03-05-2007 - Regular
CITY COUNCIL OF EDGEWATER
REGULAR MEETING
MARCH 5, 2007
7:00 P.M.
COMMUNITY CENTER
MINUTES
CALL TO ORDER
1.
Mayor Thomas called the Regular Meeting to order at 7:00
p.m. in the Community Center.
ROLL CALL
Mayor Michael Thomas Present
Councilwoman Debra Rogers Present
Councilman Dennis Vincenzi Present
Councilwoman Harriet Rhodes Present
Councilwoman Judith Lichter Present
City Manager Jon Williams Present
City Clerk Susan Wadsworth Present
City Attorney Carolyn Ansay Present
INVOCATION, PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
There was a silent invocation and pledge of allegiance to
the Flag.
2. APPROVAL OF MINUTES
A. Special Meeting of September 25, 2006
Councilwoman Lichter moved to approve the September 25,
2006 Special Meeting minutes, second by Councilwoman
Rhodes
.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0
.
B. Regular Meeting of November 6, 2006
Councilwoman Rogers moved to approve the November 6, 2006
minutes, second by Councilwoman Lichter
.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0
.
Page 1 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
3. PRESENTATIONS/PROCLAMATIONS/PLAQUES/CERTIFICATES/DON
ATIONS
A. Pure Air Control Services, reporting on
environmental qualify concerns within City Hall,
Council Chambers and the Planning area
No one was present from Pure Air Control Services to make a
presentation.
B. Certificate of Achievement presented to the
Finance Department for Excellence in Financial
Reporting for Fiscal Year Ended September 30,
2005
Mayor Thomas presented Finance Director Brett Tanner with
the Certificate of Achievement for Excellence in Financial
Reporting.
4. CITIZEN COMMENTS
The following citizens spoke:
Jeff Marris
, 2503 Fern Palm Drive, stated it is his
understanding the City of Edgewater is in talks with
Volusia County to staff the Fire Station in Oak Hill with
money from a grant that was obtained, SAFER Grant from the
government. He disclosed that he is a Volusia County
Firefighter. He spoke of plans in the works to put a
third firefighter there and they are already advanced life
support. He had a meeting with Fire Chief Barlow and asked
him who would pay the cost as the grant goes away over five
years and he said that was undecided. It is unknown
whether the City would pay it or not. The other day at the
Town Hall Meeting the City Manager said this would be done
at no cost to the City. Then he stated that there are
plans to hire three supervisors and a quick response unit
for EMS to cover the expanded area and personnel. That is
contradictory. There is a cost right there. It concerns
him as a taxpayer that this could end up raising the taxes
in Edgewater. After five years who is going to take over
when the government isn’t paying for that anymore? One of
the citizens at the Town Hall meeting said the City’s
priority list was either upside down or doesn’t exist.
Along with that, many people were complaining because they
came to the Police Station after a certain time of day and
there was nobody there. He asked why they are looking to
Page 2 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
staff Oak Hill’s Fire Station but yet the City can’t
provide coverage in our City in our Police Station for
twenty-four hours. He asked if it would be possible to
take the money to hire the three supervisors and EMS Unit
and do something about the Police Station instead. If the
City of Edgewater is truly $45 million in debt isn’t it
more of a priority to work on reducing that debt than
staffing another City’s Fire Station. The City Manager
accused him the other day of being against closest unit
response. As a firefighter for nine years, being in that
truck and responding past other Fire Stations to help
people or sitting at his Fire Station and watching a City
fire truck go by is the worst feeling in the world and the
closest unit response, none of them want anything more than
that.
Mayor Thomas asked about this not being on the agenda
tonight but being on an agenda in the future. City Manager
Williams stated this is in the very early stages of
negotiations with Volusia County. Volusia County has
approached the City and asked the City if they were
interested. They would be very interested. He feels it is
prudent upon them pending the Legislative Action or the
House Action to do something with tax reform that all
cities start looking at ways that they can provide some
intergovernmental coordination to help lower the cost and
continue to provide the same level of service within any
jurisdiction. It is very preliminary at this point.
Mayor Thomas suggested due to the large agenda that Mr.
Marris be notified when this is going to be placed on the
agenda.
City Manager Williams informed Council of the memo he
provided to them from Fire Chief Barlow regarding a
response to questions regarding the SAFER Grant.
Terry Packer
, 1914 Sabal Palm Drive, disclosed that she had
spoken to Councilwoman Rhodes, Councilman Vincenzi and
Councilwoman Rogers about her issue. She stated she has a
problem with the Building Department. Not only is the City
providing Fire Services for the City of Oak Hill but they
are also providing Building Services too. Our Building
Department goes to Oak Hill? She asked why that would be?
It doesn’t seem right that they have to pay for their
Building Department and their Fire Department. She asked
if the Police Department is going down there too?
Page 3 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Ms. Packer stated she contacted Councilwoman Rhodes with a
problem she had with the Building Department. Councilwoman
Rhodes informed her she called her back. Ms. Packer stated
she gave her a quick answer and the problem didn’t get
solved. She asked her if she has done anything further.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated she is under the impression the
problem is solved. The inspections are being made as fast
as they can be made. She talks about tax money. She wants
to hire another inspector to inspect these houses. Our
inspector has time to inspect these houses. That is what
she was told. Ms. Packer stated not if he is going to Oak
Hill too. Councilwoman Rhodes stated she didn’t know that
he was going to Oak Hill.
Ms. Packer stated the other problem is Councilwoman Rhodes
told her they are being inspected at a rate of twenty per
day. Councilwoman Rhodes stated she never said that. Ms.
Packer stated she told her Frank was capable of twenty
inspections a day and that these houses were going to be
inspected rapidly because of the need. Councilwoman Rhodes
stated she said they were being inspected as fast as they
could. That there were not a lot of permits and a lot of
other inspections that he needed to do so that he could do
many in a day. Ms. Packer stated she has since brought the
problem to Councilman Vincenzi and Councilwoman Rogers and
it will be taken care of now.
City Manager Williams stated they asked Building Official
Dennis Fischer to be at the meeting tonight and he could
update them on that issue.
Councilwoman Lichter asked about Building Official Fischer
working for Oak Hill but not in Edgewater’s capacity. Oak
Hill pays for that service. City Manager Williams informed
her that was correct.
Building Official Dennis Fischer stated he is under
contract with Oak Hill and has been for better than fifteen
years to provide them the services that they need. He
further reported they are diligently catching up on
inspections they had to put on the back burner since the
hurricanes. They were unable to hire additional people
after the hurricanes to help catch up. They are making
appointments with these individuals to get in the home. It
is hard to find people at home to get an opportunity to
come in. Since that time they have done a second mailing
Page 4 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
to these individuals. They mailed over 47 certified mail
th
issues sent out on February 15. They have gotten over 40
responses. They have four undeliverables and three
unknowns. In the last few days of this month, they have
performed nine of those inspections with two of those
needing corrections that they will need to go back on. In
February they did over 35 inspections on top of the other
inspections they perform. They do do 25 inspections a day
including these and including the rest of the work that has
still been going on, the commercial work. He is down to
three people in the Building Department due to illness and
leave. They are doing the best they can with the staff
they have. The Mechanical Contractor in question has
hired two different electrical firms to help correct some
of the electrical problems they had with some of the
installations. He did violate Florida Statutes regarding
installation of air conditioning equipment. They took him
to the Board over in Volusia County. He is presently going
to be on the April Agenda for DBPR for action or whatever
they are going to take in sanctions against him for doing
electrical work outside his realm. They have forced him to
hire electricians to perform all the work he has bee doing
since then. They have had 103 inspections pass since they
started this program.
Mayor Thomas clarified he works forty hours a week for the
City and he is contracted part time with Oak Hill. Mr.
Fischer informed him two nights in Oak Hill. Ms. Packer
mentioned Bunnell. Mr. Fischer also disclosed he has a
contract with the City of Bunnell on Saturdays.
Councilman Vincenzi asked if it is one contractor in
particular or a number of contractors. Mr. Fischer stated
they had one contractor that had these issues and he is the
largest permit puller the City has regarding mechanical.
Councilman Vincenzi asked about the contractor being
allowed to perform work without inspections. Mr. Fischer
explained they were doing an affidavit basis because of the
hurricane status, where he was self-certifying. They did
that with roofing also. They were allowed to do that as an
emergency stop measure. Councilman Vincenzi asked if they
were still doing that. Mr. Fischer informed him no.
Councilman Vincenzi asked when they stopped. Mr. Fischer
informed him months ago.
Page 5 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Councilman Vincenzi confirmed that every job they do is
being inspected. Mr. Fischer informed him absolutely.
They are finding electrical problems in the installation of
previous air conditioning units that this contract is
fixing at no expense to the homeowners. The contractor is
cooperating 100%.
Councilwoman Rogers asked Mr. Fischer when he was made
aware to begin these inspections. Mr. Fischer stated this
came to fruition with Ms. Packer’s incident. He self
certified his installation of which he had an electrical
failure. From that inspection, they saw that and from
there they decided to look at the rest of those. Ms.
Packer came by quite often to monitor that.
Councilwoman Rogers asked when the initial letters were
sent out. Mr. Fischer informed her in November.
Councilwoman Rogers stated she is privy to some information
and from what she understands, these affidavits they
granted, this specific HVAC contractor, they granted him
these waivers well beyond the time frame. The hurricanes
were back in 2004 and there was no accountability with this
specific contractor and problems began and Ms. Packer
brought it to the attention of the Building Department and
nothing was done after several attempts. Eventually
something was done and she believed it was Ms. Packer that
filed the initial complaint with DBPR. Mr. Fischer
informed her Ms. Packer signed the affidavit.
City Manager Williams stated once they learned of this
situation, he and Mr. Fischer had communication and issued
a directive from his office that they are no longer in the
business of issuing affidavits. At this point if they ever
get into a situation where the circumstances require them
to do that they will certainly be looking at options of
hiring out for outside inspections or if the situation
dictates affidavits of that nature they will certainly
require the homeowner to indemnify and hold harmless the
City.
Councilwoman Rogers asked if when an HVAC job is done in
the City is the HVAC Contractor allowed to pull his permit
and the electrical permit. Mr. Fischer informed him they
now have to name the electrician. Councilwoman Rogers
stated when this specific contractor initially pulled those
155+ permits was there an electrical contractor listed on
the application. Mr. Fischer informed her there wasn’t.
Page 6 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Councilwoman Rogers feels this would be an error of the
Building Department because they issued a permit when there
wasn’t. In Volusia County they wouldn’t unless there are
licensed contractors listed and verified. Mr. Fischer
informed her the mechanical change out part of the unit
could be performed without an electrical permit being
issued if there isn’t any change in the wiring system
itself other than the removal and reinstallation. They
have instituted a new application form that requires the
contractor to list the amperage and wire size of the
existing and the proposed so they can verify that an
electrical permit is needed for that work. Councilwoman
Rogers asked when the new application forms came to be.
Mr. Fischer informed her the first of the year.
Councilwoman Rogers questioned the work they are re-
inspecting or inspecting for the first time since the
beginning of 2007 was work that was done last year and
previous. Mr. Fischer stated they are going back and
looking at every permit they issued to that one contractor
and going backwards through notification. They sent out
notice by certified mail because they can’t get in contact
with every one of those individuals.
Councilwoman Rogers stated there would be a meeting with
Mr. Fischer, herself and City Manager Williams and Ms.
Packer on Thursday. She has reviewed a very thick file and
she has more questions.
Ferd Heeb
, 115 N. Riverside Drive, stated the Comptroller
General of the United States reminded America Sunday night
that the eldest baby boomers would turn 62 in 2008 and be
on Medicare in 2011. With our legislature trying their
you
damndest to reduce the impact of ad valorem taxes,
better bar the door??????23.44
Dennis Buelk
, 2419 Woodland Drive, President, Edgewater
Shuffleboard Club, stated the Club was formed in March 1961
so this year they are celebrating 46 years they have been
in the City. He commented on an article in the paper
regarding the property the City was thinking about buying
for the Library. In the article it had one of the options
that the City was going to fund it was to use the
shuffleboard money that was appropriated this year. He
asked that they don’t do that and find some other way to
fund it.
Page 7 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Mayor Thomas asked Mr. Buelk how many members they had in
their club. Mr. Buelk informed him forty-eight.
John Welton
, Port Orange resident, stated Port Orange is a
part of Volusia County as he believed Edgewater was. He is
an officer in the Volusia County Shuffleboard Association.
They are representing the Northern District Shuffleboard
Association, of which Edgewater is also a part. What
happens in Edgewater reflects on the senior citizens
throughout the County and throughout the district. What
they have seen, if this is so, is a trend that is very
disturbing. If this is so, he can’t see any fiscal
responsibility in using moneys that have already been
appropriated for another situation, which will not be
reimbursed whereas their moneys would be reimbursed. It
just seems like fiscal responsibility to him and it
certainly is reflected that way throughout the County and
throughout the District.
Dominic Capria
, 606 Topside Circle, stated the bills that
were received for water, sewer, refuse, recycling, utility
tax, he understands went up by 3%. He would like an answer
at the next meeting, how much they have in these separate
funds and what the expenses are in these separate funds.
Mr. Capria asked for an update on what is going on with
Edgewater Harbor. They are talking about a lot of money
that is owed to the City and he doesn’t see anything coming
in.
