord. 82-0-24A the exemption will be automatically reinstated in the original ordinance and it will return single family and duplexes as exempt so long as they donlt exceed two units per lot. Mr. Ferrara said therels nothing wrong with that. City Attorney Alvarez noted that another thing that will happen is Section 3 requires swales be kept clean and any builders or homeowners install ing a driveway has to get a permit from the Pub1 ic Works Superintendent and Building Official but they can remove that and re-enact it under culverts, Section 15 of the Code. City Attorney Alvarez asked if a duplex used in a commercial venture would be exempt because of the parking lot. Mr. Fischer said no permit is required for paving a parking lot~ driveway or sidewalk. City Attorney Alvarez suggested that this be addressed. Mr. Bennington said it's required under stormwater on page 757. City Attorney Alvarez said if no building permit is required, therels no way to control it and he asked where they should require permits for Council and the Board. Mr. Ferrara suggested a rule and the dividing point is 1,000 square feet for building or parking lot or any combination and it's a one-time thing. City Council/Planning & Zoning Board Special Meeting & Workshop Minutes September 26, 1984 -4- . . o o Mr. Ferrara continued that if an area is already developed, they're exempt up to 1,000 feet for one time only and one site is one exemption. Mr. Bennington and Mr. Ferrara reviewed this 1,000 feet, one-time exemption process. City Attorney Alvarez asked how they can enforce the 1,000 feet exemption if no building permit is required and Councilman Wargo said they can require a building permit. City Attorney Alvarez asked how they'll know they're doing it. Mr. Ferrara said if it's an individual home, it doesn't need stormwater management and if it's commercial, the dividing point is 1,000 feet. Councilwoman Bennington said when he appl ies for the building permit and it's checked and is over 1,000 feet, then a fee can be imposed, but they have to have enforcement on the action. City Attorney Alvarez noted that on the forms developed by Frank Marshall, there's a criteria for sites of one acre or more. Mr. Ferrara said they shouldn't have size of land and there's a form that all engineers use that he's recommended. Mrs. Mista, Planning Secretary, said on requirements for site plan approval it states one acre but not on stormwater. City Clerk Kinsey noted that they can just take that item off. Mr. Ferrara reiterated that land amount shouldn't be the dividing point. City Attorney Alvarez said they need to clarify the distribution of obI igations and with the building permits, someone will determine that stormwater is required and the ordinance is clear that the City Engineer supervise the calculations. He asked if they require stormwater before or after site plan and said this would prevent a project's getting final approval without site plan approval. Mr. Ferrara said they should get approval of the site plan before engineering because of the cost and should be told to follow the rules and then there's a review by the engineer. Mr. Bennington agreed with that and said they were told not to approve plans with stipulations but to submit them when they're complete, but they want to save people the time coming back later. Mr. Ferrara suggested if the site plan is approved it has to be checked off and approved by the Building Official and he doesn't sign off until all are done and the stormwater reviewed by him and the City Engineer or they shouldn't be permitted to move into the building. Mr. Bennington said they'd 1 ike to make their approvals subject to some contingencies. Mr. Ferrara agreed no permits should be issued until all issues are met. Mr. Bennington said Planning and Zoning shouldn't hold the man up and detain him and make him come back and some things haven't been finished and are being referred to the Code Enforcement Board. Mr. Ferrara said they can get strong on enforcement. Mr. Poland stated that their Board shouldn't be an enforcement agency. Mr. Ferrara said the enforcement should be the City Engineer and the Building Official. There was further discussion about the All iance Church problem. Mr. Ferrara noted that they can cut the power off if they didn't go along with the plans. Councilwoman Bennington asked about how the lOa-year flood plain affects the storm- water management. Mr. Ferrara said the people should be told if they're in the flood plain. Councilwoman Bennington asked if anyone pull ing a permit in the flood plain should be notified by the City Engineer and Mr. Ferrara repl ied yes. Councilwoman Bennington pointed out that the Comprehensive Plan suggests discouraging development in the lOa-year flood plain. Mr. Ferrara said they can build in it and there's flood insurance for it, and it's hard to discourage it when there are a lot of small lots in there, but they can set conditions. There was further discussion about the means of notifying people in the flood plain areas. Mr. Ferrara noted that the biggest problem is with the Health Department if there's no sewer there. City Attorney Alvarez said if they amend the ordinance everyone in single family and duplexes for residential purposes will be exempt from the ordinance. He asked why the City Engineer is asked to review these with less than one acre and Mr. Bennington said it's from past practice and the ordinance says anything over one acre requires a topo but doesn't say anything about stormwater management. He suggested they strike topos required except for single family and duplexes on page 1635. City Attorney Alvarez said there's no connection between topos with one acre or more and stormwater, and Mr. Bennington agreed. City Attorney Alvarez suggested leaving it alone and said stormwater is on the basis of size and use, exempting single family and duplex residences. Mr. Ferrara stated that most site plans show some type of topo and it should be on there. Councilwoman Bennington pointed out that it specifically says one acre or more, so they'd have to amend that also. City Council/Planning & Zoning Board Special Meeting & Workshop Minutes September 26, 1984 -5- ~ o City Attorney Alvarez asked if single family site plans in R-4, etc., will have site plan requirements and Mr. Bennington said if they're in multi-family they will and he suggested it be amended for any building approved under an existing subdivision be exempt from site plan approval. He added that the Building Official can determine if the setbacks are okay and other requirements are met. City Attorney Alvarez said until legislation is implemented they need directives from Counc i 1 . Councilwoman Bennington moved that they repeal Ordinance 82-0-24A. Councilman Wargo seconded the motion. Motion CARRIED 4-0. Councilwoman Bennington moved to direct the City Attorney to draw up an amendment to Ordinance 80-0-66 and re-establ ish single family and duplex residences as an exemption. Councilman Asting seconded the motion. Motion CARRIED 4-0. Councilwoman Bennington moved that on Ordinance 82-0-24A, in the process of repealing the section applying to driveways and swales, Section 3, be worded and drawn up to be placed in the appropriate section in relationship to culverts, Section 15. Councilman Wargo seconded the motion. Motion CARRIED 4-0. Councilwoman Bennington asked if single family and duplexes are exempt now since a motion of intent was made and City Attorney Alvarez said yes. City Clerk Kinsey asked if that includes administratively and City Attorney Alvarez repl ied yes. City Attorney Alvarez reviewed what would be exempt and removed. Councilwoman Bennington suggested they put the subject of previously approved subdivisions on the Planning and Zoning Board agenda and submit something to Council. City Attorney Alvarez said helll need something from Mr. Fischer on parking lots so a permit will be required. Mr. Ferrara said they should come in and check with a plan and get approval and when it passes 1,000 feet they need stormwater but they'll need a permit. Councilwoman Bennington suggested the Planning and Zoning Board meet with Mr. Ferrara and Mr. Fischer and draw up an ordinance to submit to Council. Mr. Bennington said they'll have to amend the stormwater if they're talking about 1,000 square feet because it states that nobody can make changes. Mr. Ferrara said that can be one of the exemptions. City Attorney Alvarez suggested a memo be sent to Council for action. Councilwoman Bennington suggested it be on their next agenda and before they do the ordinance they get the entire package and all the changes can be incorporated in one ordinance. Mr. Bennington agreed. Rezoning initiated by City - procedures and Voluntary annexation - procedures - City Attorney Alvarez suggested these two items be deffered to another occasion. Councilman Wargo moved to adjourn. Councilwoman Bennington seconded the motion. Meeting was adjourned at 9:00 P.M. Lura Sue Koser ~ {/ Cl~MAb:~ ONE . (J/ -' ~~~~~~ COUN~WOMAN - ZONE TWO r -~~.~ COUNCILMAN - Z~ THREE~ cou~r~~ ,1984. 'f:H~ V t(L<? () U~ (7 4'--0 I Minutes submitted by: ~ ATTEST A861AI,) City Council/Planning & Zoning Board Special Meeting & Workshop Minutes September 26,1984 -6- -""""'"