Mayor Thomas informed him that was under Public Hearings,
Ordinances and Resolutions. Mr. Capria asked if it would
be open for discussion. Mayor Thomas informed him it
would.
Carol Ann Stoughton
, 2740 Evergreen Drive, mentioned the
City being $45 million in debt. She feels they must start
reducing our debts before they go forward in any other
building programs. She asked if they presently have the
required moneys that they are supposed to have according to
our Charter.
Ms. Stoughton also spoke on behalf of a friend on Woodland
Drive, who is a senior citizen, whose water bill usually
runs around $64.00. They are now $90 and the water
department said she has no leaks. She knows the City needs
Page 8 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
money but she feels they need to watch taking money from
poor, senior citizens.
Ms. Stoughton commented on a person in the Building
Department that was fired after working for the City for
two and a half years. From what she hears, she is going to
sue. She feels they should start downsizing in City
Manager Williams’ office with the perks. There is a total
of $290,000 being spent under the City Manager’s
department. She feels they have to start downsizing with
the top officials. Everybody wants to work in Edgewater
because that is where they are making the money.
Wilfred Pelletier
, 1801 Kumquat Drive, Officer, Florida
Shuffleboard Association, stated he was at one of the Town
Meetings with Councilwoman Rogers and City Manager Williams
and they had very good conversation, some enlightment that
they didn’t really know. The building that was removed in
2004 was actually built by the Shuffleboard people. It
wasn’t an expense the City did. It seems to him that the
damage of the hurricane, he didn’t know how they could
destroy 16 poured concrete courts but apparently it was
done. Within forty-eight to seven-two hours, they lost
their shuffleboard courts and facility and now here they
are in 2007 and they are still waiting for their courts to
be built. He understood they do have the permits and now
they read an article in the paper that there is a chance
that because the need of the many may overcome what is
right to the few that they may try to use some of that
money to do a project that may get done. They still need
to buy two more houses to do what they want to do. Are
they able to keep their word? It came up before the Board.
It got passed. They have a Committee that has been working
with the Engineers and Parks and Rec. They helped with the
design of the building and the lighting. It is going to be
a very nice facility if and when it ever gets built. He
then asked if they needed to stay until the Library item
comes up on the agenda to discuss this more.
Mayor Thomas informed him that was entirely up to him.
Dot Carlson
, 1714 Edgewater Drive, representing ECARD,
formally announced that ECARD would be running a new
petition, which is Amendment to Edgewater City Charter
regarding residential density west of I-95. She has
already received a poison pen letter. They filled out the
form but only with their first and last name. The first
Page 9 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
name started with an F and the last name was a U. She
considers herself lucky. She has irritated someone, which
means she is doing her job.
Leo Towsley
, 2828 Unity Tree Drive, stated he was here
about the dog pound again and would be until they get rid
of it. He was reading in the paper last week about the
$261,335 it takes to run the place. The City said they
paid $99,300. He asked where the other $162,000 would come
from. They were under this agreement when they voted for
the thing about the $500,000 to put up the building and to
be run by volunteers and donations and now the City is
kicking in $99,000 a year. Councilwoman Lichter stated
there are volunteers there during the day and community
service people that are using up prison time helping and a
day laborer that doesn’t get perks. There is a history
that would take twenty-minutes. She informed Mr. Towsley
he has only heard one side of the story. She mentioned
representing the City when she served on the Humane
Society. She would like Mr. Towsley to contact her at home
to hear a different side of what happened. Mr. Towsley
wanted everyone to hear where the money is coming from.
Councilwoman Lichter mentioned a workshop that would be
held by the City Manager where he would present various
options of what they are going to do. She would like her
fellow Councilmembers to also come and visit the shelter.
She welcomed Mr. Towsley to come also.
Mr. Towsley stated coming to visit is one thing, paying for
the place is another. He doesn’t want to be paying all
this money. Councilwoman Lichter informed him she is a
taxpayer too. Mr. Towsley informed her and she is also a
volunteer and this is one of her pet projects.
Councilwoman Lichter informed him this City is her pet
project.
Councilwoman Rogers stated she asked City Manager Williams
the same question and he said it was in their budget
report. She suggested he ask the newspaper writer where
she received that information and then he may get his
answers.
Councilwoman Lichter stated she welcomes a phone call.
Mike Stull
, 1401 S. Ridgewood Avenue, Suite 5, twenty plus
year Edgewater resident, asked if the Library discussion
Page 10 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
would be open for discussion. Mayor Thomas informed him
yes.
5. CITY COUNCIL REPORTS
Councilwoman Lichter stated since the last time they met
she has been to three workshops on the property tax
situation. Tallahassee puts certain financial
responsibilities on cities that many people don’t realize
in terms of pensions, working conditions of firemen and
policemen. They have in the last few years absolutely cut
the percentage of money they give us for our roads, which
means local communities kick in more. They have cut the
percentage of money they give to hospitals and health care,
which means local communities give more. Mental Services
and that type of thing have been cut and especially school
money has been cut. All picked up by local communities.
She commented on speaking at a workshop called by Evelyn
Lynn. There were hundreds of people that spoke for the
citizens that the property taxes are unfair, unjust and
inequitable. She agreed but felt a quick fix is not the
answer. These cities are going to be so deprived of
resources that things they all want no doubt will have to
be cut.
Councilwoman Lichter stated she appreciated the desire for
the shuffleboard. Many seniors play. That is a worthwhile
activity. The mural also got wiped out that day. She
believes promises are promises and a handshake is a
handshake.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on very few legislators
speaking at the end of that meeting. She told them she
thought they formed a Committee and they should wait until
they get their Committee report to see what they recommend
before rushing into this. The whole situation has to be
fixed.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on a workshop that she
attended as well as Mayor Thomas and City Manager Williams,
where there were five speakers. There were people
representing the tax group, our Assessor, and people from
the League of Cities, which is a group that every city in
the State belongs to. That is a group that also thinks
there are injustices in the tax situation. The League has
some concrete ideas to help that and help fill the void.
She feels Tallahassee should listen to them also.
Page 11 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Councilwoman Lichter briefly commented on a meeting she
attended for the League of Cities itself. She has been
very busy trying to get input in and understand what this
is going to mean. It well may mean unless they think of an
alternate way to help our resources. Just turning back the
clock to what the City paid in taxes five or seven or eight
years ago is not what it appears on the surface. Our
community has increased in residents. Gas and other things
have increased. Many things have changed. To turn it back
to that it would mean taking away things they all want and
need and joining in with other communities for various
services. She feels they all need to keep an eye on this
and need to have a workshop.
Councilwoman Rogers expressed her appreciation to the
citizens that came to the two Town Meetings she held as
well as attending the meeting tonight. The information
they brought to her attention was well received and she
plans to address each and every item and get back with
them. She suggested they keep an eye out in the newspaper.
Councilwoman Rogers commented on being a member of the MPO
Board and being quite busy. They have a couple of
representatives, Evelyn Lynn that had a tax meeting on
th
February 28 and Marcia Bowen in the Senate, who has a bill
right now with some suggestions regarding the property tax
crisis. There are over 100 ideas they are looking at right
now. They are meeting this week. She sent an e-mail and
put her two cents in. She did not address the property tax
issues for business or industrial. She hit upon all
residential properties. She put it out there because they
are looking at all suggestions. She feels they should not
be paying property taxes based upon a property value. The
Federal Government, when we are taxed we are taxed
according to our taxable income. The more you make, the
more you pay in taxes. As far as the property values go,
we are being taxed the same way. The more the property is
worth, the more you pay in taxes. Property taxes are
generated so there is a revenue source to pay for the
services they receive. She feels they should pay property
taxes according to family size, which would make it a
little bit more equivalent. She also made a suggestion that
they need to look at in some areas they have a lot of
residents that may live in unincorporated Volusia County
that come to the meetings as well as those that live within
the City limits. Both residents are receiving services.
Page 12 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
She feels this needs to be looked at. She feels they need
to look in the future to a consolidation of services
because she feels they are paying some duplication.
Councilwoman Rogers then referred to the TRIM notice. The
tax breakdown goes to various entities. She feels they
have to look at all of that, not just one particular area.
Councilwoman Rogers then commented on property insurance.
The insurance crisis they have isn’t just property
insurance. It is automobile and boat insurance. She wants
the legislature to look at the whole package. She
mentioned health insurance being a separate issue.
Councilwoman Rogers then commented on already looking into
some of the items that were brought up at the Town
Meetings. She stated when the animal shelter was initially
put on the ballot it was put on the ballot as a
rescue/adoption/educational facility. They aren’t hearing
about it anymore being dubbed as an educational facility.
As far as the educational facility, that was one of the
things the voters were lead to believe it would be and it
is not. She referred to the Ordinance in 2004 that
specifically states the City Council studied and researched
that item before it was put on the ballot. She has asked
if there was a formalized bid put out and there was not and
they don’t have a record of one. She spoke of this being
discussed at the Town Meeting.
Councilman Vincenzi commented on a good editorial in the
News Journal today from Pamela Hasterok. She talked about
the tax proposals that are out there and said something to
the effect that if you don’t want to pay property taxes,
you should take a look around and do a reality check first.
All of these proposals sound very nice. Everything comes
at a price. If they don’t pay the City for the services
they get, they will be paying someone else. Some of the
proposals are drastic and some are not so drastic. There
are a lot of them out there and they just have to wait for
all of the ideas to surface. If some of the more drastic
proposals are put on the ballot and voted in, there are
going to be drastic changes not only in Edgewater but in
every city in Florida. One of the big effects mentioned by
Mr. Heeb earlier is right now Florida is an attractive
place to live and the housing and building industry, even
though it is slow right now has been active with baby
boomers and retirees moving to this State. If they take
Page 13 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
away property taxes it is going to look very attractive for
everybody. He spoke of seeing growth on an unbelievable
scale come to this State. He spoke of people looking at
the short term and not the overall effects of what life is
going to be like when these things do take effect. When
these proposals do come out, everybody that is a voter
needs to be very careful and think about what they are
voting for.
Councilwoman Rhodes agreed with Councilman Vincenzi. At
some point they are going to pay for services. Whether you
pay for it in property taxes, through your water bill or
sales tax, whatever tax money is taken away from the City
in order to provide services is going to have to be made up
somewhere in some way. They need to be careful and see how
all this shakes out and then they can address it more
intelligently.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated she and City Manager Williams
had a long discussion today regarding the debt the City is
in. She asked City Manager Williams to explain the debt to
the public the way he explained it to her.
City Manager Williams stated when you look at it from a
proportional relationship in terms of which fund incurs the
most debt, the most debt that is on the book is a result of
the Water & Sewer Fund, which specifically ties to capital
improvement projects relating to the Wastewater facility
back in the 1980’s and 1990. Florida Shores and a majority
of the City was served by septic tanks. The State of
Florida came in and said the leaching from the septic tanks
is affecting the Indian River, requiring the City to build
an Advanced Wastewater Treatment Facility. If they didn’t,
the State was going to issue a moratorium on the issuance
of building permits. The City went out and incurred a
bunch of debt to build an Advanced Wastewater Treatment
Facility as well as related infrastructure. At that same
time they incurred capital improvement project for the
Water Facility. Along those same lines, they incurred
additional debt to upgrade that facility as well. Another
large portion of the debt is the result of road
infrastructure throughout Florida Shores, which were
previously shell roads. The City took action and paved
those roads. Another capital improvement project, hence
more debt. Prior to the issuance of these capital
improvement projects, Edgewater was very affordable to
purchase a home and still is affordable today. He spoke of
Page 14 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
experiencing a tremendous amount of appreciation in home
value as a result of those capital improvement projects. By
incurring that debt and paying it over the amortization of
the life of that loan, everybody has received a very
wonderful value.
Councilwoman Rhodes spoke of living on a dirt road in
Florida Shores before they were paved and having a septic
tank. As being one of those people that lived here at that
time, she is happy with that debt and doesn’t mind paying
it.
Mayor Thomas thanked Councilwoman Rogers for having her
Town Hall meetings and commented on the whole Council all
sharing the load. He spoke of the boards the other
Councilmembers serve on. He briefly commented on the
meetings he attended last month.
Mayor Thomas commented on speaking about the Library, the
Animal Shelter, the Shuffleboard Courts and the debt daily
as well as other problems. There is no easy solution.
Mayor Thomas further commented on the Animal Shelter and
the voters approving the $500,000 in 2002 for the Animal
Shelter.
Mayor Thomas then commented about not being against the
Shuffleboard Courts and being an avid shuffleboard player.
Mayor Thomas then spoke about the property taxes. He has
been to three meetings and a seminar on the property tax
reform and what they are trying to do is a quick fix
bandaid over this thing. If you don’t think you are going
to pay the same thing. You are going to be paying the same
thing. We have to have roads, we have to have police, we
have to have fire, we’ve got to have drainage. We’ve got
to have that. All they are going to do is shift the
burden. When they shift the burden, they aren’t going to
give the cities the opportunity to spend it where they want
to. The State is going to tell them where to spend it. He
spoke of not being able to compare small cities with larger
cities. They are going to shift the burden and make the
cities the bad guy. He would like to see Home Rule. The
County tried to shove those seven Charter amendments down
their throats on the last ballot and they wooped them
because of Home Rule. He guaranteed they are working on
these things daily.
Page 15 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
6. CONSENT AGENDA
A.Law Enforcement Trust Funds – staff recommending
approval to use “Funds” in the amount of
$9,962.50 to purchase and install a security
system for the Whistle Stop sub-station
B.Edward Byrne Memorial Justice Assistance Grant –
staff recommending acceptance of the “Grant” in
the amount of $4,839.00 to purchase various items
totaling $4,851.52 and authorize the use of Law
Enforcement Trust Funds in the amount of $12.52
to pay the difference
C.East Volusia Mosquito Control District – staff
recommending approval of an annual request to
perform low level flights over the City of
Edgewater and authorize the Mayor or City Manager
to execute the document
Councilwoman Lichter moved to approve the Consent Agenda,
second by Councilwoman Rhodes
.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0
.
7. PUBLIC HEARINGS, ORDINANCES AND RESOLUTIONS
A. Mike Horber, owner of No Name Saloon, 2001 S.
Ridgewood Avenue, requesting a Special Activity
Permit for a Living Legends Concert in
association with Powell Productions and the
American Legion Post 285 events with outdoor
music to be held March 24, 2007, with a rain date
of March 25. Mr. Horber requests the City waive
the permit fee and all other associated charges,
i.e. Police/Code Compliance Officer fees
Development Services Director Darren Lear made a staff
presentation.
Mike Horber
, No Name Saloon, made a presentation regarding
the charitable event he was going to be having and
requested the fees be waived.
Mayor Thomas opened the public hearing.
Page 16 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Councilwoman Lichter stated in the past they have had this
kind of charity benefit but she didn’t remember if they
waived Police, Fire & Code Enforcement fees. It was
confirmed that they had not.
Mayor Thomas stated he spoke to Police Chief Taves the
other day and he said if there is going to be 600 people
they are going to have to treat it the same and are going
to need some extra staffing. He was unsure about waiving
the Police fees and the Code Compliance fees. He
questioned them doing this for the Cancer Society and
suggested taking that out. He asked Mr. Horber if he could
do that. Mr. Horber informed him he could, it would just
reduce the benefit they are able to provide.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on the problem being there
is more than one allowed in the course of a year and there
are several places that ask for this kind of thing. They
have not set that precedent before. She asked if they paid
the fees for Police and Code Officers in the past. Mr.
Lear didn’t recall waiving those fees but thought they
might have waived the permit fee. Councilwoman Lichter
asked how much the permit is. Mr. Lear informed her $300.
Councilman Vincenzi also thought they may have waived the
permit fee in the past but he didn’t think it was right to
waive any other expenses as a result of extra fire and
police that are needed because the taxpayers are paying for
those services. If more police are needed to control
crowds or traffic, he didn’t feel it was fair for the
taxpayers to soak up the burden.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked the actual cost of processing the
permit. Mr. Lear stated he would have to check the
advertising fees and associated costs. He didn’t know off
the top of his head.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated her recommendation would be to
reimburse the City because those are tax dollars. While
this is a worthy cause and she didn’t have a problem with
that, everybody has their own charity and every taxpayer is
entitled to give their charitable dollars where they want
to. She didn’t think she had the right to make that
decision for them. If the fee can be reduced by the actual
cost of what it costs the City to process the permit, she
would not be against that. She doesn’t want to see any
taxpayer dollars paid for this event.
Page 17 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Thomas Coe
, Post Commander, American Legion Post 285, 11
Las Palmas Drive, stated one in four people today will get
cancer. He is a cancer survivor. He spoke of a
conversation he had with Russell Powell, Veterans Affairs
Officer in New Smyrna Beach. They are trying to put
something together to add to a scholarship for the
education of the nurses in a Cancer Research Center in
Tampa. He spoke of trying to give back to the community on
a regular basis and asked that the City consider waiving
certain fees. The American Legion, even though they are a
non profit organization, are prepared to take out of the
American Legion Post Trust Fund any fees that would be
necessary. He spoke of meeting with the Jr. Vice President
of WalMart, who said it was a noble contribution to people
in research. WalMart has agreed to match what they do
raise. If the City could help them, they would appreciate
that also.
The following citizen spoke:
Carol Ann Stoughton
, 2740 Evergreen Drive, stated a month
and a half ago many of the Council voted for giving to ACT
$11,000. She is also a cancer survivor. She felt it would
be a disgrace if the City said no. She thanked the
American Legion for doing this.
Councilman Vincenzi stated it isn’t a matter of saying no.
It is a matter of how they use taxpayer dollars and can
they find the money to do it. He asked if anybody knew how
much it cost to have police and whatnot at an event. Mr.
Lear informed him it was $31.60 per hour for Police and
Code Officers. Councilman Vincenzi asked about the total
figure. Mr. Lear informed him they don’t know until the
event is over.
City Manager Williams stated the situation would dictate
it. He commented on typically what happens. After the
event they compile the hours and do the invoice.
Councilwoman Lichter asked how much it costs for bike Week.
Councilman Vincenzi asked if it is under $2,000 is there
any money left that they set aside for charities and non-
profit requests. City Manager Williams stated they have
additional moneys that came out of the RCC budget this year
that were returned to the City. They are also targeting
Page 18 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
some of those funds here tonight for some of the items they
have listed and that was a return of about $80,000. There
is some excess money in some accounts should the Council
desire to waive these fees. Councilwoman Vincenzi doesn’t
want to set a precedent but if it is going to cost $1,500
for police officers can they find $1,500.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated that is the problem. When you do
it for here you have to do it across the board. You can’t
pick and choose. What may be important to her charity wise
may not be important to someone else. Councilman Vincenzi
stated they have had requests for money before and some
they have had money for and some they haven’t. They have
approved some and not approved others.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated they aren’t requesting charity
money and they don’t have that anymore and had to cut it
out of the budget because the City doesn’t have any money.
City Manager Williams estimated the cost at $450 for police
officers. They would also have Code Compliance as well.
Councilman Vincenzi estimated it would be under $1,000.
Councilwoman Rogers stated they do have to make decisions
based upon they are the stewards that are spending the
citizens money. She didn’t vote for the $12,000 for ACT
because she didn’t see any statistics that showed that it
would directly benefit the city in any way. She is sure
there are individuals in the City that did receive some
assistance through ACT. This is a totally different thing.
She wondered how many people that do not live in the City
limits and would need a place to stay. She spoke of
bringing income into the City, which she is definitely for.
She was sure some of the employees of the No Name are
residents of the City and will get paid well for doing
this. She is for this. If they could find $12,000, they
can find $450 or $1,000 or $1,500.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on making donations to
various organizations personally. She is for waiving the
$300. She has a bit of concern because all of the projects
that come under this heading have been more than
worthwhile. She would rather buy the ticket and will than
say that she thinks they should give to one over another.
She would like to waive the permit fee and not the services
of our officers.
Page 19 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Mayor Thomas agreed with Councilwoman Rhodes and
Councilwoman Lichter regarding are they going to be able to
turn their head again. They are tightening their belts
already. They had a meeting last week about restructuring
and cutting people’s benefits and this sort of thing. He
would be for waiving the permit fees. They are taking away
from the taxpayers again. He didn’t know how much more
they could tighten. They have meetings on this every day.
Mr. Coe stated if the City would consider waiving the
permit fee, he personally would absorb the cost of the law
enforcement and traffic control in the interest of reverity
and getting on with their lives.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked Mr. Horber what his contribution
is. Mr. Horber stated all net proceeds would be going over
to the foundation. Councilwoman Rogers stated and they are
looking to award $5,000 scholarships.
Mayor Thomas entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Lichter made a motion that for this particular
event at the No Name that all the conditions be followed
and that the City waive the $300 permit fee, second by
Councilwoman Rhodes
.
The MOTION CARRIED 4-1. Councilman Vincenzi voted NO
because he felt the City should be giving more
.
Mayor Thomas called a ten-minute recess at this time. The
meeting recessed at 8:15 and reconvened at 8:25 p.m.
B. Public Hearing, LEO Developers, Inc. requesting
Final Plat approval for a 21-unit single-family
residence subdivision to be known as Pinehurst
Subdivision located east of U.S. #1, south of
Canal Road
Development Services Director Lear made a staff
presentation.
Mayor Thomas asked the applicant to come forward.
Ed Grant
, 873 Hewitt Drive, Port Orange, stated Mr. Scott
got sick and had to leave so he was available to answer any
questions.
Page 20 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Mayor Thomas asked for Council comment.
Mayor Thomas reported on visiting the property today with
City Manager Williams and Development Services Director
Lear. He was very impressed. There were scrub oaks on the
property so that told him it was very high and very dry.
It looked good.
Due to there being no comments, Mayor Thomas opened and
closed the public hearing and entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Rhodes moved to approve the final plat of
Pinehurst with the condition that prior to recording final
plat all City staff comments are satisfactorily addressed
and a bond/surety device for al infrastructure is accepted
by the City, second by Councilwoman Lichter
.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0.
C. Public Hearing, Daniel Johns requesting
Preliminary Plat approval for a 69-unit single-
family residence subdivision to be known as
Woodbridge Lakes located south of Roberts Road,
between Indian River Elementary School and San
Remo
Development Services Director Lear made a staff
presentation.
Don Simms
, Developer, Woodbridge Lakes, read a prepared
statement with regard to the important aspects of their
proposed new community. He was available to answer the
easy questions and had his engineer, Daniel Johns, with him
to answer the hard ones.
Mayor Thomas reported on visiting the property today with
City Manager Williams and Development Services Director
Lear. He was pleased to see it was white sand and pine
trees. He could tell by the vegetation it was high and
dry. He was pleased to see the property was very clean.
He stated you could tell Mr. Simms really cares about that
land.
Councilwoman Lichter had a question about the road. It was
in a different place on two different maps. Mr. Simms
explained what happened. Councilwoman Lichter asked if
there was any thought for another way out. Mr. Simms
Page 21 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
didn’t feel there would be that much traffic out of there
due to only having 69 lots.
Councilwoman Lichter asked Mr. Simms if he was doing work
on Roberts Road itself. Mr. Simms explained when Mosquito
Control cleared the ditch that runs along the west property
line, there was debris piled ten or twelve feet high in
some places. When he called they told him most of the
people are happy the ditch got cleaned. He couldn’t let
that happen because it was blocking his drainage into the
canal, which could have been a disaster. He hired his
people at a cost of $17,000 to go in and grade it all off,
load it up and haul it out of there. He also spoke of
letting six property owners in San Remo cut through his
property to do swimming pools, patios and porches so they
didn’t have to tear up their yards, they were able to go
through his property. He further commented on some trouble
he had gotten in with Code Enforcement once.
Mr. Lear informed Councilwoman Lichter on the western side
of Lot 2 there is a fifteen-foot wide emergency access
easement.
Councilman Vincenzi stated this looks like a very nice
subdivision. He asked if they would be having sidewalks.
Mr. Simms listed what is included in the project.
Councilman Vincenzi then commented on the negativity they
have heard about 75-foot lots and every lot in this project
being 75 feet. He asked Mr. Simms how he could make a
profit and offer all the amenities. He felt it was a great
plan.
Mayor Thomas opened the public hearing.
The following citizens spoke:
Dot Carlson
, 1714 Edgewater Drive, asked that Council
discuss with the developer and all developers in common
areas to try to do xeriscaping.
Councilwoman Lichter stated Deborah Green from the Water
Authority could certainly help with that type of thing.
Carol Ann Stoughton
, 2740 Evergreen Drive, stated that is a
beautiful piece of property there. She commented on when
school opens and lets out. She hopes they consider the
Page 22 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
road and if they are going to be left with the fact that
the City is going to have to widen the road there. The
people from meadow Lakes can just about get out of their
development. They must consider the road there. She
didn’t know who was going to pay for that because
eventually it is going to have to be widened.
Mike Visconti
, 316 Pine Breeze Drive, stated he lives in
Meadow Lake. He wanted to make sure the change was made to
the entranceway. Councilwoman Rhodes informed him yes.
Dominic Capria
, 606 Topside Circle, stated Mr. Simms
mentioned a fishing dock. He didn’t see any water there.
If he is talking about a fishing dock over the retention
pond, that is illegal. Councilman Vincenzi pointed it out
on a map. Mr. Capria stated that is what it looks like to
him anyway.
Mr. Capria asked how much the homes are going to cost.
Councilwoman Rhodes informed him it is none of their
business.
Mr. Capria then asked if the development is paying for the
streetlights or does it go to the City. He comes from a
subdivision where they pay for it. The City doesn’t.
Mayor Thomas stated they aren’t paying for it. Councilman
Vincenzi stated the City doesn’t typically pay for new
roads or streetlights when a development comes in any more.
Mr. Capria asked if there would be a gated community. Mr.
Lear informed him it is not gated.
Mr. Visconti asked if Roberts Road was supposed to be
widened and if this would take place before the widening of
Roberts Road or after. Councilwoman Rogers who serves on
the MPO wasn’t aware of Roberts Road being widened.
Sidewalks are going near there. Mayor Thomas stated he
follows the MPO and he hasn’t seen anything in the
immediately future of widening Roberts Road.
Mr. Lear commented on some preliminary studies that were
done about the possibility of widening Roberts Road to
three lanes. That has never gone anywhere up to this
point. It is not in the Capital Improvement plan. Right
now there are no solid plans for that.
Page 23 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
City Manager Williams stated they just passed a concurrency
ordinance addressing roads and certainly they are going to
have to do some traffic studies to determine level of
service. Councilwoman Rhodes stated that can come from
road impact fees.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if that is totally a City road.
Mr. Lear informed her it was.
Mr. Simms agreed at the Planning & Zoning Board to pay for
the streetlights. One of the requirements of the Planning
& Zoning Board was for him to run a sidewalk the entire
length of his property at his cost, which he agreed to do.
Mr. Simms complimented Mr. Lear and Bonnie Wenzel who have
always tried to be helpful in trying to guide him. He
didn’t always like what they said but at least they were
trying to guide him the right way.
Mayor Thomas closed the public hearing and entertained a
motion.
Councilman Vincenzi moved to approve the preliminary plat
for Woodbridge Lakes Subdivision, second by Councilwoman
Rogers
.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0
.
D. Public Hearing, Edgewater Harbor, LLC requesting
Amendment No. 2 to the Planned Unit Development
Agreement (PUD) for Edgewater Harbor
City Manager Williams made a staff presentation by going
over the outstanding issues addressed in Amendment #2.
Staff recommended approval of the second amendment.
Kevin Donaghy
, on behalf of Edgewater Harbor, stated there
were some major issues discussed at the last meeting and he
complimented City staff on their willingness to work with
them. They felt they had some real wide gaps to cover but
they came out of the meeting being reasonably happy about
agreeing to pay up to $20,000 per month for the boat slips
and they are excited about moving forward with that as the
cornerstone of their project.
Mayor Thomas asked for Council comment.
Page 24 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Councilwoman Rogers commented on when the project was
presented to the City and the first RFP was going to be
condos. The selling point was the $500,000 estimate in
property tax revenue that the City was going to receive.
There were other developers that presented developments to
the City but this one won over those developments because
of the revenues. That didn’t happen and then last year
they received the second change. The story that was told
was they were going to go from an eight-story condo to
townhouses due to the cost of construction and financing of
condos. The City gave this gentleman an extension and
allowed him to change the plan. In doing so she made a
statement that if this was not done within the specified
period of time that this development would then have to be
built according to the current land use codes or at least
the land use codes they were working with. Here they are
strike two. It has not happened and now the gentleman is
coming back and he is wanting the Council to discount on
the boat slips. From the revenue figure that was given to
her by City Manager Williams, with the $1.50 per foot per
length of boat slips, they are looking at revenue in the
amount of $230,000 per year. New Smyrna is looking at
selling a wet slip starting at about $385,000. When she
reads that and they are looking at getting $230,000 per
year per boat slip, she has to stop. This gentleman
received this property, prime waterfront with the largest
amount of boat slips in the City for $3 million and they
haven’t gotten anything so far. A lot of time has been
spent and they have received nothing and now he wants a
three-year extension of the time to build something. The
whole reason they put it out for RFP was to try to find
somebody that was going to bring revenue to the City and
bring all of these wonderful things. It didn’t happen.
She feels it didn’t happen the first time, it didn’t happen
the second time, it’s not going to happen the third time.
She feels they need to look back at the duration of their
agreement they did last time and it specifically says the
developer’s failure to initiate construction within the
time frame identified herein may result in the City’s
termination of this agreement. She feels right now that is
what they need to do. It hasn’t happened and the City
doesn’t have the money and they need to go forward. If
they give him these amendments, they have no remedy if
these things don’t happen. They will be right back where
they are at now or in a court situation. She feels the
agreement has been breached.
Page 25 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Mr. Donaghy disagreed with Councilwoman Rogers. He
mentioned there being a number of reasons why the original
project did not go up. The developer did not enjoy
returning $8 million in deposits when it became fiscally
irresponsible to try and put up the original project.
Prices raised too quickly, the impact the hurricanes had on
raw materials and the insurance and labor pool, etc. They
came in last year. They did get an amendment. This is
still a condominium project and they still believe it will
have a very positive impact on the City’s revenues. They
moved forward last year and spent another $1 million.
Their plans were submitted to the City in November. They
had some issues with the City that they debated at length
last time. They were asked to come to a resolution. The
boat slips being $380,000 was news to him. Councilwoman
Rogers stated the dry slips are starting in the $180,000
range. She informed Mr. Donaghy they didn’t have a lot of
time tonight and it does say the developer’s failure to
initiate construction. What is more plain than that?
Mr. Donaghy informed Councilwoman Rogers he understood what
was in the agreement but there was a significant issue as
to whether or not they were awarded the boat slips and it
was their sincere position that those were awarded to them
in the original PUD agreement. There was never any
discussion until during this past year about payment for
the boat slips. They met in good faith with staff and
agreed to pay $1.50 per foot, which will come out if they
are successful to about $240,000 per year to the City,
which he feels is a significant concession. They want to
start this project as soon as they can. The extension is
needed to do the sales, the banking and the financing.
Councilwoman Rogers stated that price is a drop in the
bucket compared to what it could and should be. She feels
the city has been beyond a good neighbor and in some cases
a decision made back then was almost blind to give the man
the property for $3 million. The City didn’t even have the
property for thirty minutes. The City has lost a wonderful
opportunity and the tax revenue that they definitely would
have had by now. With the situation they are facing, this
certainly would have helped. Three more years, you have
got to be kidding me. Please. Three more years. Don’t
insult us.
Councilwoman Lichter feels this is an opportunity to
recoup. She doesn’t see it like Councilwoman Rogers. We
Page 26 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
have a new capable lawyer, who they asked to negotiate this
agreement. She doesn’t know how long City Attorney Ansay
spent in conference with these people to work out a deal
that in the end isn’t quite what everybody would like. The
way the building slump is right now things are not what
they were when this process started. These people have
invested $8.5 million. They are sitting here again trying
to save a project and work with the City. She feels City
Attorney Ansay is the negotiator, not the five of them.
She is going to go along with City Attorney Ansay’s
recommendation.
Mr. Donaghy stated this is not an isolated incident. He
commented on the market being difficult right now. They
asked City Manager Williams how many building permits the
City issued this year. City Manager Williams informed him
in the first quarter they issued five. Mr. Donaghy stated
five. They want to build it as soon as they can.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked City Attorney Ansay if they say
no to this and forget the court and them suing us, what
happens if this agreement is terminated by the City. They
have to have some sort of agreement, some sort of zoning.
City Attorney Ansay stated the agreement they have in place
right now for the property to the degree it is terminated
leaves the property in an RPUD zoning classification with
no agreement in place. At that point in time it would
become incumbent on the applicant to rezone the property
out of RPUD classification to try to achieve some sort of
other development through straight zoning processes or
attempt to negotiate another PUD agreement. They are in a
position where those are really the options. Obviously
that is not going to happen because they probably will be
involved in some litigation in the interim. The details
and the way this has all evolved probably couldn’t have
been foreseen when the RFP was originally put out and the
contracts entered into because at that time the market was
a much different place. She has had questions along the
lines of getting the property back. There isn’t anything
they can do because the City conveyed the property. Other
than this development agreement, there are no contractual
assurances to the City that the developer does anything on
this property to meet the needs of the City via the RFP.
This PUD agreement is essentially where the terms of that
whole process came to bear.
Page 27 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Councilwoman Rhodes stated if they terminate this agreement
1) they spend money on legal fees and 2) at some point
there is going to have to be some agreement. Barring no
agreement, that land lies fallow. She thinks they are
better served by at least attempting to make this happen.
If it doesn’t happen, he will never get another agreement
out of her. She agreed with Councilwoman Rogers to a
point. She feels this has gone on far too long. He didn’t
do what he said he was going to do. But she does
understand the way the market is now and that it is in the
City’s and the developer’s best interest to get some
development on that property. In the interest of doing
that, she would vote for this.
Councilman Vincenzi stated like many things it’s not the
ideal solution but it is a solution. He thinks this
project has dragged on too long. He feels there should be
something in there that says this is a last chance effort.
If it doesn’t succeed this time, go back to the drawing
board with nothing guaranteed on either side and go back to
negotiating a new agreement for that piece of property.
Mr. Donaghy stated if they don’t live up to it the City
would have the right to pull back the boat slips. If the
PUD would expire, they would have no guarantee of ever
being able to get the boat slips.
Councilwoman Rogers pointed out that City Attorney Ansay
said there are no contractual assurances. City Attorney
Ansay stated what she said was when they originally put
together the first RPUD project there was no contractual
assurances that what they wanted via the RFP was going to
be done exactly as set forth in the response submitted by
them in the time frame submitted by them except what’s in
there. They don’t have any separate other agreement
allowing them to pull back the property. If the date has
changed and says three years and they get three years from
now they still have the phrase that says if the developer
doesn’t complete within the time frame required the
agreement can be terminated, which puts them in the
position they are in today.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated she thought three years from now
they wouldn’t have the litigation issue they might have
today. It’s one thing to go to the court and say we have
done everything the City can do and bent over backwards to
help this man with this development and it is another thing
right now there are some issues on the table. There might
Page 28 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
be some City liability in this. That would be for a judge
to decide. But three years from now you eliminate that.
Mr. Donaghy stated there were a number of issues that were
resolved.
City Attorney Ansay stated they came to the table with the
developer presenting a lot of allegations that the City was
in part responsible for the delay such as the issue of
fighting over the impact fees, the issue of site plan
approval. She feels clearly the position they are in today
with those allegations being present is a much weaker
position then they would be in if in three years from now
it wasn’t completed. Right now their position would be, if
this were to all blow up, that the City was in large part
responsible for the delay. That would be something a judge
or someone else would have to decide.
Councilman Vincenzi again stated he didn’t think it was a
great solution but it was a solution and hopefully it will
jump start this thing and get it going.
Mayor Thomas commented on meeting with City Manager
Williams where they discussed the terms of the agreement.
He asked how many boat slips they were getting. City
Attorney Ansay stated in the event all the relevant
regulatory authorities permit them there would be 30 water-
wet slips and up to 300 dry slips. Mayor Thomas stated the
City only has 410. He asked City Manager Williams what the
best solution would be for the citizens of Edgewater. He
informed him this is the best agreement they could come up
with but if they approve this agreement he would like to
add a stipulation of a time limit.
Mayor Thomas opened the public hearing.
The following citizens spoke:
Carol Ann Stoughton
, 2740 Evergreen Drive, asked how much
money they owe us presently that we have failed to collect.
She can see them going forward if they pay up what they
haven’t paid in the first place. You people have spent so
much time. Other people have to come in and lay out money.
These people haven’t. Why hasn’t the Council looked into
that money? Get it now. Get it up front and then they can
go forward. Is it $2 million they owe us? She feels they
should collect the money before they allow them to go on
Page 29 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
for another three years. They have already had two years.
Let’s collect the money. They could use $2 million.
Mike Visconti
, 316 Pine Breeze Drive, asked if the City is
going to benefit or lose by this? If the City benefits by
it, why is it taking so long to have this developer start
developing this project. You get impact fees, you get tax
revenues. Does the City benefit or don’t they?
Councilwoman Lichter commented on the developer changing
the plan. She mentioned the money and time it cost.
Mr. Visconti stated the developer is taking the gamble. He
is the one spending all the money. He is the one gambling
to sell these units. Where does the City lose?
Ferd Heeb
, 115 N. Riverside Drive, stated he has opposed
the development of this property since day one when the
County owned it. He strongly recommended it be retained as
a park to give all the present and future residents access
to the riverfront. Tim Howard was the first one to try to
acquire this property from the County and develop the
property. The City and Boston Whaler opposed it. The
County turned it down. The City then orchestrated the deal
to buy this property and sell it to the developer of choice
based on RFP’s. Based on these people’s RFP the Council
awarded them the ability to buy that property for $3.2
million. That is less than $50,000 per acre for prime,
waterfront property and possibly the last large parcel on
the riverfront. This is the third time they have renigged
on contracts. They admitted they renigged on contracts
with the first buyers and refunded $8 million in deposits.
They renigged on the original proposal and the City granted
them a change, which he though was insanity at the time,
and now they are back at the table looking for an
additional. In addition, they come back and tell the City
they have 90% of the available boat slips that are
available to the citizens now and in the future. This is
insanity. Turn them down and go back to the drawing board
or get something from them in return for what they are
asking for. Paying for the use of the boat slips is not
enough. He has strongly recommended that they get them to
give us the south 200 feet for boat ramps and parking for
boats for the residents of Edgewater. Give us the 200
feet, and give them the three years. If they don’t want to
do anything more, turn them down.
Page 30 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Councilwoman Rhodes asked if they would give the city the
200 feet. They informed her no.
Pat Card
, 3019 Willow Oak Drive, disclosed he had talked to
a number of the Council already. He stated he stood up
there and opposed the extension the last time. He is
standing there to oppose the extension again tonight. He
is sorry that this individual has had so many problems
moving forward with this project. The original project
would have generated a great deal of money and tax for the
City as he described it. He really would like to see the
Council simply say you haven’t done your part, I’m sorry
and turn it down.
Dave Ross
, 2803 Needle Palm Drive, stated there are going
to be three of them that make this decision. The question
before them really is are you happy with what is going to
happen and the benefits that the City of Edgewater are
going to receive with the agreement they have. Is this the
best that Edgewater can do with that piece of property? If
it is not the best, then terminate the agreement and
negotiate a new agreement with this owner or a new owner
that he may sell to to cover his property. He didn’t think
there would be any problem getting $8 million off of that
piece of property today and he feels he knows that. He
urged the Council to make their decision not on the market
today. Is this the best deal for the City or is there
something better out there that they can negotiate with
somebody if not this gentleman. Make your decision on what
is best for Edgewater, not what is best for the developer.
Hawk McMillan
, developer, Edgewater Harbor, thanked City
Manager Williams, City Attorney Ansay and Paralegal Robin
Matusick. They really did work hard. He kept his word and
they never did raise their voices.
Mr. McMillan felt Councilwoman Rogers was very wrong. He
has spent a lot of money and is the one that got the
Manatee Protection Plan and paid for that.
Councilwoman Rogers asked Mr. McMillan how much it cost him
to put up the seawall. Mr. McMillan informed her he didn’t
put up the seawall. Councilwoman Rogers asked what he did
with the property that made his out-of-pocket fees be $8.5
million when he roughly paid $3.2 million. Mr. McMillan
stated they spent about $1.5 million doing the plans for
the eight-story buildings and they spent engineering fees
Page 31 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
to do the engineering for the eight-story buildings because
that is totally different engineering than you would do for
townhouses. They had to clean up the site. They have had
a lot of legal work done and that is what he spent. Mr.
McMillan stated if they do this and go forward, they are
going to review his plan. He is going to pay for the
review and then to go forward he has to pay the impact fees
for the 142 units. He doesn’t think the Council has any
idea what it is like in the lending world today.
Councilwoman Rogers informed him she did. Mr. McMillan
asked her if she has borrowed $8 million before.
Councilwoman Rogers stated for Mr. McMillan to get up and
look straight at her and tell her she is wrong, she
suggested they remember she is here to represent the
people, not the developer. She doesn’t feel sorry for what
he has spent and what he has gone through. She is here for
the citizens.
Mr. McMillan stated he hopes they go forward. He is
prepared to personally borrow the money to pay the impact
fees at a very high rate of interest. If they don’t go
forward, it will be land banked, he will sue the City and
he will sell the land just as the land is underneath the
PUD agreement and zoning that is there. He feels the way
he feels about the boat slips and about the way they
submitted. He doesn’t want to do it. He wants to go
forward and build this project.
Councilwoman Rogers asked Mr. McMillan who pushed forward
the extension last time. Mr. McMillan stated he did
remember and he brought in his plan in November and he was
prepared to go forward then. He had a bank loan. He
couldn’t get his plan review. Some way or another, his
bank was told that he owed the City $2.6 million. He
doesn’t owe the City $2.6 million and they refused to fund
the remaining of the loan. That is what pushed them here.
Now he has to go back and redo everything. He hopes they
go forward.
Councilwoman Rogers asked if he was willing to reduce the
time frame from three years to a year. Mr. McMillan
informed her she was asking him if he was willing to go
bankrupt. No, he is not. Councilwoman Rogers informed him
that wasn’t what she asked. Mr. McMillan informed her she
doesn’t understand the situation. Councilwoman Rogers
stated she wasn’t there to argue, she just asked a
Page 32 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
question. Mr. McMillan informed her he really didn’t want
litigation but he feels after doing a whole lot of work
that he has a great point to litigate on.
Councilman Vincenzi asked City Attorney Ansay what the
ramifications would be if they didn’t approve this, what
would happen and what will it cost the City. City Attorney
Ansay informed him they have a date in the current draft
agreement that requires construction to commence early next
month. If construction does not commence, which obviously
it will not, by that date then the City is in a position
where it can terminate the agreement. At that point in
time, it is her understanding they would probably be served
with a lawsuit by the developer. Councilman Vincenzi asked
on what basis. City Attorney Ansay informed him on the
basis, she thought, based on what they have told her, based
on the fact that they would claim that any delay in the
agreement was delayed on the part of the City and that they
were not able to move forward because they submitted back
in November and since then these issues have been in
dispute. She thought at that point it would be up to a
court to sort it all through. She felt at the end of the
day they are still finding themselves in a position where
they have somebody who owns a piece of property that the
City once owned but owns no longer which puts him in the
position of owning that property and then having to decide
whether to sell it, which would become someone else’s issue
from the standpoint of deciding what ultimately happens or
if they go back to the drawing board and attempt to
restructure a new deal, which is usually difficult to do
and then the same two parties are in court litigation over
the project. She wasn’t sure what the claims would be but
she guessed they would try to hit the City with the burden
of the failure to comply with the timeframe.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked if they sue the City and win, the
court would force the City to adhere to this original RPUD?
If they lose the lawsuit, what is a judge going to do to
them? City Attorney Ansay speculated and stated if she
were them she thinks their homerun would be they would
argue that they should be able to proceed with the
development or they should be entitled to damages from a
financial standpoint that the developer feels he has
incurred as a result of the delay. Whether a judge would
actually give them that, they would have a lot of very good
arguments, which they do, that the delays they are alleging
are not all borne by the City. She thinks they all
Page 33 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
understand the real delay is the market. If you can’t get
people to buy condos, you can’t get money in terms of
deposits. If he can’t get money in terms of deposits, he
can’t get a bank to loan him the money he needs to do the
project. At the end of the day, she feels the City has
that as their argument. The City didn’t cause the delay,
the market did. What a judge does is always out of their
control.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated she was just wondering when all
is said and done and it is all over what their obligation
is going to be as far as zoning this land and do they at
that point have to renegotiate a new RPUD assuming he comes
to them. City Attorney Ansay stated exactly. One of the
big things that exists here as well is there is also a
height issue now that is a predicament for them as well as
the City. This is one of the projects that was attached to
the ordinance that the former City Attorney prepared as a
grandfathered project because of the existing PUD
agreement. With this PUD agreement terminating, this
causes a lot of issues for the property in the future.
Councilwoman Rogers stated City Attorney Ansay had made
mention initially that two of the conditions the developer
could sue us on would be his alleged claim about the delay
because of the impact fee issue and because of the site
plan approval. She understood the site plan is now in the
City and is being reviewed. What he is asking for is an
amendment. If they gave him an extension, of let’s say six
months to do what he initially proposed to do, then he
can’t come back and sue us for those two things. If he is
saying the City delayed him, delayed him for how long?
Just give him an extension for that period of time and let
it run its course and then he would have no grounds to sue
them because they are still working under the agreement
that they did last year and they are giving him an
extension for those things that he is alleging the City has
done. City Attorney Ansay felt clearly one position could
be that if the site plan was submitted back in November,
figure out what purported time they have arguably caused
any delay and extend it that time period. She thought the
other things the City Manager attempted to resolve with the
amendment with the developer also had to do with the impact
fee issue as well as the use of the slips. The original
PUD agreement provided an allocation of boat slips. There
was no mention of any fee. At the end of the day, if she
had to bet her money, she would bet her money on them
Page 34 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
winning that issue in court. That was an issue that they
in exchange for the time period tried to give to balance
the equities a little bit. She felt the agreement was very
contradictory and vague. It did not provide for how impact
fees would be dealt with in terms of a project that was to
be done in phases. There was an issue. There was
correspondence from the previous City Manager that these
could be paid based on phases. That was the other issue
she thought there was some attempt to try to resolve in
addition to the timing.
Councilwoman Rogers stated that has been resolved so they
just give them an extension for the review of the site
plan. City Attorney Ansay stated they aren’t going to
offer to pay for boat slips and they aren’t going to offer
to pay on the impact fee schedule the City has set up if
they don’t get the extension. Councilwoman Rogers
suggested they put everything back to a level playing
field. Do what initially you have now interpreted this
agreement said without what you are planning to do with the
impact fees now regarding the boat slips. They have that
interpretation. It doesn’t need to be an amendment. Just
say that that is now clearly understood, give him a six-
month extension on the site plan approval and in six months
they will be back there and they won’t have to deal with a
lawsuit coming against the City. It appears there are some
Council people that are going to vote in favor of the
amendments because of a lawsuit and what she is saying is
they can run the deed out right now.
Mr. Donaghy respectfully disagreed. They had a number of
issues. They went through this whole discussion the last
time they were here. They had significant issues over the
ownership of the slips and the impact that not reviewing
their plans had on them and their financing. It is not
that easy to just give them a six-month extension. He
feels they made some significant concessions regarding
payment for the slips, which is almost a quarter of a
million dollars a year if they hopefully get what they are
looking for. He thinks they have gotten a little awry
here. He feels this is still the best thing for the City.
If they don’t go forward, forget the lawsuits where they
would have to sue to protect their rights and their rights
to the slips. If this PUD is not approved, other
developers who are successors in interest would develop
whatever they wanted down on the waterfront. This is still
a project that is going forward. They are trying to get a
Page 35 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
commercial marina facility that is open to the whole City.
He thinks that is what the City should focus on. He thinks
that is what the City should focus on. If they don’t have
this they won’t have a PUD agreement and they will be
further from where they are here and a
successor/developer/owner may not want to put something
down there for the benefit of the citizens of Edgewater.
He feels it makes sense to go forward with this one. The
Council directed them to work their differences out and he
feels they made an honest, sincere attempt to do that.
They reconciled everything they had on the table and
everything the City had on the table and they would like to
move forward on this. They don’t want to litigate this
matter.
Councilwoman Rogers stated her biggest concern is the
three-year extension. They would be looking at 2010 and
then when are they going to receive the money.
Councilman Vincenzi asked how the 300 dry dock slips equate
to boat slips on the river. City Attorney Ansay explained
the Manatee Protection Plan defines what constitutes a
slip. Through the Manatee Protection Plan they not only
define a dry-stack storage as a slip, they also define
trailer space where you would actually park a boat trailer.
If you try to put in a launch and put in fifty trailer
parking spaces, those all constitute slips under their
definition. It is very aggressive. This is all geared
toward manatee mortality.
Mayor Thomas commented on asking City Manager Williams,
City Attorney Ansay and Mr. McMillan and his constituent to
sit down and try to hash things out and make compromises.
They did so he can’t see anymore debating. They need to
either take the opinion of their City Attorney and City
Manager, their recommendations, or vote no. He is not real
happy about the project but he likes the smaller stories
better than the tall stories. He doesn’t like giving all
the boat slips up but he questioned the City Attorney in
detail and she informed him they have a very good chance of
winning that because of the previous agreement. He
believes the City Attorney and City Manager went to bat for
them and is making the best agreement for the citizens of
Edgewater.
Mayor Thomas entertained a motion.
Page 36 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Councilwoman Lichter made a motion to approve Amendment #2,
to the Planned Unit Development Agreement (PUD) for
Edgewater Harbor, second by Councilwoman Rhodes
.
The MOTION CARRIED 3-2. Councilwoman Rogers and
Councilwoman Rhodes voted NO
.
st
E.1 Reading, Ord. No. 2007-O-04, Dennis Brinn,
President of Sunshine State Bank, requesting an
amendment to the Official Zoning Map to include
2.08+ acres of land located at 1620 Edgewater
Drive as B-3 (Highway Commercial) (rezoning)
City Attorney Ansay read Ord. 2007-O-04 into the record.
Development Services Director Lear made a staff
presentation.
George Scott
, 3018 S. Peninsula Drive, Daytona Beach,
Director, Sunshine State Bank, was available to answer any
questions.
Mayor Thomas asked for Council comments.
Councilwoman Rhodes felt this would have made a great place
for a City Hall. Councilwoman Rogers felt it would have
been a good place for a church.
Mayor Thomas opened the public hearing.
The following citizens spoke:
Mike Visconti
, 316 Pine Breeze Drive, stated he was very
disappointed. This was the site he chose for a new City
Hall. He congratulated Mr. Brinn for picking a beautiful
site in Edgewater. He is disappointed in Council for not
getting that piece of property so we lost another one.
Mr. Visconti asked if they are ever going to get a City
Hall. Mayor Thomas informed him yes. Councilwoman Lichter
stated she didn’t think it was voted on by the public the
last time they voted.
Mr. Visconti proposed to start a pledge drive for the
citizens of Edgewater to pledge $2 per week, $110 per year.
If his calculation is right, they have about 22,000 people
in Edgewater. At that pledge, they would have a revenue of
Page 37 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
$2,442,000 and they could get a new City Hall. He asked
the Council to think about it and he would be glad to help.
Mayor Thomas stated he still had a plan for City Hall.
Dot Carlson
, 1714 Edgewater Drive, stated she is five
houses away from that property. What is sitting there now
used to be the Settle Wilder Funeral Home. It sits way
back on the hill. She asked how much of that land is going
to be covered in concrete and what access off of Edgewater
Drive. They already can’t get off of Edgewater Drive onto
U.S. #1. She already has a motel on one end of her street
and dead trees. There is no tree on the backside of that
lot yet and these people are going to put another bank.
There are already banks up through there. She doesn’t care
what they put but suggested they do a good traffic pattern.
She asked if they are going to put any trees on the
property.
Mayor Thomas closed the public hearing.
Councilwoman Rhodes moved to approve Ord. 2007-O-04, Dennis
Brinn, President of Sunshine State Bank, requesting an
amendment to the Official Zoning Map to include 2.08+ acres
of land located at 1620 Edgewater Drive as B-3 (Highway
Commercial), second by Councilwoman Lichter
.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0
.
F. Public Hearing, Sunshine State Bank requesting
approval for an off-site sign which is proposed
for property adjacent to and west of the proposed
bank property
Development Services Director Lear made a staff
presentation.
Mr. Scott informed the Council that at their main bank in
Port Orange on Clyde Morris Boulevard they planted 92 palm
trees around the bank not counting all of the other
landscaping.
Mayor Thomas asked for Council Comment. There was none.
Mayor Thomas opened the public hearing.
The following citizen spoke:
Page 38 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Dot Carlson
, 1714 Edgewater Drive, asked if their exit is
coming out onto Eaton. Mr. Lear informed her no they
aren’t proposing to do that. Only one access was decided
upon on Edgewater Drive. She still hasn’t heard any
explanation with what they are going to go with traffic
control there. Mr. Lear stated they have a traffic study
they have to submit to the City to verify that traffic
pattern works.
Mayor Thomas closed the public hearing and entertained a
motion.
Councilwoman Lichter moved to accept the sign, which will
be separated from the bank itself, second by Councilwoman
Rhodes
.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0
.
st
G.1 Reading, Ord. No. 2006-O-37, City of
Edgewater, on behalf of Frank and Donna Morris,
requesting an amendment to the Official Zoning
Map to include 10+ acres of land located north of
Oak Trail, west of 2967 Oak Trail as RT (Rural
Transitional) (rezoning) cont. from 2/5/07, Item
7C
The applicant has requested continuance with no date
certain. This item was withdrawn from the agenda.
st
H.1 Reading, Ord. No. 2006-O-43, Joseph Alison
requesting an amendment to the Official Zoning
Map to include 27.69+ acres of land located south
of Airpark Road, west of Silver Palm Drive as
RPUD (Residential Planned Unit Development) and
approval of the associated RPUD Agreement for
Elegant Manor Estates (rezoning) cont. from
12/4/06, Item 7D
City Attorney Ansay read Ord. 2006-O-43 into the record.
Development Services Director Lear made a staff
presentation.
Mark Watts
, Attorney, Cobb & Cole, 351 E. New York Avenue,
Suite 200, Deland, made a presentation on behalf of the
applicant. He further commented on traffic issues and
Page 39 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
waiting on a traffic study. He feels to continue to hold
it up and to leave it on the table pending the study does a
tremendous disservice to his clients. He asked the Council
not to leave them in limbo. His clients have submitted a
development that is consistent with what they have asked
people to plan for in the City. He asked for Council’s
support and approval of the PUD.
Mayor Thomas opened the public hearing.
Mayor Thomas made a presentation with regard to Turnbull
Hammock due to having walked the property. He would be
willing to support this if they do not fill in the north
borrow pit to leave some extra drainage. They are only
going to lose four lots.
There was a brief discussion regarding the boundaries of
the Hammock area and what divides it. There is a canal
between Silver Palm Drive and the Hammock.
There was a brief discussion regarding who is supposed to
maintain the canal. City Manager Williams didn’t know the
answer. Councilwoman Lichter felt they should look into
who is supposed to maintain that. City Manager Williams
agreed to look into this.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked Mayor Thomas if he wanted the
north borrow pit to remain in addition to any other
retention he is going to be required to have or let him
trade off.
Attorney Watts commented on the existing pond on the south
being expanded in exchange for filling in the one on the
north. The same capacity that is on the north for that
pond is simply being shifted to the pond on the south.
They are doing what he asked keeping the additional
capacity.
Mayor Thomas confirmed they would be expanding the southern
most borrow pit. Attorney Watts confirmed that was
correct. He showed a rendition of the outline of the
existing borrow pit on the south and the outline after it
is enlarged.
Mayor Thomas feels they need to go to extremes to protect
the Turnbull Hammock system.
Page 40 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Mayor Thomas recessed the meeting for five-minutes for City
Clerk Wadsworth to change the CD. The meeting recessed at
10:10 p.m. and reconvened at 10:15 p.m.
Mayor Thomas asked for Council comment. There was none.
Mayor Thomas asked for public comment.
The following citizens spoke:
Pat Card
, 3019 Willow Oak Drive, stated when somebody
stands up there and makes any suggestion at all that they
extend Mission Road through the center of Turnbull Hammock
an ancient, aqueous, hardwood hammock, they had him say
that was a more favorable spot then putting it along Park
Avenue. He feels that is the wrong thinking. If they ever
consider putting it in there, they should attempt to get
these properties by every means possible. Mayor Thomas
stated he would lay his body in front of them.
Attorney Watts stated he is just looking at what corridors
make sense on a map. Personally he thinks using frontage
along I-95, if you have to stay close to a disturbed area
makes a lot more sense. Turnbull Bay Hammock, Spruce Creek
and the Tomoka are outstanding resources they can’t afford
to mess with. He again asked Council not to hold up his
clients’ investment in the property and their plans to move
forward on the basis of what might happen many years down
the road. They asked for Council’s support on this on the
basis of its consistency with the development of the City
and the Comp Plan.
Dot Carlson
, 1714 Edgewater Drive, stated the more houses
you put near the Hammock the more contaminations they will
have running into the Indian River Lagoon.
Mayor Thomas closed the public hearing and entertained a
motion.
Councilman Vincenzi moved to approve Ord. 2006-O-43, Joseph
Alison requesting an amendment to the Official Zoning Map
to include 27.69+ acres of land located south of Airpark
Road, west of Silver Palm Drive as RPUD (Residential
Planned Unit Development) and approval of the associated
RPUD Agreement for Elegant Manor Estates (rezoning), second
by Councilwoman Rogers
.
Page 41 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0
.
I. Res. No. 2007-R-03, ratifying the results of the
November 7, 2006 General Election
City Attorney Ansay read Res. 2007-R-03 into the record.
Mayor Thomas entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Rhodes moved to approve Res. 2007-R-03,
ratifying the results of the November 7, 2006 General
Election, second by Councilman Vincenzi
.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0
.
8. BOARD APPOINTMENTS
A.Planning & Zoning – nomination by Councilwoman
Rhodes to fill a seat vacated by Dan Grisell who
has moved outside the City limits
Councilwoman Rhodes nominated Gigi Bennington, second by
Councilman Vincenzi
.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0
.
B.Recreation/Cultural Services – nomination by
Councilwoman Lichter to fill a seat due to an
expired term
Councilwoman Lichter nominated Debra Sopko, second by
Councilwoman Rhodes
.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0
.
9. OTHER BUSINESS
A.Property Purchase – discussion on request by the
Edgewater Public Library for the City to purchase
property adjacent to the library (presentation by
Library Board Chairman Jean Haughwout on 1/8/07)
City Manager Williams made a staff presentation. Jean
th
Haughwout appeared before the Council on January 8
identifying this property as an option to purchase for
potential expansion of the library property. After
concluding the presentation the City and seller agreed to
Page 42 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
split the appraisal cost. The appraisal came back at
$158,000. He commented on what is included in the
contract. They anticipate demolishing the property at an
estimated cost of about $10,000. The total cost for
purchase and demo is $199,000. He commented on Council
direction for Mayor Thomas and himself to go back and hold
some additional conversations with the seller to try to
negotiate the price to the appraised value. They met with
Mr. and Mrs. Tomazin and had a very good discussion however
the contract price remains today as it was when it
originally appeared before Council at $189,000. He briefly
commented on three potential funding sources that were also
th
identified at the January 8 meeting to include freezing
police officer positions and vacant firefighter positions,
the shuffleboard courts, and shell and property in
ParkTowne.
City Manager Williams commented on an email from Butch
McCracken from McCracken Enterprises that has requested to
purchase the remaining shell, which is between 18,000 and
20,000 cubic yards at $3 per foot.
City Manager Williams commented on appropriations that were
made in this current budget for debt to construct Base Leg
Drive and a portion of Rowan Way to provide access across
the drainage canal along ParkTowne Blvd. He again
commented on the offer from McCracken Enterprises to
purchase the remaining shell at an estimated cost of
$60,000. Rather than exercising that option, staff
suggested they exchange shell and property for the
construction of the concrete span to provide the access
across the stormwater canal. Construction costs will be
determined from an issuance of an RFP that they are
planning to do. Upon pursuing the debt for the
construction of Base Leg Drive, they obtain additional
funds to look at the purchase of this property if the
Council so desires. He asked for Council direction.
Councilwoman Lichter stated they are talking about
purchasing property for the library and that price is over
the appraised price by $31,000. City Manager Williams
confirmed that has not changed. All they are suggesting at
this point is that they do some exchanging of assets within
the ParkTowne property. Mr. McCracken has expressed his
interest in doing so. Obviously they will have to go
through the RFP process and then they will pursue debt
issuance on the construction of Base Leg Drive of which
Page 43 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
they have a contractual obligation for. In pursuing that
debt issuance, they can look at obtaining additional funds
to purchase the library property if the Council so desires.
Councilwoman Rogers asked if they could just agree that on
Option #2 that they don’t want to deal with taking away the
shuffleboard court money for the purchase of this library.
Councilwoman Rhodes questioned there being a cost for
racquetball courts included in the shuffleboard court
money. City Manager Williams confirmed there was.
Councilwoman Rhodes suggested they take the money out for
the racquetball courts to put towards the library house.
City Manager Williams informed her the estimated cost for
that is roughly $96,000. The City did receive some
insurance proceeds to the tune of about $189,000 so that
would help eliminate the $200,000 deficit on the cost of
that and that money has gone back into the Fund Balance.
That is why they see the $200,000 impact is borne in the
General Fund. They have not bid this project yet. They
can’t tell them for certain that there is an adequate
amount of funds to continue to do the shuffleboard courts
at this point in time. They still have the right to
petition FEMA to increase the project worksheet to
accommodate any additional funds above and beyond what they
have already pledged. They are ready to go ahead and move
forward with the project and bidding but they still have to
determine the cost. That item will be back before Council
awarding it to a contractor at some point in the future.
Councilwoman Lichter asked what that had to do with three
police officers. City Manager Williams explained he
understands option two is now off the board. Option 3
involves some assets in ParkTowne, doing an exchange. They
have a property owner that is doing a $12 million project
out there right now that said he could accommodate but they
have to bid that portion of it.
Councilwoman Rhodes asked if they could do all three
things, the road, the house and the shuffleboard court.
Councilwoman Rogers stated they didn’t know about the
shuffleboard until the RFP comes back. City Manager
Williams stated they have to get the construction cost.
They also will be doing an RFP on the construction of Base
Leg Drive. They have some unknowns they have to get
answered but they believe this is one of the better options
out there. Councilwoman Rhodes stated they have budgeted
Page 44 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
for the shuffleboard court. City Manager Williams stated
as he understood Council that option is off the board at
this point but they still have to bid the project. They
built the budget based off of estimated costs and it may
come in where there is an impact of $300,000 or $400,000 to
the General Fund and that item will be back before Council.
Councilwoman Rogers felt they needed to decide if they were
going to buy the property or not. She felt absolutely not.
Contract price $189,000, appraised value $158,000. No, not
in this market.
Councilman Vincenzi stated he was going to say something
similar but Councilwoman Rogers said it better. If the
appraised value is $158,000, why are they asking $189,000.
Because they know the City can reach into their pockets and
pay it and he feels that isn’t right. He would love to buy
that piece of property and the one next to it for library
expansion but not at the cost of being robbed.
Councilwoman Rogers stated greedy. Councilman Vincenzi
stated they know the City has more than an individual would
have. If an individual went to buy that property for
$189,000 and an appraisal came back at $158,000, no bank in
the world would lend you that money.
Councilwoman Rhodes questioned the value by sales
comparison being $194,000. City Manager Williams informed
her that was an old contract from the original drive by.
Mayor Thomas asked if they could buy that house in Florida
Shores for $189,000. He feels it is something they can’t
pass up. In the future, it is going to go up in price.
Even though they don’t have the money and they were forced
to rob Peter to pay Paul. He doesn’t know how City Manager
Williams sleeps at night. He is thinking about what the
Council wants all the time. He took him hunting and he was
talking about City business the whole time. He is
constantly working for the citizens of Edgewater and how to
please everybody.
Councilwoman Rhodes had a problem with the price. Mayor
Thomas informed her they wouldn’t come down on the price.
Councilwoman Lichter felt it couldn’t be held up but there
is probably another way to do it. Mayor Thomas informed
her they could make another offer. He wasn’t sure if they
would accept it or not.
Page 45 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Ruth McCormack, Librarian, Edgewater Library, stated the
property is of greater value to them and the City then it
would be to the average homeowner. Because they are
adjacent they could utilize it far more fully than anybody
else could for the purposes they would wind up using it
for. The second homeowner has agreed in the future that he
will give them right of first refusal on the other little
piece of the corner. In all likelihood if they secure the
first, eventually they will secure the second and then they
vacate the road and they have a lot more property then they
would buying a different site some place else. You know
the price is only going to go up. It is going to go up for
any piece of property they choose. If they wait two, three
or five more years then it will be more. On the night they
gave the first presentation, everybody voted unanimously to
stand behind them and it was a wonderful thing. She stated
Councilwoman Rogers said they didn’t want to let this one
slip through their hands like they did the corner of U.s.
#1 and Indian River Boulevard. That is what will happen
here if they don’t act on it. They won’t wind up getting
it. Eventually the library will move some place else and
they will no longer have the perfect location in a
residential area that you can get to so easily by foot,
bike and road. It is more valuable to them and they know
that but any situation like this where a municipality was
planning on locking some pieces together, you are going to
expect to pay a little more than the appraised value. She
knows City Manager Williams has been locked in this because
the owners have been to every meeting except tonight so he
hasn’t been able to say what can be offered. It is a
public venue so it has been sort of can’t you lower the
price a little. They did come down from $200,000 so they
did lower it a little. They may still lower the price some
more. She impressed upon the Council how valuable it is in
conjunction with the other property that is already in the
library holdings.
Mayor Thomas asked for public comment.
The following citizens spoke:
Carol Ann Stoughton
, 2740 Evergreen Drive, stated the
people have a right to ask what they want for their
property irregardless of their appraisal. They have to go
somewhere. The houses in Edgewater start at $175,000. The
man at the end of the street wants $300,000. Even if they
Page 46 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
paid $160,000 here, the man at the end, and Mr. Williams is
aware that he was kicked off the man’s property because the
man said he wouldn’t sell it unless he got $300,000. Then
they have $200,000 to the lot to the east. They are
talking about $700,000. She isn’t against the library but
she is against spending what they don’t have. Library
cards have gone up to $5 a piece. She hopes in the future
they would try to petition the County, if they don’t want
to give them money and they are cutting back what services
are they giving them. It is called the Volusia County
Library. She feels they should go back and say they are
cutting money from them and say they want to cut money from
them and go on a Federal or State level. She suggested
they think about that in the future.
David Ross
, 2803 Needle Palm Drive, asked the appraised
value of the Library and the property it is on. It is
prime commercial property. He suggested they sell it and
find another location for the library to do what they want
to do in one location rather than piecemealing a package
together. Just a thought.
Mike Stull
, 1401 S. Ridgewood Ave, Suite 5, stated he owns
the property to the east of the library and he has never
been contacted about anyone purchasing his property. His
property is about 31,200 square feet. That property is
about 25,000 square feet. If you don’t have a contract up
front with the owner at the end of Banyan Tree Drive, of
course he is going to want $300,000.
Councilman Vincenzi asked Mr. Stull the asking price for
his property. Mr. Stull informed him $465,000 but it is
zoned commercial, it is ready to go, it is a larger lot,
you can vacate Alamanda in between and have another 60-foot
right-of-way. Alamanda could be ran down to Banyan Tree
Drive and connected with Edgewater Drive. He again stated
nobody has ever contacted him to negotiate anything about
it. Even to ask if he would lower the price. He would
even be willing to hold a note on part of the property to
help the City out.
Councilman Vincenzi commented on struggling to find
$200,000. To find $450,000 or $460,000 would be a lot more
difficult. He suggested Mr. Stull contact City Manager
Williams. He informed Mr. Stull some of the consideration
is money and where to get it from. Mr. Stull stated that
is why he said he would be willing to hold a note.
Page 47 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Councilman Vincenzi pointed out no matter who finances it,
it is still increasing debt. Mr. Stull stated if they buy
the house they are proposing to buy now, they are still
going to have to buy the house at the end of Banyan.
Councilwoman Rhodes felt Mr. Stull had a good point.
Councilwoman Rogers stated and there is no house on it so
they wouldn’t have to demolition anything.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated that is something they might
want to investigate. Councilwoman Rogers stated especially
since they are thinking about City Hall with the Library on
top. She felt he had a point.
Ferd Heeb
, 115 N. Riverside Drive, asked City Attorney
Ansay from a fiduciary point of view, can the City pay 25%
more than the appraised value for property. City Attorney
Ansay informed him yes. From a legal standpoint you can
because it is under $500,000. There are requirements once
you get over $500,000 for paying more than appraisal, it
requires a heightened vote, four out of five voting in
favor of it.
Jean Haughwout
, Chairwoman, Edgewater Library Board, stated
when they were talking about all of these properties, Mr.
Stull’s property was one of the properties where
information was given to the Council. It was in the packet
with the two houses. With no money, it was difficult to
work on that particular property. They asked to do the
first house because they knew that funds were limited.
This property is on high elevation and a lot of fill dirt
could be sold after the house is raised. They feel it is
an excellent site and for them to look for another site is
ridiculous. They have prime property there. Why would you
want to sell prime property? The City owns the building,
not the County. The County staffs the property. They
really don’t want the County involved in this.
Councilwoman Lichter stated in the beginning the library
was built by funds raised by citizens and the property is
City property. Ms. Haughwout confirmed that was correct.
Councilwoman Lichter asked Ms. Haughwout if she had
mentioned something along the lines about fundraisers and
raising money. She is thinking about the difference with
what they should pay and what would be possible to be
raised.
Page 48 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Ms. McCormack stated where the grants come in is when you
are actually doing the construction project. The State of
Florida does matching grants for the construction of
libraries. Fundraising is where the Friends of the Library
have committed to doing a building project fundraiser to
raise the local money rather than asking for it. That is
what they did the last time. They raised all of what was
needed locally so they could get the matching grants from
the State. This is really the same thing as last time. The
City purchased the property and the local support
organization, the Friends, raised the construction money
for the matching grant and the State gave them the rest.
Councilwoman Lichter stated if the land is owned by the
City and the building was built by local people, what is
the County’s function with staff and service. Ms.
McCormack informed her the County provides all of the
staffing. They maintain the building. They maintain the
grounds. They provide all the materials, the collection
equipment. They pay all of their bills as far as
utilities. Councilwoman Lichter asked Ms. McCormack if she
thought they would do that with a larger building. Ms.
McCormack informed her absolutely. Ms. McCormack stated to
her knowledge they have never declined when a community has
spoken by raising that local money, they have never
declined to expand their obligation.
Councilwoman Lichter asked about making them an offer.
City Manager Williams informed her the direction he got
from Council was to go back and offer them the appraised
value. They said no and countered back at $189,000. If it
is Council’s intention to make them an offer, he asked them
to inform him what they would like him to offer them and he
would do that.
Councilwoman Rhodes commented on having to do this in a
public meeting and being bound by the Sunshine Law.
Councilwoman Lichter asked City Attorney Ansay if they are.
She questioned negotiation of a business deal having to be
done in public.
Mayor Thomas stated he gave his word to Mr. and Mrs.
Tomazin that they would have a decision tonight.
Councilwoman Rhodes informed Mayor Thomas maybe he
shouldn’t have said something. Councilwoman Rogers stated
the only decision could have been their price. City
Page 49 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Manager Williams stated he could obtain a consensus by
phone after speaking with each Councilmember individually.
Mayor Thomas stated he had no problem with making an offer
between $158,000 and $189,000, which would be a decision
that would be up to them. That would be all right with
him.
Councilwoman Rhodes suggested investigating Mr. Stull’s
property. She feels a little competition doesn’t hurt.
She suggested investigating Mr. Stull’s property and then
make a decision on this. That might be the better deal,
even though it is more money.
Mayor Thomas feels if there is more property and they don’t
have to do any demolition, sure it is. Councilwoman Rhodes
stated but once that property is appraised, that may be way
over priced as well. Mayor Thomas stated from what he
understood, he gave him a price. Councilwoman Rhodes
stated they would still have to have it appraised to make
sure that property is in line. Maybe that will turn out to
be the better option.
Mayor Thomas felt they weren’t taking into realization the
adjacency of the property. He spoke about when he
purchased two lots next to his property when he paid almost
double for the two lots.
City Manager Williams asked if it was Council’s intention
to buy the surrounding properties. Obviously they are
prime properties and if you bundle it together it makes
this whole effort much more appealing. He thought one of
the things they identified when they originally purchased
this that if it wasn’t Council’s intention to secure the
other parcels around it, this property really would not
benefit them that greatly. They also talked about
expanding that facility to include City Hall. They sent
that out and had the engineers take a look at it and the
conclusion was they could probably do it but from a cost
basis, you would be better off tearing everything down and
starting over and going up. They have the 35-foot height
issue that they would have to deal with as well.
Mayor Thomas stated they needed to make a decision and
entertained a motion.
Page 50 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Fred Pelletier
, 1801 Kumquat Drive, stated once you commit
yourself, when you know you need three lots to do what you
really want to do, it doesn’t make sense to start with one
lot at a lower price and because of supply and demand have
to pay more for additional property to complete the
project. If you don’t have the money for the one hundred
and something thousand, where are they going to get the
money for the $300,000 and $400,000?
Councilman Vincenzi felt the right thing to do would be to
put it off one more time and investigate the other options,
such as Mr. Stull’s property. Mayor Thomas stated they
needed to either turn it down or approve it because he gave
Mr. and Mrs. Tomazin his word. Councilwoman Rogers stated
then it would have to be turned down because they aren’t
willing to pay $189,000.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated she absolutely supported this.
This is a buyer’s market. She thinks they can get this
house for less. If they can’t they need to look in another
direction. This goes against everything inside of her.
She will support an expansion of the library but she isn’t
going to do it at the expense of the taxpayers. She felt
City Manager Williams needed to tell them no unless they
are willing to come down on the price. If this doesn’t
work out, something else will.
Mr. Stull stated his lot is 20% larger than both of those
lots put together. Eighty percent of the $475,000 comes to
$372,000, which would be a discount per square foot.
Councilwoman Lichter felt they were going to have to say
no.
Mayor Thomas entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Rhodes made a motion to say no to this
property unless the property owner is willing to accept the
appraised price and that City Manager Williams should
investigate Mr. Stull’s property, second by Councilwoman
Rogers
.
Mayor Thomas confirmed Councilwoman Rhodes motion to be
that they want to turn down and investigate Mr. Stull’s
property. Councilwoman Rhodes stated unless the Tomazin’s
are willing to come down to the appraised price they should
say no to them and investigate Mr. Stull’s property.
Page 51 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0
.
Councilwoman Lichter would like to look at the total deal.
She feels they need to know what they are talking about in
the end result.
Ms. Haughwout asked what they are going to do about the
third property. They have one property they said no to and
now they are going to wait for him but what about the third
property. Mayor Thomas asked if they have talked to the
other property owner on Banyan Tree. City Manager Williams
stated he has not had any conversation with that property
owner. Ms. Haughwout stated she has had conversation with
him but there was no money so they didn’t go any further.
City Manager Williams stated maybe they could address it
with the Professional Services, Item 9B.
B.Professional Services – staff recommending
approval of an Engagement Letter with Beth
Rawlins, Inc. to provide professional campaign
and communication services at an amount not to
exceed $15,000
City Manager Williams made a staff presentation.
Councilman Vincenzi confirmed this would be an engagement
with this person where she would design some kind of
information gathering campaign that would tell them whether
it is feasible to move ahead with any type of ballot
initiative that would discuss the items that were
mentioned. City Manager Williams stated right, regarding
whether or not it is time to ask the electorate.
Councilman Vincenzi stated she would not be soliciting
support for it. She would just be finding out public
attitude about these things. City Manager Williams stated
that would be stage one. Stage two is if it is time, then
they can draft an educational campaign to help educate our
electorate on the benefits of the proposed initiatives the
City may take at that point. She has most recently helped
the cities against consolidated government defeat the
Volusia County Charter Amendments as well as helping Port
Orange with their public safety facilities and a number of
other governmental entities throughout the State.
Councilman Vincenzi asked if they would have input as to
the process and tools she develops before any surveys are
Page 52 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
implemented. City Manager Williams stated if they so
request. Councilman Vincenzi stated he would like to. Not
necessarily tell her what to do but to see what she is
going to do before she does it.
City Manager Williams stated they could present that
information. They are targeting a source of funds for
approving this expenditure as the excess funds from RCC
that were returned to the City to the tune of $80,582.
Mayor Thomas stated thanks to him and City Manager
Williams. City Manager Williams suggested and Mayor Thomas
begged them.
Mayor Thomas entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Rogers stated this is not a budgeted item. He
just indicated a source of where this could be paid from.
Any extra money this City receives should go towards a City
Hall reserve. Something such as this, professional
services, she believes if they have these questions they
could ask the attorney and at the same time they don’t have
extra money coming down the pike. As a matter of fact they
are going to have a shortage of revenue. The City wants
this but this is one of those insatiable desires. They
can’t afford it right now and they should not do it. What
happens if the people come back and say the City can buy
the property for $158,000? They just basically said if
they do come back, they would buy it. Then they are going
to need to find money to buy it. She again stated no, they
don’t have the money. Any extra source of money needs to
be allocated to City Hall.
Councilwoman Lichter asked about capital expenses as large
as a City Hall or a Police Administration Building or a
Fire Station. Do they go to the public like they did in
previous years or does the Council make that decision?
City Manager Williams informed her they make the decision
to put it on the ballot and ask the public to approve or
disapprove it. Recognizing our needs and the cost and all
the other initiatives that are coming from the State level,
their only option barring a miracle at this point is to ask
the voters to approve something if they intend on achieving
a City Hall within a somewhat reasonable period of time.
If the location is not here and they are going to have to
go out and secure property, they are looking at a $2
million purchase at a minimum, just for the purchase. They
are talking about a $400 per square foot number to
Page 53 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
construct a commercial facility. They are probably looking
at about a $10 million project realistically to build a new
City Hall. Keeping that in mind, if they could somehow
miraculously come up with a million in the budget to
reserve, they are ten years out plus the cost of inflation
they would have to factor in.
Councilwoman Lichter referred to when the YCMA was put on
the ballot and the citizens being asked to list their
priorities of what they wanted and this came out as one of
the priorities.
Councilwoman Rogers stated they have to start somewhere.
They don’t need to ask the citizens if they need to reserve
some money. They only ask the citizens when they are
looking to purchase or build something. They don’t want
things to fall through their hands but that doesn’t mean
they are going to be blind, dumb and stupid and pay more
than what something is appraised for.
Ms. Stoughton asked if they could have public participation
when the Council was done. Mayor Thomas informed her no.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated one of their primary objectives
in their strategic planning was a City Hall as well as
transportation and infrastructure. The whole point of the
vision was to put your resources to make that vision
happen. The things that don’t make that vision happen are
resources they don’t spend. She felt to spend $15,000 to
talk to taxpayers into voting for a City Hall or whatever
maybe not the best thing but anything they have done up
until now has not worked. Maybe this is the first step in
achieving one of their objectives. She feels it is worth a
try.
Councilwoman Lichter felt they don’t even write properly so
the voters understand something they want to put on the
ballot in terms of the 35-foot height limit. What the City
put on as an amendment wasn’t very clear. She asked if
this person helps write that type of thing. City Manager
Williams explained this person helps draft the language and
has drafted a number of very successful ballot questions
addressing a number of situations very similar to these.
Council will have an opportunity to review that work and go
forward.
Mayor Thomas entertained a motion.
Page 54 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Ms. Stoughton stated there is no public. Mayor Thomas
informed her no. Ms. Stoughton asked why. Councilwoman
Rogers stated it is Other Business. Mayor Thomas informed
Ms. Stoughton it was up to him. Mr. Capria stated they had
it under the library. Mayor Thomas informed Mr. Capria it
is up to him.
Mayor Thomas entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Rogers moved not to approve the Professional
Services under Other Business
.
Motion died due to there being a lack of a second
.
Councilwoman Rhodes moved that they accept the Engagement
Letter with Beth Rawlins in hopes that maybe they can get
something jump started, second by Councilman Vincenzi
.
The MOTION CARRIED 4-1. Councilwoman Rogers voted NO
.
C.Professional Services – authorize emergency
expenditure of funds for remediation of air
quality concerns within City Hall, Council
Chambers and Planning Department
City Manager Williams made a staff presentation. He
commented on the recommendations for remediation in the
amount of $44,387.50.
Councilwoman Lichter asked if there are grants for this
type of thing. City Manager Williams informed her there
isn’t a whole lot in the way of grants. Councilwoman
Rogers asked about insurance. City Manager Williams
informed her they are researching that but some policies do
not cover damage of this nature. He commented on some of
the problems they are currently correcting.
Mayor Thomas entertained a motion.
Councilwoman Rhodes moved to approve the emergency
expenditure of funds for remediation of air quality
concerns within City Hall, Council Chambers and Planning
Department at a total cost of $44,387.50, second by
Councilman Vincenzi
.
The MOTION CARRIED 5-0
.
Page 55 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
D.Council Term Limits – Councilman Vincenzi’s
request to discuss having a court issue a
declaratory opinion on Section 3.04 of the Code
of Ordinances as it relates to term limits
Mayor Thomas mentioned Ferd Heeb, who served on the Charter
Review Committee, informing him he would be able to
enlighten the Council.
Ferd Heeb
, 115 N. Riverside Drive, commented on when a
previous Council drafted the referendum, which amended the
Charter to provide for term limits and staggered terms.
The Charter Review Committee’s position was that they did
not trust any citizen of the City of Edgewater to sit on
this Council for more than two years at a time. They
recommended they leave everything the way it was with two-
year terms and no term limits, with one dissenting vote
from the Charter Review Committee. The only way they could
make staggered terms was to go to four-year terms. The
referendum was for November 1999 and was to take effect for
the election in 2001. He spoke of the Charter being
amended in November 1999 and the Council, other than
Councilwoman Lichter, being voted out. He felt that some
of the Council at that time thought they had a life
appointment. Councilwoman Lichter served the first two-
year term, then a four-year term and as far as that Council
was concerned, she got another four-year term. That was
their intention when they drafted that referendum. In his
opinion, she gets another four-year term. If Councilman
Vincenzi had not dropped off and ran for County Council he
would be sitting in the same boat and he guaranteed
Councilman Vincenzi would be looking for another four
years. Councilman Vincenzi informed him he would not. He
wants to do what is right. If a judge says that Charter is
the way he interprets it, which means two complete terms is
for whoever was up there. The two four-year terms or a
two-year term and four-year term. Then that is it. If a
judge says the other opinion is right, he is happy with
that. He feels it is open to discussion and he feels it
needs to be interpreted by someone other than Mr. Heeb or
himself. Mr. Heeb stated he was there and he discussed the
issue with that Council because they didn’t want term
limits. He assured Councilman Vincenzi it was not the
Council’s intention at that time to limit the first group
to six years. Councilman Vincenzi informed Mr. Heeb he
believed him when he says that is what he thinks they
Page 56 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
intended. He requested the minutes/recordings from the
Charter Review Committee and Council meetings during that
time and he didn’t hear or read that. He interprets the
Charter differently.
Councilwoman Rhodes commented on Foley & Lardner issuing an
opinion on this already and they thought that Councilwoman
Lichter could run. She asked City Attorney Ansay her
opinion.
City Attorney Ansay stated she has read the Charter
language and also the memo from the previous City Attorney,
having not benefited from any minutes or recordings, her
reading of the Charter is she thinks there is somewhat of
an ambiguity but if she was to render an opinion she
thought she would agree with Foley & Lardner.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated they have had two attorneys give
the same legal opinion. It only applies this one time in
this one election. They are going to spend $5,000 to get a
judge to give them an opinion when they have two lawyers
that gave an opinion. She feels with it being just this
one time that it would be a waste of taxpayers money. She
also sees a way out of it. If Councilwoman Lichter were to
resign two months before the next election she would sit
out two months and she could still run, assuming she wanted
to. She spoke of if Councilwoman Lichter wanted to run
again, they would be paying $5,000 and not getting any
different results.
Councilman Vincenzi stated a lot of things could happen.
He feels this is the only way to interpret the Charter
properly. Councilwoman Rhodes didn’t see a point in
spending thousands of dollars for this one time.
Councilman Vincenzi stated the first attorney also
quantified his opinion at the end saying a judge may
interpret this differently and that would be the final
decision.
Mr. Heeb stated they have a perfect judge to sell this for
them, the citizens of Edgewater. They are determining
whether Councilwoman Lichter can run again. The citizens
will determine whether she will stay in office.
Councilwoman Lichter commented on many League meetings they
attended and there being very few cities having two years
Page 57 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
because the constant turnover didn’t make for consistency.
The give back was to stagger and have term limits but the
three or four years was really desired by that Council.
Mr. Heeb stated that was the Council’s point of view. The
citizens’ point of view on the Charter Review Committee was
two years. You either do the job or you are out.
Mr. Heeb stated why waste the money. If she runs and the
citizens decide they want to keep her, it is a done deal.
If they decide she has been here too long, they will let
her go and they don’t have to spend the money.
Councilwoman Rhodes stated or maybe she won’t run at all.
Mayor Thomas asked Councilman Vincenzi if he still wanted
to pursue this. Councilman Vincenzi informed him yes.
Someone in the audience asked if they were allowed to ask
questions. Mayor Thomas informed her no and entertained a
motion.
Councilman Vincenzi made a motion that the issue of term
limits as outlined in the City Charter be sent to a court
to issue a declaratory opinion, second by Councilwoman
Rogers
.
The MOTION CARRIED 3-2. Councilwoman Lichter and
Councilwoman Rhodes voted NO
.
Dominic Capria
During the roll call, , 606 Topside Circle,
asked for a point of order. Mayor Thomas informed him he
was interrupting the meeting and told him to sit down.
Dominic Capria
, 606 Topside Circle, stated it is his
opinion that Councilwoman Lichter is not entitled to vote
on this issue because it involves District 4.
City Clerk Wadsworth asked City Attorney Ansay if she knew
how long the time frame is for this to go to court and if
it would interfere with her qualifying. City Attorney
Ansay informed her they could do it as quickly as they can
and get it moved along as quickly as they can. She felt
judges are pretty good about ruling on things they know are
precursors to an upcoming election.
10. OFFICER REPORTS
Page 58 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
A. City Clerk Wadsworth had nothing at this time.
B. City Attorney Ansay had nothing at this time.
C. City Manager Williams
City Manager Williams commented on the creation of a
Citizens Task Force. He wanted to know if Council was
interested in creating a Citizens Task Force to look at and
assist the City with addressing the potential impacts of
this property tax reform with the intention of developing
that into a budgetary committee that works with them going
through the process. He felt it would be very beneficial
to the City.
Councilman Vincenzi wasn’t opposed to it. He would like to
see not just the same faces and would like other opinions.
City Manager Williams explained his intention is to try and
get a very diverse group of individuals.
City Manager Williams commented on the press release he
provided to Council which outlines the establishment of
call boxes at Fire Station 55, Fire Station 57 and the
substation that is going to be open at the Whistle Stop
Ballpark.
City Manager Williams then commented on the memo he
provided to Council from the Fire Chief referencing the
questions that were brought up by Jeff Marris regarding the
SAFER Grant. He asked Council to provide him with some
feedback.
City Manager Williams then stated during the Town Hall
Meeting he made a comment that for a number of years the ad
valorem tax collections did not cover the police and fire
expenditures. He commented on the spreadsheet he provided
to Council, which covers 1999-2006.
City Manager Williams commented on the report for the
Strategic Planning Process from the University of Central
Florida. He spoke of adopting an official vision statement
if Council desires for the City. He commented on the goals
identified by the Council at the Strategic Planning
Process. They have sent that out to staff and each
director will develop goal statements for the goals that
Page 59 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
have been identified for the Council. They are doing this
from a team perspective. They will bring this back to
Council for official adoption in the form of a resolution.
1) Tentative Agenda Items
There were no Tentative Agenda Items to be discussed at
this time.
11. CITIZEN COMMENTS
The following citizen spoke:
Trish Whitaker
, 3124 Pine Tree Drive, asked how they are
basing the term limits. Were they considering the two-year
terms half terms because even by that standard Councilwoman
Lichter is over.
Councilman Vincenzi stated he thought it started in 2001.
Ms. Whitaker stated she has read the Charter thirty times
and she keeps coming up with the same thing.
Carol Ann Stoughton, 2740 Evergreen Drive, stated she
learned at one of the meetings that Councilwoman Rogers
held that there is a porno shop trying to come into
Edgewater. She wants to seriously consider starting
something that would make these people go away before they
even apply. It does not bring upon a lawsuit if you try to
get the churches involved to try to stop this before it
gets out of hand.
Councilwoman Rogers stated what was brought to her
attention was a possible adult store to be brought to the
City. She requested that the City Manager pull the
ordinance and they will be bringing this up. They have to
do this in such a way that it doesn’t come across as an
emergency ordinance. They have to do it as routine so the
City can be protected so if they do make a change, the
individual or business cannot come in and say they did it
based upon such.
City Manager Williams stated that particular application
has been denied due to his proximity to a school. There
isn’t an issue with that particular establishment right
now.
Page 60 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
Councilwoman Rogers has already started the process inside
quietly to get this looked at.
Ms. Stoughton informed Councilwoman Rogers she knew she
would do that because what she says she will do she does.
Councilwoman Rogers commented on the item having to be
pulled and looked at by the City Attorney.
City Attorney Ansay stated the issue was brought to her
attention today. This is something she had a lot of
experience with in other cities particularly in New Smyrna
each. She spoke of the City’s adult entertainment
ordinance being willfully inadequate. This is a really
complex area of law that is governed by Supreme Court cases
and the First Amendment and they can’t just say they aren’t
allowed. If this is something the City is wanting to
rectify and bring the ordinance up to speed, given that
direction tonight, she will jump on it. It is going to
have to be passed through the normal course of proceedings
and is going to require them getting evidence in the
record. She feels they need to get on it to deal with
issues that may be coming down the line.
Councilwoman Rhodes thought years ago they passed
ordinances. They do have free speech issues so they have
to allow them in their town. She thought they passed
ordinances where they would only allowed to be where they
really wouldn’t want to be in town.
City Attorney Ansay commented on there being two separate
issues. She spoke of there being a whole level of
processes they can put on them to better regulate them that
most cities do that Edgewater currently doesn’t have in the
Code.
City Manager Williams compared New Smyrna’s ordinance to
Edgewater’s ordinance.
City Manager Williams asked each Councilmember to see him
individually before they left so he could discuss an issue
with them.
12. ADJOURNMENT
Page 61 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007
There being no further business to discuss, Councilwoman
Rhodes moved to adjourn. The meeting adjourned at 11:45
p.m.
Minutes submitted by:
Lisa Bloomer
Page 62 of 62
Council Regular Meeting
March 5, 2007